Another beginner's question

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Is this the post with the map comparisons mentioned?

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/41579-the-wot-world-compared-to-the-world-of-the-first-age-our-world/page__p__1206540__fromsearch__1#entry1206540

 

I suggest looking through the whole topic. I'd like to do a more thorough analysis at some point. I feel it could be greatly improved upon and some things corrected.

 

that's a fine pice of work, Agitel, thank you! i've always wanted to see something like that. the geography has always confused me so much.

[MierinWru]

<rambling>

 

On a completely unrelated note I'd love to know what's currently happening across the Aiel Wastes in the continent of Shara.

 

The fate of the world gets decided in Randland because that's where Rand is I guess. So are the people in Shara completely ignorant of the fact that the world is about to fall into Darkness? Even though I recall somebody mentioning that there's something going in Shara, too it just seems a bit silly. But that's how fantasy novels work. Their stories usually take place only in part of the world (what's to the east and south of the stuff that's on Tolkien's middle-earth map in LOTR btw?) but the fate of the whole world is decided.

 

Or hey, will the Dark One actually spare Shara because they closed their borders?!

 

</rambling>

 

 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

<rambling>

 

On a completely unrelated note I'd love to know what's currently happening across the Aiel Wastes in the continent of Shara.

 

The fate of the world gets decided in Randland because that's where Rand is I guess. So are the people in Shara completely ignorant of the fact that the world is about to fall into Darkness? Even though I recall somebody mentioning that there's something going in Shara, too it just seems a bit silly. But that's how fantasy novels work. Their stories usually take place only in part of the world (what's to the east and south of the stuff that's on Tolkien's middle-earth map in LOTR btw?) but the fate of the whole world is decided.

 

Or hey, will the Dark One actually spare Shara because they closed their borders?!

 

</rambling>

 

 

that's kind of how this world works, especially before all this here easy global communication came along. stuff could be starting to happen in one part of the world, like say the plague, and most of the rest of the world would be ignorant of it until it sailed into their harbors or over their walls. there are things that are happening today in one part of the world or another, that will decide the fates of everyone in the world, though most may not know about it till it smacks them in the head. and even when it does, they probably won't know where it started.

[MierinWru]

that's kind of how this world works, especially before all this here easy global communication came along. stuff could be starting to happen in one part of the world, like say the plague, and most of the rest of the world would be ignorant of it until it sailed into their harbors or over their walls. there are things that are happening today in one part of the world or another, that will decide the fates of everyone in the world, though most may not know about it till it smacks them in the head. and even when it does, they probably won't know where it started.

 

Fair enough, you're right and i agree. But all I said was "I'd love to know what's going on in Shara".

 

 

I love Jordan's world building and I probably would've enjoyed reading about Shara more than reading all those Egwene/Elayne/Perrin chapters in books (umm...) 7-11 (?) that didn't lead anywhere.

 

 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

(sorry, my thought processes are tangential, no offense meant)

 

yeah, i wish he'd lived forever, and finished every story he started. would have taken forever, too.

 

it kind of felt like the story got too tangled in the threads to unravel itself.

[Agitel]

Week 18 Question: Who were the first channelers, and how did they learn? By trial and error? Are there any Ages where channeling does not exist?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one.

 

Yes, as I have set things up, there are Ages when no one has any idea of how to channel or even that the One Power exists. Our own, for one. (The Wheel of Time turns.)

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html

 

Emphasis mine. There are a number of references to our own Age. In The Eye of the World Thom rattles off many when he first starts to show off in Emond's Field.

 

"You want stories?" Thom Merrilin declaimed. "I have stories, and I will give them to you. I will make them come alive before your eyes." A blue ball joined the others from somewhere, then a green one, and a yellow. "Tales of great wars and great heroes, for the men and boys. For the women and girls, the entire Aptarigine Cycle. Tales of Artur Paendrag Tanreall, Artur Hawkwing, Artur the High King, who once ruled all the lands from the Aiel Waste to the Aryth Ocean, and even beyond. Wondrous stories of strange people and strange lands, of the Green Man, of Warders and Trollocs, of Ogier and Aiel. The Thousand Tales of Anla, the Wise Counselor[1]. 'Jaem the Giant-Slayer.' How Susa Tamed Jain Farstrider. 'Mara and the Three Foolish Kings'[2]

 

"Tell us about Lenn[3]," Egwene called. "How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. Tell me about his daughter Salya[4] walking among the stars.

