Legends Discussion - Lews Therin Telamon

[Talya]

Legends Discussion - Lews Therin Telamon

Only discussions on the above are allowed on this thread.

Points will be given for participation (this means more than one liners and contribute a few times meaningfully.

He was head of the Aes Sedai in the age of Legends, but not much is said of his life and what he did (apart from break the world) This discussion is to talk about any aspect of his life and those around him. Was he a good leader? Was he right in sealing the DO and do something against the Women Aes Sedai, or was he a pigheaded male who thought he could do it without them?

[Locke]

Ah, Lews Therin. He was one of my favorite characters ever since the prologue.

 

In all seriousness, though, I think the most can be learned about him from the prologue:

 

He lived in a huge palace complex. (it seems at least a little isolated, although he doesn't ever go directly outside it and even he could have just destroyed it all )He has many servants and apparently children. He cared about them and his wife deeply. He lived in luxury. He was probably the most powerful man alive and had been, in both personal power and in power over other forces. (at least, on the Light side)

 

It is interesting about his own comment about his attempting to seal the bore when Ishmael gives him lucidity. "Because in his pride he had believed that men could match the Creator, could mend what the Creator had made and they had broken. In his pride he had believed." Obviously, less than proud of his choice. Even so, though, what else could have been done? RJ might know naturally, but I don't think that Lews Therin is any worse for the choice he made. Yes, it had horrible consequences, yet it was successful to an extent. The Dark One was temporarily sealed away. Perhaps when we see what Rand does, we might think of it in a different light, but it's hard to say with what we have.

 

I certainly do wonder what would have happened if the women had assisted him. Would they have succeeded or used a different method? Or would it have just ended with both sides being tainted? (then again, maybe it did. *winks at Talya*)

 

It is interesting though that this occurs at his home. Weren't both he and the Hundred Companions struck instantly insane the moment they touched the bore? So then he must have Traveled back home afterwards while under the taint and also then the events in the Prologue would probably be not too long afterwards.

 

Also, an interesting note: "A river flowed nearby, straight and broad, but he could sense there were no people within a hundred leagues."

[Talya]

Actually that is a good point, how did he get home if it affected them straight away, I need to go back and read some I think. I have the BWB, so may take a look at that. I agree, I think he thought he could do it, and probably not so much because he thought he didn't need the women,. but I feel that he did it out of desperation, because the women were stalling and he probably thought that they didn't have the luxary to take their time over it. Like you said it did work to some extent. I also think that both men and women were required, as they both will be needed at Tarmon Gai'don

[Talya]

But it maybe because there seemed to be times of lucidity that he made his way back to his home only to destroy it, or that subconsciously he just went back there. Who knows! He did kill everyone who was of his blood. as well as anyone he loved. I guess he would have been a fair age too, so he would probably have had grandchildren too, living long years would have meant you could have had quite a few children and grand children, great grandchildren...etc.

[Locke]

Good point...how old did Rand say Lews Therin was? 400 was it?

 

It's hard to learn much from the voice in Rand's head since he's so bipolar and all over the place. Although, come to think of it, didn't Rand say he was the same as Lews Therin except brought up differently? Need to reread ToM. >.>

[Talya]

I can't remember, he certainly ranted a lot when he was in rand's head. I guess he didn't like being in control, or maybe Rand and Lews had to except each other before they could blend and work properly, lol.

 

I wish there was more about the Age of Legends.

 

We do at least know a bit about others relationship to him, so to speak. him and Ishmael for instant and Demandred, and couple of the others, I really need to catch up on it all.

 

It also looks like we are the only two going to get points *grins*

[Christine]

Sorry, I have been meaning to post a response, but every time I tried, I couldn't put my thoughts together! Attempting now again!

 

 

Here is my thing about LTT: Was he full of pride? Yes. The man thought he was as great as the Creator. He did think he was better than the Female Aes Sedai. But, look at it from this angle.

