Dark Prophecy

[yoniy0]

My field is electronics engineering rather than electrical, the difference might be summarised thus: in electronics we play with electrons and get them performing clever tricks (in everything from transistors to microprocessors) while electrical engineers make them work for their living hauling energy around! And yes, I retired a few months ago.

Good on you. I'm actually working on my M.Sc. in EE these days, so I know a (very little, trust me) thing about that. Though truth be told I've never cared much what electrons do. Leave the circuitry to those who enjoy such stuff, I say. I'll stick to fields like control, SP, coding and information theory.

 

the KJV was commssioned as a translation of the Bible from the original Greek to English (bypassing the Latin intermediary used by RCs) in a way which would be accessible to the English man-in-the-street, in their own vernacular. So while saying things like 'yea, verily, I sayeth unto thee' might be viewed as odd now, that was indeed they way they spoke at the time. But yea, it hath indeed retained some flavour that doth denote a deep significance, methinks.

Methinks always sounds to me like something Jar Jar Binks would say. I don't care if Shakespeare used it. More to the point, though, the Greek was only native to part of the Bible . Just thought I'd say something. Whenever I compare the KJV to the original Old Testament I find it rather lacking (this is probably a good place to mention that I'm a complete layman in linguistics, and everything I say in the matter is meant only as my personal uneducated opinion). I have a feeling it has to do with the Greek translation, but until I learn ancient Greek there's nothing I can do to verify that.

 

And even more to the point:

@yoniy0 - did you see the comments from Peter? He's probably the most notorious English major I know. ;)

Yeah, I did. Don't really know what to make of it, though, because if I simply substitute it for 'yes' then both interpretations remain plausible (though I like mine better, naturally).

 

Sometimes I really wish DM had the rep system activated.

What's that?

[Terez]

@yoniy0 - did you see the comments from Peter? He's probably the most notorious English major I know. ;)

Yeah, I did. Don't really know what to make of it, though, because if I simply substitute it for 'yes' then both interpretations remain plausible (though I like mine better, naturally).

Like I said originally, I don't think we should read too much into the word at all. It doesn't imply anything special.

 

Sometimes I really wish DM had the rep system activated.

What's that?

Malazan has a similar Invision version to DM I think. Look here, in the WoT sub-form, someone's random TOM review. There are little + and - buttons in the bottom right hand corner of every post. I think the -rep option can be disabled, though in general it doesn't seem to necessary - most people use it for +rep unless someone is trolling. You can leave a little message saying why you thought the post was awesome/horrible. It's essentially worthless and no one makes a huge deal out of it (total rep points and messages can be viewed on a person's profile but they're not really in-your-face, so it's not something people really obsess over). But I find myself wishing you guys had a rep system all the time. We have one at Theoryland too, though it's different, and Tam has neg rep disabled (again, mostly unnecessary in my experience - he just didn't want to risk rep-wars).

[FarShainMael]

@yoniy0: I got up to M.Sc. as well, at London Uni. But I still can't talk English proper like wot I should..

 

Methinks always sounds to me like something Jar Jar Binks would say.

 

 

Oh, and just make sure you learn the right ancient Greek..

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek </ OT>.

 

Now, about the Old Tongue.. NM.

[mb]

Like I implied earlier, the "Broken Wolf" would most likely be a wolfbrother.

[herid]

Like I implied earlier, the "Broken Wolf" would most likely be a wolfbrother.

You really should post full details of your theory as it's actually one of the best ones I've seen thus far. One liners like this won't help your cause as they don't address all the relevant parts of the prophecy:

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring

fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

From your various posts I believe your full theory is as follows.

 

The Broken Wolf is Perrin who is a wolfbrother. That addresses the Wolf part. Perrin's death would cause cause great sorrow among his his followers and shake their will to fight on.

Lastly, Moridin (whose name means Death) has known Perrin as Ishamael. Ishy visited Perrin, Mat and Rand in dreams multiple times in tEoTW.

 

This addresses the part of Death knowing the Broken Wolf before he falls.

 

The last part seems somewhat iffy to me as Moridin hasn't known Perrin as Moridin. Also, it would be somewhat strange to call Perrin Fallen Blacksmith in one sentence and Broken Wolf in the very next sentence. But otherwise this is a good theory IMO. It addresses all the requirements of the prophecy concerning the Broken Wolf which very few other theories do.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Like I implied earlier, the "Broken Wolf" would most likely be a wolfbrother.

