Tuons invulnerability

[Durinax]

"He intended one for Olver and the other for Tuon, once he could find her." Into the Void ToM

This is mat talking about the foxhead copies.

 

So if mat gets to Tuon before egwene and the super girls can convince her to start channelling she wont be able too. He also wont be able to get her to start channelling. And I imagine (my speculation) she wont be able to hold a damane anymore.

 

So this could spell doom for the theory that the practice of damane will end due to Tuon channelling

[mb]

From my understanding, the foxhead medallions (both original & copies) do not prevent a wearer from channeling. They I take only prevent the wearer from being affected by direct weaves (that other channelers did).

[Finnssss22]

From my understanding, the foxhead medallions (both original & copies) do not prevent a wearer from channeling. They I take only prevent the wearer from being affected by direct weaves (that other channelers did).

 

Mb, aren't you the one that hasn't read ToM yet?

Do you really want to know?

[mb]

Like I told in various threads, I am waiting for the paperback version.

 

I was mistaken. From reading the pages at Encyclopaedia, only the copies prevent channeling.

[AvroChris]

From my understanding, the foxhead medallions (both original & copies) do not prevent a wearer from channeling. They I take only prevent the wearer from being affected by direct weaves (that other channelers did).

 

Mb, aren't you the one that hasn't read ToM yet?

Do you really want to know?

 

The problem is, when someone says something like this you just know that you got it wrong :P

[yoniy0]

Yes, well, since there were no copies prior to ToM, I really don't understand where @mb was coming from. Listen, @mb. Amazon have added a 'lend' option in their Kindle books. ToM is eligible. All you need to do is download Kindle for PC and associate it with your Amazon.com account (you can open one for free if you don't have one yet). I'll gladly lend my copy to you, just PM me your account name (or use my @DM address below). You'll have 14 days to go over it (I don't mind lending it for longer, but they have a restriction. Perhaps someone else around here might consent to lending you their copy as well if you need more time).

[mb]

I do not have a Kindle. And they cost more than my current income. Not sure if I would get one when I do have enough.

I seen the paperback available for preorder at Barnes & Noble site; might preorder soon.

[yoniy0]

I do not have a Kindle. And they cost more than my current income.

They are rather costly, but you didn't read my post carefully enough. You can download their PC/Mac application free of charge, and read my lent copy on your computer. Might not be the most comfortable choice (though I found increasing font size and choosing brown letters over a beige background greatly improves the experience), but it beats not reading ToM until the paperback comes out.

[tkroll]

I do not have a Kindle. And they cost more than my current income. Not sure if I would get one when I do have enough.

I seen the paperback available for preorder at Barnes & Noble site; might preorder soon.

 

Check out amazon's audible store- you might score a deal just for trying it out. I actually got Towers of Midnight and Eye of the World free from there and got the Great Hunt for five bucks. It takes some time to download and a long time to listen to but it was cheap and really is worth the normal price too.

[yoniy0]

I do not have a Kindle. And they cost more than my current income. Not sure if I would get one when I do have enough.

I seen the paperback available for preorder at Barnes & Noble site; might preorder soon.

Check out amazon's audible store- you might score a deal just for trying it out. I actually got Towers of Midnight and Eye of the World free from there and got the Great Hunt for five bucks. It takes some time to download and a long time to listen to but it was cheap and really is worth the normal price too.

I used their introduction deals to get ToM early and cheap (shipping the hardcover to where I am would've cost more than I was willing to pay and take several weeks to boot, and they didn't release the ebook until late Jan'10), but I found that it wasn't for me. Listening to it skewed my perception of the story. I'd do it again rather than go without, but I'd pick the ebook over the audio book every day of the week.

[Durinax]

well this isnt quite the conversation I thought it would be....

[herid]

"He intended one for Olver and the other for Tuon, once he could find her." Into the Void ToM

This is mat talking about the foxhead copies.

 

So if mat gets to Tuon before egwene and the super girls can convince her to start channelling she wont be able too. He also wont be able to get her to start channelling. And I imagine (my speculation) she wont be able to hold a damane anymore.

 

So this could spell doom for the theory that the practice of damane will end due to Tuon channelling

I think there are too many ifs here to doom any theories but something like this might possibly come into play. But even then all Tuon would have to do is take the medallion off. Mat should certainly tell her about all the properties of the medallion and Elayne told him that the copies are not perfect. It's not specified if she told him about the exact limitations but she should have. if she did then the scenario you describe is unlikely. If she didn't then perhaps. I do like the question you raise about what would happen if Tuon tries to control a damane while wearing the medallion. I'm not sure what the result would be but I suspect that she might still be able to do it. She would not be channeling herself.

