Is Taim a Chosen?

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Why can't the Moridin "body" be the disguise and the Taim "body" be the actual body.

 

What I mean is Taim was Taim in the first three books and we really never met him. The first time we run into Taim "on-screen" is in aCoS. Rand had killed Ishy with Callendor at the end of tDR and the DO gave Ishy a new body called Moridin. Why couldn't that body have been Taim's?

 

So the first time we readers meat Taim (other than him falling off his horse) he is already Ishy/Moridin.

 

This would make the "Moridin" appearance a disguise.

 

I'm not saying I believe this, but I do see it as possible!

 

We see Taim for the first time in LoC not aCoS.

 

If Taim is his real body than why bother with the illusion of his Moridin body? What would be the point?

LoC, is what I meant. My bad. The point is it was after tDR.

 

Moridin might not like the way Taim looks and wants to present himself as a better looking guy, for vanity sake when he is around the other chosen.

 

He might not want anyone to recognize him as Taim.

 

He might just want to change things up physically when he has to change his personality.

 

Like I said I don't think this is the case, but it is possible that Taim is Ishy's new body.

 

Of course Taim would have to have a limited disguise because of the Saah (sp?) floating around in his eyes.

[Sharaman]

Why can't the Moridin "body" be the disguise and the Taim "body" be the actual body.

 

What I mean is Taim was Taim in the first three books and we really never met him. The first time we run into Taim "on-screen" is in aCoS. Rand had killed Ishy with Callendor at the end of tDR and the DO gave Ishy a new body called Moridin. Why couldn't that body have been Taim's?

 

So the first time we readers meat Taim (other than him falling off his horse) he is already Ishy/Moridin.

 

This would make the "Moridin" appearance a disguise.

 

I'm not saying I believe this, but I do see it as possible!

 

We see Taim for the first time in LoC not aCoS.

 

If Taim is his real body than why bother with the illusion of his Moridin body? What would be the point?

 

Rand touches the Moridin body as well - in Shadar Logoth.

So the "real" Moridin body has approximately the same reach/ height as the apparent body, assuming there's a difference at all.

Note that it's not just height - two guys can be the same height but significantly different in other physical parameters.

Longer arms, wider shoulders, bigger bellies, shorter torsos, etc.

Taim is touched in not just one place - he's touched on several places on his upper body and he has no problems with voluntarily touching other people either.

If Moridin-taim are the same person using illusion, their measurements all fit. Unlikely.

 

About Keillie, she is never touched onscreen and the only touches we see onscreen are initiated and carefully controlled by her.

About the Sammael quote - this only holds for two persons who are very close in build / size, etc.

[OptimusPrime]

Taim and Moridins orders DO NOT conflict each other. Kill him vs Kill him if you must to get his possessions is not as massive a contradiction as people make out. Both ways he has given permission to kill Rand. This is even after Moridin himself gave the no kill order to the Forsaken, so whatever happens, Moridin has contradicted his own words even as himself without even bringing Taims words into it. So the Taim-Moridin slightly different order thing means diddly squat.

 

But Moridin's orders make it plain that the possessions are the most important part of the order. So what happens if they just follow Taim's order and kill him? By having conflicting orders, you run the risk of not getting what you really want, which was the CK. It is foolish and unnecessary to issue two differing orders to your underlings. Issue one order to make sure you get what you want.

 

Everything Taim says is all an act. Moridin is playing the part, he is ACTING the part.

 

But why continue the act around the Darkfriends? There is no reason to present two differing faces to those already dedicated to you. He can command them as he wishes as either Taim or Moridin. It makes no sense to confuse those that are on your side.

 

See the thing with the faces isnt originally there to fool them, its to fool Rand. Moridin doesnt want to go to Rand with his new face, he wants to keep that seperate, so that he could for example assist Rand in Shadar Logoth without letting on who it is. This face thing was going on before the Darkfriend Ashaman came into it. By the time all thats happening, Rand has seen both faces already-but doesnt know its the same guy. Would Moridin risk telling lesser Third Ager idiots about his disguise? Could he trust them to cower in private but act normal in front of Rand? I dont think he would. Do you see what I mean? If the Darkfriend Ashaman knew the big secret, they would have to maintain the lie... Ishamael is the expert liar, I doubt he would trust lesser minions with something this significant. So he acts out two seperate people according to what he wants, and whispers in Rands ear whenever they meet.

 

As for the orders... Imagine you are trying to act like someone else but to people you have already spoken to. If you use the same wordings all the time you are likely to be figured out, are you not? Look at the orders. Kill Rand. Kill Rand if you must to get his possessions. The result of either option would be that Rand couldnt Cleanse saidin. This is Ishamael were talking about! When have we ever tried to base something on consistencies in what HE says? The whole comment where he says, AS MORIDIN, to kill Rand if thats how to get the CK, THAT comment in itself contradicts his very own no-kill order. Why? Because time passes, and new approaches can still be looked into. So in that sense it went from "Dont harm Rand" to "Kill him if you must" from Moridins words alone as himself. Moridins orders have changed before. I simply think his comment as Taim was another example. So, the bigger picture I think went like this.

 

Moridin: Nobody kill Rand.

Moridin as Taim, in secret, to Kisman: Okay kill Rand.

Kisman: *fails to kill Rand*

Demandred, to Kisman: Try again, and better that you die than let the M'Hael find out you failed again.

Moridin: Hmmm. These Ashaman are idiots, but still assets. Theyve failed trying to kill him once, do I let them go at him again, face a Ta'veren? *Goes to Kisman as the Nae'blis* Ok, kill Rand if you have to, but only if thats what it takes to get his possessions. *nods* That should do. Overwrites what I said as Taim, and anything Demandred might have said.

