Is Taim a Chosen?

[Ishna]

First status quo is Taim being Taim.

 

 

 

The dark aura would not make a strong case for taim being moridin even if it could be shown that it HAD to point at TP use.

Moridin use the TP a lot without any mention of a black aura. To me it seems more a reflection of the mood/character of Taim and of Rands state when he had that aura.

To make this a strong case for Taim being Moridin is absurd.

 

And the standing with the hand? I must have missed that with Taim. Any quote?

 

And as other posters already neatly pointed out, if you control Taim you control the BT. So no need for Taim to be a forsaken.

The startingpoint is Taim being Taim, these points have not much substance at all.

The strong evidence AGAINST is so strong, almost on the point that you could use either one of them to kill the theory.

Like suggested that Rand would have at anytime seen the black tower through Moridins eyes and become suspicious. The different orders to the black ashamaman.

The timeline, and why would Demandred seemingly be given temporary Naeblis status during LoC if Moridin was alive.

Ánd when Moridin is naeblis, how could he manage the fullltime

running of the BT and at the same time being busy gathering the dark lords forces and as graendal thought at one of the forsaken mettings. He had little time for the south.

 

Imagine the president of the united states, granted traveling and channeling. At the same time undercover say northkorea commiting time undercover as a general building an army there.

Certanly not something he would have time for, better to let someone else run that huh?

Not the best metafor but still hope you get my point. I would say Naeblis and mhael would require 2 people to handle. Why not instead just control the one heading the BT or set one of his minion forsaken to watchit.

 

Why not the one skilled in war that probably will lead most of the armies, Demandred. I just got a thought about the "My rule is secrue we will be ready". Could that not be refering to the BT and the preparation and turning of people to the shadow?

 

The only really weird thing about taim that can not be explained away is the so-alled aiel quote

[OptimusPrime]

Look. Taim as Moridin is not possible by what we know of channeling. It is physically impossible. You cannot grow shorter using Illusion, and we know of no way characters can transform.

 

So unless BS reveals a brand new weave that allows Moridin to change shape into Taim, it is wrong.

 

So you are saying Moridin can't be Taim because Taim is shooter than Moridin? If so you are assuming the disguise is Taim, but if Moridin is Taim I think Moridin is the disguise and Taim is Moridin's true form because Taim would be the body the DO gave Ishy after Rand killed him in the Stone.

 

With that said, I still don't think Taim is Moridin. I think it is much more likely Demmy is in the BT camp pulling the strings on Taim.

 

However, it is possible for Taim to be Moridin.

 

That is ludicrous, and you know it. You think Rand wouldn't notice through his link with Moridin that he is really Taim? Moridin is clearly his real body. It is how he appears in Tel'aran'rhiod to Rand, it is how he appears in Rand's mind, and it is how he appears to the other Chosen, whom he has no reason to hide from -- he is Nae'blis.

 

It is extremely unlikely, bordering on impossible, that Moridin could carry off a masquerade as Taim when he is randomly appearing in Rand's mind.

 

You act like we have been shown everything the link can do. That is wrong my friend. Let me show you something.

 

Since Rand figured out it was the guy at Shadar Logoths face, he referenced it as that each time he saw the image. Yet when Rand channeled the True Power (which, I remind you, is what made Moridins part of the link) it said he saw "a blurry face" again. This was way after all the stuff about the face being blurry.

 

I reckon when Rand channeled the True Power he saw Moridins Taim-disguised face. But the image was blurry so Rand couldnt tell.

 

As for Brandon "inventing" a new shapechanging weave, well. Shapechange has been hinted at for a long time. And Illusions CAN make you look shorter. But thats besides the point, Taim and Moridin are the same size.

 

As for Taims hand, its on p771. When my bro got ToM and gave it to me, the FIRST thing I did was ask him if Taim was in it, he said yes. So, I trolled through the damn book and found it before Id even started the book properly. And right there on the first page of the chapter-which isnt even a full page because of the chapter icon-I found all I needed. Yes, I was looking to see if there was anything referencing Moridin, call me sad but I did it. Instead of Moridin and Taim together I found Taim holding his hand like Rand.

