Egwene, Min, Tuon/The Seanchan

[rgiorgetti]

Hi all,

 

I'm a newbie to this forum, but certainly not to WoT which I have followed since the books first came out. So now that we are finally coming to the end (bittersweet), and I am ALMOST finished with ToM, I feel the need to vent/commiserate with other readers. At times through this long journey I have hated some characters, then grown to love them, then fallen out of love with them, etc. etc. Currently I am really over Egwene, and Min. And I think I just hate Tuon because I hate the Seanchan and their a'dams. Grrr.

 

Egwene - [sorry, I just wrote this whole rant about her but then pressed that magic key on my keyboard that somehow erases everything I just wrote so this is the truncated version]. Does anyone else hate how she thinks she is now the font of all wisdom and that she wants to "control" Rand? Ugh. I mean it was pretty cool what she did to become Amyrlin, defending The Tower against the Seanchan, but ever since she has become "Mother" I cannot handle her anymore. Sad because she was one of my favorite characters originally.

 

Min - Does anyone else hate that Min just gets to have Rand all to herself? I just find her to be such a useless character. I hate that she is bonded to Rand. Poor Elayne and Aviendha. Okay, so this is obviously a very female perspective. I don't think I always hated Min. But now I just think she is useless and annoying.

 

The Seanchan! - I am wondering how the hec Matt is going to work out being married into a culture that uses a'dam and wants to conquer seemingly for the sake of conquering. It is true that the Seanchan seem to treat their conquered peoples well (perhaps, like the Romans in some ways) but who wants to be conquered! And the way they treat the "damanes" makes my blood boil. Except for one specific instance which was I was totally fine with, haha. :-)

 

Okay, sorry if this was horribly mundane to read. I don't have anyone else to vent to about these characters so hopefully there are some readers out there who agree? I'm sure disagree too!

 

A'ight, off to finish ToM...

[jwillis7]

yea i think egwene's amyrliness has gone to her head. i cant wait for rand to put her in her place again

[Androl]

No need to appoligise. My sentiments are nearly the same.

 

Mostly I like the Egg, I know that she has to be strong and all to whip the WT to battle force in just a few weeks, when they should have been headed there for years.

 

But her attatude about Rand and Nye really irked me. Rand because in the previous book she dredded down Eliada for trying to control him, then she does things that are not the same but still incorrect to me. She should at least try to see what he is thinking. Not be trying to plot against him.

 

Then with Nye - she did not even scold the AS that were testing her. I would have sent them for pentences that would have made a WO weap.

 

At least I am pretty sure that she (Egg) will get hers in the next book. She does not need a lot, but she needs some smackdown.

 

 

 

I really like many things about Tuon, and even the Seanchan, but the ONLY thing that would make me feel that she got her just deserts would to have her wear an A'dam for two or three months. But, I know that this will not happen. The Egg is nothing compared to Tuon.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Egween is exactly what she needs to be. But I know where this thread is going so due to my self imposed ban, I'm out of here!

[Sleeper]

Yeah, I personally am on the Hate-Egwene bandwagon as well. She was good in the beginning of the series, but she's become truly Aes Sedai, and the Aes Sedai are the biggest bunch of bumbling idiots I've ever seen. She's one of them now, arrogant, ignorant, and controlling.

 

I actually quite like Min. I find her relationship to be the most authentic. Also, I don't think she has him all to herself, it's just the fact that Elayne and Aviendha have huge responsibilities that they have to place in front of their relationships, while Min's huge responsibility is her relationship. She had to keep him human for the latter part of the series until ToM. She's also one of the few people in the WOT that distinguishes between helping Rand and controlling him, which I like.

[Mandro]

 

Then with Nye - she did not even scold the AS that were testing her. I would have sent them for pentences that would have made a WO weap.

 

Not just that, she took active part in the torture of her friend, one of the most powerful channelers, the most experienced combatant in the WT, the one who was already chose to stand beside the dragon at TG. So much so that sylviana lashed out at everyone once Nyn returned. That week ass "No, I thank you." crap at the end was weak tea. At best all of those who "ARE Aes Sedai." are completely untrustworthy even if they are your "friends." I would never trust eg again, she reduced her authority with that in my opinion rather than validating it. Eg caved in like the new kid in the mean girls club, and she delivered full bore.