Kisman: Meh, al'Thors only a man, I'll try killing him again.

[dholm]

Look. Taim as Moridin is not possible by what we know of channeling. It is physically impossible. You cannot grow shorter using Illusion, and we know of no way characters can transform.

 

So unless BS reveals a brand new weave that allows Moridin to change shape into Taim, it is wrong.

[herid]

one possible reason for Moridin to hide his identity from Black Asha'man is that he wants to hide it from the other Forsaken. They are not exactly open with each other about their secret identities. Graendal (along with the readers I might add) is still dying to know how Demandred is hidden. It's also very clear from before that they are not obligated to tell each other those things. Sammael questions Graendal about whereabouts of the others. when Rand questions Asmodean about the same Asmodean knows very little. The Forsaken scheme against each other constantly. Moridin is not made Naeblis right away and even when he is that hardly stops the others from scheming against him. They all want to kill him and become Naeblis themselves. pretty much every one of them thinks about this explicitly in their POVs. Moridin would be well aware of that fact.

 

If Taim would reveal his true identity as Moridin to Black Asha'man the other Forsaken would likely find out about it too. Demandred certainly dabbles in BT. Others might as well.

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Look. Taim as Moridin is not possible by what we know of channeling. It is physically impossible. You cannot grow shorter using Illusion, and we know of no way characters can transform.

 

So unless BS reveals a brand new weave that allows Moridin to change shape into Taim, it is wrong.

 

So you are saying Moridin can't be Taim because Taim is shooter than Moridin? If so you are assuming the disguise is Taim, but if Moridin is Taim I think Moridin is the disguise and Taim is Moridin's true form because Taim would be the body the DO gave Ishy after Rand killed him in the Stone.

 

With that said, I still don't think Taim is Moridin. I think it is much more likely Demmy is in the BT camp pulling the strings on Taim.

 

However, it is possible for Taim to be Moridin.

[dholm]

Look. Taim as Moridin is not possible by what we know of channeling. It is physically impossible. You cannot grow shorter using Illusion, and we know of no way characters can transform.

 

So unless BS reveals a brand new weave that allows Moridin to change shape into Taim, it is wrong.

 

So you are saying Moridin can't be Taim because Taim is shooter than Moridin? If so you are assuming the disguise is Taim, but if Moridin is Taim I think Moridin is the disguise and Taim is Moridin's true form because Taim would be the body the DO gave Ishy after Rand killed him in the Stone.

 

With that said, I still don't think Taim is Moridin. I think it is much more likely Demmy is in the BT camp pulling the strings on Taim.

 

However, it is possible for Taim to be Moridin.

 

That is ludicrous, and you know it. You think Rand wouldn't notice through his link with Moridin that he is really Taim? Moridin is clearly his real body. It is how he appears in Tel'aran'rhiod to Rand, it is how he appears in Rand's mind, and it is how he appears to the other Chosen, whom he has no reason to hide from -- he is Nae'blis.

 

It is extremely unlikely, bordering on impossible, that Moridin could carry off a masquerade as Taim when he is randomly appearing in Rand's mind.

[TheAngryDruid]

I love how the anti-Taim=Moridin crowd never actually deal with some of the strongest evidence for the theory:

 

1) The Dark Aura around Taim (only seen around Rand and Ishamael).

2) Mordin standing and holding his hand like Rand in dreamland, then Taim doing it.

3) Why on earth would the power and knowledge hungry Forsaken turn over control of the BT to an inferior?

 

Instead they want to argue the intricacies of power wrought disguises or maintain that the sigil use is pure coincidence, or ignore the fact "conflicting orders" casts doubts on the Taim as lackey theory as well.

 

Yes, there are some good arguments (time, OP usage, orders) against the Taim=Moridin theory, but until the doubters can come up with a reasonable explanation for the Dark Aura around Taim, it is hard to take them seriously.

 

Apologies if this argument has been made and I missed it, and calling it a writing error or some such doesn't count.

[dholm]

Correlation is not causation.

 

As for turning control over the Black Tower to an inferior, they had nothing to do with it. Rand appointed Taim as their leader. How exactly would they go about replacing him after that? Rand trusts Taim -- at least with the training of the students, if with nothing else. They might as well use it.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

does rand trust taim, or does he completely cop out on his responsibility with the BT?

[MasterAblar]

I love how the anti-Taim=Moridin crowd never actually deal with some of the strongest evidence for the theory:

 

1) The Dark Aura around Taim (only seen around Rand and Ishamael).

2) Mordin standing and holding his hand like Rand in dreamland, then Taim doing it.

3) Why on earth would the power and knowledge hungry Forsaken turn over control of the BT to an inferior?

 

Instead they want to argue the intricacies of power wrought disguises or maintain that the sigil use is pure coincidence, or ignore the fact "conflicting orders" casts doubts on the Taim as lackey theory as well.

 

Yes, there are some good arguments (time, OP usage, orders) against the Taim=Moridin theory, but until the doubters can come up with a reasonable explanation for the Dark Aura around Taim, it is hard to take them seriously.

 

Apologies if this argument has been made and I missed it, and calling it a writing error or some such doesn't count.

 

1)When has there been a dark aura around him? I know he had a certain air of imminent violence to him, according to Elayne. I must have missed it if there was a dark aura mentioned.

 

2)Holding his hand the same way as Rand and Moridin is hardly evidence that they are linked.

