How was it that Rand had so much power in VoG?

[Entreri]

From the Guide:

 

The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor, came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.

 

Unfortunately, it is not the word of the Creator/RJ, but written in PoV of said scholar(s).

 

This is an accurate description of Demandred, Mr. Almost, from Wikipedia.

 

""Almost" is the story of Barid Bel Medar's life. He was born one day after Lews Therin Telamon, almost his age. He was almost as handsome, other than his hawk nose. He was the second most acclaimed man of the Age of Legends, holding high offices and writing books, though not quite as high or successfully as Lews Therin. For this reason he hated Lews Therin with every ounce of himself, more so than Sammael, thinking him a lucky fool. He also once desired Lews Therin's wife, Ilyena."

 

This forgets to mention he is "almost" the height of Moridin = height of Rand.

 

While it does not directly mention that Demandred is "almost" as strong in the Power as LTT, I would say it is very likely, since he is "almost" in everything else one can think of. This kind of insane jealousy does not come about when one is somewhat far off from another's capabilities, "close" to LTT strength.

 

Demandred PoV: LTT was brillaint....although not as brilliant (as Demandred), during the Cleansing. If they had IQ test back then, Demandred maybe 1 IQ point behind LTT :)

 

 

To kill Ishamael, Rand needed Callandor...and Ishamael tried to convert the DR most of the time...Aginor killed himself at the EoTW. Throughout the books, Rand has gotten stronger in the Power, men grow by leaps.

 

He first beats the weakest male, Asmodean, then he fought Rahvin, then Sammael (likely Sammael >= Rahvin, given Rahvin's comment that Sammael or he would "overwhelm" Lanfear, and Sammael being among the top 6 Chosen). Who is a left over original? Demandred.

 

Keep in mind that Aginor had no desire to rile up Demandred and in meetings, aside from Ishamael, Demandred stands out as #2. Mr. Almost again.

It was presumed by Rahvin(FOH encounter) that Demandred would take up Ishamael's mantle.

 

Rand felt Aginor/Dashiva strength as "almost". But did Rand gain is full strength then and there is the impact of Dragonmount enlightenment.

 

Given this, I would say it is very likely that Demandred is the 2nd strongest Chosen or at least tied to Aginor in strength.

 

There were many Chosen in AoL, so it is unlikely they were the 13 strongest males and females. Although Ishamael was as strong as a man can get, Lanfear for a woman...and the likes of Demandred, Agnior (99,98?) were probably next in line, even in AoL.

[Elan Tedronai]

to be honest, this whole thing about strength and skill is kinda worthless. i never took any of jordan's explanation about strength levels seriously.

 

when the two most powerful forsaken failed completely to kill an unlearned shepherder in first 3 books it started to dawn on me.

[Entreri]

to be honest, this whole thing about strength and skill is kinda worthless. i never took any of jordan's explanation about strength levels seriously.

 

when the two most powerful forsaken failed completely to kill a shepherder in first 3 books it started to dawn on me.

 

yes, it is definitely a stretch, even with LTT's memory leaks and ta'avern affect

 

it is fiction, but i would say that since RJ has a degree in physicst, that he tries to keep the series logical and consistent than normal fantasy writers

 

anyway, even in the real world there are major upsets

[Elan Tedronai]

to be honest, this whole thing about strength and skill is kinda worthless. i never took any of jordan's explanation about strength levels seriously.

 

when the two most powerful forsaken failed completely to kill a shepherder in first 3 books it started to dawn on me.

 

yes, it is definitely a stretch, even with LTT's memory leaks and ta'avern affect

 

it is fiction, but i would say that since RJ has a degree in physicst, that he tries to keep the series logical and consistent than normal fantasy writers

 

anyway, even in the real world there are major upsets

 

 

it's funny but AOL with it's utopian made rules sounds more realistic with it's power levels. I can picture the standing LTT has has amongst his peers, the jealousy of barid bel maidar and tel janin aellinsar. I can picture the rioting when Elan morin tedronai announced that he's for the shadow now. That standing and power levels of these guys are realistic.