[Durinax]

egwene - I hate how everyone falls in line with her so quickly, and her ruthless ambition (after all she tortures nyn to protect her secret sneaking into tar, and tortures her again to prove she is tough and doesnt favor people)

 

seanchan - their social inequality between noble and commoner, I have little to no problem with the damane

 

Min - I hate how she thinks of herself as capable to defend herself against anything and thus rand gets his hand blown off

[capuga]

If you go look for a couple threads on Egwene you will see that many people (including myself) share your dislike (to put it mildly) of her so I won't rehash that here. What I will do is post a link to a thread were another poster commented on their dislike for Min and I defended Min. Figured this is easier than rehashing all my arguments here again.

 

Min hate thread

[plague fiend]

I think what your venting is what a lot of readers have been expressing on this forum. Maybe a different character, or situations. I thought that the lack of personality change with the women concerning their experiences, good or bad, was a unbelievable. It cause me to put down the series a couple of times.

 

I started to see some changes with Egwene and it perked my interest again. For all the wisdom she has gained, she lacks some of the most basic of its quality's.

 

Elayne, there is little believable to her character of late, but I think it is reflected best in the CoT. Soooo much wasted writing. If this type of writing would have continued it would take another 6 books to wrap up the story.

 

Min is one of Rands connections to his sanity, a big one. So to say that she is useless is wrong. It's a lot of mushy stuff, but she has contributed to the story in more ways than one.

 

I don't know if you've noticed, but to most of the Aes Sedai a Warder, if not everybody else, is property to control* and a tool to use. They don't treat them like animals, but treat them less than human. Seanchan are the same way regarding their Damane, true they do treat them like show horses and children.

 

* The biggest problem with the Aes Sedai, and some others, is that they STILL haven't learned that Control is an Illusion. Remember this phrase when you think about the books.

[rgiorgetti]

If you go look for a couple threads on Egwene you will see that many people (including myself) share your dislike (to put it mildly) of her so I won't rehash that here. What I will do is post a link to a thread were another poster commented on their dislike for Min and I defended Min. Figured this is easier than rehashing all my arguments here again.

 

Min hate thread

 

Oooooh! Min hate thread! Thank you for this awesomeness. :-)

 

Yes, I understand that she has been essential to keeping Rand sane. I just don't like her. Off to the thread...

[rgiorgetti]

I think what your venting is what a lot of readers have been expressing on this forum. Maybe a different character, or situations. I thought that the lack of personality change with the women concerning their experiences, good or bad, was a unbelievable. It cause me to put down the series a couple of times.

 

I started to see some changes with Egwene and it perked my interest again. For all the wisdom she has gained, she lacks some of the most basic of its quality's.

 

Elayne, there is little believable to her character of late, but I think it is reflected best in the CoT. Soooo much wasted writing. If this type of writing would have continued it would take another 6 books to wrap up the story.

 

Min is one of Rands connections to his sanity, a big one. So to say that she is useless is wrong. It's a lot of mushy stuff, but she has contributed to the story in more ways than one.

 

I don't know if you've noticed, but to most of the Aes Sedai a Warder, if not everybody else, is property to control* and a tool to use. They don't treat them like animals, but treat them less than human. Seanchan are the same way regarding their Damane, true they do treat them like show horses and children.

 

* The biggest problem with the Aes Sedai, and some others, is that they STILL haven't learned that Control is an Illusion. Remember this phrase when you think about the books.

 

Yes, I absolutely agree about he Aes Sedai and their need to control. It's intolerable. I think that may be one of the reasons I hate Egwene so much, because she just fell right in line with the "control-methodology" instead of being a different kind of Amyrlin. For that matter, I can't even stand how the Aes Sedai treat themselves with all of this ridiculous spanking, etc. I mean, for real? But I digress...

[capuga]

If you go look for a couple threads on Egwene you will see that many people (including myself) share your dislike (to put it mildly) of her so I won't rehash that here. What I will do is post a link to a thread were another poster commented on their dislike for Min and I defended Min. Figured this is easier than rehashing all my arguments here again.

 

Min hate thread

 

Oooooh! Min hate thread! Thank you for this awesomeness. :-)

 

Yes, I understand that she has been essential to keeping Rand sane. I just don't like her. Off to the thread...

