The Black Tower and Rand

[Elan Tedronai]

 

If LTT did not do what he did..the battle was lost. There was nothing else to do,the armies of the shadow was winning and the access keys were lost in areas won by the shadow.

 

Yes..Saiden was cleaned using the CK's but that was not what it was made for.

 

The keys were an alternate plan to lews therin mad plan. It was the right plan out of the two and basically would have given time to the aes sedai to figure out how the seal the prison properly and also push the dark one forces back too.

 

LTT's actions only led to a temporary break from the hostilities. His plan was flawed. The idea was sound, to seal the bore but the method used wrong. The fact that LTT wanted the woman to join his plan exposed his supposed unmatched knowledge of the power.

 

The bottom line here is that the kal has already repaired lews therin's biggest mistake which was the taint. What's more lews therin aka rand had no objection to building it and using the keys during the height of the war in the midst of dreadlords and forsaken running around. Throwing away the most powerful male sangreal 3000 years later in the face of another battle because it's too dangerous to use is just laughable. The authors must think we the readers are too dumb and will lap up anything.

 

 

Doesn't change the fact that he found the thing to be a mistake. A simple tool that any channeler basically could use to burn away the wheel itself, that is like handing out nuclear launch codes for free on the internet.

 

the thing helped cleaned his mess at the end of the last age. You know what would have truly ended the wheel? If the woman joined his original plan to seal the bore.

 

Ignore the troll and move on

 

 

if you have nothing better to say then kindly shut up and get lost

[Manscher]

The keys were an alternate plan to lews therin mad plan. It was the right plan out of the two and basically would have given time to the aes sedai to figure out how the seal the prison properly and also push the dark one forces back too.

 

LTT's actions only led to a temporary break from the hostilities. His plan was flawed. The idea was sound, to seal the bore but the method used wrong. The fact that LTT wanted the woman to join his plan exposed his supposed unmatched knowledge of the power.

 

 

Nothing suggests that the female Aes Sedais plan would've resulted in anything good, DOs strike at Saidin is something NOBODY could've expected. In fact, using the CK might have resulted in the destruction of the wheel itself, using brute force to overpower the Dark One can't possible be healthy.

 

the thing helped cleaned his mess at the end of the last age. You know what would have truly ended the wheel? If the woman joined his original plan to seal the bore.

 

No, woman joining in on the bore wouldn't have resulted in the wheel ending. Human kind obliterated? Perhaps, but not an ending to the wheel itself. It would've continued to spin until humankind would rise to prominence yet again. The CKs power on the other hand, can very well destroy the pattern. If you bother to pay attention to the shadows actions throughout the books, it's quite clear that the DOs intentions was to get Rand into destroying the wheel itself with the CK. Rand prevailed in VoG, and looking at it from a Sha'rah perspective, the DO has made his moves to get Rand to destroy the wheel, he failed and now it's time for bloody melee in the hope that he can at least accomplish a draw.

[Jimvzyl]

I see mention of Rand not seeing many signs (or missing signs - "so called aiel) that Taim is a DF.

Is it too crazy to assume that, aside from the Voice inside his head wanting to kill men who could channel, after he cleansed saidin, if Rand didn't believe that Taim was a DF- merely ambitious, then what he's done has been fine, and his fear of the voice and lack of need to go to the BT is normal.

 

The development of Dark Rand is where contact with Taim starts deteriorating. At this point, Rand has given up all hope of surviving the last battle. He just wants to get harder. Yes Taim sent people to kill him, and yes Logain warned him. That is not indicative of a DF though. Taim's jealousy, ambition, fear of the true Dragon, his desire to BE the Dragon could all point to this.

 

Besides, Taim IS a good leader and he IS resilient to Aes Sedai. After Rand gives up caring about what he leaves behind after he dies, Taim actually looks like a really good candidate to lead male channelers post-TG. I mean, what jealousy could the man have for a dead saviour when he could lead after?

 

Taim has given Rand reason to believe that he's not a DF too. Rescue at Dumai's Wells, attacking the grey man. Maybe Rand just thinks that Taim's ambition has outgrown his station when the Ashaman try to kill him at Far Madding.

 

Zen-Rand however, is now ready to confront the BT. But notice how he's not all like, 'We need to kill Taim, the DF'. He says we need to remind the Ashaman that they are men. He could still be suffering under the delusion that Taim is just a malicious, ambitious and conniving manipulator, rather than a true DF.

