A thought on 13 x 13

[tlburchhardt]

I have been rereading the series in preparation for the final book and I keep thinking about the 13 x 13. I was very concerned about it until I remembered something...Asmodean. He is starting his planning and scheming in the waste, and his plans are coming together. All of a sudden this half mad red head comes and starts causing troubles. Thankfully he is still connected to the Great Lor...oh crap. His connection has severed! If tSR Rand could sever Asmodean from the Dark One then there should be a fair amount of channelers who have the power to do it by AMoL. (they just don't know that they can, yet)

[Elgee]

Are you suggesting that people turned to the Shadow by the 13 people channeling through 13 Fades method leads to them having a similar "connection" to the DO as the male Forsaken have?

[tlburchhardt]

Yes, but not as "involved" of a connection. How else would the 13 x 13 work? If the dreadlords and forsaken wanted to control someone they could use compulsion. the 13 x 13 makes a connection to the DO. Also, I think all Forsaken have that connection to the DO (not just males)

[Barid Bel Medar]

13x13 doesnt work like that. The DO isnt really involved as such.

 

The "ceremony" is used to bring out all the evil thoughts that are already there, covering the "good" ones.

 

The "Black Chords" RJ has said, is the DO's protection from the Taint.

 

13x13 is something very different.

 

I suggest looking at RJ's explainations of 13x13 on Theoryland quote database

[Elgee]

I agree that it's something different, but Tomas might have a point in that it IS somewhat related. Like the "also ran" version of what the DO did to the male channelers (the only ones we really have evidence of). That would indeed be an interesting twist on things, and as you say, Tomas, gives one hope that it could somehow be reversed.

 

I would certainly love to see "Apple Man" rescue Tarna and any other turned Reds ... lol

[Barid Bel Medar]

Here is what RJ has to say about it.

 

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

 

I am not saying that it cant be healed, but it is not the Black Chords. It is possible that Nynaeve or someone finds something similar to the black chords, that reverses the process, but we have not seen it.

[OptimusPrime]

Personally I think the 13 x 13 ritual is a very basic way of how a One Power channeler can access the power of the Dark One. Myrdraal I think have some ammount of True Power in their... genetic makeup, for want of a better term, possibly like a True Power Well in a sense? Look at what happened to Rand with a single use of the True Power; it exaggerated his negativity and suppressed his sense of love, companionship, etc to the point where he felt he could PROFIT from Lans death, Lan being a mentor and someone Rand looked up to for a time. The abrupt change reminds me of the explanation RJ gave about the effect of 13x13.

 

I do like this idea though, that those turned are marked somehow, because I theorize that Taim, who/whatever he is, was allowed the freedom to recruit in this fashion by the Pattern because it is just a simple matter of severing a connection, an offswitch, an anti-13x13 weave, whatever, that can undo almost all of the BT infection.

 

Random image in my head.

 

13 Chosen + 13 Myrdraal = Dark Ones ideal situation in which Rand was turned, thirteen True Power channelers pouring monumental ammounts of True Power into Rand, the 13 channelers being enough to overpower any channeler, the 13 Myrdraal to overpower the willpower of any Dragon incarnation...

[Sharaman]

The "Asmo connection" consisted of a black cord link that sucked off the taint from saidin and protected him from going mad. Presumably this was something that the GLoD offered all his saidin channelers. Losing that link didn't make Asmo any less evil - it just left him exposed to going mad. There was nothing to Heal in Asmo's case.

 

The 13x13 turning is a form of compulsion that highlights the resident evil in anybody's personality. It doesn't as far as we know, create a physical connection with the GLoD, unlike the black cords. There is nothing to be severed. However, it's possible that an inverse turning method or some form of healing could restore the original personality.

[jemron]

I like the idea that people who have been 13 x 13d will somehow be brought out of their trance or "healed" in the end, which will possibly help the Light to win in the end. Whether or not that's related to the black chords, I don't know, but I do think they will be "fixed."

[tlburchhardt]

it seems like an awful lot to go through to do mega compulsion.

 

1)The dark elements take control, but why?

 

2)Is it a super spirit weave or do the myrdraal bring something else to it? Are they some sort of key?

 

3)Why does it only effect channelers?

 

4)Was it written in the books that the black chord is just a taint vacuum or did that come up somewhere else?

[Barid Bel Medar]

it seems like an awful lot to go through to do mega compulsion.

 

1)The dark elements take control, but why?

 

2)Is it a super spirit weave or do the myrdraal bring something else to it? Are they some sort of key?

 

3)Why does it only effect channelers?

 

4)Was it written in the books that the black chord is just a taint vacuum or did that come up somewhere else?

 

Thing is, its not compulsion, thats what makes it so useful. Its just like recruiting perfectly able people who can think for themselves. COmpulsion is a set of orders, the person cant be creative, they just do as you say. 13x13, you get willing DF out of it. It is hard to explain, but it is definitely worth it.

 

1. Because that is what the 13x13 circle makes it do? I dont understand what your saying. Why does fire burn? Thats just what the weave does. Bringing out the Dark in people turns them into DF's, thats why they do it?

 

2) The specifics are not clear. I would say, because the Myrddraal are involved, they are the key. Perhaps, because they are constructs of the TP, it allows the channelers to tap into some of the TP evil and transfer it. But it isnt certain.

 

3) Back in tEotW, Moiraine says channelers are vunerable to the Shadow. Not sure if they ever explain it, but there is something to having access to the OP that makes people vunerable. Since it only works on Channelers, I am assuming that the 13x13 takes advantage of this weakness.

 

4. That was stated by RJ in an interview. Have a look at Theroyland Quote Database, Terez has a compiled a great list of interview material.