Random WoT Rant

[Talmanes]

First off let me say I love the WoT so I don't want anyone freaking out on me.

That said, here I go...

 

1. So I've heard a lot of people always compare the Fremen in Dune to the Aiel in WoT, and I hadn't read it, so didn't really know. I'm reading it now, and I have to say there does seem to be a lot of similarities. Mostly just the way of life is extremely similar. They live in a desert wasteland, they are incredible fighters, not much is actually known about their society initially, their numbers are underestimated, water is incredibly important, water is used to make pacts, deals, etc. So obviously there is a lot here that is quite similar, but I disagree still with people who say they are the same thing. The Fremen are an incredibly advanced, although it isn't necessarily known, race who live in a science fiction world, whereas the Aiel are a less advanced (they are, face it) race that live in a completely different, fantasy, world. Also, besides the main character becoming a leader of each, as far as I can tell, the plot lines aren't very close at all.

 

That said I'm only halfway through Dune, so no spoilers please.

 

2. What really bothers me is the use of Shaitan vs. Shai'tan. Besides the apostrophe it is the same word, meaning the same thing. That I pretty much see as copying, because it can't be that hard to think of a new word, honestly. Once again, in both stories, the plot is different with the use of the words, Dune it is just Satan, not a tangible thing, WoT it is an actual being that is actively involved, but wordwise, it's the same thing.

 

3. Who else thinks it is going to be absolutely great when Rand finally finds out Mat is the Prince of Ravens? I mean seriously, how is that conversation going to go?

Rand-Mat I'm glad you're here, I need you for the Last Battle, but first, I need you to crush the Seanchan, they wouldn't make a truce with me. That stupid Daughter of the Nine Moons, I'll show her.

Mat-Um...yeah...about that...

Rand-What?

Mat-I kind of married her and became the Prince of Seanchan....

Rand-*throaty chuckle* Very funny Mat, but we need to plan battle strategy now though.

Mat- I wasn't joking, I really married her...

Rand-What in bloody ashes?!!?!?!

 

No but in all reality I know it will end up with Mat being a big part with being Seanchan nobility, and getting them and Rand together. I assume new Rand will suck up his pride and bow to get them to fight and just attack them after. Though ToM definitely gave an interesting glimpse of the future.

 

4. Ok, so back in the day when Rand was first wearing fancy coats, and having Mat make fun of him and such, he goes to Cairhien right? So I was thinking about this today. Everyone there kinda just assumes he is a foreign prince, right? But seriously, there aren't that many countries in the mainland, so wouldn't the High Nobility of one know the High Nobility of the others? That seems just a little bit important to politics, especially in Cairhien, where politics is everything.

 

That's all I got for now, more later.

[Byzantine279]

#2, both are just minor corruptions of Satan, so of course they seem alike, they are based on the same word, or as the WOT folks would say, Satan is a corruption of Shai'tan.

 

#3, knowing Zen Rand he would just be "Ohh, I see, so that is how she is to be bound to me. Please go get her so we can have a nice talk, and would you mind getting some tea as well." (Yea, I'm exaggerating a bit, but he would likely just go "oh, that's what the wheel wanted" and leave it at that.)

 

#4, they assume Rand is a lord of some sort, and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people with that title in Cairhien alone. It is impossible to know everyone so they just assumed from the way he looked that he was a minor lord from another country, the assumption that he was higher up came after he started burning letters, because they assumed he had to have a connection to someone high up the chain to dare invitations like that.

 

On an unrelated note, does anyone know how to reset firefox's dictionary, in this post alone I managed to add 5 misspellings.

[Erunion]

Shaitan is the Islamic Satan. So actually, they both ripped it from Islam, but Jordan added an ' whereas Dune didn't even bother with that distinction.

 

And yeah, the Mat-Rand get together is going to be fun.

[Byzantine279]

Yea, it will, though I'm more looking forward to the Moiraine-Rand one that I assume will happen about the same time. I just wonder what Rand will do when he sees her alive, probably mention something about the letter she left him and making him think she was dead.

[Terez]

On an unrelated note, does anyone know how to reset firefox's dictionary, in this post alone I managed to add 5 misspellings.

I've had this bookmarked for a while.