 

We as readers know too much, and it's easy to see characters as stupid in comparison.

[Kahsm]

I see mention of Rand not seeing many signs (or missing signs - "so called aiel) that Taim is a DF.

Is it too crazy to assume that, aside from the Voice inside his head wanting to kill men who could channel, after he cleansed saidin, if Rand didn't believe that Taim was a DF- merely ambitious, then what he's done has been fine, and his fear of the voice and lack of need to go to the BT is normal.

 

The development of Dark Rand is where contact with Taim starts deteriorating. At this point, Rand has given up all hope of surviving the last battle. He just wants to get harder. Yes Taim sent people to kill him, and yes Logain warned him. That is not indicative of a DF though. Taim's jealousy, ambition, fear of the true Dragon, his desire to BE the Dragon could all point to this.

 

Besides, Taim IS a good leader and he IS resilient to Aes Sedai. After Rand gives up caring about what he leaves behind after he dies, Taim actually looks like a really good candidate to lead male channelers post-TG. I mean, what jealousy could the man have for a dead saviour when he could lead after?

 

Taim has given Rand reason to believe that he's not a DF too. Rescue at Dumai's Wells, attacking the grey man. Maybe Rand just thinks that Taim's ambition has outgrown his station when the Ashaman try to kill him at Far Madding.

 

Zen-Rand however, is now ready to confront the BT. But notice how he's not all like, 'We need to kill Taim, the DF'. He says we need to remind the Ashaman that they are men. He could still be suffering under the delusion that Taim is just a malicious, ambitious and conniving manipulator, rather than a true DF.

 

We as readers know too much, and it's easy to see characters as stupid in comparison.

 

 

There are readers who don't even believe Taim is a darkfriend, but just a wildcard individual. So you can hardly blame Rand who has even less information. For example, from Rand's perspective, "so-called Aiel" may have been in reference to the stories of lightning from their eyes and being 20 feet tall. Rand may have assumed Taim only knew those before seeing the Aiel in person. This was an explanation that readers gave for a long time.

 

Otherwise, Taim saved him from the box, which would be huge for him.

[Alternate34]

Prepare for omnibus response drawing from everyone else and a few responses on my own.

 

There are several plausible reasons for Rand to not investigate the Black Tower.

 

That his madness is exacerbated when in contact with Taim is a very good reason. If "LTT" seizes the power from him at an inopportune moment, bad stuff would happen. Rand doesn't want that, so he stays away.

 

Another reason why is that Taim is producing well trained A'shaman to the best of Rand's knowledge. If Taim is doing his job, why would Rand get involved? Here is the list of things Rand must deal with: encroaching madness, conquering multiple nations, feeding nations he has already conquered and dealing with their politics, dealing with the Seanchan, training himself in The One Power and swordsmanship, two White Towers, one of which kidnapped him briefly, making sure his stash of powerful artifacts is safe, etc. Everyone of these tasks varies in importance, but some of them are direly important, the Seanchan easily trumping the importance of micro managing training of A'shaman.

 

Ask this question. How often does Rand train his own troops? He never does. He delegates that to Davram, Rhuarc, Lan, Mat, and the rest of his generals. That is what you do when you are head honcho in charge. The only time you take things into your own hands is if things seem fishy. As mentioned before, Taim keeps supplying him with effective A'shaman for his campaign against the Seanchan. There is no reason for him to check up on the Black Tower.

 

But Logain warned him! Why is that at all important? Why should Rand trust Logain over Taim? Why not assume that Logain just wants to oust Taim for power? Throw in that Rand is deeply paranoid, and it seems apparent that Rand would never trust Logain. He doesn't really trust Taim either, but he doesn't check up on any of them because he has to command one of the largest armies ever assembled and deal with the politics of several different nations.

 

As for the access key, there are also several reasons to destroy them as well. The most obvious reason is that losing the access key to the Shadow means you lose. End of story. We cannot know if Light + Choedan Kal = Victory. There are reasons to doubt that assumption. First, the One Power by itself cannot seal the Dark One as proven during the Age of Legends. Preventing the Dark One from corrupting the power is one necessary condition for victory. If the Dark One is not sealed, then the probability of the Shadow eventually obtaining the key is increases because (1) the Shadow still exists and (2) the Shadow exerting its influence makes it more likely someone will eventually succumb to the Shadow who has access to the Choedan Kal. Maybe some A'shaman who is already somewhat mad obtains the Choedan Kal and breaks the world irreparably.