[Sharaman]

You guys have all got it the wrong way around.

Taim is actually Rand and he's made a solid flesh-coloured hand. He clutches it every so often to make sure it's fitting smoothly.

Moridin is meanwhile pretending to be Rand and that's why he's acting all philosophical.

Meanwhile, Taim is pretending to be Moridin and being a woman-hater of renown, he's getting his jollies torturing Cyndane, who is pretending to be Lanfear.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

You guys have all got it the wrong way around.

Taim is actually Rand and he's made a solid flesh-coloured hand. He clutches it every so often to make sure it's fitting smoothly.

Moridin is meanwhile pretending to be Rand and that's why he's acting all philosophical.

Meanwhile, Taim is pretending to be Moridin and being a woman-hater of renown, he's getting his jollies torturing Cyndane, who is pretending to be Lanfear.

 

lol

[Muad Cheade]

In regards to the original post, Taim is not a Forsaken as evidenced by Egwene's dream of 13 towers.

[dholm]

You act like we have been shown everything the link can do. That is wrong my friend. Let me show you something.

 

Since Rand figured out it was the guy at Shadar Logoths face, he referenced it as that each time he saw the image. Yet when Rand channeled the True Power (which, I remind you, is what made Moridins part of the link) it said he saw "a blurry face" again. This was way after all the stuff about the face being blurry.

 

I reckon when Rand channeled the True Power he saw Moridins Taim-disguised face. But the image was blurry so Rand couldnt tell.

You can "reckon" it as much as you like. It has no bearing on the actual situation. Rand saw Moridin, similar to how he began seeing Mat and Perrin -- not through their eyes, but as an outside observer.

 

As for Brandon "inventing" a new shapechanging weave, well. Shapechange has been hinted at for a long time. And Illusions CAN make you look shorter. But thats besides the point, Taim and Moridin are the same size.

"Hinted at"? It has never even been intimated, at least not in the books. The closest we get is the genetic manipulation Aginor did to create the Trollocs, or the Great Lord's transmogrification.

 

Also, no, they are not the same size. Taim is shorter than Rand, who is the same height as Moridin.

 

As for Taims hand, its on p771. When my bro got ToM and gave it to me, the FIRST thing I did was ask him if Taim was in it, he said yes. So, I trolled through the damn book and found it before Id even started the book properly. And right there on the first page of the chapter-which isnt even a full page because of the chapter icon-I found all I needed. Yes, I was looking to see if there was anything referencing Moridin, call me sad but I did it. Instead of Moridin and Taim together I found Taim holding his hand like Rand.

Which means absolutely nothing -- it is a stance, nothing more. You think only Rand stands like that?

[dholm]

In regards to the original post, Taim is not a Forsaken as evidenced by Egwene's dream of 13 towers.

 

That means nothing. The thirteen towers reference the Chosen, I agree, but it could easily speak only of the ones of legend, from the Second Age, the Age of Legends -- Aginor, Balthamel, Lanfear, Ishamael, Sammael, Demandred, Graendal, Moghedien, Semirhage, Asmodean, Rahvin, Be'lal and Mesaana (as well as their later bodies). It does not preclude new Chosen being promoted.

[MasterAblar]

In regards to the original post, Taim is not a Forsaken as evidenced by Egwene's dream of 13 towers.

 

That means nothing. The thirteen towers reference the Chosen, I agree, but it could easily speak only of the ones of legend, from the Second Age, the Age of Legends -- Aginor, Balthamel, Lanfear, Ishamael, Sammael, Demandred, Graendal, Moghedien, Semirhage, Asmodean, Rahvin, Be'lal and Mesaana (as well as their later bodies). It does not preclude new Chosen being promoted.

 

True, but personally I don't see anybody from the third age being raised to the same level as the chosen.

[seanzor]

In regards to the original post, Taim is not a Forsaken as evidenced by Egwene's dream of 13 towers.

 

That means nothing. The thirteen towers reference the Chosen, I agree, but it could easily speak only of the ones of legend, from the Second Age, the Age of Legends -- Aginor, Balthamel, Lanfear, Ishamael, Sammael, Demandred, Graendal, Moghedien, Semirhage, Asmodean, Rahvin, Be'lal and Mesaana (as well as their later bodies). It does not preclude new Chosen being promoted.