 

Something needed to be done about the Dark One. By sealing him away with the seven seals, he kept the Dark One from running rampant. We have seen time and again that men are stronger in the OP than women. So, why would he take 50 women in the place of 50 men if the men were stronger? Furthermore, imagine if it had been men and women? Both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.

 

Then, once he was healed for a moment by Ishamael, and he saw what he had done, he went and killed himself where he could hurt no one else. That is simply not a rude ass. That is a man that was doing what he thought was best for the world. Had his decisions been different, who knows how much more damage could have occurred.

[Tiinker]

Then, once he was healed for a moment by Ishamael, and he saw what he had done, he went and killed himself where he could hurt no one else.

 

Actually I think he did it out of grief. I don't believe he was even thinking about anyone else but was just drowned in sorrow.

 

The reason though that there were no women at the assault on SG was because the women thought that the idea was insane and that they should use the Choeden Kahl to wipe out the Shadow forces instead, and in the end he went with the Hundred Companions to seal off the Bore.

I agree he was arrogant, but not to the extreme. I think it was his ability to constantly outshine his comrades which eventually drove them over to the Shadow.

[Christine]

Then, once he was healed for a moment by Ishamael, and he saw what he had done, he went and killed himself where he could hurt no one else.

 

Actually I think he did it out of grief. I don't believe he was even thinking about anyone else but was just drowned in sorrow.

 

 

 

It says in the book that he could sense no one within a hundred miles. Why would RJ include that statement if not to show that he did care about not hurting anyone else. I agree that it was grief, but it is also important that he killed himself without hurting anyone else.

[Talya]

I was thinking about the arrogant bit, I think he was, but then a lot of leaders that have to deal with adversity are arrogant, i think it is probably part of their success. If the Women were only going to destroy the shadow forces it wouldn't solve the problem of the DO, so I think he felt there was no other choice. He at least went to the women first with the plan and didn't just ride off with his hundred companions.

 

I think it would have been grief over what he had done resulting in so many deaths. Not just his family. But he did kill himself without destroying anyone else, so that says some strong emotion burned through the insanity. he was given a glimpse of what had happened by Ishmael and may have thought it had not worked, so remorse would have played a bit part.

 

In fact, as we know he kept the DO out for 3000 years, but he had no idea at the time

[Locke]

Yes, he didn't kill anyone else when he killed himself, but I'm fairly certain that grief, sorrow, etc. lead him to kill himself in the first place.

 

Also, for some reason I remember thinking that the women thought the Choedan Kal were too powerful to use as well...Has anyone read The Strike on Shayol Ghul?

[Locke]

Yes, he didn't kill anyone else when he killed himself, but I'm fairly certain that grief, sorrow, etc. lead him to kill himself in the first place.

 

Also, for some reason I remember thinking that the women thought the Choedan Kal were too powerful to use as well...Has anyone read The Strike on Shayol Ghul?

[Tiinker]

Yes, he didn't kill anyone else when he killed himself, but I'm fairly certain that grief, sorrow, etc. lead him to kill himself in the first place.

 

Also, for some reason I remember thinking that the women thought the Choedan Kal were too powerful to use as well...Has anyone read The Strike on Shayol Ghul?

 

I haven't but I'm pretty sure that they were for using them against the Shadow forces when LTT was not. Think it was the other way around.

[Endyowitch]

Well. I think it's hard to judge LTT as a character because we really don't know so much about him. There are scraps of info bedded in some of the books apart from his lunatic rantings (mostly when the forsaken discuss him) but still not easy to get a somewhat clear picture.

 

Regarding the strike at SG (the event, not the short writing of it). Someone pointed out that male Aes Sedai are generally stronger with the OP and that was a reason good enough to bring 100 men (well they were 113 actually) instead of 50/50 men/women. This is definitely wrong. Even though men generally are stronger they have disadvantages, like they can't form a circle on their own. I'm pretty confident that both men and women will have to work together for the final blow at TG. It seems Rand is convinced that the absence of saidar when sealing the bore was THE biggest mistake. Obviously both men and women are needed when doing major things with the OP. Just take the cleansing of saidin for example. Rand would never have pulled that off by himself. If it takes saidin AND saidar to cleanse the TAINT of the dark one, it sounds about right that it would take saidin and saidar to seal him up properly.