 

That the Choedan Kal has been used for good doesn't mean that it wouldn't be used for evil later. The Light already has the most powerful male and female channelers in the world (Rand and Alivia/Nynaeve). Why allow a wild card like the Choedan Kal that could destroy that advantage?

[XXX]

 

 

 

 

The keys were an alternate plan to lews therin mad plan. It was the right plan out of the two and basically would have given time to the aes sedai to figure out how the seal the prison properly and also push the dark one forces back too.

 

LTT's actions only led to a temporary break from the hostilities. His plan was flawed. The idea was sound, to seal the bore but the method used wrong. The fact that LTT wanted the woman to join his plan exposed his supposed unmatched knowledge of the power.

 

The bottom line here is that the kal has already repaired lews therin's biggest mistake which was the taint. What's more lews therin aka rand had no objection to building it and using the keys during the height of the war in the midst of dreadlords and forsaken running around. Throwing away the most powerful male sangreal 3000 years later in the face of another battle because it's too dangerous to use is just laughable. The authors must think we the readers are too dumb and will lap up anything.

 

 

How was the CK the right plan..the access keys were lost. Only after the keys were lost did LTT try his idea. What choice did he have?..the shadow was winning and the forsaken were aware of the CK's whose keys were in the areas they controlled. The making of the CK only worsened a bad situation. You can call LTT actions a mistake but if he did not act the shadow would have already won. No one had any other idea once the keys were lost.

 

The CK's were never used in the war of the shadow,the keys were lost right after making them..the first time they were used was when Rand and Asmo were fighting for it. LTT was against making them from the beginning.

 

From a tactical side destroying the CK's make sense..the most powerful channelers on both sides are Rand and Moridin both are equal in power. If the shadow gets CK then there is nothing Rand can do, and even with the CK Rand cannot win except blast trollocs. So why keep it at such risk?

[Elan Tedronai]

The keys were an alternate plan to lews therin mad plan. It was the right plan out of the two and basically would have given time to the aes sedai to figure out how the seal the prison properly and also push the dark one forces back too.

 

LTT's actions only led to a temporary break from the hostilities. His plan was flawed. The idea was sound, to seal the bore but the method used wrong. The fact that LTT wanted the woman to join his plan exposed his supposed unmatched knowledge of the power.

 

 

Nothing suggests that the female Aes Sedais plan would've resulted in anything good, DOs strike at Saidin is something NOBODY could've expected. In fact, using the CK might have resulted in the destruction of the wheel itself, using brute force to overpower the Dark One can't possible be healthy.

 

the thing helped cleaned his mess at the end of the last age. You know what would have truly ended the wheel? If the woman joined his original plan to seal the bore.

 

No, woman joining in on the bore wouldn't have resulted in the wheel ending. Human kind obliterated? Perhaps, but not an ending to the wheel itself. It would've continued to spin until humankind would rise to prominence yet again. The CKs power on the other hand, can very well destroy the pattern. If you bother to pay attention to the shadows actions throughout the books, it's quite clear that the DOs intentions was to get Rand into destroying the wheel itself with the CK. Rand prevailed in VoG, and looking at it from a Sha'rah perspective, the DO has made his moves to get Rand to destroy the wheel, he failed and now it's time for bloody melee in the hope that he can at least accomplish a draw.

 

 

wrong. at the time of the strike the dark one was still behind his prison. There was no need to go head to head with the dark one because technically he was still behind bars even though he could extend his influence through the bore lanfear drilled through his prison.

 

The keys was the right plan at the time. firstly driving off all of sammael and demandred forces back, retaking all the lands lost to the shadow. Then erecting a barrier around shayol ghul so the dark one's influence does not extend beyond the blight. Buy the aes sedai some time to figure a way to undo whatever lanfear has done and reheal the prison back to it's original state.

 

LTT's plan was a daring plan and one that would have been catastrophic if the woman joined him. It would have meant the end of the world. can you imagine a world inhabited by mad power wielding women in addition to men? A world where they only way to stay sane is to pledge your allegience to the dark one? give a few years and the shadow would have been in possession of all objects of power including the keys. Then it would have been gameover.