 

...

 

"Old stories, those," Thom Merrilin said, and abruptly he was juggling three colored balls with each hand. "Stories from the Age before the Age of Legends, some say. Perhaps even older. But I have all stories, mind you now, of Ages that were and will be. Ages when men ruled the heavens and the stars, and Ages when man roamed as brother to the animals. Ages of wonder, and Ages of horror. Ages ended by fire raining from the skies, and Ages doomed by snow and ice covering land and sea. I have all stories, and I will tell all stories. Tales of Mosk the Giant[5], with his Lance of fire that could reach around the world, and his wars with Elsbet, the Queen of All[6]. Tales of Materese the Healer, mother of the Wondrous Ind[7]."

 

[1]A gag reference to Ann Landers, a very popular advice columnist who wrote for the Chicago Sun-Times, whose advice was featured in many papers across the U.S. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Landers

 

[2]I've never seen this one really discussed, but it strikes me as what happened to the Christian Christmas story, of Mary and the three kings/wise men who came to visit.

 

[3]A reference to John Glenn, the first American to orbit the earth and the third American in space. The Eagle part comes from the name of the capsule of the first moon landing, and Neil Armstrong's first intentional words to NASA from the moon, which included "The Eagle has landed." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Glenn

 

[4]A reference to Sally Ride, the first American woman in space. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally_Ride

 

[5]A reference to the capital of the superpower USSR, Moscow. We'll see more on Mosk in The Shadow Rising.

 

[6]A reference to Queen Elizabeth and the British Empire/United Kingdom. Which Queen Elizabeth I don't know, but I assume the most recent one, and the Cold War.

 

[7]A reference to Mother Theresa of India. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Theresa

 

Thom also speaks of a time when all peoples lived as hunter-gatherers, and of times when mankind was a space-faring civilization. He gives reference to what is believed to have been a nuclear war that ended the Seventh/First Age. And also about the onset of an ice age.

 

Now, onto The Shadow Rising.

 

A silvery thing in another cabinet, like a three-pointed star inside a circle, was made of no substance [Egwene] knew; it was softer than metal, scratched and gouged, yet even older than any of the ancient bones. From ten paces she could sense pride and vanity.

 

This is understood to be a reference to an old Mercedes-Benz hood ornament. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-benz

 

"And that is only a thousand years back. Go back further, back to the oldest tales I know, from the Age before the Age of Legends. Did Mosk and Merk really fight with spears of fire[8], and were they even giants? Was Elsbet really queen of the whole world, and was Anla really her sister? Was Anla truly the Wise Counselor, or was it someone else? As well ask what sort of animal ivory comes from, or what kind of plant grows silk. Unless that comes from an animal, too."

 

[8]This is understood to be a reference to a war between Moscow [uSSR/Russia] and America, and perhaps the end of our present Age (nuclear holocaust? Age ended with fire falling from the sky?).

 

Rand sat cross-legged nearby. "I can believe the stories. Ghoetam[9], sitting beneath Avendesora for forty years to gain wisdom. Right now, I can believe."

 

[9] A reference to Siddhārtha Gautama (or Gotama), the Supreme Buddha. He was reportedly sitting beneath pipal tree when he announced that he would not get up until he had found truth. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha

 

As I said earlier, one needs to take off one's science hat. Likely what threw people back into the hunter-gathering period that we grew out of (within the WoTverse) was another major even that destroyed civilization? War? Ice age (or the 'cause' of it). Something interpreted as a great flood? But prior to that, there was supposed to be civilization, and from those civilizations and even after humanity was decimated the stories that inspired the religions of today were passed on, including stories of Rand, Perrin, and Mat, and stories of the Last Battle.

 

Keep also in mind that technology can progress in the course of an Age, it doesn't have to be static. If one were trying to define what our "Age" is, I'd be tempted to point to the end of the last Ice Age as the start of it, with the development of agriculture and what not. I wouldn't say that the classical Greeks and Romans were one, then the Dark Ages, then the Renaissance, then the modern, or anything of the sort.