 

that seems like the most straightforward explanation.

 

yea, and, just means, yes, and, or as you said higher up the thread, in continuation. it doesn't signify a change of subject. it is vague enough to leave room for other interpretations, but the language used really doesn't direct anything else.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Sometimes I really wish DM had the rep system activated.

What's that?

Malazan has a similar Invision version to DM I think. Look here, in the WoT sub-form, someone's random TOM review. There are little + and - buttons in the bottom right hand corner of every post. I think the -rep option can be disabled, though in general it doesn't seem to necessary - most people use it for +rep unless someone is trolling. You can leave a little message saying why you thought the post was awesome/horrible. It's essentially worthless and no one makes a huge deal out of it (total rep points and messages can be viewed on a person's profile but they're not really in-your-face, so it's not something people really obsess over). But I find myself wishing you guys had a rep system all the time. We have one at Theoryland too, though it's different, and Tam has neg rep disabled (again, mostly unnecessary in my experience - he just didn't want to risk rep-wars).

 

that seems like the kind of thing that would make it easier to shout down quieter, or less popular, posters. people can make their own decisions about what posts they like and dislike without the peer pressure attack.

 

i would not want to see something like that. i'm anxious enough.

[mb]

Like I implied earlier, the "Broken Wolf" would most likely be a wolfbrother.

You really should post full details of your theory as it's actually one of the best ones I've seen thus far. One liners like this won't help your cause as they don't address all the relevant parts of the prophecy:

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring

fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

From your various posts I believe your full theory is as follows.

 

The Broken Wolf is Perrin who is a wolfbrother. That addresses the Wolf part. Perrin's death would cause cause great sorrow among his his followers and shake their will to fight on.

Lastly, Moridin (whose name means Death) has known Perrin as Ishamael. Ishy visited Perrin, Mat and Rand in dreams multiple times in tEoTW.

 

This addresses the part of Death knowing the Broken Wolf before he falls.

 

The last part seems somewhat iffy to me as Moridin hasn't known Perrin as Moridin. Also, it would be somewhat strange to call Perrin Fallen Blacksmith in one sentence and Broken Wolf in the very next sentence. But otherwise this is a good theory IMO. It addresses all the requirements of the prophecy concerning the Broken Wolf which very few other theories do.

Most of those were my main points. Though I have not decided on an interpretation of "his destruction".

 

Like another told, "his destruction" could mean his death or that he would cause destruction.

If the later, his wolf-like tendencies might relate to that.

If the former, his followers could be hesitant to fight on. Though if it means his death, it would need to be after he gains Saldaea's throne (Broken Crown Viewing); or he would need to be resurrected sometime after death.

[herid]

Like I implied earlier, the "Broken Wolf" would most likely be a wolfbrother.

You really should post full details of your theory as it's actually one of the best ones I've seen thus far. One liners like this won't help your cause as they don't address all the relevant parts of the prophecy:

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and

be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring

fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

 

From your various posts I believe your full theory is as follows.

 

The Broken Wolf is Perrin who is a wolfbrother. That addresses the Wolf part. Perrin's death would cause cause great sorrow among his his followers and shake their will to fight on.

Lastly, Moridin (whose name means Death) has known Perrin as Ishamael. Ishy visited Perrin, Mat and Rand in dreams multiple times in tEoTW.

 

This addresses the part of Death knowing the Broken Wolf before he falls.

 

The last part seems somewhat iffy to me as Moridin hasn't known Perrin as Moridin. Also, it would be somewhat strange to call Perrin Fallen Blacksmith in one sentence and Broken Wolf in the very next sentence. But otherwise this is a good theory IMO. It addresses all the requirements of the prophecy concerning the Broken Wolf which very few other theories do.

Most of those were my main points. Though I have not decided on an interpretation of "his destruction".

 

Like another told, "his destruction" could mean his death or that he would cause destruction.

If the later, his wolf-like tendencies might relate to that.

If the former, his followers could be hesitant to fight on. Though if it means his death, it would need to be after he gains Saldaea's throne (Broken Crown Viewing); or he would need to be resurrected sometime after death.

thanks for the clarification. those are good points about Perrin gaining the Throne of Saldaea. Also, the same viewing mentions trees flowering all around Perrin. Whatever this means exactly it's not likely to occur before the DO is defeated. But BS promised us a lot of balefire in aMoL so who knows, Perrin might be due for a death and resurrection of the kind Mat had in tFoH.