 

But the current randland age is way off. way off. I mean i am one of egwene's greatest fans here on this site. But there is no way she should have beaten mesaana.

[Guest PiotrekS]

to be honest, this whole thing about strength and skill is kinda worthless. i never took any of jordan's explanation about strength levels seriously.

 

when the two most powerful forsaken failed completely to kill a shepherder in first 3 books it started to dawn on me.

 

yes, it is definitely a stretch, even with LTT's memory leaks and ta'avern affect

 

it is fiction, but i would say that since RJ has a degree in physicst, that he tries to keep the series logical and consistent than normal fantasy writers

 

anyway, even in the real world there are major upsets

 

 

it's funny but AOL with it's utopian made rules sounds more realistic with it's power levels. I can picture the standing LTT has has amongst his peers, the jealousy of barid bel maidar and tel janin aellinsar. I can picture the rioting when Elan morin tedronai announced that he's for the shadow now. That standing and power levels of these guys are realistic.

 

But the current randland age is way off. way off. I mean i am one of egwene's greatest fans here on this site. But there is no way she should have beaten mesaana.

 

Egwene beat Mesaana because the fight took place in TAR - one and only place where Egwene was as strong as anybody (leaving Perrin/wolves aside). Allowing Egwene to pick the place of the fight was Mesaana's undoing - but I admit I can't really stand their duel of wills ("I'm the White Tower!You're an insect! Buahahahaha!Mind crush.)

[WhiskyJack]

Demandred was never mentioned almost LTT in "power, "strength" or whatever the hell you wanna define, Kael. People just take it for granted. No one has ever made any observation about Demandred's strength in OP. Comment about his "skill" is connected to whatever he did before life...Only thing we are told about forsaken (none of which is credible) that they were strongest in OP. Still the fact that Ishmael/Agnior, two known forsaken and probably the strongest out of 13 well less famous than Demandred says a lot of "strength" as tool for success. We don't know anything about forsaken who died and there is no reason to believe that few men were stronger than Demandred. Hell what about the men on light side. DO we know their strength? 113 men who followed LTT were considered quite powerful.

People have obsession to link success and "skill" with power.

 

Why do you think Aginor was OP strong (relative to other forsaken)? Did RJ say so? Because I only remember him bragging about himself, and I'd guess that's the least reliable source. Then he blew himself up while Rand seemed to have no issue sucking through all the power of the eye. So we see he's no LTT by any means.

 

Other that that, I agree we have no idea how they rank. Since as I suggest the shadow isn't going to dump it's top general just because some scrub might have been born with a sliver more power.

 

Perhaps. We have no true way of knowing but we know for fact that "strength in power" doesn't mean much as for as one's success in life is concerned. LTT was strongest in OP and yet that man cannot heal even a chicken. He cannot create an item of power. Talent was recognized in AoL, not raw power. Aginor was a scientist, Graendal and Semirhage healer, Ishy philosopher...Their strength in one power were not directly related to their field of work.. That's why many forsaken had no third name. So if someone was very famous or successful doesn't mean he/she was very strong in OP...There is no mention of Demandred's strength and unless in next book I hear anything new, I am not going to believe that he was almost LTT in power. AoL didn't give that much value to raw strength as Randlanders do.

[Entreri]

- Ishamael

- Demandred / Aginor

- Sammael

- Rahvin

- Be’lal / Aran’gar

- Asmodean

 

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/04/male-forsaken-and-their-strength-in.html

 

I generally agree with this male ranking, although it is much tougher to say that Bel'lal and Aran'gar is of the same level. Exact level of Demandred's strength we will have to RAFO.

 

 

 

Female strength, I would say that Alivia > Cyndane, possibly Alivia = Lanfear. Alivia is "considerably stronger" (much stronger) than Nyaneve (who is slightly stronger than Semirhage). Nyaneve was astounded by Alivia's Power and still intimidated by her...however she goes after Messana in TAR without any hestiation. "Maybe some of the Forsaken topped Alivia, surely no one else".