Incedentally I think this is much more plausible than Moridin=Taim, but once again the loudest voices take over the argument.

[mb]

Taim has been on screen since Lord of Chaos. The earliest for Ishamael's/Moridin's resurrection I take to be Crown of Swords. If he been resurrected earlier, I think Moridin would have known the truth about Sammael's supposed treaty with Rand.

[Muad Cheade]

In regards to the original post, Taim is not a Forsaken as evidenced by Egwene's dream of 13 towers.

 

That means nothing. The thirteen towers reference the Chosen, I agree, but it could easily speak only of the ones of legend, from the Second Age, the Age of Legends -- Aginor, Balthamel, Lanfear, Ishamael, Sammael, Demandred, Graendal, Moghedien, Semirhage, Asmodean, Rahvin, Be'lal and Mesaana (as well as their later bodies). It does not preclude new Chosen being promoted.

I would disagree. I think it is very evident that it relays the current state of the Chosen. Seven have fallen; six remain including the one that nearly collapsed and grew to be the highest one of all (which is probably Moridin).

 

I don't believe that there is ample enough evidence to support Taim being anything more than a Dreadlord, albeit a high-ranked one.

[TheAngryDruid]

Your point about Graendal it misses the point. Her access comes from Moridin as a special reward to the Chosen. It tends to prove my point, not yours. No way the DO (or Moridin) is letting average run of the mill dreadlords, or any non-Chosen, use the TP. Moridin gave it to her as a reward, but just a tiny bit at that. And she hasn't used enough to get an aura.

 

If Moridin can award usage of the TP wouldn't it make sense that he allow his most trusted #2 to use it. First if he could trust him enough to run the black tower he could probably trust him to use the TP. Also the TP could be used as a tool to keep Taim loyal because isn't the TP described as even more wondrous and addicting than the OP. Wouldn't Moridin be safe because he would be Taim's only way of getting the TP.

 

Also I think your point about him being a forsaken and not being able to trust anybody doesn't work because Lanfear shows forsaken are able to love, so why is it so improbable that one would have a trusted friend?

 

No, you are missing the point, as did the previous post. You guys are only looking at it through a lens of: since someone else besides Moridin used the TP, then anyone can use it! Yes, I know your position is slightly more nuanced than that, but only just.

 

But it does miss the point. So I'll try again.

 

One, all TP access had been Chosen level access or above (Moridin, Granedal, possibly Aginor as he was dying). You guys are saying Taim ins't Chosen. I'm saying he is (as Moridin). I'm saying if he is accessing the TP, it points to the fact that he is Chosen (and therefore Moridin), rather than the opposite. Yes, of course it is possible he was granted it by Moridin, but is something we haven't seen yet in the series (non-Chosen TP use). Drawing the conclusion that it is something we haven't seen (non-Chosen weilding the TP), rather than the thing we have seen (only Chosen using the TP) seems kind of odd to me, and backwards. Not saying it's impossible, just curious reasoning.

 

Two, even if Taim has been "granted" the TP by Moridin, like Graendal, the amount would have been very small, like Graendal. Not enough to create an aura, I'll wager. No one has ever observed an aura around Graendal. Again, I'm ot saying your take is impossible, I'm just saying this fact tends to point in the direction of Taim being Chosen, because he has (apparently) used enough TP to generate the aura, while Graendal (apparently) hasn't.

[dholm]

If the aura were a side-effect of using the True Power, you'd think they would mention it just once when the saa are mentioned.

 

In fact, I cannot recall anyone ever seeing a dark aura around Moridin.

[seanzor]

@Theangrydruid

 

That's not impossible, although I do think Egwene's dream seems to suggest otherwise.

 

I was only trying to help prove the point that Taim is not Moridin, and while I don't think he's a newly appointed chosen I find that far more palatable, and far more plausible than Taim=Moridin.

[Mr Ares]

One, all TP access had been Chosen level access or above (Moridin, Granedal, possibly Aginor as he was dying).