 

3)Who says he has complete control of the BT? There is probably a forsaken making sure he is doing his job right and isn't trying seize power from the forsaken. Alviarin is leading the black ajah, Taim could be leading the darkfriend ashaman. Mesaana is looking right over Alviarin's shoulder. Besides any male forsaken at that time were probably too busy to take on a full time job as the M'hael. Not to mention a job that is going to place him in such danger. They've already got osangar close to Rand and at least he's not in a prominent position where he could be suspected.

[capuga]

I love how the anti-Taim=Moridin crowd never actually deal with some of the strongest evidence for the theory:

 

1) The Dark Aura around Taim (only seen around Rand and Ishamael).

 

Done many times. The dark "aura" around Taim is a thought from Elayne's POV. Elayne finds the man creepy, intimidating, and evil. The "aura" is just her impression of the man. He "seemed" to have a dark aura. Doesn't mean it was some actual visible darkening.

 

Or, he has access to the True Power. We see from Graendal that others still have access to it on a limited basis. Its possible that a valuable and competent channeler like Taim was using it at some point.

 

Keep in mind, there is no definitive proof that True Power usage causes any type of dark "aura". Moridin channels the True Power all the time and a visible darkness is almost never mentioned. The darkness around Rand could also just be people's impressions of him and his actions. He's acting all dark and scary. His Fisher King properties are dark and twisted and causing food to spoil. This would explain how people perceive the darkness around him.

 

2) Mordin standing and holding his hand like Rand in dreamland, then Taim doing it.

 

I don't remember this and no-one has provided an actual quote for Taim standing like Rand. That said, I will assume this is correct and argue that its coincidence and a red herring.

 

3) Why on earth would the power and knowledge hungry Forsaken turn over control of the BT to an inferior?

 

This argument has never made any sense to me. Why wouldn't they let Taim deal with the day to day trouble of running the Black Tower? He obviously does a good job. They are way too busy with their own plans to deal with running the Black Tower and training all these channelers. There is obviously oversight from Moridin and likely Demandred as well. You have a competent underling that can do the job, you let him do the job and just keep tabs on him. Moridin obviously spends a lot of time in the Blight, when would he have time to be doing everything running the Black Tower requires? The Black Tower is very important to Rand also, but he leaves it Taim to run for the same reason - he just doesn't have the time to do everything himself.

 

Look at this way. Let's say Taim is Moridin and he presents himself to Rand in Caemlyn. Rather then having him lead the Black Tower, there is a good chance that Rand will want to just keep this powerful and knowledgable channeler with him at all times (like he does with Corlan Dashiva and the others later on). In fact, this seems a more likely decision then the one that ended up being made with Taim in charge of the Black Tower. So now Taim/Moridin is stuck around Rand constantly. While this would have its uses, it leaves basically no time for Moridin to go about putting his other plans in place. Not the best course of action for the Nae'blis.

 

Yes, there are some good arguments (time, OP usage, orders) against the Taim=Moridin theory, but until the doubters can come up with a reasonable explanation for the Dark Aura around Taim, it is hard to take them seriously.

 

Apologies if this argument has been made and I missed it, and calling it a writing error or some such doesn't count.

 

None of those things I've just argued are unreasonable or hard to believe. Perhaps when those that believe Taim=Moridin give convincing arguments for why Taim/Moridin give differing orders to the rogue Asha'man, Moridin has time to run the Black Tower and be running things in the Blight, why Rand never sees Taim through his link with Moridin, why Moridin would appear as different people even to the Darkfriends, etc, etc then I will take them seriously. There is no way to explain away those problems without a lot of convoluted rationale. Taim is a well trained minion is a much more reasonable position.

 

Besides (and this isn't an actual argument) the story is just better if Taim is Taim and is a cool bad guy all on his own rather just being a facet of Moridin.

[dholm]

In fact, it could be argued that Osan'gar was the Chosen assigned to the Black Tower in the same way that Mesaana went to the White Tower -- only the Aes Sedai didn't have Rand's ta'veren nature which pulled Osan'gar away from his sphere of influence.

 

If Moridin is Taim, why have two Chosen at the Black Tower?

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Look. Taim as Moridin is not possible by what we know of channeling. It is physically impossible. You cannot grow shorter using Illusion, and we know of no way characters can transform.

 

So unless BS reveals a brand new weave that allows Moridin to change shape into Taim, it is wrong.

 

So you are saying Moridin can't be Taim because Taim is shooter than Moridin? If so you are assuming the disguise is Taim, but if Moridin is Taim I think Moridin is the disguise and Taim is Moridin's true form because Taim would be the body the DO gave Ishy after Rand killed him in the Stone.

 

With that said, I still don't think Taim is Moridin. I think it is much more likely Demmy is in the BT camp pulling the strings on Taim.

 

However, it is possible for Taim to be Moridin.

 

That is ludicrous, and you know it. You think Rand wouldn't notice through his link with Moridin that he is really Taim? Moridin is clearly his real body. It is how he appears in Tel'aran'rhiod to Rand, it is how he appears in Rand's mind, and it is how he appears to the other Chosen, whom he has no reason to hide from -- he is Nae'blis.

 

It is extremely unlikely, bordering on impossible, that Moridin could carry off a masquerade as Taim when he is randomly appearing in Rand's mind.

Quite touchy aren't you. Try not to get so emotional when someone posts something you don't agree with.

 

As far as Rand seeing Moridin as Moridin as opposed to Taim could be explained simply.

