To Live You Must Die

[KaptainKaos]

There are several things in the books that have given us an idea of what will happen to Rand in the last book so what is your opinion?

 

Personally I think that Robert Jordan has given us as much as he can to allow us to figure out the basic plot of the ending. He has shown time and time again he will put a character into a position where all of the odds and even prophecies are against the character and then still make the plot twist so they still come out on top while fulfilling every prophecy put forth. I think that the phrase To live you must die gives us a base for this line of thought because while the phrase may make living seem hopeless it does say, to live, first. This tells me (a hopeful thinker) that there is a chance for life in the end somehow. Also Robert Jordan hammers into our heads throughout the series, The Dragon's blood shed on the rocks at Shayol Ghul will save mankind. This is odd because Robert Jordan says that he gives clues to what is going to happen if you are receptive enough to see them but he never comes right out and tells exactly what will happen and how yet this repeated statement seems to say that Rand's blood will be shed at Shayol Ghul presumably because of his never healing wounds and infers that Rand will die yet never before did Robert Jordan make it so easy for us to actually know something this important so we should question this right?

All of this foreshadowing that seems to come out and say that Rand will most likely die is actually screaming out look there is some hope because none of this says Rand will die and not be seen again. It might make it hard for all of prophecies to happen the way they are worded and Rand live somehow but guess what that is exactly what Robert Jordan has done throughout all the books. He has said that something was impossible over and over and then someone finds a way to do it. I'm not going to go through all of the examples because you should know most of them but just look at the main events of most of the books even from the first where Moiraine goes to the Eye of the World twice but before that people are only allowed to go once. Or Stilling/Severing being healed or Saidin being cleansed by Rand all thought impossible but now that isn't so, are all those examples there for no reason or is it foreshadowing... your thoughts (And I know there may be some crazy ones)...

[Centrino]

Semi mentioned in the last couple of pages of KOD that there was some sort of transference of souls occuring with LTT and Rand. So it kinda leads the reader to question if there should be a distinction made between, LTT (the Dragon) and Rand (the Dragon Reborn) because if you take that leap and assume that they are seperately mentioned people in the same body then perhaps LTT dies and Rand lives on. I know it kinda sounds crazy but go back and read some of the fortelling's that have occured in reference to Rand and TGD..

 

Anyway that's my 2 cents.

[cannon]

That's what I've thought all along. LTT and Rand will merge, with the LTT personality "dying". Rand will then be at full strength and sanity, and be capable of defeating the Dark One.

 

This is also backed up with either Min or Eqwene's vision of two people merging into one or something like that. Sorry I can't remember, but I'm at work ATM.

 

Lastly, since the 4th book I've thought that his "blood on the rocks" just means that the Aiel will be there at the Bore. Of course, now we've got Elayne's kids (maybe) in the picture, and there's always Galad and Slayer. But in any case, I think "blood" means family.

[Gentled Ben]

Yeah, I've always thought that his blood on the rocks could come from his children. Heck, maybe she'll give birth there? Min only said that the babies would be born healthy; she never indicated how long they might live.

 

Anyway, I'm (so far) the lone crazy person who believes in the body swap. Too much would make sense that way, like Aviendha's kids being odd. Rand's soul and personality/Moridin's body and seed would certainly qualify as odd. He would die, but he would still live. The three women could mourn over his funeral bier, yet he could not be dead, etc.

 

It also doesn't preclude LTT slipping away as a personality, which I too, felt was the meaning of Min's vision of two men becoming one. I agree that the body swap would be cheesy (an argument I've seen before, although not yet in this thread), but not nearly as cheesy as Asmodean's death was. It's not like cheesiness is without precedent in the series, you know?

[moroten]

There is no limited number of times that you can visit the eye of the world. You can visit int he times of greatest need.

 

I really hope rand doesnt get Ishy's body, dont like the idea.

 

Actually I like RoW idea most about the 2 dawns and the time skipping thing.

[Gentled Ben]

Yeah, the eclipse idea is intriguing too (and less complicated), but I'm afraid it's all wishful thinking. Still, we can only hope, as I too, dislike the idea of the body switch, but it still makes the most sense to me. Personally, I wouldn't mind that much if Rand doesn't survive. A bittersweet ending can be more fulfilling than, "and they lived happily ever after until the wheel turned again." I really liked the way the Elfstones of Shannara ended for (an off-topic) example. Good triumphs, but at a terrible price.

[joyz]

well, this was one of the prophecies i didn't think over much seeing them pretty obvious .. i just thought as i read that RJ was pointing that Rand will die after TG just like LTT did and will be in the next dragon reborn's head when the wheel turns.