 

Well I hope my arguments in that thread have lead you to view Min in a bit more positive way. I've always liked her.

[PhoenixUK]

I can see why people are annoyed at egwene's attitude. i think to some extent she has been infected by other aes sedai's attitude to Rand. Don't forget though, she has hardly seen him for months, but has been hearing all sorts of awful stories about him possibly compelling aes sedai and bonding them against their will, and how unstable he has become. She might also be worried about his spending time with cadsuane (doesn't suian at one point worry that cadsuane might be black ajah?).

 

I did love that line where Egwene says Rand must take responsibility for Asha'man forcibly bonding aes sedai, and Nynaeve asks if egwene will take responsibility for what aes sedai did to rand by beating and torturing him. I think Egwene needs nynaeve as an advisor - loved that short secret discussion they had after Nynaeve's Testing, where Nynaeve questions what the Tower has become, how they are more worried about the Tower than the people of the world. She has kept a better view of the world than Egwene has.

[Sleeper]

I don't know if you've noticed, but to most of the Aes Sedai a Warder, if not everybody else, is property to control* and a tool to use. They don't treat them like animals, but treat them less than human. Seanchan are the same way regarding their Damane, true they do treat them like show horses and children.

 

* The biggest problem with the Aes Sedai, and some others, is that they STILL haven't learned that Control is an Illusion. Remember this phrase when you think about the books.

Yeah, that's been bugging me during my last re-read. IIRC Myrelle kinda regards Warders as well trained dogs. Even Elayne, who's one of the more sensible Aes Sedai (hardly a compliment) has talked about making Rand obey her when he becomes her Warder.

 

Oh well.

[Mandro]

I can see why people are annoyed at egwene's attitude. i think to some extent she has been infected by other aes sedai's attitude to Rand. Don't forget though, she has hardly seen him for months, but has been hearing all sorts of awful stories about him possibly compelling aes sedai and bonding them against their will, and how unstable he has become. She might also be worried about his spending time with cadsuane (doesn't suian at one point worry that cadsuane might be black ajah?).

 

I did love that line where Egwene says Rand must take responsibility for Asha'man forcibly bonding aes sedai, and Nynaeve asks if egwene will take responsibility for what aes sedai did to rand by beating and torturing him. I think Egwene needs nynaeve as an advisor - loved that short secret discussion they had after Nynaeve's Testing, where Nynaeve questions what the Tower has become, how they are more worried about the Tower than the people of the world. She has kept a better view of the world than Egwene has.

 

Nynaeve is still Eg's wisdom, only this time it's not as a position, but as someone who posesses something that eg lacks.

 

Egg has savvy, not wisdom.

[TheAngryDruid]

I tend to be less Rand centric than most on here, and therefore don't see anyone who disagrees with Rand (he is often wrong), tries to guide him (he could have used it sometimes), or thinks he is unstable (we was until the end of tGS).

 

Sorry, waltzing in and announcing you are going to break the seals is going to be opposed by 99% of the folk in Randland. And he knew this, it is why he did it. Egwene is doing what she needs to do.

 

As for Min. I don't know how she is useless. She's kept Rand from completely losing his mind for books on end. She's the only one actually trying to figure out how to win the LB. Hardly useless. Not to mention those visions have come in handy a time or two.

 

I'm with you on Tuon. Can't stand her. But other characters have made huge comebacks. Look at Faile, Galad, and Gawyn. And Perrin. I hope Tuon follows suit.

 

For me, I was mostly disappointed with Rand in ToM, and to a lesser extent, Egwene. Both had a month, and no help for Lan? Or the rest of the Borderlands (not in Maradon). Or nothing at the BT? Maybe it was just the poor writing, or the structure, but both didn't seem to do much, despite whining about all they had to do. We've got about 5-7 days from Rand, and Egwene focused entirely on Mesaana and the WT, and didn't do beans for anyone outside Tar Valon (typical AS).

[anotherfingolfin]

Egg has savvy, not wisdom.

 

and that's what really counts in politics, sadly, isn't it? :/ i can't believe some who view her political success as vindication of her awesomeness fail to realise this distinction.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Egg has savvy, not wisdom.

 

and that's what really counts in politics, sadly, isn't it? :/ i can't believe some who view her political success as vindication of her awesomeness fail to realise this distinction.