 

Moridin sees himself in the Moridin image and doesn't really like the Taim image. Since, that is how Moridin sees himself then that is how Rand sees him through their link and in the dream world (where you control every aspect of your appearance anyhow).

 

And if you found the last post ludicrous than you will surely find this one bordering on "plaid".

 

Relax, take a deep breath, exhale. Feel better?

[MasterAblar]

In fact, it could be argued that Osan'gar was the Chosen assigned to the Black Tower in the same way that Mesaana went to the White Tower -- only the Aes Sedai didn't have Rand's ta'veren nature which pulled Osan'gar away from his sphere of influence.

 

If Moridin is Taim, why have two Chosen at the Black Tower?

 

I've thought about it, but personally I don't think so. Osangar I think is there to keep a close watch on Rand, much like Arangar is there to keep a close watch on Egwene. And, following that reasoning, the balance would continue to Mesaana looking out for the WT, and similarly a male forsaken looking out for the BT. My bet on that is Demandred. Right after Rand put out the amnesty, Demandred is called to SG. Also in the forsaken meeting in WH, it's mentioned that Demandred was charged as well as Osangar with watching Rand. It's mentioned in sort of an afterthought, as if he isn't as directly involved as Osangar. Furthermore there is the fact that he personally orders ashaman to kill Rand which no other forsaken apart from Moridin has done.

 

However seeing as all the forsaken seem to know about this, his main position of power remains unknown. For the same reason I think that he's probably a little more hands-off than Mesaana as he has other things to do.

[dholm]

Quite touchy aren't you. Try not to get so emotional when someone posts something you don't agree with.

I am not being emotional. It is a ludicrous idea.

 

As far as Rand seeing Moridin as Moridin as opposed to Taim could be explained simply.

 

Moridin sees himself in the Moridin image and doesn't really like the Taim image. Since, that is how Moridin sees himself then that is how Rand sees him through their link and in the dream world (where you control every aspect of your appearance anyhow).

 

And if you found the last post ludicrous than you will surely find this one bordering on "plaid".

You build your argument on suppositions. I point out a hole in the argument, and you simply pull a solution out of thin air. How likely do you think that is to be true?

 

Considering how Rand sees Moridin as "clutching his head", he is clearly seeing his actual physical form, not merely a mental image.

 

There are no evidence whatsoever that either Taim or Moridin are works of Illusion. Based on their individual behavior, neither is shy about touching anyone, which is a necessity for someone hiding behind such a disguise. Rand touches both of them. He knows of Illusion, and would recognize if anything was off.

 

Relax, take a deep breath, exhale. Feel better?

Now you are just being condescending.

[TheAngryDruid]

I love how the anti-Taim=Moridin crowd never actually deal with some of the strongest evidence for the theory:

 

1) The Dark Aura around Taim (only seen around Rand and Ishamael).

 

Done many times. The dark "aura" around Taim is a thought from Elayne's POV. Elayne finds the man creepy, intimidating, and evil. The "aura" is just her impression of the man. He "seemed" to have a dark aura. Doesn't mean it was some actual visible darkening.

 

Or, he has access to the True Power. We see from Graendal that others still have access to it on a limited basis. Its possible that a valuable and competent channeler like Taim was using it at some point.

 

Keep in mind, there is no definitive proof that True Power usage causes any type of dark "aura". Moridin channels the True Power all the time and a visible darkness is almost never mentioned. The darkness around Rand could also just be people's impressions of him and his actions. He's acting all dark and scary. His Fisher King properties are dark and twisted and causing food to spoil. This would explain how people perceive the darkness around him.

 

2) Mordin standing and holding his hand like Rand in dreamland, then Taim doing it.

 

I don't remember this and no-one has provided an actual quote for Taim standing like Rand. That said, I will assume this is correct and argue that its coincidence and a red herring.

 

3) Why on earth would the power and knowledge hungry Forsaken turn over control of the BT to an inferior?

 

This argument has never made any sense to me. Why wouldn't they let Taim deal with the day to day trouble of running the Black Tower? He obviously does a good job. They are way too busy with their own plans to deal with running the Black Tower and training all these channelers. There is obviously oversight from Moridin and likely Demandred as well. You have a competent underling that can do the job, you let him do the job and just keep tabs on him. Moridin obviously spends a lot of time in the Blight, when would he have time to be doing everything running the Black Tower requires? The Black Tower is very important to Rand also, but he leaves it Taim to run for the same reason - he just doesn't have the time to do everything himself.

 

Look at this way. Let's say Taim is Moridin and he presents himself to Rand in Caemlyn. Rather then having him lead the Black Tower, there is a good chance that Rand will want to just keep this powerful and knowledgable channeler with him at all times (like he does with Corlan Dashiva and the others later on). In fact, this seems a more likely decision then the one that ended up being made with Taim in charge of the Black Tower. So now Taim/Moridin is stuck around Rand constantly. While this would have its uses, it leaves basically no time for Moridin to go about putting his other plans in place. Not the best course of action for the Nae'blis.

 

Yes, there are some good arguments (time, OP usage, orders) against the Taim=Moridin theory, but until the doubters can come up with a reasonable explanation for the Dark Aura around Taim, it is hard to take them seriously.

 

Apologies if this argument has been made and I missed it, and calling it a writing error or some such doesn't count.

 

None of those things I've just argued are unreasonable or hard to believe. Perhaps when those that believe Taim=Moridin give convincing arguments for why Taim/Moridin give differing orders to the rogue Asha'man, Moridin has time to run the Black Tower and be running things in the Blight, why Rand never sees Taim through his link with Moridin, why Moridin would appear as different people even to the Darkfriends, etc, etc then I will take them seriously. There is no way to explain away those problems without a lot of convoluted rationale. Taim is a well trained minion is a much more reasonable position.