 

That's a big difference of Rand and LTT. The later made a somewhat rash descision in a complicated situation and can imo only partially be blamed for it regarding the circumstances while Rand has the advantage in knowing what went wrong last time and won't make the same mistake again (and that is the use of saidin only of course).

 

Ok, the post became somewhat not what I intended from the beginning. Sorry for that. I'll try not to rabble to much later on :)

[Locke]

What is the maximum circle size?

[Endyowitch]

What is the maximum circle size?

 

Argh I should know this, my brain has a stand still. What I can remember right now is that men can't form circles on their own. Women can form a circle up to 13 without adding a man (adding one man makes them able to make the circle hold 26ppl, 2 men 39 and so on). 13 is the number required to gentle a man btw.

[Tiinker]

13 is the number required to gentle a man btw.

 

Well gentling and severing are the same thing and you can be severed from the source single-handedly.

 

You need 13 Dreadlords and 13 Myrddraal to turn someone though.

[Tynaal Consen]

13 is the number required to gentle a man btw.

 

Well gentling and severing are the same thing and you can be severed from the source single-handedly.

 

You need 13 Dreadlords and 13 Myrddraal to turn someone though.

 

Against their will yes.

13 seems to be a very meaningful number in the books. LTT sealed the bore with the hundred (actually 113-if I recall correcty) companions instead. Also, we have 13 Forsaken and I'm sure we could find more 13's around

 

While I was trying to find Lews' age, I found this quote:

“Rand al'Thor. So that is his name now. An arrogant man who stank of piety and goodness. Is he still the same?”

—Moghedien, describing Lews Therin (The Shadow Rising, Chapter 46)

 

I find it funny how one could use exactly that to describe Galad.

 

But that was off-topic, I'll reply to the original questions in a bit.

[Talya]

Ty, that is just like Galad. maybe those two were similar in character.

 

As for the circle I'm not sure how many can link up. But I would imagine a fair few. so that would make it all the more powerful if they could get together than just the 113 men from the first time!

 

Welcome Endy, it's lovely of you to join in.

[Niniel]

Yes, he didn't kill anyone else when he killed himself, but I'm fairly certain that grief, sorrow, etc. lead him to kill himself in the first place.

 

Also, for some reason I remember thinking that the women thought the Choedan Kal were too powerful to use as well...Has anyone read The Strike on Shayol Ghul?

 

I have read The Strike on Shayol Ghul. This is what I remember:

 

Lews Therin wanted to seal the bore with the seven seals. Some of the Aes Sedai thought that wouldn´t succed. They wanted to use the Choedan Kal to form a barrier around SG until they could figure out a way to deal with the bore in a better way. But at the same time all knew that if someone would use the Choedan Kal they would be burned out in a second due to the huge flow of OP and it could destroy the whole world. That´s why they made the ter´angreal access keys. They made them far away from the sa´angreals to be sure nothing should happen. Unfortunately Sammael and his forces overrun that region and so the access keys was in the land of the enemy. Luckily they were hidden and the forsaken didn´t know about them.

 

Latra Posae Decume was the female Aes Sedai who had proposed that the Choedan Kal should be used. Eventualy she gain a lot of supporters and it became a division between the female Aes Sedai (who was on Latras side) and the male Aes Sedai (who agreed with Lews Therin). Sammaels, Belals and Demandreds forces were winning and if something wasn´t done they would soon destroy everything. At that time Lews Therin decided that he should go along with his original plan and without the approval of the hall he took the Hundred Companions (and a lot of soldiers) and went to seal the bore.