[Talmanes]

#2, both are just minor corruptions of Satan, so of course they seem alike, they are based on the same word, or as the WOT folks would say, Satan is a corruption of Shai'tan.

 

#3, knowing Zen Rand he would just be "Ohh, I see, so that is how she is to be bound to me. Please go get her so we can have a nice talk, and would you mind getting some tea as well." (Yea, I'm exaggerating a bit, but he would likely just go "oh, that's what the wheel wanted" and leave it at that.)

 

#4, they assume Rand is a lord of some sort, and there are hundreds, if not thousands, of people with that title in Cairhien alone. It is impossible to know everyone so they just assumed from the way he looked that he was a minor lord from another country, the assumption that he was higher up came after he started burning letters, because they assumed he had to have a connection to someone high up the chain to dare invitations like that.

 

On an unrelated note, does anyone know how to reset firefox's dictionary, in this post alone I managed to add 5 misspellings.

 

Well obviously, no one can know them all, I was only pointing out the fact that some people were thinking he was a prince, and that High of Nobility would generally be known.

 

Shaitan is the Islamic Satan. So actually, they both ripped it from Islam, but Jordan added an ' whereas Dune didn't even bother with that distinction.

 

And yeah, the Mat-Rand get together is going to be fun.

 

I did not know that, though it makes sense.

 

Yea, it will, though I'm more looking forward to the Moiraine-Rand one that I assume will happen about the same time. I just wonder what Rand will do when he sees her alive, probably mention something about the letter she left him and making him think she was dead.

 

Yeah that will be another huge scene I think too, because she was one of the most important characters, especially in Rand's storyline, and her being back will be very big.

[Byzantine279]

High nobility would generally be known by other high nobility, and if they didn't know who he was they might make an assumption that he only recently took that role and they haven't heard of him yet. Basically they should know, but since he appears (as far as they are concerned) to be as deep into the game as one can be, that he is someone very important, who maybe just got to that position and is using his time there to show what he is capable of. It wouldn't be unheard of for someone who recently gained stature or became first in line for a throne to go somewhere and show off their skills to make everyone believe they were the right choice, and to begin building up acquaintances they might need later.

[Talmanes]

Good points.

[Ace Sedai]

1. So I've heard a lot of people always compare the Fremen in Dune to the Aiel in WoT, and I hadn't read it, so didn't really know. I'm reading it now, and I have to say there does seem to be a lot of similarities. Mostly just the way of life is extremely similar. They live in a desert wasteland, they are incredible fighters, not much is actually known about their society initially, their numbers are underestimated, water is incredibly important, water is used to make pacts, deals, etc. So obviously there is a lot here that is quite similar, but I disagree still with people who say they are the same thing. The Fremen are an incredibly advanced, although it isn't necessarily known, race who live in a science fiction world, whereas the Aiel are a less advanced (they are, face it) race that live in a completely different, fantasy, world. Also, besides the main character becoming a leader of each, as far as I can tell, the plot lines aren't very close at all.

 

That said I'm only halfway through Dune, so no spoilers please.

 

As a big Dune fan{read pretty much every Dune universe book}the Aiel are a direct lift from Dune.No doubt in my mind at all.A few cosmetic changes but you can tell Fremen inspired Aiel.The history,harsh environment and so much other stuff.

[Ace Sedai]

My rant/question.

 

WTF is a lionfish ?

 

I have tried visualizing it and I end up with a ridiculous cross between a walrus / lion and shark.

Enlighten me.

[FarShainMael]

One of these:

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZB2RunYk4lQ/TKt7n7LhsiI/AAAAAAAAAXA/VO66Lwt5C6I/s1600/lionfish.jpg

 

at least, in the here-and-now! I suspect Siuan's lionfish is a lot bigger and nastier.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110314141606.htm

[Ace Sedai]

One of these:

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ZB2RunYk4lQ/TKt7n7LhsiI/AAAAAAAAAXA/VO66Lwt5C6I/s1600/lionfish.jpg

 

at least, in the here-and-now! I suspect Siuan's lionfish is a lot bigger and nastier.

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/03/110314141606.htm

ok now I feel stupid.

I thought it was a completely mythical creature not a lion fish lion fish.

I am enlightened

[FarShainMael]

For all we know, it might be!!