[Elan Tedronai]

 

 

 

 

The keys were an alternate plan to lews therin mad plan. It was the right plan out of the two and basically would have given time to the aes sedai to figure out how the seal the prison properly and also push the dark one forces back too.

 

LTT's actions only led to a temporary break from the hostilities. His plan was flawed. The idea was sound, to seal the bore but the method used wrong. The fact that LTT wanted the woman to join his plan exposed his supposed unmatched knowledge of the power.

 

The bottom line here is that the kal has already repaired lews therin's biggest mistake which was the taint. What's more lews therin aka rand had no objection to building it and using the keys during the height of the war in the midst of dreadlords and forsaken running around. Throwing away the most powerful male sangreal 3000 years later in the face of another battle because it's too dangerous to use is just laughable. The authors must think we the readers are too dumb and will lap up anything.

 

 

How was the CK the right plan..the access keys were lost. Only after the keys were lost did LTT try his idea. What choice did he have?..the shadow was winning and the forsaken were aware of the CK's whose keys were in the areas they controlled. The making of the CK only worsened a bad situation. You can call LTT actions a mistake but if he did not act the shadow would have already won. No one had any other idea once the keys were lost.

 

The CK's were never used in the war of the shadow,the keys were lost right after making them..the first time they were used was when Rand and Asmo were fighting for it. LTT was against making them from the beginning.

 

From a tactical side destroying the CK's make sense..the most powerful channelers on both sides are Rand and Moridin both are equal in power. If the shadow gets CK then there is nothing Rand can do, and even with the CK Rand cannot win except blast trollocs. So why keep it at such risk?

 

 

destroying the ck does not make any sense whatsoever. It can be used to destroy any single fighting force the dark one musters.

 

If the ck was not lost during the war of power, all the gains made by the shadow would have been instantly lost. All the armies in the world headed by the best forsaken generals would not make a single iota of difference against the might of two of the most power sangreal in the hands of the forces of light. Even if ishy and co begged shaitan for backup it would have made no difference. The dark one was still behind is prison so he cant do much either. That would have given the light side forces plenty of time to come up a different alternative to LTT's reckless plan. Just because the keys were lost and LTT's final desperate act led to the end of war does not make it the right plan

 

Rand is at the moment in the same position. He wants to break the seals and start another war of power. The moment the seals are broken, you can bet your ass that trollocs and all sorts of shadows spawn would be coming out of the woodworks. But he destroys the one weapon that would make all shadowspawn irrelevant. Either he knows the secret to sealing the bore properly already or he's simply feeling care free. Perhaps he's confident that the answer would fall onto his lap like how it has done throughout the series.

 

 

the fact is the kal was destroyed to balance the story. Nothing more nothing less. I would accept the kal melting like how the female counterpart did during the cleansing. But this TOO DANGEROUS TO USE excuse is just hogwash. Not too dangerous to be used to cleanse saidin. Not too dangerous to be used when it was being constructed during LTT's time as the first among servants. Not too dangerous to be used at the height of the war of power.

[Manscher]

wrong. at the time of the strike the dark one was still behind his prison. There was no need to go head to head with the dark one because technically he was still behind bars even though he could extend his influence through the bore lanfear drilled through his prison.

 

The keys was the right plan at the time. firstly driving off all of sammael and demandred forces back, retaking all the lands lost to the shadow. Then erecting a barrier around shayol ghul so the dark one's influence does not extend beyond the blight. Buy the aes sedai some time to figure a way to undo whatever lanfear has done and reheal the prison back to it's original state.

 

I'd like to remind you about the fact that the keys for the CKs was lost and that the shadow was winning the war, the strike WAS the only solution.

But lets just assume they weren't, we still do not know the consequences of what would've happened if the female Aes Sedai had gone through with their plan. It's always easier to simply play Captain Hindsight and blame LTT for what he did.

 

Besides, You vastly overestimate the power of the CK. Time and time again we've been reminded throughout the stories that even the strongest channeller is still made of flesh and can just as easily fall to the blade of an assassin as any other person could.

Fact is, the CK was destroyed because it did not fit with the theme of TGS. Brute force and power is not the way to go, TGS proved that quite well. Even with all his might and power, Rand was still unable to solve the issues of Arad Doman, it was not until he realized that military might was not the solution, but rather hope and belief.