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

[WhiskyJack]

tGH:

Her voice droned on hypnotically, but Egwene no longer really heard; she had done this exercise before, with Moiraine. It was slow, but Moiraine had said it would come more quickly with practice. Inside herself, she was a rosebud, red petals curled tightly. Yet suddenly there was something else. Light. Light pressing on the petals. Slowly the petals unfolded, turning toward the light, absorbing the light. The rose and the light were one. Egwene and the light were one. She could feel the merest trickle of it seeping through her. She stretched for more, strained for more. . . .

 

 

 

---It seems Eqwene can channel light too.

[XXX]

- Ishamael

- Demandred / Aginor

- Sammael

- Rahvin

- Be’lal / Aran’gar

- Asmodean

 

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/04/male-forsaken-and-their-strength-in.html

 

I generally agree with this male ranking, although it is much tougher to say that Bel'lal and Aran'gar is of the same level. Exact level of Demandred's strength we will have to RAFO.

 

 

 

Female strength, I would say that Alivia > Cyndane, possibly Alivia = Lanfear. Alivia is "considerably stronger" (much stronger) than Nyaneve (who is slightly stronger than Semirhage). Nyaneve was astounded by Alivia's Power and still intimidated by her...however she goes after Messana in TAR without any hestiation. "Maybe some of the Forsaken topped Alivia, surely no one else".

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

Lanfear is the strongest possible female strength so I doubt Alivia is equal to her.

[WhiskyJack]

- Ishamael

- Demandred / Aginor

- Sammael

- Rahvin

- Be’lal / Aran’gar

- Asmodean

 

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/04/male-forsaken-and-their-strength-in.html

 

I generally agree with this male ranking, although it is much tougher to say that Bel'lal and Aran'gar is of the same level. Exact level of Demandred's strength we will have to RAFO.

 

 

 

Female strength, I would say that Alivia > Cyndane, possibly Alivia = Lanfear. Alivia is "considerably stronger" (much stronger) than Nyaneve (who is slightly stronger than Semirhage). Nyaneve was astounded by Alivia's Power and still intimidated by her...however she goes after Messana in TAR without any hestiation. "Maybe some of the Forsaken topped Alivia, surely no one else".

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

Lanfear is the strongest possible female strength so I doubt Alivia is equal to her.

 

 

There is an old "novice" in WT. Isn't she suppose to be stronger than even Alivia, potentially?

[XXX]

No one knows as they have never been compared...AS there thinks she is as strong as can be but AS have never seen Alivia or the forsaken. Ny is the only person who have seen Alivia and then gone back to the tower for her testing and I doubt she saw Sharina.

[Kahsm]

tGH:

Her voice droned on hypnotically, but Egwene no longer really heard; she had done this exercise before, with Moiraine. It was slow, but Moiraine had said it would come more quickly with practice. Inside herself, she was a rosebud, red petals curled tightly. Yet suddenly there was something else. Light. Light pressing on the petals. Slowly the petals unfolded, turning toward the light, absorbing the light. The rose and the light were one. Egwene and the light were one. She could feel the merest trickle of it seeping through her. She stretched for more, strained for more. . . .

 

 

 

---It seems Eqwene can channel light too.

 

hehe, Bravo. Hilarious.

[WhiskyJack]

I like to amuse myself from time to time;)

[XXX]

I doubt Rand could break through 2 shields..if he was that strong he would not be apprehensive of going to the BT. He could just walk in there and trash Taim instead he is worried about getting trapped.

[WhiskyJack]

Seems Rand is channeling light all the time:;)

 

tGH:

 

The core of him floated in emptiness. He could see the light—saidin—even with his eyes closed, feel the warmth of it, surrounding him, surrounding everything, suffusing everything.

 

 

Only thing that links his channeling in tEoTW with one in ToM(IMHO) is absence of influence caused by taint. In first case there was no taint and in second case he channeled without the influence of taint. Even after cleansing of Saidin, he was quite mad till VoG scene.