 

but i like crazy theories, i just need some reading and re-reading and then i'll mess with them :p

[MoonBeams]

"to live, you must die" (answer given to

Rand by the Snake People)

Rand was told by the Snaky ppl who give true answers, that he would live; however, he would have to die first--so we know that Rand has a chance (somewhat) to live, supported by the next clue.

 

"twice dawns the day when his blood is shed;

once for mourning, once for birth; red on

black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of

Shayol Ghul; In the Pit of Doom shall his

blood free men from the Shadow" (Prophecy of

the Dragon told to Rand by Thom)

These four verses tell us many important things: 1) the sun will 'dawn' twice on the day Rand's blood is shed, 2) Rand will live after he has died, the first dawning is for death hence the 'mourning' and the 2nd dawning is for when he lives again 'birth', 3) it also states outright that it will be the Dragon Reborn (not his children/wives, etc.) whose blood must be spilled and states where it has to be spilled, 4) location: the Pit of Doom. Now the Dark Ones prison used to be an island in a cool sea before the hole in the Dark One's prison was drilled, which leads me to the next clue

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who

sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is

dead yet lives..." (first part of Nicola's

foretelling)

The first verse is talking about Elayne, Aviendha and Min, these three women must be the ones "on the boat" and "he who is dead yet lives" well that has to be Rand.

This entire "boat" thing reminds me of what the Sea Folk women told Elayne and Nynaeve-that they're tied to the water--even when a pregnant woman is landbound she goes out on a rowboat to give birth. They give birth on water and in death are given back to the water.

 

"...dreamed of you on a boat with three women

whose faces they could not see, and a scale

tilting first one way then the other..."

Bair/Melaine's dreams)

The Wise Ones dreaming almost the same thing as Nicola's foretelling gives it more credibility, even Egwene dreamed something similar

 

These clues all guide to the Last Battle, what has to be done to win it, and the small chance that Rand will be able win the Last Battle and still manage to survive somehow and live. All do-able thru his connection with the three women he loves: Elayne, Aviendha and Min (who he is also bonded too). I'm sure that will have a piece to play in the ending, what say you?

[Gentled Ben]

I think that's impressive! I also think that "the Dragon's blood" can still refer to his kin. The children could be slain, and that might suffice to fulfill the prophecy. They will still be "the Dragon's blood," simply in a slightly different context. It's an ambiguous passage.

 

I don't know that Shayol Ghul once having been an idyllic island during the AOL will have much to do with it though, certainly not with the three women on the boat, although turning it back into an island would certainly count as another breaking, which the Dragon Reborn is also prophecied to bring about. It's actually a pretty cool line of thought.

*wanders off to think about it*

[liatildina]

I myself tend to go with LTT and Rand theory. LTT is also a Dragon, wouldn't his blood count? I know he is not the Dragn Reborn, but if he is back from AOL, and now lives in Rand's head, is he not reborn?

 

What if Rand with the his three on the boat are going across to Tar Valon, I don't know bridge is down or something, and they are making their entrance after the last battle is won?

[Zardi]

LTT is also a Dragon, wouldn't his blood count?

How? LTT is a personality inside Rand's head. He doesn't even have his own soul, much less his own body. Therefore, LTT has no blood of his own that the prophecy could be referring to.

[Luckers]

There is no limited number of times that you can visit the eye of the world. You can visit int he times of greatest need.

 

I really hope rand doesnt get Ishy's body' date=' dont like the idea.

 

Actually I like RoW idea most about the 2 dawns and the time skipping thing.[/quote']

 

Actually, there was supposed to be a limit to the amount of times you can visit the Eye. Recall how shocked Someshta was to see Moiraine.

 

"You, Moiraine Sedai, are more then a surprise. When this place was made it was made so that none could find it twice. How came you to be here?"

 

 

Also, on LTT and Rand. LTT is a facet personality of Rand's soul, he has no soul of his own.

[n00l3y]

Looks like I'm the only guy to have picked the last option so far.

 

Actually, I think Rand will sort of live on. Perhaps with a maimed arm, lots more scars, but he'll live. But I think his existence would be somewhat like Noal's; in seclusion and with a different identity. He may even reside in the Aiel Waste or Shara. It's sad, but if Rand doesn't get his act together soon, he's gonna break when TG comes. He would probably win, but then seek no meaning to live as the Dragon Reborn.

 

That's my theory, feel free to hammer it.