 

Besides (and this isn't an actual argument) the story is just better if Taim is Taim and is a cool bad guy all on his own rather just being a facet of Moridin.

 

Thank you, and the others for responding. Some good points, and I'll try to respond in kind.

 

First, to adequately respond (if possible) to your points, I'm going to kind of summarize the argument for the theory, but before I do, I want to get to the three points I raised, and you were good enough to respond too. In short, I think I have a victory, you have one, and then a push.

 

1. The Dark Aura (Victory for my side)

While it is true that it is from Elayne's POV, I'll point out that BS seemed to confirm the connection between the dark aura around Rand and the one Elayne observed around Taim. Terez has it in the interview database, and it also appears in the comments to Linda's theory on Taim/Moridin at the 13th.

 

HBFFerreira on Twitter - 20 July 2010 2:35 pm

The Gathering Storm: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling the True Power, right? Winter's Heart prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

Brandon - 21 July 12:18 am

You're the first to notice that that I've seen.

 

https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_75dkr644fs&revision=_latest

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/trusted-smiler-with-knife-taimmoridin.html

 

Not only does this seem to confirm the aura, it also seems to confirm it's source. I'll just simply say that in light of the author's seeming confirmation of Taim's aura, and the fact it is from TP usage (which we know to be VERY restricted: Moridin, Rand, and a bit of Graendal), your protestations that it is all in Elayne's mind don't seem to hold much water.

 

Adding more fuel to the fire, is Pevara (a cool and steady mind if there ever was one) seems also to find an "air of darnkness" about Taim (KoD, Epilogue). So it isn't just Elayne. It is Elayne, Pevara, and Brandon.

 

Your point about Graendal it misses the point. Her access comes from Moridin as a special reward to the Chosen. It tends to prove my point, not yours. No way the DO (or Moridin) is letting average run of the mill dreadlords, or any non-Chosen, use the TP. Moridin gave it to her as a reward, but just a tiny bit at that. And she hasn't used enough to get an aura. At least, no one has ever observed one about her. Disguised or not.

 

Though, of course, just because Taim has used the TP doesn't necessarily make him Moridin, but boy, anything else is REALLY a stretch. For me, this is the strongest piece of evidence, with some apparent confirmation from Brandon, and is pretty close to game, set, match on the entire topic. Would you not agree? IF Taim is using the TP, which we've only seen 3 people use in the entire series: Ishy/Moridin, Graendal, and Rand (maybe Aginor in EoTW?), it puts a serious dent in the pupil/dreadlord theory, I'd say it destroys it.

 

-------------------------

 

2. Taim/Moridin imitating Rand's characteristics via the Link (holding his hand, standing, Warder's Grace). But I think you win this one, in the main.

 

The Dark Aura is just one of many examples of ways in which Taim seems to mirror Ishameal, and one where he seems to mirror Rand (through the Moridin/Rand link). Additionally, he wears Moridin's colors, displays a Forsaken/DO sigil, uses Second Age terminology, references, and Second Age knowledge.

 

First off, let me retract what I said, Moridin has displayed most, but not all, of the mirroring of Rand, Taim is mostly mirroring Moridin. I believe I said Taim was standing like Rand, when it was in fact Moridin, so you were correct there. Though there is one instance of Taim mirroring Rand. Here's the examples I could find:

 

Moridin. First, we have the hints from Moridin in TGS, Prolgoue, from Graendal's POV: "Moridin looked down, flexing his left hand, as if it were stiff. Graendal caught a hint of pain in his expression." No wonder he's upset Rand got hurt, it hurts him too.

 

More Moridin mirroring. Second, same chapter, "He stood against the mantle, back mostly to her. He seemed to be staring at nothing, just looking at the black stones of the far wall. Strangely, he look a great deal like al'Thor --of whom she had numerous sketches via her spies--when he stood like that."

 

Moridin. Third, TGS, 15 "A Place to Begin." The Moridin/Rand dream sequence. "I feel so tired," Moridin continued, closing his eyes. "Is that you, or is it me? I could throttle Semirhage for what she did."

 

And finally, confirmation of the obvious from Moridin himself (as if it was needed): "We are connected," Moridin finally said. "That is how you came here (to his dream), I suspect, though I do not understand our bond myself."

 

I believe there is also a passage of Moridin standing with one arm behind his back (like Rand), but I can't find it now.

 

Now, we don't see much of Taim on screen after the Moridin/Rand bond at the end of ACoS. I don't believe he appears on screen in tPoD (though Rand gets a letter from him, and he he's mentioned as telling Rand Elayne took down his banners in Caemlyn near the end in CH. 29, A Cup of Sleep).

 

I believe the first time we see Taim after ACoS is when Elayne sees him in WH, Prologue. And in addition to the very real Aura of Darkness, she notes that he moves "with something of a Warder's deadly grace." Why is this significant. Because at first, Taim is disdainful of swords and displays nothing of the kind, even dismissing the man Rand had assigned to teach the men at the farm the sword. Nor is Moridin/Ishy accounted a great soldier. And now a Warder's deadly grace, or something like it. Elayne should have a good eye for it, being AS and all.

 

I think he's getting it from the bond with Rand. Along with the stances of Moridin.

 

Now, I don't believe Taim appears on screen at all in the rest of WH, or tPoD, or CoT, and only gets a brief appearance at the end of KoD when Pevara goes and gets the "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" line. I don't believe he's been on-screen in TGS or ToM. So we'll see. I don't have my copies of CoT and KoD handy, but I think I'm on the money there.