[Terez]

Like I implied earlier, the "Broken Wolf" would most likely be a wolfbrother.

You say that as if it is some great revelation rather than what most people already assumed. Many of us disagree.

 

that seems like the kind of thing that would make it easier to shout down quieter, or less popular, posters.

It's not, in any way. It actually gives you a chance to show appreciation for quieter, less popular posters.

[yoniy0]

From your various posts I believe your full theory is as follows.

 

The Broken Wolf is Perrin who is a wolfbrother. That addresses the Wolf part. Perrin's death would cause cause great sorrow among his his followers and shake their will to fight on.

Lastly, Moridin (whose name means Death) has known Perrin as Ishamael. Ishy visited Perrin, Mat and Rand in dreams multiple times in tEoTW.

 

This addresses the part of Death knowing the Broken Wolf before he falls.

 

The last part seems somewhat iffy to me as Moridin hasn't known Perrin as Moridin. Also, it would be somewhat strange to call Perrin Fallen Blacksmith in one sentence and Broken Wolf in the very next sentence. But otherwise this is a good theory IMO. It addresses all the requirements of the prophecy concerning the Broken Wolf which very few other theories do.

I just thought of another objection (you know my previous objections to this idea, most of which @herid summarized above). The fact that Moridin and Graendal were reading into this prophecy something that wasn't really there was a plot element of ToM. Having the same thing they assumed would happen simply occur in AMoL takes away from that effect.

[Mandro]

random thing, but I think that whyle terez is a great reference, she is wrong in this..

[Terez]

Is that just a drive-by opinion, or are you going to make an argument?

[mb]

Like I implied earlier, the "Broken Wolf" would most likely be a wolfbrother.

You say that as if it is some great revelation rather than what most people already assumed. Many of us disagree.

If not a wolfbrother, then I think someone that has some kind of connection with wolves. To me, the "Wolf" part of the title aught not be ignored.

 

Either side could be wrong. The "correct" interpretation would right now be known by just the people that have access to the notes.

[Terez]

Like I implied earlier, the "Broken Wolf" would most likely be a wolfbrother.

You say that as if it is some great revelation rather than what most people already assumed. Many of us disagree.

If not a wolfbrother, then I think someone that has some kind of connection with wolves. To me, the "Wolf" part of the title aught not be ignored.

We don't ignore it, though. We just don't think the most obvious interpretation is correct. To me, the other requirements for the Broken Wolf are not only more important but also more telling.

[mb]

With many prophecies in this series, "obvious" interpretations often seem accurate. Also with the other Dark Prophecy.

[Terez]

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But the wolfbrother bit is only 'obvious' for the wolf part. The rest is obviously Rand.

[mb]

By "the rest", you are referring to the words up through the end of the stanza?

If so, there could actually be many characters that could fulfill them; depending on how each phrase is interpreted. So there would be no "obvious" character for those.

 

Titles I place equal significance with other parts of prophecy.

[Terez]

The interpretation bit goes for all of it, though. Rand is the obvious one for the rest of it because:

 

1. He has known Death more intimately than anyone else in the books, either way the word is interpreted.

2. His destruction will certainly sap the will of the people more than anyone else in the books.

3. He is the only character we know for sure is going to die.

[Durinax]

I dont know Ituralde could die, he is known as the Little Wolf. plus a great general falling to the shadow would decrease moral

[Sleeper]

I agree that it's got to be Rand, or possibly Perrin (personally I think it's Rand).

 

I just don't think that a great general dying is a big enough thing to be mentioned in prophecy. This is prophecy we're talking about, it's gonna have to be a whole lot of weeping and wailing to merit being included.

 

Besides, it would be just like RJ to throw us off the scent by calling Rand a term that he's rarely used in reference to him.

[DocBean]

I agree that it's got to be Rand, or possibly Perrin (personally I think it's Rand).

 

I just don't think that a great general dying is a big enough thing to be mentioned in prophecy. This is prophecy we're talking about, it's gonna have to be a whole lot of weeping and wailing to merit being included.