[yoniy0]

So actually, they both ripped it from Islam

I wouldn't say Herbert ripped Islam. It's not the only hint in the books that the Fremen are descendent from Muslims. So are the Bene Tleilax. Oddly enough, Herbert figured that Jews will remain Jews for all that time, but he felt the need to depict a different evolution for Christianity and Islam.

[David Selig]

4. Ok, so back in the day when Rand was first wearing fancy coats, and having Mat make fun of him and such, he goes to Cairhien right? So I was thinking about this today. Everyone there kinda just assumes he is a foreign prince, right? But seriously, there aren't that many countries in the mainland, so wouldn't the High Nobility of one know the High Nobility of the others? That seems just a little bit important to politics, especially in Cairhien, where politics is everything.

I assumed that the Cairhein nobles thought Rand was a high Andoran noble, maybe even someone from the royal family, using an alias as part of some complicated plot. He certainly looked the part, being tall, with blue eyes, dressed in expensive clothes, etc, and by that poin he had acquired the dominant presence which allowed him to look convincing as someone used to command. Barthanes even hinted that he might be Gawyn Trakand.

[Aiyen kin Leary]

Oh, and as far as RJ adding an apostrophe to the DO's name-I've seen it written with the apostrophe in Arabic transliterations, nothing to do with WOT. RJ took the exact form.

[Reeve]

I think the first Dune book may well be one of the best sci-fi / fantasy books ever written. There is only that, and Stephen Donaldson's Gap series which I rate as better than WoT.

The difference between the two Shiatan names is that Frank Herberts use of it fits with the history of Dune - it would be a spoiler to say more, but as far as world building goes, Dune is in many ways truer. The WoT is a world invented, rather than one based upon, so the name in WoT is a funny coincidence rather than a part of the world.

Having said that, you cannot write a book about a fantasy place without having references to our world. It would be gobbledegook.

 

I think it is likely that the Aiel were "inspired" by the Freemen, but I don't think it is a copy. Its a small difference, but both are based on reason in many ways. A society that lives in a desert will fight over water, and water will be the most precious commodity. This is what actually happens on our planet, and has done so for many thousands of years. Much of what the Freemen and Aiel do is based on that one fact, so both societies are in many ways the inevitable conclusion of what would happen due to the land the people inhabit.

 

As the old saying goes "there is no such thing as originality, just undiscovered theft". Name any film or book, and you will find it stole ideas from something previous. Even Lord Of The Rings did so, taking from norse legends and many of the lost stories from the UKs distant past. Star Wars took from The Hidden Temple amongst others...

[Tiinker]

He also took Ishamael from the Islamic Ishmael. Who was the first and fallen angel if i remember right

[yoniy0]

He also took Ishamael from the Islamic Ishmael. Who was the first and fallen angel if i remember right

Do you mean Abraham's first-born son from his maid Hagar?

 

EDIT: Funny story someone told me once. Genesis 22 tells the story of the Binding of Isaac. In paragraph 2 God tells Abraham to "Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest" (according to the King James version, though in the original Hebrew it goes more like "Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac"). The story goes that Abraham was reluctant to sacrifice Isaac and thought to get away with sacrificing Ishmael in his stead. God was thus forced to narrow His demands farther at each turn, explaining why He needed to use four descriptives for Isaac.

[Beidomon]

Lionfish are beautiful, exotic, and highly prized in aquariums, but they are also ridiculously poisonous. That fish will mess you up if you get stung. Kind of like having a pet rattlesnake.

 

Also, regarding the Rand/lordship stuff, doesn't seem unrealistic at all. There's no internet, after all, which makes it pretty tough to keep tabs on all the promotions and demotions in all the countries.

[FarShainMael]

Erk!

[Talmanes]

Without replying to each one, I agree that a lot of things are borrowed in all series' but I still hold that Aiel and Fremen aren't the same, though I agree some inspiration may have come from them, RJ based them on other things too.

 

I agree with WoT lionfish prolly being bigger and badder.

 

And yeah I know about Ishamael just didn't about Shai'tan. I believe Tear was a real place too.

[FarShainMael]

I think I've read that Tear was modelled on Tyre:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre_(Lebanon)

 

The name Tyre apparently meant 'rock'..