[Alternate34]

 

the fact is the kal was destroyed to balance the story. Nothing more nothing less. I would accept the kal melting like how the female counterpart did during the cleansing. But this TOO DANGEROUS TO USE excuse is just hogwash. Not too dangerous to be used to cleanse saidin. Not too dangerous to be used when it was being constructed during LTT's time as the first among servants. Not too dangerous to be used at the height of the war of power.

 

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

 

The too dangerous to use reason is only one reason to destroy the Choedan Kal. And it is a good reason. You have semi-mad, half-mad, and sorta-mad A'shaman on your side. You can't guarantee that they will not get their hands on the Choedan Kal. Additionally, even if the Choedan Kal assures victory over the Shadow, its existence after The Last Battle is far too dangerous anyway. Darkfriends will not disappear. Ol' common madness won't disappear. Power hungry individuals won't disappear. Evil individuals won't disappear. If one of them can channel saidin, you have a tyrannical dictator that plunges the world into something like a Dark One victory, setting up an eventual Dark One victory. They could also crack the world like an egg. Holding that power makes it more likely the power is misused. Rand used it to perpetrate one of the most dangerous uses of balefire ever seen.

 

Beyond the too dangerous to exist argument, there is no guarantee it would help achieve the goals of the Light. Destroying the Dark One with the One Power is impossible. Destroying his armies doesn't guarantee a victory either. If the forces of Light don't triumph over the Dark One quickly, the holder of the Choedan Kal, or someone close to him, may use it for evil because of the Dark One's greater influence. Also note that using it to shield the world from the Dark One's influence is not on the table because the knowledge of the Pattern and the One Power is less than that during the Age of Legend and the female Choedan Kal is gone, which may have been required to beat back the Dark One's influence anyway.

 

Moving on to the Latra Posae plan, your assertions that the plan was awesome and would have worked have no evidence to support them. That Lews Therin plan partially failed (it did succeed in slowing down the Dark One) is not evidence that Plan Choedan Kal would have succeeded. You assume that it never would have fallen into the wrong hands. That assumption is ridiculous as the keys were lost after their completion. Why didn't those who had the keys at the time use them to prevent them from being lost? The risk of them falling into the wrong hands was almost realized before. You also assume that a person using the Choedan Kal would be able to resist corruption because of access to such an awesome power. This assumption is also ridiculous considering Rand did succumb to corruption because of its awesome power when he balefired Graendal's hideout and when he almost destroyed the world.

 

Just looking at the instances when the Choedan Kal were used illustrates how dangerous they were:

(1) Used during their creation.

(2) Used between Rand and Asmodean to take down mountains and cause immense damage everywhere.

(3) Used to cleanse saidin.

(4) Used to balefire an entire castle and its inhabitants.

(5) Used to destroy itself.

 

At best that is two bad uses, two good uses, and one use to destroy itself. That was when it was mostly in control of the forces of good. But hey, you can ignore the near misses I guess and assume that all is happy and good with the Choedan Kal. Just know you willfully ignore evidence in order to support your pet theory that Robert Jordan had the Choedan Kal destroyed in order to keep the story interesting with no real justification.

[XXX]

 

 

 

destroying the ck does not make any sense whatsoever. It can be used to destroy any single fighting force the dark one musters.

 

If the ck was not lost during the war of power, all the gains made by the shadow would have been instantly lost. All the armies in the world headed by the best forsaken generals would not make a single iota of difference against the might of two of the most power sangreal in the hands of the forces of light. Even if ishy and co begged shaitan for backup it would have made no difference. The dark one was still behind is prison so he cant do much either. That would have given the light side forces plenty of time to come up a different alternative to LTT's reckless plan. Just because the keys were lost and LTT's final desperate act led to the end of war does not make it the right plan

 

Rand is at the moment in the same position. He wants to break the seals and start another war of power. The moment the seals are broken, you can bet your ass that trollocs and all sorts of shadows spawn would be coming out of the woodworks. But he destroys the one weapon that would make all shadowspawn irrelevant. Either he knows the secret to sealing the bore properly already or he's simply feeling care free. Perhaps he's confident that the answer would fall onto his lap like how it has done throughout the series.

 

 

the fact is the kal was destroyed to balance the story. Nothing more nothing less. I would accept the kal melting like how the female counterpart did during the cleansing. But this TOO DANGEROUS TO USE excuse is just hogwash. Not too dangerous to be used to cleanse saidin. Not too dangerous to be used when it was being constructed during LTT's time as the first among servants. Not too dangerous to be used at the height of the war of power.