Rand isn't one of the Chosen. Therefore we have seen non-Chosen use TP. Therefore if Taim's dark aura is a side-effect of TP usage, it really indicates nothing as to whether or not he's a Chosen, or whether or not he's a Third Ager - and it wouldn't even mean he was working for the Shadow (Rand's a Lightsider, after all).

[OptimusPrime]

You act like we have been shown everything the link can do. That is wrong my friend. Let me show you something.

 

Since Rand figured out it was the guy at Shadar Logoths face, he referenced it as that each time he saw the image. Yet when Rand channeled the True Power (which, I remind you, is what made Moridins part of the link) it said he saw "a blurry face" again. This was way after all the stuff about the face being blurry.

 

I reckon when Rand channeled the True Power he saw Moridins Taim-disguised face. But the image was blurry so Rand couldnt tell.

You can "reckon" it as much as you like. It has no bearing on the actual situation. Rand saw Moridin, similar to how he began seeing Mat and Perrin -- not through their eyes, but as an outside observer.

 

As for Brandon "inventing" a new shapechanging weave, well. Shapechange has been hinted at for a long time. And Illusions CAN make you look shorter. But thats besides the point, Taim and Moridin are the same size.

"Hinted at"? It has never even been intimated, at least not in the books. The closest we get is the genetic manipulation Aginor did to create the Trollocs, or the Great Lord's transmogrification.

 

Also, no, they are not the same size. Taim is shorter than Rand, who is the same height as Moridin.

 

The worms in the Blight transform, sounds a bit like them changing shape. Of course, that could just be like a butterfly coming out of its cocoon, but I dont think it is. Also there is the ageless face, removing it made people not recognise Suian, people who had worked closely with her for years. Then there is the comment about Sammael? having chosen to keep a scar. Meaning scars can be removed. If all that can be done I wouldnt be surprised if there wasnt a weave to actually change your face temporarily. A True Power equivalent to MoM or whatever its called.

 

As for Taims height, I remember pointing out the difference as a point that Taim had changed since LoC but people told me this was a genuine continuity error and was corrected in later print. So I cant really say much about that, except that Elayne in Winters Heart describes Taim as being almost as tall as Rand (that being the time Taim had the black aura)

 

As for Taims hand, its on p771. When my bro got ToM and gave it to me, the FIRST thing I did was ask him if Taim was in it, he said yes. So, I trolled through the damn book and found it before Id even started the book properly. And right there on the first page of the chapter-which isnt even a full page because of the chapter icon-I found all I needed. Yes, I was looking to see if there was anything referencing Moridin, call me sad but I did it. Instead of Moridin and Taim together I found Taim holding his hand like Rand.

Which means absolutely nothing -- it is a stance, nothing more. You think only Rand stands like that?

 

No, but when he does and suddenly two other guys start doing it as well... I ***cringe*** THOUGHT Moridin and Taim were one guy, looked at the tiny section of Taim in ToM, and see the hand thing.

 

I thought Moridin and Taim were the same guy.

Moridin starts holding his hand behing his back like Rand. We have an explanation for why.

As soon as I get ToM I look for the Taim section, to look for Moridin mannerisms.

On the first page of the Taim section in ToM Taim holds his hand behind his back like Rand.

 

If any sane person were to be in my shoes they would see the hand thing as confirmation of what they were looking for. Im sure of it.

 

To deny its significance, to me, is roughly the same thing as... oh, I dont know. Like trying to prove that Cyndanes thoughts on the Finns doesnt prove she is Lanfear.

 

Lanfear: Damn you Lews Therin *is held by the Finns*

Cyndane: Damn you Lews Therin. *blah blah something something when the Finns held me*

Us: Based on those two small comments we can deduce that Lanfear is Cyndane

 

Fine.

 

Ishamael: Dark auras and whatnot.

Rand: Creators and gardeners and stuff. Ow, my hand! *holds stump behind back* Ooh look, the True Power. Dark auras and whatnot.

Moridin: True Power True Power True Power. Dont kill Rand. *Saves Rand* Ok kill him if you must. *holds hand behind back*

Bashere: You're Taim?

Taim: All Im saying is Im evil. Dark auras and whatnot. *saves Rand* Kill Rand! *holds hand behind back*

Us: Taim is Taim.