[Mardragon]

I do like the question you raise about what would happen if Tuon tries to control a damane while wearing the medallion. I'm not sure what the result would be but I suspect that she might still be able to do it. She would not be channeling herself.

 

Since the a'dam causes a form of linking, I'd imagine it still requires weaves to touch her though, albeit through the a'dam. I'd imagine the medallion would deflect the weave just as it would normally, effectively breaking the connection.

[Durinax]

Elayne did not tell him the limitations of the medallions just that they are imperfect.

 

I just thoguht of another question, what if the seanchan start to mass produce them? we know they have the capabilities (adam factories referenced when egwene was captured)

[Mandro]

I actually mentioned in one of the other threads (buried, I don't remember which one, since the merger) that one of the ways that mat might win the freedom of the damane, or at least prevent the culling of new ones, is by giving tuon, who's favorite hobbies is training horses and damane. With the medalian, it would be impossible for her to deny who she is.

 

Something I'm curious about, because tuon has touched the source so many times in her life, her basic strenghth SHOULD have been felt by the AS while traveling with Luca. What is Tuons Potential?

[herid]

I do like the question you raise about what would happen if Tuon tries to control a damane while wearing the medallion. I'm not sure what the result would be but I suspect that she might still be able to do it. She would not be channeling herself.

 

Since the a'dam causes a form of linking, I'd imagine it still requires weaves to touch her though, albeit through the a'dam. I'd imagine the medallion would deflect the weave just as it would normally, effectively breaking the connection.

this certainly a possibility. the reason I'm not sure about this is that an a'dam forces a very special kind of linking where the sul'dam is not actually embracing saidar herself. A similar question would be what would happen if the sul'dam is shielded but the damane is not. Somebody ought to ask BS about it.

 

Elayne did not tell him the limitations of the medallions just that they are imperfect.

we don't know the details of their conversation. I would find it quite strange if Elayne just told him that the copies are imperfect but didn't explain what that meant. And certainly, if I were Mat I would definitely demand an explanation if this was all she said.

 

I just thoguht of another question, what if the seanchan start to mass produce them? we know they have the capabilities (adam factories referenced when egwene was captured)

both BS and RJ said that the Seanchan can only make a'dam.

 

Q. Mr. Jordan stated that the Seanchan only know how to make one kind of ter'angreal. Then there are the Bloodknives' rings. Is this a departure from Jordan's notes, or a discrepancy in a past answer?

A. Neither. The Seanchan only know how to make a'dam.

They would certainly made copies of Bloodknives rings if they could. Since Elayne's talent seems to be pretty rare and the seanchan can mass produce a'dam I take that to mean that a'dam are particularly easy to make. It was the very first thing that Elayne made. So I don't see them mass producing other ter'angreal, most especially not the foxheads. Even Elayne can't copy those well and they would have to make copies of the inferior copies (I assume that mat will keep the original to himself).

[Sharaman]

Can the foxhead copy ensure that any female wearing it is not held by an A'dam (since it somehow blocks channeling ability), while she retains the ability to be a sul'dam (because she has the gene)?

In that case, Fortuona will love it. first it frees her from any lingering fear that she would fall foul of the a'dam.

Second, it solves the entire Sul'dam channeler issue that could tear their power structure apart. Using foxhead copies, damane can continue to be held as slaves while sul'dam can strut around without fear wearing the foxheads. Surely damane who are talented enough to make a a'dam can be tasked to mass-produce foxhead copies. It would also help us make sense of the Avi prophesy where the damane-sul'dam system obviously persists in the Raven empire.

[capuga]

Something I'm curious about, because tuon has touched the source so many times in her life, her basic strenghth SHOULD have been felt by the AS while traveling with Luca. What is Tuons Potential?

 

Tuon has not touched the source at all. She trains damane, but from all indications she has not been doing it long enough to be held by the a'dam. Regardless, even being sul'dam long enough to be held by an a'dam is not touching the source yourself. The sul'dam traveling with Mat could see the weaves and be held by the a'dam but they do not actually touch the source themselves until they panic and channel the sparks inside the wagon. It's not until this point that anyone would be able to feel their potential.

[Finnssss22]

Something I'm curious about, because tuon has touched the source so many times in her life, her basic strenghth SHOULD have been felt by the AS while traveling with Luca. What is Tuons Potential?