 

 

They keys were lost and under danger of being found by the forsaken..it was only then that LTT made his desperate strike. This was the only thing left..the female AS plan with the CK had failed and had to potential to backfire which is what LTT feared from the beginning.Remember he was never in favor of making them in the first place.

 

Tactically it makes sense to destroy the CK..the CK can destroy the side of the light by destroying the wheel..on the other hand the CK cannot defeat the Dark One. It could save human lives but in the grand scheme of things the danger of it being used against the wheel itself was too much. Relying on the CK as a weapon is pretty short sighted.

[XXX]

 

the fact is the kal was destroyed to balance the story. Nothing more nothing less. I would accept the kal melting like how the female counterpart did during the cleansing. But this TOO DANGEROUS TO USE excuse is just hogwash. Not too dangerous to be used to cleanse saidin. Not too dangerous to be used when it was being constructed during LTT's time as the first among servants. Not too dangerous to be used at the height of the war of power.

 

I don't think this word means what you think it means.

 

The too dangerous to use reason is only one reason to destroy the Choedan Kal. And it is a good reason. You have semi-mad, half-mad, and sorta-mad A'shaman on your side. You can't guarantee that they will not get their hands on the Choedan Kal. Additionally, even if the Choedan Kal assures victory over the Shadow, its existence after The Last Battle is far too dangerous anyway. Darkfriends will not disappear. Ol' common madness won't disappear. Power hungry individuals won't disappear. Evil individuals won't disappear. If one of them can channel saidin, you have a tyrannical dictator that plunges the world into something like a Dark One victory, setting up an eventual Dark One victory. They could also crack the world like an egg. Holding that power makes it more likely the power is misused. Rand used it to perpetrate one of the most dangerous uses of balefire ever seen.

 

Beyond the too dangerous to exist argument, there is no guarantee it would help achieve the goals of the Light. Destroying the Dark One with the One Power is impossible. Destroying his armies doesn't guarantee a victory either. If the forces of Light don't triumph over the Dark One quickly, the holder of the Choedan Kal, or someone close to him, may use it for evil because of the Dark One's greater influence. Also note that using it to shield the world from the Dark One's influence is not on the table because the knowledge of the Pattern and the One Power is less than that during the Age of Legend and the female Choedan Kal is gone, which may have been required to beat back the Dark One's influence anyway.

 

Moving on to the Latra Posae plan, your assertions that the plan was awesome and would have worked have no evidence to support them. That Lews Therin plan partially failed (it did succeed in slowing down the Dark One) is not evidence that Plan Choedan Kal would have succeeded. You assume that it never would have fallen into the wrong hands. That assumption is ridiculous as the keys were lost after their completion. Why didn't those who had the keys at the time use them to prevent them from being lost? The risk of them falling into the wrong hands was almost realized before. You also assume that a person using the Choedan Kal would be able to resist corruption because of access to such an awesome power. This assumption is also ridiculous considering Rand did succumb to corruption because of its awesome power when he balefired Graendal's hideout and when he almost destroyed the world.

 

Just looking at the instances when the Choedan Kal were used illustrates how dangerous they were:

(1) Used during their creation.

(2) Used between Rand and Asmodean to take down mountains and cause immense damage everywhere.

(3) Used to cleanse saidin.

(4) Used to balefire an entire castle and its inhabitants.

(5) Used to destroy itself.

 

At best that is two bad uses, two good uses, and one use to destroy itself. That was when it was mostly in control of the forces of good. But hey, you can ignore the near misses I guess and assume that all is happy and good with the Choedan Kal. Just know you willfully ignore evidence in order to support your pet theory that Robert Jordan had the Choedan Kal destroyed in order to keep the story interesting with no real justification.

 

Point 1 never happened..the CK was never used after it's creation..it was never even tested as LTT whispers to Rand during one of the books.

[Kahsm]

 

 

 

destroying the ck does not make any sense whatsoever. It can be used to destroy any single fighting force the dark one musters.