 

WHAT?!?!

[dholm]

The worms in the Blight transform, sounds a bit like them changing shape. Of course, that could just be like a butterfly coming out of its cocoon, but I dont think it is. Also there is the ageless face, removing it made people not recognise Suian, people who had worked closely with her for years. Then there is the comment about Sammael? having chosen to keep a scar. Meaning scars can be removed. If all that can be done I wouldnt be surprised if there wasnt a weave to actually change your face temporarily. A True Power equivalent to MoM or whatever its called.

The Worms sounds to me exactly like a kind of larvae. The ageless effect is hardly transformation; it's more like a permanent face-lift. Sammael chose to keep a scar, but removing it involved Healing -- not a transformation at all, unless you are calling all Healing effects transformation, which I think is uncalled for.

 

As for Taims height, I remember pointing out the difference as a point that Taim had changed since LoC but people told me this was a genuine continuity error and was corrected in later print. So I cant really say much about that, except that Elayne in Winters Heart describes Taim as being almost as tall as Rand (that being the time Taim had the black aura)

Yes, I am speaking of the corrected height, not the mistake. Taim is not as tall as Rand, which Moridin is. Neither are shy about being touched, thus it is almost impossible for one to be an Illusion -- it would have been discovered.

 

As for Taims hand, its on p771. When my bro got ToM and gave it to me, the FIRST thing I did was ask him if Taim was in it, he said yes. So, I trolled through the damn book and found it before Id even started the book properly. And right there on the first page of the chapter-which isnt even a full page because of the chapter icon-I found all I needed. Yes, I was looking to see if there was anything referencing Moridin, call me sad but I did it. Instead of Moridin and Taim together I found Taim holding his hand like Rand.

Which means absolutely nothing -- it is a stance, nothing more. You think only Rand stands like that?

 

No, but when he does and suddenly two other guys start doing it as well... I ***cringe*** THOUGHT Moridin and Taim were one guy, looked at the tiny section of Taim in ToM, and see the hand thing.

 

I thought Moridin and Taim were the same guy.

Moridin starts holding his hand behing his back like Rand. We have an explanation for why.

As soon as I get ToM I look for the Taim section, to look for Moridin mannerisms.

On the first page of the Taim section in ToM Taim holds his hand behind his back like Rand.

 

If any sane person were to be in my shoes they would see the hand thing as confirmation of what they were looking for. Im sure of it.

 

To deny its significance, to me, is roughly the same thing as... oh, I dont know. Like trying to prove that Cyndanes thoughts on the Finns doesnt prove she is Lanfear.

 

Lanfear: Damn you Lews Therin *is held by the Finns*

Cyndane: Damn you Lews Therin. *blah blah something something when the Finns held me*

Us: Based on those two small comments we can deduce that Lanfear is Cyndane

 

Fine.

 

Ishamael: Dark auras and whatnot.

Rand: Creators and gardeners and stuff. Ow, my hand! *holds stump behind back* Ooh look, the True Power. Dark auras and whatnot.

Moridin: True Power True Power True Power. Dont kill Rand. *Saves Rand* Ok kill him if you must. *holds hand behind back*

Bashere: You're Taim?

Taim: All Im saying is Im evil. Dark auras and whatnot. *saves Rand* Kill Rand! *holds hand behind back*

Us: Taim is Taim.

 

WHAT?!?!

...

 

No, no, no. It is a stance. When Cyndane arrived, she made it clear she was of the Chosen, and she was accepted as such by the others. That lead us to wonder who she was. She couldn't have been Ishamael, who is Moridin. She couldn't have been Balthamel or Aginor -- we knew then they were Osan'gar and Aran'gar. She couldn't have been Rahvin, or Be'lal, or Asmodean, or Sammael, for they could not be transmogrified (except possibly Asmodean, but the Great Lord would not have brought him back if he could). The rest were all alive. The choice was between a completely new Chosen and Lanfear, and when she made references to events which we know happened to Lanfear, the case was shut then and there.