[Mongoose]

re distinct ages - i think the idea is the series of dark ages we have punctuated by times of apparent enlightenment, like, say, JC, darkness, arthur, darkness, modern industrial society, impending apocalypse, darkness.

no energy to argue, here. there are 70 faces to the torah, and at least that many to the WOT, so you see it your way, and i'll still see it mine.

 

What's interesting is that two of the greatest figures in British mythology; Arthur and Robin Hood, were essentially myths, or composites of many different characters but I get your point.

 

There was a pre-and post-flood Sumer, there was the kingdom of Alexander the Great (whom I feel was the real basis for Hawkwing, both were undefeated, both conquered unprecedentally vast territories, both had their empires collapse upon their passing [which I guess makes Andor either the Seleucid or Ptolemaic Empire]) there was the dark ages after the fall of the Roman Empire.

 

But we know when civilization and agriculture begn on Earth, there's empirical evidence.

 

Again, I'm not trying to be argumentative, or upset you just stating my opinion and the rationale behind it. No hard feeling, I hope.

 

As I said earlier, one needs to take off one's science hat. Likely what threw people back into the hunter-gathering period that we grew out of (within the WoTverse) was another major even that destroyed civilization? War? Ice age (or the 'cause' of it). Something interpreted as a great flood? But prior to that, there was supposed to be civilization, and from those civilizations and even after humanity was decimated the stories that inspired the religions of today were passed on, including stories of Rand, Perrin, and Mat, and stories of the Last Battle.

 

Keep also in mind that technology can progress in the course of an Age, it doesn't have to be static. If one were trying to define what our "Age" is, I'd be tempted to point to the end of the last Ice Age as the start of it, with the development of agriculture and what not. I wouldn't say that the classical Greeks and Romans were one, then the Dark Ages, then the Renaissance, then the modern, or anything of the sort.

 

I guess I just can't take off that hat. I just have a lower threshold of suspension of disbelief. We have no evidence of any pre Ice Age civilization. How could the One Power not exist in this Age if it's the driving force behind the Universe? Its like saying there's an Age where particle physics doesn't exist. I will say that none of the examples you listed occured to me, but then I was never looking at the series as though it was supposed to be Earth. I guess it's just something I can't accept. For me, consistency in storytelling is everything. I guess it makes me a boring person.

[Agitel]

As I said earlier, one needs to take off one's science hat. Likely what threw people back into the hunter-gathering period that we grew out of (within the WoTverse) was another major even that destroyed civilization? War? Ice age (or the 'cause' of it). Something interpreted as a great flood? But prior to that, there was supposed to be civilization, and from those civilizations and even after humanity was decimated the stories that inspired the religions of today were passed on, including stories of Rand, Perrin, and Mat, and stories of the Last Battle.

 

Keep also in mind that technology can progress in the course of an Age, it doesn't have to be static. If one were trying to define what our "Age" is, I'd be tempted to point to the end of the last Ice Age as the start of it, with the development of agriculture and what not. I wouldn't say that the classical Greeks and Romans were one, then the Dark Ages, then the Renaissance, then the modern, or anything of the sort.

 

I guess I just can't take off that hat. I just have a lower threshold of suspension of disbelief. We have no evidence of any pre Ice Age civilization. How could the One Power not exist in this Age if it's the driving force behind the Universe? Its like saying there's an Age where particle physics doesn't exist. I will say that none of the examples you listed occured to me, but then I was never looking at the series as though it was supposed to be Earth. I guess it's just something I can't accept. For me, consistency in storytelling is everything. I guess it makes me a boring person.

 

Well, perhaps the previous civilization was wiped out by another Breaking or something similar? Perhaps the Age before our own was an entire Age of hunter-gatherer societies that didn't move beyond it, the remnants of a fallen civilization that was destroyed in some great catastrophe. Many civilizations have tales of a Great Flood, and I'm sure Jordan was aware of that. Perhaps something of the sort is part of that great catastrophe. Maybe the Judeo-Christian Tower of Babel also comes into play, with humanity united again and trying to do something fantastic, but ultimately nearly driving them to extinction, leaving the remains scattered to come up with new languages and new religions. Ages have no set length, and not all Ages are the same length. It may very well have been tens of thousands of years, if not longer, since the collapse of that civilization, before the end of the last ice age.

 

No evidence? Yeah, there's a bit of a suspension of disbelief, but what if there WAS a great catastrophe that destroyed much of it, and then time did most of the rest? Of course, you have to ignore the fossil record and what not, but that's where the suspension of disbelief comes in. Or maybe Jordan had a reason for that, too.