[Kahsm]

I doubt Rand could break through 2 shields..if he was that strong he would not be apprehensive of going to the BT. He could just walk in there and trash Taim instead he is worried about getting trapped.

 

I wonder if 2 shields is actually stronger than 1. If you're strong enough to break through 1, could you not break through 2 of the same strength? If so, the second shield would be more of a backup in case the first one fell off for some reason.

 

It's like putting 2 doorways in a row. If I can bust down 1, I can bust down the next one too, because they're made and secured with the same strength hardware.

 

If a second shield really does stack right on the first one to reinforce it, It could be better to stack 13 separate shields instead of using 1 strong shield (or 26 instead of 2 in this case).

 

We know that 13 linked women are not as strong as the same 13 individually, there's a loss in total OP handled when you link. But, like men v. women, having more OP makes you more deft in your weaves, so the loss might balance out with more skillfully woven shields.

For Infested Templar, two women linking have slightly less of saidar available to them than the two women would have individually. But it can be used much, much more precisely, and therefore more effectively, than they could manage working merely as partners. The reduction also occurs for men entering a circle. One man in a circle means that only the amount of saidin that he can handle, less the reduction for being in a circle, is available. Men can be much stronger than women in the pure quantity of the Power that they can channel, but on a practical level, women are much more deft in their weaving and that means the strongest possible woman can do just about anything that the strongest possible man could, and to the same degree.

 

Maybe a shield woven by 13 Aes Sedai is like the shield woven by that Kin with the shielding talent, where it's tough instead of hard (flexes instead of shattering). So 13 Aes Sedai not only weave a stronger shield OP wise, but they make a more deftly woven one that is flexible like the one that held Nynaeve despite the kin being weaker in strength. And that could be why no man can break it, even if they're stronger in OP and skill than the whole circle of 13.

[Entreri]

- Ishamael

- Demandred / Aginor

- Sammael

- Rahvin

- Be’lal / Aran’gar

- Asmodean

 

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/04/male-forsaken-and-their-strength-in.html

 

I generally agree with this male ranking, although it is much tougher to say that Bel'lal and Aran'gar is of the same level. Exact level of Demandred's strength we will have to RAFO.

 

 

 

Female strength, I would say that Alivia > Cyndane, possibly Alivia = Lanfear. Alivia is "considerably stronger" (much stronger) than Nyaneve (who is slightly stronger than Semirhage). Nyaneve was astounded by Alivia's Power and still intimidated by her...however she goes after Messana in TAR without any hestiation. "Maybe some of the Forsaken topped Alivia, surely no one else".

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

Lanfear is the strongest possible female strength so I doubt Alivia is equal to her.

 

 

There is an old "novice" in WT. Isn't she suppose to be stronger than even Alivia, potentially?

 

 

Sharina will be "stronger" than Nynaeve.

 

Alivia is considerably (much stronger) than Nyaneve. Nynaeve is completely intimidated by her strength, essentially thinks that almost nobody could be stronger except "maybe some of the Forsaken"

[Entreri]

Seems Rand is channeling light all the time:;)

 

tGH:

 

The core of him floated in emptiness. He could see the light—saidin—even with his eyes closed, feel the warmth of it, surrounding him, surrounding everything, suffusing everything.

 

 

Only thing that links his channeling in tEoTW with one in ToM(IMHO) is absence of influence caused by taint. In first case there was no taint and in second case he channeled without the influence of taint. Even after cleansing of Saidin, he was quite mad till VoG scene.

 

 

 

"Light" is capitalized in EoTW in nearly all instances. "The Light warmed the void". The "Light" that Nyaneve saw in his mind, which was absent from Naeff's mind and without a doubt every other Asha'man's mind.

 

So yes, after Dragonmount and his Enlightenment, Rand became Super Rand, Zen Rand, Neo Rand, what have you, able to do impossible things such as the Apples, drive DF's mad etc.

[Entreri]

Just because one can break a shield held by 13 does not mean that one is invulnerable.

 

e.g.