 

If Taim indeed stands as Rand does, that is all it is. Taim standing with his hands behind his back is proof of nothing except the fact that he has hands and feet! The story works far better if Taim is just Taim, and we do not even need him to be a Chosen at all.

 

Personally I believe the "dark aura" around Rand was because of his negative-focused ta'veren effect. Unless I'm completely mistaken, it only appeared when Rand was ready to try to force the effect to do specific things (such as threatening to stop Cadsuane's heart, threatening the chandler's apprentice, and trying to force Tuon to agree with his treaty). While that might have been the True Power, since we do not actually see those events from Rand's point of view, considering how Rand behaved regarding it after he touched it, I seriously doubt he grasped it more than the once against Semirhage. The dark aura also had a unique descriptor, in that no one could see it while looking directly at Rand. Elayne's comment regarding Taim has nothing like it. In fact, Elayne has a completely different descriptor for it:

 

Winter's Heart, prologue, Snow:

[Taim] was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder’s deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light.

(emphasis mine)

 

They are not the same effect at all, not even on the surface.

[capuga]

Two, even if Taim has been "granted" the TP by Moridin, like Graendal, the amount would have been very small, like Graendal. Not enough to create an aura, I'll wager. No one has ever observed an aura around Graendal. Again, I'm ot saying your take is impossible, I'm just saying this fact tends to point in the direction of Taim being Chosen, because he has (apparently) used enough TP to generate the aura, while Graendal (apparently) hasn't.

 

Which would indicate that True Power usage does not cause a dark aura. That is 100% assumption. We haven't seen Taim use the True Power but he has a "dark aura". We have seen Graendal use the True Power and she doesn't have a dark aura. We've seen Ishy channel the True Power all the time and rarely has any darkness been mentioned (and when it has it appears to be some kind of illusion and not referred to in the same way as these "dark auras"). So there's no real reason to believe that True Power usage causes any kind of aura and, thus, no reason to believe that this is evidence the Taim has used it and must therefore be Moridin.

[herid]

TP causing dark aura was confirmed in interviews by BS.

 

 

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Dallas Borders 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

 

 

The black/dark aura around Rand is partially, but not entirely, an effect of True Power usage. There will be consequences from Rand's True Power use.

 

 

Ishy had it in abundance. Moridin has it too although it's not mentioned as often, perhaps because the connection is so firmly established. I haven't looked very hard but I found one example of it around Moridin.

"Aybara can walk the World ofDreams," Moridin said. "I will lend you another tool, the man with two souls. But he is mine, just as that spike is mine. Just as you are mine. Do you understand?"

She nodded. She couldn't help herself. The room seemed to be growing darker. That voice of his . . . it sounded, just faintly, like that of the Great Lord.

-ToM, Ch 5

 

Actually, now that I think about it the fact that the aura around Moridin seems to be much more subtle than around Rand is because BS indicated that Rand's aura was caused by a combination of several factors. TP was one but there was more to it than that. something like the dark ta'veren nature that dholm mentions.

[OptimusPrime]

The worms in the Blight transform, sounds a bit like them changing shape. Of course, that could just be like a butterfly coming out of its cocoon, but I dont think it is. Also there is the ageless face, removing it made people not recognise Suian, people who had worked closely with her for years. Then there is the comment about Sammael? having chosen to keep a scar. Meaning scars can be removed. If all that can be done I wouldnt be surprised if there wasnt a weave to actually change your face temporarily. A True Power equivalent to MoM or whatever its called.

The Worms sounds to me exactly like a kind of larvae. The ageless effect is hardly transformation; it's more like a permanent face-lift. Sammael chose to keep a scar, but removing it involved Healing -- not a transformation at all, unless you are calling all Healing effects transformation, which I think is uncalled for.

 

As for Taims height, I remember pointing out the difference as a point that Taim had changed since LoC but people told me this was a genuine continuity error and was corrected in later print. So I cant really say much about that, except that Elayne in Winters Heart describes Taim as being almost as tall as Rand (that being the time Taim had the black aura)

Yes, I am speaking of the corrected height, not the mistake. Taim is not as tall as Rand, which Moridin is. Neither are shy about being touched, thus it is almost impossible for one to be an Illusion -- it would have been discovered.