 

I don't hold onto the idea that there is an entirely new creation every cycle. That just doesn't work for me. The stories wouldn't have survived to have been passed on as we know they do in the WoT-verse (not just the stories in the Third Age, but the mythologies in our own, geez it feels weird talking like this as if it were real).

 

As for the lack of the One Power, it's not that the One Power didn't exist. I quote Jordan in the previous post. People were just unaware of it and unable to tap it for whatever reason. It was inaccessible.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i feel like these ages were about 1000 years long, not thousands of years. there have been so many small breakings and large breakings, as well as small and great ice ages (though the one referred to up there i take as nuclear winter, as those early books were written in a time when this was an expected outcome of an expected WW3, and it still may well be.

 

dunno, though, i'm sleepy. can't recall where i got 1000 years from.

 

(no hard feelings in disagreement, especially not disagreement over a book)

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

and yeah, the age of merlin and arthur are supposed to be the end of the age of magic in our history, at year 1000 or so, followed by very dark ages, and then enlightenment, with its technolgy instead of magic, and, inevitably, enlightenment will lead right back to darkness.

[mb]

Like others told, the books (up through Gathering Storm) do not name the world or the continent or even the main area.

Read on Wikipedia long ago that the term Randland being the name fans picked for each 3.

 

Do not recall either author explicitly telling a name.

[MierinWru]

Do not recall either author explicitly telling a name.

 

Feels like a weird oversight for somebody who's as obsessed with the details of world building as Jordan was to be honest.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

he probably thought it was "intuitavely obvious." he was like that.

[MierinWru]

he probably thought it was "intuitavely obvious." he was like that.

 

Dunno, I think the continent is called "Bob".

 

 

 

 

Prove me wrong.

 

 

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

so you're saying bob killed asmodean?

[mb]

Dunno, I think the continent is called "Bob".

Prove me wrong.

If the author decided on a specific name, only the people that have access to the notes would know the name.

For the rest of us, it would be anybody's guess.

 

so you're saying bob killed asmodean?

How does that relate?

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Dunno, I think the continent is called "Bob".

Prove me wrong.

If the author decided on a specific name, only the people that have access to the notes would know the name.

For the rest of us, it would be anybody's guess.

 

so you're saying bob killed asmodean?

How does that relate?

i was indirectly pointing out that my previous post, where i rolled my eyes saying maybe RJ thought it (the name or the world) was "intuitively obvious," was similar to what he said about why he didn't reveal asmodean's killer.

 

by asking if bob killed asmodean, i was trying to indicate that when i said it was "intuitively obvious," i was not necessarily endorsing the idea, and was being facetious.

 

although it is intuitively obvious to me that the world is the earth, no matter what the WOT inhabitants call it in their time, it doesn't have to be so for anyone else.

[MierinWru]

Dunno, I think the continent is called "Bob".

Prove me wrong.

If the author decided on a specific name, only the people that have access to the notes would know the name.

For the rest of us, it would be anybody's guess.

 

I think you completely missed the fact that I wasn't being serious. Grats.

[Barid Bel Medar]

guys, mb does not really get jokes here. he takes everything as serious. (once about demandred being in jersey shore)

so try not to be too put off.

[UGAShadow]

As I said earlier, one needs to take off one's science hat. Likely what threw people back into the hunter-gathering period that we grew out of (within the WoTverse) was another major even that destroyed civilization? War? Ice age (or the 'cause' of it). Something interpreted as a great flood? But prior to that, there was supposed to be civilization, and from those civilizations and even after humanity was decimated the stories that inspired the religions of today were passed on, including stories of Rand, Perrin, and Mat, and stories of the Last Battle.

 

Keep also in mind that technology can progress in the course of an Age, it doesn't have to be static. If one were trying to define what our "Age" is, I'd be tempted to point to the end of the last Ice Age as the start of it, with the development of agriculture and what not. I wouldn't say that the classical Greeks and Romans were one, then the Dark Ages, then the Renaissance, then the modern, or anything of the sort.