-----------------------

 

3. Handing over the BT to a non-Forsaken (push).

 

This one is the least impactful of the 3 I mentioned, and probably doesn't belong with the others, and you do respond directly. But why? Because it gives someone who isn't a Chosen access to a power base of channelers greater than any on the planet, possibly. More than Mesaana at the WT. Maybe even more than Semi had with the Seanchan. And more dangerous ones at that. The Forsaken have been shown to hoard knowledge and power for fear of one the 3rd agers getting knowledge and strength together (I believe the quote was the chosen wanting to prevent knowledge and strength from residing together), though I can't remember if it was Moggy (relating to Liandrin's 13), Graendal (with the Aiel), Mesaana at the tower, all of them, or another. Point being, we've seen that worry from Forsaken before, and now they suddenly teach someone a method of healing that hasn't been known since the breaking (which Taim teaches to Flinn), and entrust him with 1,000 male channelers who see him as the leader?

 

Even if Moridin (or someone else) is checking in periodically on Taim, if the students don't know who they are (and most wouldn't), then Taim still has the power as he has the loyalty of both the DF Asha'man and non-Darkfriend Asha'man. A best a Forsaken could only claim the former.

 

In short, it makes Taim a threat to their power and authority. This is something Forsaken don't create, they avoid creating.

 

Though it doesn't do much either way in terms of direct proof.

 

======================================

 

As for your points.

 

1) Conflicting orders.

 

OK. One, he doesn't think the AM will succeed, so it doesn't matter. Two, he's playing both sides of the board, as we've literally seen him do with the game board and the Fisher king. It wouldn't be the first time a Forsaken (or DF) seemed to dance around orders given for their own purposes. Three, we've also seen him change his mind about killing Rand before. Fourth: the orders don't really conflict. Moridin didn't explicitly say not to kill him, but to do it if he had to and bring him the possessions as being more important. He was more ambivalent to killing him than not. Fifth: it was early after the bond was created, and he may not have fully realized the scope of the bond between them yet. Once he figures it out later, he stops telling people to kill Rand and is not merely ambivalent about it like he was before, but wholly against.

 

And, by the way, if you are the camp that says he's Moridin's lackey. The orders still conflict. One of the above explanations would then have to be used to explain that. If so, then why not Moridin. It isn't like he's a schemer or anything.

 

2) Time.

 

We've seen numerous examples through the series of areas where time flows differently. Portal Stones to other worlds. Vacuoles where I believe Moggy was raped repeatedly. Any could be used for him to make up time lost or gain needed time. They could do trainings in one (as the fact that the AM who get the private lessons from Taim may intimate). We've seen that even relatively early on, Taim farmed out the recruiting trips, assuring Rand he had men who could handle themselves. At first, maybe he did. But once he could teach them the test, he let them loose and concentrated on picking out recruits and sub ranks so he could have more off time. And really, all he needs to do is tell the AM to leave him alone (in his well guarded Mansion), set a ward/chime of some kind, and if someone comes in, he can gate back in.

 

Difficult, but not impossible by any means. And we do see from the dream sequence he is very tired. Maybe stretching himself too thin?

------------------------

3) Rand seeing Taim through the Moridin link.

 

This is easy, and I'm not sure why it is such a big deal. We're not sure of much on how this works. So I don't really see why it is a problem either way. Do we know from somewhere that Rand would necessarily see a power woven disguise in his visions rather than the real person with whom he is bonded? Or to coin one of your favorite defenses, maybe it is just coincidence.

 

But I much favor the following. Moridin thinks of himself as Moridin. Taim is a disguise. Rand's bond is to Moridin. Thus he is going to see Moridin, not the disguise. Note that Rand sees Moridin, not Ishamael/Ba'alzamon. Cyndane appears as Cyndane to Rand, not Lanfear, because that is who she is now. The soul adapts a bit to the body. As Aran'gar did as we've seen from her/his POV's.

-----------------------

 

4) Why Moridin appears as different people, even to Darkfriends.

 

Have you seriously been reading the same books? There could be a thousand reasons. And we've seen the Chosen disguise themselves a ton of times. The most obvious one is Moridin doesn't want the other Chosen to know what he is up to, or where. It's not as if they've ever expressed a thought about bumping each other off, and we've seen them actually do so. And having a bunch of DF's see him as him would be like a big arrow (as we've seen Graendal has agents reporting on Messy's activities). He doesn't want the same thing happening to him. He wasn't Nae'blis when this all started. And even after he is, he knows the others would still plot against him, if not act openly.

 

Also, he could be playing both sides of the board, as we've seen him do numerous times.

 

It's not as if we haven't seen Chosen seek info from others about their plans (Graendal, Lanfear, Moggy) and bemoan the lack. It's not as if we haven't seen Chosen hide their identities from Darkfriends or others (Mesaana, Sammael, Graendal, Moggy, Lanfear, Asmodean).

-------------------------------------------

 

Again, I've acknowledged the time and the orders thing as the trickiest, and gave a plausible, if somewhat stretched, explanation for both. The other two are just silly IMHO. They prove nothing, and I answered both.

 

----------

 

In sum, we have the author seemingly confirming both the existence of the Dark Aura and it's causes. We have the fact that we've never seen a non-Chosen DF granted that power. We've seen numerous instances of Moridin & Rand mirroring each other, and now a guy who hates swords is suddenly walking about with a Warder's deadly grace? He also speaks like a 2nd Ager, has knowledge only a second ager would know, or a pupil (healing, testing, non-sweating). He wears Moridin's colors. He uses Forsaken symbols. He has more knowledge and power, together, and he is head of arguably the most dangerous force of channelers on the planet.