 

As for Taims hand, its on p771. When my bro got ToM and gave it to me, the FIRST thing I did was ask him if Taim was in it, he said yes. So, I trolled through the damn book and found it before Id even started the book properly. And right there on the first page of the chapter-which isnt even a full page because of the chapter icon-I found all I needed. Yes, I was looking to see if there was anything referencing Moridin, call me sad but I did it. Instead of Moridin and Taim together I found Taim holding his hand like Rand.

Which means absolutely nothing -- it is a stance, nothing more. You think only Rand stands like that?

 

No, but when he does and suddenly two other guys start doing it as well... I ***cringe*** THOUGHT Moridin and Taim were one guy, looked at the tiny section of Taim in ToM, and see the hand thing.

 

I thought Moridin and Taim were the same guy.

Moridin starts holding his hand behing his back like Rand. We have an explanation for why.

As soon as I get ToM I look for the Taim section, to look for Moridin mannerisms.

On the first page of the Taim section in ToM Taim holds his hand behind his back like Rand.

 

If any sane person were to be in my shoes they would see the hand thing as confirmation of what they were looking for. Im sure of it.

 

To deny its significance, to me, is roughly the same thing as... oh, I dont know. Like trying to prove that Cyndanes thoughts on the Finns doesnt prove she is Lanfear.

 

Lanfear: Damn you Lews Therin *is held by the Finns*

Cyndane: Damn you Lews Therin. *blah blah something something when the Finns held me*

Us: Based on those two small comments we can deduce that Lanfear is Cyndane

 

Fine.

 

Ishamael: Dark auras and whatnot.

Rand: Creators and gardeners and stuff. Ow, my hand! *holds stump behind back* Ooh look, the True Power. Dark auras and whatnot.

Moridin: True Power True Power True Power. Dont kill Rand. *Saves Rand* Ok kill him if you must. *holds hand behind back*

Bashere: You're Taim?

Taim: All Im saying is Im evil. Dark auras and whatnot. *saves Rand* Kill Rand! *holds hand behind back*

Us: Taim is Taim.

 

WHAT?!?!

...

 

No, no, no. It is a stance. When Cyndane arrived, she made it clear she was of the Chosen, and she was accepted as such by the others. That lead us to wonder who she was. She couldn't have been Ishamael, who is Moridin. She couldn't have been Balthamel or Aginor -- we knew then they were Osan'gar and Aran'gar. She couldn't have been Rahvin, or Be'lal, or Asmodean, or Sammael, for they could not be transmogrified (except possibly Asmodean, but the Great Lord would not have brought him back if he could). The rest were all alive. The choice was between a completely new Chosen and Lanfear, and when she made references to events which we know happened to Lanfear, the case was shut then and there.

 

If Taim indeed stands as Rand does, that is all it is. Taim standing with his hands behind his back is proof of nothing except the fact that he has hands and feet! The story works far better if Taim is just Taim, and we do not even need him to be a Chosen at all.

 

Personally I believe the "dark aura" around Rand was because of his negative-focused ta'veren effect. Unless I'm completely mistaken, it only appeared when Rand was ready to try to force the effect to do specific things (such as threatening to stop Cadsuane's heart, threatening the chandler's apprentice, and trying to force Tuon to agree with his treaty). While that might have been the True Power, since we do not actually see those events from Rand's point of view, considering how Rand behaved regarding it after he touched it, I seriously doubt he grasped it more than the once against Semirhage. The dark aura also had a unique descriptor, in that no one could see it while looking directly at Rand. Elayne's comment regarding Taim has nothing like it. In fact, Elayne has a completely different descriptor for it:

 

Winter's Heart, prologue, Snow:

[Taim] was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder’s deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light.

(emphasis mine)

 

They are not the same effect at all, not even on the surface.

 

Yes, they are the same, Tam said the room grew darker around Rand. Sounds like light growing dim, which is how it describes Taims.

 

Use the same process on Taim as you did on Cyndane.

 

-The book goes out of its way to make you wonder whether or not he is Taim as soon as he arrives, and Rand uses 2+2=5 tactics to prove to himself he can believe Taim over Bashere.