 

I guess I just can't take off that hat. I just have a lower threshold of suspension of disbelief. We have no evidence of any pre Ice Age civilization. How could the One Power not exist in this Age if it's the driving force behind the Universe? Its like saying there's an Age where particle physics doesn't exist. I will say that none of the examples you listed occured to me, but then I was never looking at the series as though it was supposed to be Earth. I guess it's just something I can't accept. For me, consistency in storytelling is everything. I guess it makes me a boring person.

 

Well, perhaps the previous civilization was wiped out by another Breaking or something similar? Perhaps the Age before our own was an entire Age of hunter-gatherer societies that didn't move beyond it, the remnants of a fallen civilization that was destroyed in some great catastrophe. Many civilizations have tales of a Great Flood, and I'm sure Jordan was aware of that. Perhaps something of the sort is part of that great catastrophe. Maybe the Judeo-Christian Tower of Babel also comes into play, with humanity united again and trying to do something fantastic, but ultimately nearly driving them to extinction, leaving the remains scattered to come up with new languages and new religions. Ages have no set length, and not all Ages are the same length. It may very well have been tens of thousands of years, if not longer, since the collapse of that civilization, before the end of the last ice age.

 

No evidence? Yeah, there's a bit of a suspension of disbelief, but what if there WAS a great catastrophe that destroyed much of it, and then time did most of the rest? Of course, you have to ignore the fossil record and what not, but that's where the suspension of disbelief comes in. Or maybe Jordan had a reason for that, too.

 

I don't hold onto the idea that there is an entirely new creation every cycle. That just doesn't work for me. The stories wouldn't have survived to have been passed on as we know they do in the WoT-verse (not just the stories in the Third Age, but the mythologies in our own, geez it feels weird talking like this as if it were real).

 

As for the lack of the One Power, it's not that the One Power didn't exist. I quote Jordan in the previous post. People were just unaware of it and unable to tap it for whatever reason. It was inaccessible.

 

 

Perhaps in the 7th age the wielders of the power reset the Earth because of an impending disaster. Perhaps they are a space faring civilization who befalls a great calamity and must settle on a "new" Earth. Perhaps they are a Battlestar Galactica type civilization that runs from destruction to a new Earth.

 

 

There are many ways for the Earth to appear new at the beginning of every 1st age (I consider our age the 1st age). Perhaps the great flood myths refer to the ocean of space. Perhaps Sodom and Gomorrah represent planets destroyed that forced the humans to move on. Perhaps the Original Sin was the creation of self aware AI (Adam and Eve learning good from evil)

 

 

After all the pattern takes in the whole universe. Not just a single planet.

[Chivalry]

so you're saying bob killed asmodean?

 

If this was Twin Peaks, then yeah, most definitely. Bob's a killer...

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

:) yup

 

i didn't think anyone remembered.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

(mb, please don't be put off by us. you were right, and my post in no way related to the topic. i'm a random idiot much of the time)

[mandersen]

Question: where did the 7 ages thing come from? i don't recall hearing that before. I've kind of had this idea where the portion of the wheel's turnings that are pre (or post, depending on which direction you're looking i suppose) channelling end in a "breaking" that happens based on modern technology and weapons rather than the OP.

 

On an only vaguely related note, I've wondered about extinct animals after seeing this:

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

 

Q: In the Wheel of Time mythos, how do extinct animals come back into existence when the Wheel comes back around?

RJ: Well, the world I created is based on the ideas and conceptions of the world from a roughly medieval viewpoint; time being circular and such. I didn't quite try to make it completely scientifically accurate, so there really is no answer for the question.

 

But wasn't there something resembling a sabre tooth tiger skull early on in the series? Bayle Domon had it i think. Maybe that means they still exist somewhere. In this same Q & A session he basically told someone to get a life and get laid, though, so maybe he just wasn't in the mood to go into it. Or it means that we fans take this way more seriously that RJ did.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i've always felt that the WOT story occurs in our distant future, because of things like this, and many similar references throughout the books. i understand that RJ sort of said it was both future and past, but i can't really see it that way. similar events, developments, etc., may recur in similar ways as the wheel turns, and the same souls may be spun out to live similar lives, but like in a canticle for liebowitz, the past is the past, and the future is the future, despite the continual recurrence of stages of development, technology, etc.

 

i don't think glenn will go to the moon on the next apollo mission, though some other astronaut may go on another mission some day, and i don't think america and moscow will fight with ICBMs, though some other countries may, in the fullnss of time.