[sonuvnothing]

@Talmanes, I love both the Dune universe and WoT-land, but I was just thinking I'd throw you some more eerily similar connections between the two worlds, since you mentioned the Fremen/Aiel connection.

 

Aes Sedai, masters of Saidar. Can call upon Earth, Air, Fire, Water, or Spirit, to reign destruction down, or heal great suffering with equal measure.

Bene Gesserit, masters of the body and mind. Can look into all of their own past lives. Have mastered their bodies functions to the point that they can move lightning quick and control the impulses of people through sound and vocal manipulation. It's like they are using 100% of their brain, and everyone else is stuck at 10%. I Believe there is a scene in the first Dune book, when she's testing Paul, that Rev Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam asks him, before being tested, if he's ready to 'become a true human'. In effect, what they do is such a hyper-advanced state of human potential that it might as well BE wielding saidar/magic to the average denizen of the Dune universe. (although once you get to 'chapterhouse:dune', it seems like every other character is super-powered)

 

Both groups have been set up for millenia. Both have massive political clout, and your oft to find either one sitting behind, or even NEXT to any given King, Emperor, etc., whispering in their ear. Both groups are pretty much viewed as an aristocratic class by the denizens of their respective worlds, that is to say, people treat them like near-royalty. Both are exclusively female. Both have secret plans...

 

Which leads us to... dun dun dunnnn. Dragon Reborn/Kwisatz Haderach!!!

 

Dragon Reborn, reincarnated soul of Lews Therin Telamon come back after thousands of years to defeat the Dark One.

Kwisatz Haderach, he who can be many places at once, a product of centuries of selective breeding by the Aes Sedai < < cough > > Bene Gesserit, culminating in the perfect physical and mental specimen destined to be able to foretell the future and lead mankind down the golden path.

 

Both are the only MALES in their respective universes to contain the power equivalent of the female-caste of wizard-esque aristocrats.

(Not to say that there weren't other male power-wielders when Rand's power manifested in EotW, but it's definitely a given that Rand was the only non-evil male channeler we saw at first!)

 

Which segues nicely into the initial connection... Aiel/Fremen. Seeing as both the Aiel AND the Fremen are recruited by Rand/Paul. I'll reiterate their desert connection, also their spartan ways of life. They both have a reputation as badass fighters throughout their respective universes. They are both eventually led by their cultural messiah. The whole "white savior" stereotype. Hah. Wherein a badass outsider comes into a native culture and is better than the natives, and eventually improves their lives(...for a while). Rand survived Rhuidean, while Couladin did not; Paul kills Jamis,a native Fremen, in a knife-fight to the death. (For more "white savior", see: "Dances with Wolves", "The Last Samurai", "Avatar" haha)

 

Another deeper connection to the two is that BOTH of them have their 'messiah' myths implanted into their culture thousands of years before we see them. Implanted, of course, by the powerful women-groups. The Aes Sedai (well... the Jenn Aiel, helping the AS), planted the Ter'angreal at Rhuidean to mark the Clan Chiefs and let them and the Wise Ones know that eventually the Car'a'carn would come from the outside land to lead them. The Bene Gesserit, with their missionary programs, long ago seeded many women across many worlds to help create a mutual creation myth. Since any reverend mother can see into all of her past lives, every new reverend mother gets the memories of every one before her... thus acting in the same way as the Ter'angreal at Rhuidean, keeping the myth alive! That one day, "MAHDI", the savior would come and lead them out of the desert. When Lady Jessica finds the Fremen with her son, she learns they have a prophecy that obviously stemmed from an old Bene Gesserit, and she uses that to her advantage and fits her son right into it... claiming that he is in fact their savior.

 

Like I said, I love both of these worlds, two of my favorite authors! I'm not claiming Jordan plagiarized anything, I'm just saying he definitely read some Frank Herbert! Hell, a good idea is a good idea. Also, I am an entirely over-analytical person, so I tend to pick things apart and MAKE them fit how I want them. So don't flame me for any broad generalizations.

 

"MAY THY KNIFE(tainted shadar logoth dagger) CHIP AND SHATTER!"

 

-Son ov Nothing

[FarShainMael]

I did read Dune, but it was years and years and years ago, and all I remember are the sandworms and stillsuits. But how likely is it that FH and RJ are drawing from a common source, rather than pinching ideas off each other?