-The guy shows about as many Forsaken mannerisms as can be shown with one character. Like, seriously. More mannerisms than Cyndane, Osan'gar and Aran'gar did disguised/pre-revelation combined.

-Demandred was flat out debunked by RJ with a smug remark that sometimes a simple answer can be the most decieving.

-He isnt Aran'gar. He just isnt.

-Egwenes dream in ToM shows the fate of the Chosen from book 1-12, and there is no fourteenth tower, which means there are no Third Age Chosen.

-Taim and Moridin have the same aura. Then Rand and Moridin share mannerisms. Then Taim mimics a mannerism Moridin got off Rand.

 

How much further out of its way can it go without flat out saying Taim is Moridin? Not much further, I dont think.

 

At least some people are starting to take the idea seriously now though.

[dholm]

You see what you want to see, not what is actually there. Taim does not need to be a Chosen. There is nothing which requires it at all. We do not need to speculate on which of the Chosen he could be -- we know who he is. Mazrim Taim. If he is a Chosen, he is newly-promoted to the position.

 

I won't repeat what I have said half a dozen times over -- the arguments are there for you to read. Taim is not Moridin, period. It is not possible, given what we know of the One Power or the True Power.

[OptimusPrime]

You see what you want to see, not what is actually there. Taim does not need to be a Chosen. There is nothing which requires it at all. We do not need to speculate on which of the Chosen he could be -- we know who he is. Mazrim Taim. If he is a Chosen, he is newly-promoted to the position.

 

I won't repeat what I have said half a dozen times over -- the arguments are there for you to read. Taim is not Moridin, period. It is not possible, given what we know of the One Power or the True Power.

 

Only AMoL will tell eh?

[capuga]

Use the same process on Taim as you did on Cyndane.

 

Piecing together a few pieces of external evidence (while ignoring the non-explanable evidence against the theory) is not anywhere near the proof of an actual Cyndane POV that shows her internal thoughts to be those of Lanfear.

[Mr Ares]

-The book goes out of its way to make you wonder whether or not he is Taim as soon as he arrives, and Rand uses 2+2=5 tactics to prove to himself he can believe Taim over Bashere.

Rand doesn't believe Taim over Bashere - Bashere says the guy is Taim. If a guy shows up claiming to be Taim, knowing something that only Taim and Bashere know (or at least is known to them and is not common knowledge), and Bashere accepts that this guy is Taim, then what reason does Rand have to doubt? None at all. And that knowing stuff that isn't common knowledge, that makes it harder for him to be anyone other than Taim. On the one hand it could be taken as the only thing even approaching evidence that the real Taim was kidnapped, forcibly interrogated, and this piece of information was wrung out of him as a useful way to identify him (a little bit of a stretch), and on the other this could be taken as evidence that this is not just Demandred, Moridin, Be'lal or any of the others under an Illusion. Because if it was, how would they know what happened? The doubts and subsequent confirmation of Taim's identity can easily be interpreted in a way that scuppers Taim isn't Taim theories, rather than reinforces them.

 

-Egwenes dream in ToM shows the fate of the Chosen from book 1-12, and there is no fourteenth tower, which means there are no Third Age Chosen.

The Dream is suggestive, not conclusive.

[OptimusPrime]

I see no subsequent confirmation that Taim is Taim. I would take Basheres original comment as more valid than Bashere using the guys name. Otherwise it would be like saying what someone is called is better evidence of their identity than their thoughts, or who recognises him. For example Mr Ares your way of looking at it-Bashere not recognising Taim at first being overruled by Bashere calling him Taim-would inevitably turn Demandred not recognising Flynn into a moot point (were it not for the RJ comment of course) and taking into account I think Bashere is trying to call out Ishamael, when Ishamael is doing something he is very very good at... its a walk in the park. Bashere tries to call Taim out. Do not deny it. Ishamaels response was to get Bashere to refer to him as Taim, and his method is to piss Bashere off. Easy money.

 

Some people say there were Black Ajah Aes Sedai involved in Taims False Dragonhood. While Im not sure about that myself I think its a possibility, so this would maybe provide an explanation as to how Moridin knew what happened between Taim and Bashere.