 

If the ck was not lost during the war of power, all the gains made by the shadow would have been instantly lost. All the armies in the world headed by the best forsaken generals would not make a single iota of difference against the might of two of the most power sangreal in the hands of the forces of light. Even if ishy and co begged shaitan for backup it would have made no difference. The dark one was still behind is prison so he cant do much either. That would have given the light side forces plenty of time to come up a different alternative to LTT's reckless plan. Just because the keys were lost and LTT's final desperate act led to the end of war does not make it the right plan

 

Rand is at the moment in the same position. He wants to break the seals and start another war of power. The moment the seals are broken, you can bet your ass that trollocs and all sorts of shadows spawn would be coming out of the woodworks. But he destroys the one weapon that would make all shadowspawn irrelevant. Either he knows the secret to sealing the bore properly already or he's simply feeling care free. Perhaps he's confident that the answer would fall onto his lap like how it has done throughout the series.

 

 

the fact is the kal was destroyed to balance the story. Nothing more nothing less. I would accept the kal melting like how the female counterpart did during the cleansing. But this TOO DANGEROUS TO USE excuse is just hogwash. Not too dangerous to be used to cleanse saidin. Not too dangerous to be used when it was being constructed during LTT's time as the first among servants. Not too dangerous to be used at the height of the war of power.

 

 

They keys were lost and under danger of being found by the forsaken..it was only then that LTT made his desperate strike. This was the only thing left..the female AS plan with the CK had failed and had to potential to backfire which is what LTT feared from the beginning.Remember he was never in favor of making them in the first place.

 

Tactically it makes sense to destroy the CK..the CK can destroy the side of the light by destroying the wheel..on the other hand the CK cannot defeat the Dark One. It could save human lives but in the grand scheme of things the danger of it being used against the wheel itself was too much. Relying on the CK as a weapon is pretty short sighted.

 

I'm not saying it should be relied on as a weapon. But it has the possibility of cleaning up messes and fixing the world if it needs fixing again. We've seen the OP fix the weather and Saidin both. There could easily be other challenges where the Choden Kal could have set thing right. But now it can't.

 

If Rand had come to the conclusion that the CK needed to be destroyed, for all your reasons, before Saidin had been cleansed. Would he have not cleansed it first and simply destroyed them? Would he force all his Asha'man and himself deal and die with the taint because the existence of the CK is ethically wrong? I doubt it. And using them first then destroying them is hypocritical. Why? because he'd be saving himself and the Asha'man with this "too dangerous" tool and then throwing away the lively hood and/or the lives of anyone who suffers from some unknown systemic imbalance that the CK could have fixed in the future.

 

Now that's mostly speculative. If you think it was wrong to use them to cleanse Saidin, then you're in the right to argue for their destruction I guess.

[Manscher]

The nuclear weapon ended WWII quick and perhaps saved millions of people, yet everybody agrees on the fact that they have to be dismantled and removed simply because they are to destructive. The same can be said about the CK, sure they've done good, but the fact still remains that ANY male channeller can use it to bring destruction to the world. Besides that, there is only known key left, that person can't be present at several battlefields at the same time. Rand said outright that he couldn't fight in every single battle for them, he would help organize them, but they had to fight the battles themselves. I doubt very much he would trust the power of the CK to any Asha'man to use it in combat.

[Kahsm]

The nuclear weapon ended WWII quick and perhaps saved millions of people, yet everybody agrees on the fact that they have to be dismantled and removed simply because they are to destructive. The same can be said about the CK, sure they've done good, but the fact still remains that ANY male channeller can use it to bring destruction to the world. Besides that, there is only known key left, that person can't be present at several battlefields at the same time. Rand said outright that he couldn't fight in every single battle for them, he would help organize them, but they had to fight the battles themselves. I doubt very much he would trust the power of the CK to any Asha'man to use it in combat.

 

Nuclear weapons are not dual use like the CK. The CK is not a weapon at all, the weaves would be the weapons. The CK is like a technology to make the weapons, and we still build nuclear power plants to this day (though they are a little out of favour now-a-days, but still soldiering on). So your example basically disproves itself once you create a suitable analogy.

 

Dual-use technologies are debated in philosophy of science all the time, and there's pretty much a consensus that regulation and management of the negatives is the way to go. Otherwise you halt innovative progress and simply end an entire technological discipline.

 

For example, we don't want people to make clone armies, so we stop everything relating to stem-cell, embryonic, and genome research? Well say goodbye to the potentially unfathomable golden-age of disease prevention and cures and worse, any unknown sciences that would further stem from that.