 

Doesn't sound like anything but a Chosen to me. Then again, we'll see.

[chuckievi]

Your sentence at the end sums up my position. I think Taim is a 4th age Chosen, and I had thought that as of WH all Chosen still had access to the TP.

[capuga]

1. The Dark Aura (Victory for my side)

While it is true that it is from Elayne's POV, I'll point out that BS seemed to confirm the connection between the dark aura around Rand and the one Elayne observed around Taim. Terez has it in the interview database, and it also appears in the comments to Linda's theory on Taim/Moridin at the 13th.

 

HBFFerreira on Twitter - 20 July 2010 2:35 pm

The Gathering Storm: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling the True Power, right? Winter's Heart prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

Brandon - 21 July 12:18 am

You're the first to notice that that I've seen.

 

https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_75dkr644fs&revision=_latest

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2001/07/trusted-smiler-with-knife-taimmoridin.html

 

Not only does this seem to confirm the aura, it also seems to confirm it's source. I'll just simply say that in light of the author's seeming confirmation of Taim's aura, and the fact it is from TP usage (which we know to be VERY restricted: Moridin, Rand, and a bit of Graendal), your protestations that it is all in Elayne's mind don't seem to hold much water.

 

All he's confirmed there is that there was a similarity between Rand and Taim. He doesn't comment on the True Power, that is the questioner's assumption. Nor does he explicity say that there is a visible darkness around either. I read that as confirmation that at this point Dark Rand and Taim are perceived by others around them in a similar manner - as kinda bad people. I think this was just to illustrate how far down the path of darkness Rand had fallen.

 

Adding more fuel to the fire, is Pevara (a cool and steady mind if there ever was one) seems also to find an "air of darnkness" about Taim (KoD, Epilogue). So it isn't just Elayne. It is Elayne, Pevara, and Brandon.

 

Still her perception. People who are laughing and joking have "a twinkle in their eyes". Your eyes don't actually have a visible twinkle. That's just how people interpret it (and an author describes it) when they are acting an a laughing manner.

 

Your point about Graendal it misses the point. Her access comes from Moridin as a special reward to the Chosen.

 

As would Taim's usage be a reward for the excellent job he is doing at the Black Tower. My point it that we have seen True Power usage given out to others besides Moridin as a reward. It wouldn't surprise me that Taim had use of it either. Note, I don't really believe this and still believe the "dark aura" to be a way of describing how people feel being around bad people.

 

I believe the first time we see Taim after ACoS is when Elayne sees him in WH, Prologue. And in addition to the very real Aura of Darkness, she notes that he moves "with something of a Warder's deadly grace." Why is this significant. Because at first, Taim is disdainful of swords and displays nothing of the kind, even dismissing the man Rand had assigned to teach the men at the farm the sword. Nor is Moridin/Ishy accounted a great soldier. And now a Warder's deadly grace, or something like it. Elayne should have a good eye for it, being AS and all.

 

What is the Warder's grace? I've always viewed it just as a way of moving with a self confidence and assurance. An almost cocky belief that you can handle anything that comes your way. It does not have to denote martial skill. And Taim is certainly cocky enough to walk with an assured strut. Also, as a Borderlander, Taim would have had weapons training. Looking down upon a sword because you have a better weapon (channeling) does not mean that you can't use the sword.

 

And it shouldn't take a leak of martial grace from Rand through the link to have Moridin display a Warder's grace. He's pretty handy with a weapon himself. Remember he fought Rand to a standstill with his staff in tGH. The same Rand who had just killed a blademaster in a swordfight. (Not sure who's side this argument helps.)

 

Even if Moridin (or someone else) is checking in periodically on Taim, if the students don't know who they are (and most wouldn't), then Taim still has the power as he has the loyalty of both the DF Asha'man and non-Darkfriend Asha'man. A best a Forsaken could only claim the former.

 

In short, it makes Taim a threat to their power and authority. This is something Forsaken don't create, they avoid creating.

 

It not a threat if your relatively trusted underling is doing what he is supposed to be doing and you have oversight over him. Moridin would be confident that he could kill Taim if he became a problem.

 

1) Conflicting orders.

 

OK. One, he doesn't think the AM will succeed, so it doesn't matter. Two, he's playing both sides of the board, as we've literally seen him do with the game board and the Fisher king. It wouldn't be the first time a Forsaken (or DF) seemed to dance around orders given for their own purposes. Three, we've also seen him change his mind about killing Rand before. Fourth: the orders don't really conflict. Moridin didn't explicitly say not to kill him, but to do it if he had to and bring him the possessions as being more important. He was more ambivalent to killing him than not. Fifth: it was early after the bond was created, and he may not have fully realized the scope of the bond between them yet. Once he figures it out later, he stops telling people to kill Rand and is not merely ambivalent about it like he was before, but wholly against.

 

There is enough of a difference between the orders that this should not be just dismissed away. Taim's orders are to kill Rand. Moridin's orders are to kill him if you must but bring back his possessions above all else. It is clear that the CK are the most important thing to Moridin. What happens if the Asha'man just follow Taim's orders and kill him. Then you do not get the thing that's most important in the CK. If the same person issued both orders they would be risking missing out on getting the CK which is what Moridin really wanted.

