13x13ing

[Avalonjohn44]

I have some 13x13 related questions for the learned folk of Dragonmount. I can never seem to find what I am looking for in the Team Jordan Q&As or the many RJ interviews:

 

Has the process for 13x13ing channelers to serve the shadow been described?

Is there a 13x13 option for followers of the Light? Could Rand's new ability to intimidate/break darkfriends (like the lord and lady in Marador) be something along the lines of a Light version of 13x13?

[mb]

I asked something similar to that second one long ago in a different thread. I was told there was not a Light-sided equivalent.

 

Channeling through Nym instead of Myrddraal might be one way. Not entirely sure though.

 

 

There has not been any on-screen scene of a channeler being forced to the shadow.

From looking through Encyclopaedia's pages, Towers of Midnight seems to imply off-screen turnings. Mezar and Tarna.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yeah, no known way to turn people back to the Light, although one would think that there could be a discovery. What Rand did, if he did anything other than intimidate them, was different. They were unable to stand in his presence, not actually turn back to the Light.

 

In any case, we havent actually seen a turning, nor do we know the actual method of doing so. But here is what RJ had to say about it.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

[MarkDiLillo]

I'm sure it's one of those things Nynaeve would find a way to heal if it becomes a major plot point in the last book.

[Kaznen]

I personally think Greandal was turned this way. She was the only one of the 13 forsaken whose beliefs and personality did a complete 180.

[Guns of Brixton]

Didn't Rand cut Asmodean off from the Dark One in tSR? Perhaps if Nyanaeave has time later to delve those who were 13x13, maybe she'd find a way to reverse it, like she did when she discovered how to heal taint induced madness.

[enak101]

Heh, interesting. Although no Nym remain. Could it be rediscovered? Surely LTT knew how to create Nym

[Feral]

I personally think Greandal was turned this way. She was the only one of the 13 forsaken whose beliefs and personality did a complete 180.

 

That's something I'd like to be true, but I do't think it is. From what I remember of the way Tarna was described she seemed a bit...not all there? We don't see that with Graendal.

[Edynol]

I don't think Nym were created. They were a race, like humans and ogier. And also, I think it was Lanfear who cut Asmo off from the DO, if I remember right. Though it might have Rand. I'll have to reread it. But that's beside the point. Severing from the DO just removed taint protection, which is not needed any longer. Turning to the DO is a decision made with the soul, except those turned with the power. But that's something to do with the power and can only be undone with the power. If there is a way.

[Avalonjohn44]

Didn't Rand cut Asmodean off from the Dark One in tSR? Perhaps if Nyanaeave has time later to delve those who were 13x13, maybe she'd find a way to reverse it, like she did when she discovered how to heal taint induced madness.

 

Rand cut through the dark one's protection against insanity that Asmodean had, not 'un13x13ed' him... Asmodean was not 13x13ed as far as we know.

 

I do like the idea of healing a 13x13er though.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I don't think Nym were created. They were a race, like humans and ogier. And also, I think it was Lanfear who cut Asmo off from the DO, if I remember right. Though it might have Rand. I'll have to reread it. But that's beside the point. Severing from the DO just removed taint protection, which is not needed any longer. Turning to the DO is a decision made with the soul, except those turned with the power. But that's something to do with the power and can only be undone with the power. If there is a way.

 

1. Nym were constructs like Trollocs were (although not evil)

 

2. It was Rand who cut Asmodean off, Lanfear created a shield so he couldnt channel large amounts of the OP.

 

3. You are right about the protection severing. It may be related to the Do's protection, but it is not the same as 13x13.

[JKN-SW]

Robert Jordan Answers: It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided.

 

Well this certainly implies that there is a way back to the light, with aid. Guess we will have to wait and see if it is a part of AMoL.

[enak101]

How are each trolloc created? Do they breed? Because aginor 'created' trollocs. But did he create millions of them? Does the dark one create them? Just confused because of how many their are.

[Orderofolde]

Yeah, no known way to turn people back to the Light, although one would think that there could be a discovery. What Rand did, if he did anything other than intimidate them, was different. They were unable to stand in his presence, not actually turn back to the Light.

 

In any case, we havent actually seen a turning, nor do we know the actual method of doing so. But here is what RJ had to say about it.

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

Let's just look at Rand prior to Veins of Gold. He was heading down the dark path big time, the final straw was destroying Natrin's Barrow. There will be no channeling to turn a person back to the good side once more, it will be an internal struggle, a little voice telling them "This is not who I am." "I would never have considered killing all thse people a year ago." If they can break through and find their moment of awe and understanding, there you have it. It's what we've seen all over the place, Star Wars with Anakin turning back, though most like Ingtar sacrifice themselves. Writing all the inner monolog of their thoughts and describing their anguish of what they did and the on and on about never being able to make up for it yada-yada most writers don't want to take the time and bookspace so it will be interesting seeing someone aside from Rand come back from the "Dark Side."

 

With all the "You can't do's" RJ wrote then broke, we've seen stilling healed, and we'll see someone bring back the dead as the final victory. RJ was cleverly clear on the good only being suppressed and not stating that a person once turned could not come back. It's unlikely, but we have some strong characters in the books that might make the trip back.

[mb]

How are each trolloc created? Do they breed? Because aginor 'created' trollocs. But did he create millions of them? Does the dark one create them? Just confused because of how many their are.

How were they created? The people took human stock & animal stock and combined the two. The books do not describe the exact process.

Trollocs do breed/procreate.

How many trollocs were created? I do not recall anywhere telling.

The Dark One does not create trollocs nor any of the other Shadowspawn.