Getting ambushed and knocked out (similar to Elayne).

Male adam trap...he needed the TP to get out of it last time, I doubt he wants to use that again.

Gholam (still 5 left, possilby Ishamael may have one)...he may need to use the TP to kill one.

Shadar Haran could be waiting...would be interesting to see how one stops something like that.

 

That ter'angreal stops anyone from Traveling into the BT or out of it without permission, that alone could be seen as a trap. No doubt the new Rand knows from LTT's memory about that particular ter'angreal.

[WhiskyJack]

Seems Rand is channeling light all the time:;)

 

tGH:

 

The core of him floated in emptiness. He could see the light—saidin—even with his eyes closed, feel the warmth of it, surrounding him, surrounding everything, suffusing everything.

 

 

Only thing that links his channeling in tEoTW with one in ToM(IMHO) is absence of influence caused by taint. In first case there was no taint and in second case he channeled without the influence of taint. Even after cleansing of Saidin, he was quite mad till VoG scene.

 

"Light" is capitalized in EoTW in nearly all instances. "The Light warmed the void". The "Light" that Nyaneve saw in his mind, which was absent from Naeff's mind and without a doubt every other Asha'man's mind.

 

So yes, after Dragonmount and his Enlightenment, Rand became Super Rand, Zen Rand, Neo Rand, what have you, able to do impossible things such as the Apples, drive DF's mad etc.

 

 

 

Capitalized...hmmm...

 

tGH:

Her voice droned on hypnotically, but Egwene no longer really heard; she had done this exercise before, with Moiraine. It was slow, but Moiraine had said it would come more quickly with practice. Inside herself, she was a rosebud, red petals curled tightly. Yet suddenly there was something else. Light. Light pressing on the petals. Slowly the petals unfolded, turning toward the light, absorbing the light. The rose and the light were one. Egwene and the light were one. She could feel the merest trickle of it seeping through her. She stretched for more, strained for more. . . .

 

 

Only 2 capitalized "lights" here. Sorry.

[WhiskyJack]

- Ishamael

- Demandred / Aginor

- Sammael

- Rahvin

- Be’lal / Aran’gar

- Asmodean

 

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/04/male-forsaken-and-their-strength-in.html

 

I generally agree with this male ranking, although it is much tougher to say that Bel'lal and Aran'gar is of the same level. Exact level of Demandred's strength we will have to RAFO.

 

 

 

Female strength, I would say that Alivia > Cyndane, possibly Alivia = Lanfear. Alivia is "considerably stronger" (much stronger) than Nyaneve (who is slightly stronger than Semirhage). Nyaneve was astounded by Alivia's Power and still intimidated by her...however she goes after Messana in TAR without any hestiation. "Maybe some of the Forsaken topped Alivia, surely no one else".

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

Lanfear is the strongest possible female strength so I doubt Alivia is equal to her.

 

 

There is an old "novice" in WT. Isn't she suppose to be stronger than even Alivia, potentially?

 

 

Sharina will be "stronger" than Nynaeve.

 

Alivia is considerably (much stronger) than Nyaneve. Nynaeve is completely intimidated by her strength, essentially thinks that almost nobody could be stronger except "maybe some of the Forsaken"

 

Which is stupid since women are all weak..

[Manscher]

Seems Rand is channeling light all the time:;)

 

tGH:

 

The core of him floated in emptiness. He could see the light—saidin—even with his eyes closed, feel the warmth of it, surrounding him, surrounding everything, suffusing everything.

 

 

Only thing that links his channeling in tEoTW with one in ToM(IMHO) is absence of influence caused by taint. In first case there was no taint and in second case he channeled without the influence of taint. Even after cleansing of Saidin, he was quite mad till VoG scene.

 

 

"Light" is capitalized in EoTW in nearly all instances. "The Light warmed the void". The "Light" that Nyaneve saw in his mind, which was absent from Naeff's mind and without a doubt every other Asha'man's mind.