 

Another more practical example is smallpox. We keep smallpox on-hand in case it's ever used against us. But by keeping it and studying it, we actually increase the risk of it being used against us because it could be stolen or even accidentally released. The solution is not to get rid of it, because we may need it for the greater good, but to design a handling, storage, and care system that will adequately contain it and mitigate as much risk as possible.

[MasterAblar]

 

 

 

destroying the ck does not make any sense whatsoever. It can be used to destroy any single fighting force the dark one musters.

 

If the ck was not lost during the war of power, all the gains made by the shadow would have been instantly lost. All the armies in the world headed by the best forsaken generals would not make a single iota of difference against the might of two of the most power sangreal in the hands of the forces of light. Even if ishy and co begged shaitan for backup it would have made no difference. The dark one was still behind is prison so he cant do much either. That would have given the light side forces plenty of time to come up a different alternative to LTT's reckless plan. Just because the keys were lost and LTT's final desperate act led to the end of war does not make it the right plan

 

Rand is at the moment in the same position. He wants to break the seals and start another war of power. The moment the seals are broken, you can bet your ass that trollocs and all sorts of shadows spawn would be coming out of the woodworks. But he destroys the one weapon that would make all shadowspawn irrelevant. Either he knows the secret to sealing the bore properly already or he's simply feeling care free. Perhaps he's confident that the answer would fall onto his lap like how it has done throughout the series.

 

 

the fact is the kal was destroyed to balance the story. Nothing more nothing less. I would accept the kal melting like how the female counterpart did during the cleansing. But this TOO DANGEROUS TO USE excuse is just hogwash. Not too dangerous to be used to cleanse saidin. Not too dangerous to be used when it was being constructed during LTT's time as the first among servants. Not too dangerous to be used at the height of the war of power.

 

 

They keys were lost and under danger of being found by the forsaken..it was only then that LTT made his desperate strike. This was the only thing left..the female AS plan with the CK had failed and had to potential to backfire which is what LTT feared from the beginning.Remember he was never in favor of making them in the first place.

 

Tactically it makes sense to destroy the CK..the CK can destroy the side of the light by destroying the wheel..on the other hand the CK cannot defeat the Dark One. It could save human lives but in the grand scheme of things the danger of it being used against the wheel itself was too much. Relying on the CK as a weapon is pretty short sighted.

 

I'm not saying it should be relied on as a weapon. But it has the possibility of cleaning up messes and fixing the world if it needs fixing again. We've seen the OP fix the weather and Saidin both. There could easily be other challenges where the Choden Kal could have set thing right. But now it can't.

 

If Rand had come to the conclusion that the CK needed to be destroyed, for all your reasons, before Saidin had been cleansed. Would he have not cleansed it first and simply destroyed them? Would he force all his Asha'man and himself deal and die with the taint because the existence of the CK is ethically wrong? I doubt it. And using them first then destroying them is hypocritical. Why? because he'd be saving himself and the Asha'man with this "too dangerous" tool and then throwing away the lively hood and/or the lives of anyone who suffers from some unknown systemic imbalance that the CK could have fixed in the future.

 

Now that's mostly speculative. If you think it was wrong to use them to cleanse Saidin, then you're in the right to argue for their destruction I guess.

 

I don't know what Rand would have done, but a future unknwon systemic imbalance would be in the future and uncertain. You'd be risking everyone's lives and even the world on the possibility of a future problem. The taint is real. It's now and it's killing people or worse. And it can be delt with even if it's dangerous to try and fix it. Any future catastrophe that the CK could have been helpful in preventing is completely unknown, and Rand has to deal with the world's current problems.

[Manscher]

Sure you can use the CK for other things, but it's still mainly considered a weapon, built with the sole purpose of fighting the shadow. You can't regulate it like you can with technology, utilizing technology on a dangerous plan usually requires a lot of resources, utilizing the CK does not. All it requires is one male channeller with the wrong intentions to lay his hands on it, and the world is doomed. So yes, you can very much compare it with nuclear weapons, all it requires is one person with ill intentions to get control over one of them, and massive destruction is ensured. Only reason they've never been used since WWII is because so many different nations now holds them, if one fires a nuclear weapon off, the others will retaliate and nobody would gain anything in such a scenario, besides utter destruction. This also does not apply to the CK, there is no counter for it, no balance.