 

The problem I have with a statement like this as it relates to characters doing things that readers feel are unwise, stupid, mean, or whatever the find objectionable is the fact the reader is so self righteous that they believe they are correct. Often this may be done because the reader has more information than the character does, or they want the character to act how they would, or make the decision they would, and this is simply a ridiculous way to judge a character.

 

If they don't do what you think is wise maybe you are correct, but then again maybe the character did do the right thing based on their information, personality, and skill sets. Quite often I read people complaining about how a certain character handled a situation and they describe a negative trait in that character and I they are often displaying three same negative trait in their post that the don't like from the character they are complaining about. Or often that person has no clue about leadership and I am certain they would fail miserably if they were put in the same situation.

 

All I ask of a character is to stay true to, well their, character.

 

I would ask a reader to judge a character based on what the character should do given what the characters knows and what their character traits would allow them to do.

 

Also, don't read and post from the back of a high horse, (ok, i'll get off mine).

[plague fiend]

Egg has savvy, not wisdom.

 

and that's what really counts in politics, sadly, isn't it? :/ i can't believe some who view her political success as vindication of her awesomeness fail to realise this distinction.

 

The problem I have with a statement like this as it relates to characters doing things that readers feel are unwise, stupid, mean, or whatever the find objectionable is the fact the reader is so self righteous that they believe they are correct. Often this may be done because the reader has more information than the character does, or they want the character to act how they would, or make the decision they would, and this is simply a ridiculous way to judge a character.

 

If they don't do what you think is wise maybe you are correct, but then again maybe the character did do the right thing based on their information, personality, and skill sets. Quite often I read people complaining about how a certain character handled a situation and they describe a negative trait in that character and I they are often displaying three same negative trait in their post that the don't like from the character they are complaining about. Or often that person has no clue about leadership and I am certain they would fail miserably if they were put in the same situation.

 

All I ask of a character is to stay true to, well their, character.

 

I would ask a reader to judge a character based on what the character should do given what the characters knows and what their character traits would allow them to do.

 

Also, don't read and post from the back of a high horse, (ok, i'll get off mine).

 

When a character doesn't learn from previous experiences and shows poor judgment/wisdom I can accept that. When that same character takes those same experiences and comes to profound decisions, based in wisdom, it is not being true to his/her character. In fact, it should cause the reader to question/complain about what he/she is reading. You might want to reconsider how you used leadership in that sentence.

 

Something to think about. Are you the same person you were when you were 10? Do you still make decisions the same way? Why or why not? Take this answer and apply it to these characters.

 

I do agree with you about how readers can show dislike for character in their posts and that it can unfairly influence their statements.

[Bluedust9]

Hi all,

 

I'm a newbie to this forum, but certainly not to WoT which I have followed since the books first came out. So now that we are finally coming to the end (bittersweet), and I am ALMOST finished with ToM, I feel the need to vent/commiserate with other readers. At times through this long journey I have hated some characters, then grown to love them, then fallen out of love with them, etc. etc. Currently I am really over Egwene, and Min. And I think I just hate Tuon because I hate the Seanchan and their a'dams. Grrr.

 

Egwene - [sorry, I just wrote this whole rant about her but then pressed that magic key on my keyboard that somehow erases everything I just wrote so this is the truncated version]. Does anyone else hate how she thinks she is now the font of all wisdom and that she wants to "control" Rand? Ugh. I mean it was pretty cool what she did to become Amyrlin, defending The Tower against the Seanchan, but ever since she has become "Mother" I cannot handle her anymore. Sad because she was one of my favorite characters originally.

 

Min - Does anyone else hate that Min just gets to have Rand all to herself? I just find her to be such a useless character. I hate that she is bonded to Rand. Poor Elayne and Aviendha. Okay, so this is obviously a very female perspective. I don't think I always hated Min. But now I just think she is useless and annoying.

 

The Seanchan! - I am wondering how the hec Matt is going to work out being married into a culture that uses a'dam and wants to conquer seemingly for the sake of conquering. It is true that the Seanchan seem to treat their conquered peoples well (perhaps, like the Romans in some ways) but who wants to be conquered! And the way they treat the "damanes" makes my blood boil. Except for one specific instance which was I was totally fine with, haha. :-)

 

Okay, sorry if this was horribly mundane to read. I don't have anyone else to vent to about these characters so hopefully there are some readers out there who agree? I'm sure disagree too!