 

So yes, after Dragonmount and his Enlightenment, Rand became Super Rand, Zen Rand, Neo Rand, what have you, able to do impossible things such as the Apples, drive DF's mad etc.

 

 

 

Capitalized...hmmm...

 

tGH:

Her voice droned on hypnotically, but Egwene no longer really heard; she had done this exercise before, with Moiraine. It was slow, but Moiraine had said it would come more quickly with practice. Inside herself, she was a rosebud, red petals curled tightly. Yet suddenly there was something else. Light. Light pressing on the petals. Slowly the petals unfolded, turning toward the light, absorbing the light. The rose and the light were one. Egwene and the light were one. She could feel the merest trickle of it seeping through her. She stretched for more, strained for more. . . .

 

 

Only 2 capitalized "lights" here. Sorry.

Now that's just silly, both of those lights come after a full stop...

[WhiskyJack]

Seems Rand is channeling light all the time:;)

 

tGH:

 

The core of him floated in emptiness. He could see the light—saidin—even with his eyes closed, feel the warmth of it, surrounding him, surrounding everything, suffusing everything.

 

 

Only thing that links his channeling in tEoTW with one in ToM(IMHO) is absence of influence caused by taint. In first case there was no taint and in second case he channeled without the influence of taint. Even after cleansing of Saidin, he was quite mad till VoG scene.

 

 

"Light" is capitalized in EoTW in nearly all instances. "The Light warmed the void". The "Light" that Nyaneve saw in his mind, which was absent from Naeff's mind and without a doubt every other Asha'man's mind.

 

So yes, after Dragonmount and his Enlightenment, Rand became Super Rand, Zen Rand, Neo Rand, what have you, able to do impossible things such as the Apples, drive DF's mad etc.

 

 

 

Capitalized...hmmm...

 

tGH:

Her voice droned on hypnotically, but Egwene no longer really heard; she had done this exercise before, with Moiraine. It was slow, but Moiraine had said it would come more quickly with practice. Inside herself, she was a rosebud, red petals curled tightly. Yet suddenly there was something else. Light. Light pressing on the petals. Slowly the petals unfolded, turning toward the light, absorbing the light. The rose and the light were one. Egwene and the light were one. She could feel the merest trickle of it seeping through her. She stretched for more, strained for more. . . .

 

 

Only 2 capitalized "lights" here. Sorry.

Now that's just silly, both of those lights come after a full stop...

 

 

Stop being lame. First caps, now after full stop...

 

 

Light pressing on the petals.

[Manscher]

Yes, notice the full stop right before, that is why it's capitalized, notice the light in rest of the sentence is with small, hence it is not the Light, but just light.

[jahnfriederik]

"Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized."

 

Rand has achieved enlightenment. His little drop of water has merged with the great ocean. He has now developed some of the abilities of the Creator such as his ability to regenerate spoiled food. Nynaeve was able to observe some of this when she delved Rand. Also, Naeff observed that he had never seen so many weaves before when Rand was channeling. Therefore I think Rand's new power has nothing to do with Callandor or some other kind of angreal. This new power is just part of Rand's new infinite consciousness. He is able to reach into an 'infinite void' and draw that power into the world. Before, Rand was only able to draw power through the void of Rand al'Thor.

Stop exaggerating! Rand is still a man. I think the points about Maradon were good ... we are increasingly seeing how devastating the OP can be if used with skill.

 

Also the stuff about the apples and the grain .. i think both have something to do with his ta'veren nature. Neither were consciously done, I think, though he expected them .. always before extreme bad luck was balanced by extreme good luck, like when a basket of bread fell and each baguette ended up in a circle tip up (or something along those lines). As Rand got swept into the darkness, the positive "balancing" effects disappeared/faded (I don't have a quote). Then, after Dragonmount, they came back with renewed strength.. The DO's touch killed every single apple on those trees (unlikely); Rand's appearance grew even more (even more unlikely). Later with the grain, the chances that *only* the ones the dockmaster had checked were spoilt were tiny, right? Mathematically? And yet it turned out to be so. Again, my theory is it's some warping of ta'veren..