[liatildina]

I think Rand will live and LTT will die, just my preferred theory. LTT seperated from his body at death and lives now in Rand, and seems to be an individual trapped in Rand, okay I admit probably only seems that way to me. His memories, vitality, passion, insanity, isn't that enough to constitute a soul? I'm probably just wishing that the Rand insanity thing will turn out to be less if LTT is more.

[Guest Majsju]

Rand will die in his own body, no swapping with anyone. And LTT will die with him.

[racha_giurgiu]

Maj~

How do you account for the merging that Min (?) had a vision of where one of them lives but the other one dies?

[ArieBombarie]

For a hero he is now pretty messed up, so there will be some kind of healing or reincarnation.

 

He always has the fear/expectation of dying so likely he will not die.

 

The Dragon reborn function stops after the last battle so the Dragon may die but not the person, although likely LTT will not be there after the last battle.

[KaptainKaos]

Racha does bring up a good prophecy that I forgot to mention:

Min says "I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't."

 

Plus from Knife of Dreams summary of Chapter 18-News for the Dragon:

"Another image forms, the stranger who saved his life at Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. He and Lews Therin both think the man was aware of them as if they were touching. Rand thinks their streams of balefire crossing created a link of some sort. He knows the other man used the True Power so he must be a Darkfriend but not one of the Forsaken as Lews Therin remembers all their faces."

 

Notice the two quotes both have the base word touch in them. Coincidence, I think not. So, if you conclude that the two people Min are talking about in her vision are actually Rand and Moridin...

 

"I saw you and another man (Moridin). I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched (Not, you switched bodies, just touched), and seemed to merge into one another (Once again nothing about switching, just merging and remember the verb to merge is like saying to combine or to unite Not to switch), and....one of you dies, and one doesn't (This means that either Rand or Moridin dies not both, which one though is your guess)."

 

But before you guess consider first what I quoted in my first post: "To live you must die." If Rand and Moridin merged as this insinuates and Moridin was the one who died out of the two of them after this merging you could say that for Rand to live the merged thing that he and Moridin are together must die. This making To live you must die a statement that makes sense. I don't understand in what sense they would merge or even if you could constitute the phrase to live you must die to mean what I have theorized it to mean but hey it's always worth a try to figure these prophecies out. I do understand that this means that Rand or Moridin will live on.

 

This must mean that Rand will live because if Moridin lives then once again we have nothing close to a conclusion to the story and there will have to be another Dragon Reborn or something similar to destroy Moridin not to mention it would be the same type of ending as in the War of Power where Ishamael gets to start his cycle of wars again. I just can't see how Robert Jordan would write all these books just to start the cycle over again making all of the characters he has developed null and void.

[Guest Majsju]

KaptainKaos spottted the keyword in Min's viewing, merge. And to take that sentence further, "merge into one other."

I think the merging is an acceleration of what we've seen the start of, Rand and Moridin gaining an increased presence in eachothers minds. A mental merging, not a physical.

 

 

As for one lives, one dies, I'e been taking that to mean that Rand will be the one who survives whatever encounter there will be between him and Moridin because of the merging. Not that Rand will survive TG.

 

Rand vs the DO is a very different fight than Rand vs Moridin after all.

[racha_giurgiu]

My opinion is that Rand will touch and seem to Merge with LTT. That's where our difference in opinion lays and rather than go into a long winded debate, i'll just chuck it up to seeing different interpretations of who is merging with whom.

[liatildina]

ditto.

[KaptainKaos]

Aren't Lews Therin and Rand already pretty much as 'merged' as they can possibly be plus remember one of you will die and one of you will live doesn't really apply to Lews Therin since he is already dead... these could if stretched apply to Lews Therin it just seems too easy to assume that safely though.

[racha_giurgiu]

I believe merged is more of becoming one. Right now there are two very distinct personalities. For a "merge" to be complete they would need to "reintegrate" and fully become one person without consciously acknowledging that one is speaking/thinking and the other is listening. Now , they both ackknowledge the other as a voice in his head. That makes them seem as two to me.

[KaptainKaos]

They may be two separate entities assuming the real Lews Therin is in Rand's head but the dying part still wouldn't apply to Lews Therin and there wouldn't be much purpose to Lews Therin and Rand becoming one and then one of them dying. It would just go along with the plot and make more sense if it was Moridin who touched Rand and became one especially with all the foreshadowing in the quotes I mentioned.

[racha_giurgiu]

I concede it does make sense for the two to merge. I prefer it to the body swap definitely. I guess I just do not see Rand living (assuming the Rand does live) post-TG with LTT in his head.