 

A'ight, off to finish ToM...

 

I dunno, I love Min and I think she's the only relationship of the three Rand has that feels it means anything. Elayne is a joke to me, I see nothing there. And he banged Avi in the snow, yippee. but Rand and Min feel like the real couple.

[PhoenixUK]

d Egwene focused entirely on Mesaana and the WT, and didn't do beans for anyone outside Tar Valon (typical AS).

that's a bit unfair to egwene. Her Dream indicated that if mesaana was not dealt with pronto, it would lead to a major disaster. Maybe it's something to do with the upcoming 2nd seanchan attack, or mesaana disabling egwene at a key moment. The tower cannot possibly function at full strength when they have a Forsaken hiding in their midst (especially since they thought the Black Ajah was running around murdering sisters, although tthat turned out to be the seanchan assassins, but they didn't know that).

 

Now that the Shadow is completely uprooted , the united White Tower *should* be a viable force for good once more. As long as they don't do something precipitate at the field of merrilor.

[rgiorgetti]

Min - ok, so perhaps I should not have said she was "useless" - I agree that she has had a fundamental role in keeping Rand sane. Kudos. She is simply not my favorite character - not for any particularly rational reasons - it may be as simple as she doesn't appeal to me. Maybe she's not flashy enough, who knows. Anyways, I don't have to like her. That's ok.

 

Egwene - my problem is not so much that she disagrees with Rand's plan to break the seals - it seems to be radical and counter-intuitive on its face. It's more that she doesn't want to even entertain the possibility that Rand could be right, given his unique insight into history and all the other intangible qualities that may go into being T'averen/The Dragon Reborn. I don't know if Rand is right, and if I were in Egwene's shoes I would probably be highly skeptical and even initially opposed given the extent of my responsibilities. But I would be open to the possibility that I could be wrong and that there are pieces of the puzzle that I might not be seeing. Case in point: Perrin and Nynaeve.

[Bluedust9]

Min - ok, so perhaps I should not have said she was "useless" - I agree that she has had a fundamental role in keeping Rand sane. Kudos. She is simply not my favorite character - not for any particularly rational reasons - it may be as simple as she doesn't appeal to me. Maybe she's not flashy enough, who knows. Anyways, I don't have to like her. That's ok.

 

Egwene - my problem is not so much that she disagrees with Rand's plan to break the seals - it seems to be radical and counter-intuitive on its face. It's more that she doesn't want to even entertain the possibility that Rand could be right, given his unique insight into history and all the other intangible qualities that may go into being T'averen/The Dragon Reborn. I don't know if Rand is right, and if I were in Egwene's shoes I would probably be highly skeptical and even initially opposed given the extent of my responsibilities. But I would be open to the possibility that I could be wrong and that there are pieces of the puzzle that I might not be seeing. Case in point: Perrin and Nynaeve.

 

Egwene has no idea about Rand's unique insight into history, nor his other unique qualities.

[rgiorgetti]

Min - ok, so perhaps I should not have said she was "useless" - I agree that she has had a fundamental role in keeping Rand sane. Kudos. She is simply not my favorite character - not for any particularly rational reasons - it may be as simple as she doesn't appeal to me. Maybe she's not flashy enough, who knows. Anyways, I don't have to like her. That's ok.

 

Egwene - my problem is not so much that she disagrees with Rand's plan to break the seals - it seems to be radical and counter-intuitive on its face. It's more that she doesn't want to even entertain the possibility that Rand could be right, given his unique insight into history and all the other intangible qualities that may go into being T'averen/The Dragon Reborn. I don't know if Rand is right, and if I were in Egwene's shoes I would probably be highly skeptical and even initially opposed given the extent of my responsibilities. But I would be open to the possibility that I could be wrong and that there are pieces of the puzzle that I might not be seeing. Case in point: Perrin and Nynaeve.

 

Egwene has no idea about Rand's unique insight into history, nor his other unique qualities.

 

She does know that he is T'averen and The Dragon Reborn - which I am not suggesting makes him infallible (as we well know). True - she probably does not realize the extent. Touche.