 

I think it must have been frustrating to see that Latra and her companions couldn´t let go of the Choedan Kal plan even if the access keys were lost. The enemy was comming closer and the female Aes Sedai could only think about how to smuggle out the ter´angreal. I can see why Lews Therin choose to go with only the male Aes Sedai. If nothing would be done quickly everything would be lost. To bad they just couldn´t get along... I agree with you that next time there has to be both female and male channelers working together.

[Niniel]

Btw. There is an free app on Android market that contains The Strike of Shayol Ghul, New Spring and book 1 - 12. It´s not easy or fun to read whole books on the phone but The Strike of Shayol Ghul is only 15 pages.

[Guest Czechs In The M'Hael]

 

 

Latra Posae Decume was the female Aes Sedai who had proposed that the Choedan Kal should be used. Eventualy she gain a lot of supporters and it became a division between the female Aes Sedai (who was on Latras side) and the male Aes Sedai (who agreed with Lews Therin). Sammaels, Belals and Demandreds forces were winning and if something wasn´t done they would soon destroy everything. At that time Lews Therin decided that he should go along with his original plan and without the approval of the hall he took the Hundred Companions (and a lot of soldiers) and went to seal the bore.

 

I wish there had been more on Latra Posae to be honest. She sounded cool, cooler than most of the modern day Aes Sedai IMO. Cadsuane was cool before she fell, and Moiraine can be as cool as she once was, but Latra challenging Lews Therin himself would be awesome to learn more about even if it was through Rand remembering.

 

From what we've seen of Lews Therin in the new Rand, I think I would like to learn more of how Lews Therin percieves pretty much everything. Including the other Ta'veren.

 

So. What are you folks thinking of Lews Therin and Rand? To put my own belief into as short a space as possible, I think there is no seperation between them in any way shape or form, the same guy in every possible context. Is that a given?

[Barid Bel Medar]

GAH!! Lews Therin Everywhere!!! *balefires unfortunate cat*

 

On a more serious note, I like the dynamics of the LTT and Latra relationship.

 

Both of them did what needed to be done.

 

The Bore needed to be sealed. It was the Taint or unravelling the whole pattern. So LTT is a hero for sacrificing (albiet unknowingly)saidin to seal the bore.

 

People complain about Latra's opposition, but that too was necessary. IF the females had gone along with LTT, saidar would have also been tainted, and there was no way the world would have been able to survive with BOTH male and female gone mad. THe men did a good enough job at destroying the world as it is.

 

So both should be respected for their roles. Both saved the world from certain destruction.

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

So. What are you folks thinking of Lews Therin and Rand? To put my own belief into as short a space as possible, I think there is no seperation between them in any way shape or form, the same guy in every possible context. Is that a given?

 

YOu are correct in one respect. Theey are the same soul, the same entity. But I beleive that LTT is a different aspect of that soul. While he IS technically Rand, they are also different in the fact that Rand was born and raised,and experienced different things to Lews Therin. Lews Therin was good at things Rand isnt (drawing)and he had different tastes.

 

So it is really hard to say. Lews Therin was always a part of Rand, but is not the whole of Rand, nor is Rand the whole of Lews Therin. They are just aspects merged.

[Guest Czechs In The M'Hael]

So, to reiterate... the soul of the RaT/LTT entity is one sheet of paper; on one side we have writings of Lews Therin and the AoL. On the other side we have Rand and the supposed Third Age, and at one point Rand begins to access the writings of the other side. In a manner of speaking.

 

One thing I have seen since coming here is that a lot of people like the idea that Lews Therin had a Talent for recognising someone by their soul, or an awareness of souls/threads. What do you folks think to that? Although I do like the idea I am somewhat skeptical on this, Dashiva being the main reason. I can understand "discovering" your Talents, but when an awareness of people in general is considered a Talent, I cannot help but think it unlikely for Rand to have that Talent because he has never given a shred of insight into this that I can think of.