 

Besides, it would be just like RJ to throw us off the scent by calling Rand a term that he's rarely used in reference to him.

 

Perrin's death is easily important enough to merit prophecy.

 

Look at it this way.

Prophecies point at the most essential elements that are going to happen in the future.

What is more essential then Perrin saving the Dragon from an ultimate death?

 

Now also consider, at least some Darkfriends have misinterpreted the prophecy and consider killing Perrin the key to success.

So if the Forsaken (Midnight Towers) can take out the Broken Wolf (Perrin) then they're feeling pretty good about themselves.

"Hey, We've helped fulfill the dark prophecy!!! WooHoo! Things are looking good now lads!"

 

However, in doing so they've just given Rand an ally in his fight for his eternal life.

 

 

We've also seen a prophecy that points at Rand sacrificing his friends - plural (maybe Lan and Perrin). That same prophecy mentions two paths, one death beyond dying, the other eternal life.

We know that death beyond dying cannot mean balefire, it can only mean death in T'A'R. So there HAS to be a chance that Rand will die there.

[mb]

The interpretation bit goes for all of it, though. Rand is the obvious one for the rest of it because:

 

1. He has known Death more intimately than anyone else in the books, either way the word is interpreted.

2. His destruction will certainly sap the will of the people more than anyone else in the books.

3. He is the only character we know for sure is going to die.

Any of the Forsaken might be more intimate to Moridin than Rand. And all of them probably saw more deaths than Rand. Also, some of them died.

On the second point "more than anyone else" seems to be just opinion.

That third point seems to assume that "his destruction" means "his death". "causing destruction" can be an alternative meaning.

 

Back to first point, Rand might be the most intimate of the Light sided characters right now; but that could change by the time this prophecy is fulfilled.

[Terez]

The interpretation bit goes for all of it, though. Rand is the obvious one for the rest of it because:

 

1. He has known Death more intimately than anyone else in the books, either way the word is interpreted.

2. His destruction will certainly sap the will of the people more than anyone else in the books.

3. He is the only character we know for sure is going to die.

Any of the Forsaken might be more intimate to Moridin than Rand.

Not even slightly. Rand and Moridin are merging - becoming the same person, essentially.

 

On the second point "more than anyone else" seems to be just opinion.

Only with the vaguest sort of logic. Rand is their only hope of defeating the Dark One; if he dies before he saves the world, then they will believe that they have no chance of winning. IT'S THE END OF THE WORLD!!!!!1 No one else's death would compare. Not even close.

 

That third point seems to assume that "his destruction" means "his death". "causing destruction" can be an alternative meaning.

It could, but unlike previous semantics debates, the fact that 'and his destruction' is followed by 'shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers' suggests otherwise. In any case, the alternate explanation still applies best to Rand. You could say he was consumed by the Midnight Towers when the link was forged in Shadar Logoth, and his destruction as Dark Rand fulfills the prophecy. But I don't think that's it.

[Sleeper]

I agree that it's got to be Rand, or possibly Perrin (personally I think it's Rand).

 

I just don't think that a great general dying is a big enough thing to be mentioned in prophecy. This is prophecy we're talking about, it's gonna have to be a whole lot of weeping and wailing to merit being included.

 

Besides, it would be just like RJ to throw us off the scent by calling Rand a term that he's rarely used in reference to him.

 

Perrin's death is easily important enough to merit prophecy.

 

Look at it this way.

Prophecies point at the most essential elements that are going to happen in the future.

What is more essential then Perrin saving the Dragon from an ultimate death?

 

Now also consider, at least some Darkfriends have misinterpreted the prophecy and consider killing Perrin the key to success.

So if the Forsaken (Midnight Towers) can take out the Broken Wolf (Perrin) then they're feeling pretty good about themselves.

"Hey, We've helped fulfill the dark prophecy!!! WooHoo! Things are looking good now lads!"

 

However, in doing so they've just given Rand an ally in his fight for his eternal life.

 

 

We've also seen a prophecy that points at Rand sacrificing his friends - plural (maybe Lan and Perrin). That same prophecy mentions two paths, one death beyond dying, the other eternal life.

We know that death beyond dying cannot mean balefire, it can only mean death in T'A'R. So there HAS to be a chance that Rand will die there.

I agree that it's either Perrin or Rand, I just don't think it's a great general, as some here have speculated.