 

Tuon has not touched the source at all. She trains damane, but from all indications she has not been doing it long enough to be held by the a'dam. Regardless, even being sul'dam long enough to be held by an a'dam is not touching the source yourself. The sul'dam traveling with Mat could see the weaves and be held by the a'dam but they do not actually touch the source themselves until they panic and channel the sparks inside the wagon. It's not until this point that anyone would be able to feel their potential.

 

Tuon can see the weaves though. She watches the weaves melt around Mat in her wagon (KoD chptr 9) and asks him how he did that.

From all indications and Aes Sedai speculation on the sul'dam, it appears Tuon is right on the cusp of channeling.

 

Also, I always half wondered about the fight in the street after leaving the Hell in Mandarin (KoD chptr 11), specifically Thom's comments.

Were his comments about "seeing things that can't be" directed at Selucia because he just saw her kick some major ass or did Tuon channel during the fight?

[Sharaman]

Mat's foxhead didn't grow cold so no, Precious didn't channel in Maderin. Selucia did kick butt and so, Thom was letting her know he would keep his mouth shut.

RJ did say that Tuon isn't going to be held by the A'dam on the post-KoD tour. She probably hasn't used the A'dam too much since then, though she finds it relaxing to train damane.

[herid]

Can the foxhead copy ensure that any female wearing it is not held by an A'dam (since it somehow blocks channeling ability), while she retains the ability to be a sul'dam (because she has the gene)?

possibly, although it's far from clear. An a'dam can hold a damane even when she is not channeling so I'm not sure what the effect would be in such situation.

Second, it solves the entire Sul'dam channeler issue that could tear their power structure apart. Using foxhead copies, damane can continue to be held as slaves while sul'dam can strut around without fear wearing the foxheads. Surely damane who are talented enough to make a a'dam can be tasked to mass-produce foxhead copies. It would also help us make sense of the Avi prophesy where the damane-sul'dam system obviously persists in the Raven empire.

Whatever comes I'm sure it won't be that. Practically nothing from Avi's visions (except for the defeat of the DO and the Peace of the Dragon in some form) will come to pass. The visions were just a cautionary tale of what will happen if things go on as they are and the Aiel don't change.

 

I also don't understand why wearing the foxheads would solve anything even if the Seanchan can mass produce them which they definitely can't IMO. If they could mass produce such things they would have definitely produced more bloodknives rings. But even if they can that would still be giving out foxheads to potential channelers for voluntary use. why not give them to the damane then? there is not a lot of difference.

[Sharaman]

Can the foxhead copy ensure that any female wearing it is not held by an A'dam (since it somehow blocks channeling ability), while she retains the ability to be a sul'dam (because she has the gene)?

possibly, although it's far from clear. An a'dam can hold a damane even when she is not channeling so I'm not sure what the effect would be in such situation.

Second, it solves the entire Sul'dam channeler issue that could tear their power structure apart. Using foxhead copies, damane can continue to be held as slaves while sul'dam can strut around without fear wearing the foxheads. Surely damane who are talented enough to make a a'dam can be tasked to mass-produce foxhead copies. It would also help us make sense of the Avi prophesy where the damane-sul'dam system obviously persists in the Raven empire.

Whatever comes I'm sure it won't be that. Practically nothing from Avi's visions (except for the defeat of the DO and the Peace of the Dragon in some form) will come to pass. The visions were just a cautionary tale of what will happen if things go on as they are and the Aiel don't change.

 

I also don't understand why wearing the foxheads would solve anything even if the Seanchan can mass produce them which they definitely can't IMO. If they could mass produce such things they would have definitely produced more bloodknives rings. But even if they can that would still be giving out foxheads to potential channelers for voluntary use. why not give them to the damane then? there is not a lot of difference.

If it protects the suldam from counter-attack and allows the damane to channel at the same time, there is an advantage to having the artefact in industrial quantities. They may never have tried seriously to produce bloodknives - of necessity, those are worn by small special suicide squads and huge quantities not required. The foxheads could help many thousands.

Anyway, this is all speculative - we have no clue what the exact effect of wearing the flawed copies would be on a forced circle.

[FarShainMael]

Speaking of forced circles.. The 'foxhead' copies that Elayne made weren't actually shaped like foxes' heads, were they? One was a silver disc embossed with a rose, IIRC. Now - Suppose Elayne made some 'foxheads' in the shape of a'dams, and managed to introduce them into Seanchan hands somehow.. That would cause a bit of trouble!

[Val Mickey]

Devious, FSM. Devious.

[yoniy0]

After graciously supplying the Shadow with a copy, I'm sure Elayne would be thrilled to learn Mat plans on giving one to Tuon. I'm actually quite surprised she didn't pry that out of him - she did set her mind to the task.