 

And, by the way, if you are the camp that says he's Moridin's lackey. The orders still conflict. One of the above explanations would then have to be used to explain that. If so, then why not Moridin. It isn't like he's a schemer or anything.

 

Because Moridin has oversight over Taim but Taim still has enough autonomy to issue orders and run things his way under Moridin's overall plan. He knew the do not kill order had been lifted but didn't know anything about the CK. So he just told the Asha'man to kill him.

 

We've seen numerous examples through the series of areas where time flows differently. Portal Stones to other worlds. Vacuoles where I believe Moggy was raped repeatedly. Any could be used for him to make up time lost or gain needed time. They could do trainings in one (as the fact that the AM who get the private lessons from Taim may intimate). We've seen that even relatively early on, Taim farmed out the recruiting trips, assuring Rand he had men who could handle themselves. At first, maybe he did. But once he could teach them the test, he let them loose and concentrated on picking out recruits and sub ranks so he could have more off time. And really, all he needs to do is tell the AM to leave him alone (in his well guarded Mansion), set a ward/chime of some kind, and if someone comes in, he can gate back in.

 

We've only seen one mention of vacuoles and in that mention they talk about how they are unstable and libel to break off the Pattern at any time and therefore incredibly unsafe. Its unlikely this would be used regularly. Also, we have no indication that Taim is ever gone from the Black Tower. It's possible since he's usually secluded in his palace, but we don't have any evidence that he is actually doing anything but giving classes to his darkfriend students. Things like using vacuoles to explain away problems with the theory are what I mean when I say that convoluted rationale have to be used if this theory is to be correct.

 

3) Rand seeing Taim through the Moridin link.

 

This is easy, and I'm not sure why it is such a big deal.

 

It's not. Just a minor piece of evidence to include in the Taim is not Moridin debate.

 

But I much favor the following. Moridin thinks of himself as Moridin. Taim is a disguise. Rand's bond is to Moridin. Thus he is going to see Moridin, not the disguise. Note that Rand sees Moridin, not Ishamael/Ba'alzamon. Cyndane appears as Cyndane to Rand, not Lanfear, because that is who she is now. The soul adapts a bit to the body. As Aran'gar did as we've seen from her/his POV's.

 

Cyndane appears as Cyndane because that is how she physically looks. With her arrogance, she almost certainly still sees herself as Lanfear and would appear that way if she could. Moridin has no warning when Rand sees him through their bond. The most likely reason that Rand sees Moridin during these surprise visits is because that's who he looks like. He never sees Taim (who Moridin would have to spend a fair amount of time as) because he is not linked to Taim. That's the simplest explanation.

 

4) Why Moridin appears as different people, even to Darkfriends.

 

Have you seriously been reading the same books? There could be a thousand reasons. And we've seen the Chosen disguise themselves a ton of times. The most obvious one is Moridin doesn't want the other Chosen to know what he is up to, or where. It's not as if they've ever expressed a thought about bumping each other off, and we've seen them actually do so. And having a bunch of DF's see him as him would be like a big arrow (as we've seen Graendal has agents reporting on Messy's activities). He doesn't want the same thing happening to him. He wasn't Nae'blis when this all started. And even after he is, he knows the others would still plot against him, if not act openly.

 

Also, he could be playing both sides of the board, as we've seen him do numerous times.

 

It's not as if we haven't seen Chosen seek info from others about their plans (Graendal, Lanfear, Moggy) and bemoan the lack. It's not as if we haven't seen Chosen hide their identities from Darkfriends or others (Mesaana, Sammael, Graendal, Moggy, Lanfear, Asmodean).

 

But Moridin doesn't have to play those games, and in fact we do not see him play those games. He is firmly Nae'bliss and rules with a firm hand. We never see him worrying about whether anyone is plotting against him and we don't see him plotting to undermine the other Forsaken. In fact, all indications are that he knows exactly what all the other Forsaken are up to. He has no need to play games. He certainly has no need to maintain a facade for a bunch of flunkies like the rogue Asha'man.

[herid]

 

 

But Moridin doesn't have to play those games, and in fact we do not see him play those games. He is firmly Nae'bliss and rules with a firm hand. We never see him worrying about whether anyone is plotting against him and we don't see him plotting to undermine the other Forsaken. In fact, all indications are that he knows exactly what all the other Forsaken are up to. He has no need to play games. He certainly has no need to maintain a facade for a bunch of flunkies like the rogue Asha'man.

Moridin does have to play those games. we just don't get that many Moridin's POVs to see it. but he knows full well that all the other Forsaken want to take his place. and they do want it very much. every single one that gets some POVs expresses that desire. Moridin would be crazy not to consider it. Moreover he does remark on it himself in his earliest POV as the watcher before he becomes Naeb'lis himself.

The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker’s mask. Nae’blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true. The Great Lord delighted in setting his servants one against another, to see who was stronger. Only the strongest could stand near his glory. But today’s truth need not be tomorrow’s. The watcher had seen truth change a hundred times between a single sunrise and sunset. More than once he had changed it himself.

-CoS, Ch 20

do you think he would forget all of that once he became Nae'blis?

[Gathering Storman Norman]

Quite touchy aren't you. Try not to get so emotional when someone posts something you don't agree with.

I am not being emotional. It is a ludicrous idea.

 

As far as Rand seeing Moridin as Moridin as opposed to Taim could be explained simply.

 

Moridin sees himself in the Moridin image and doesn't really like the Taim image. Since, that is how Moridin sees himself then that is how Rand sees him through their link and in the dream world (where you control every aspect of your appearance anyhow).

 

And if you found the last post ludicrous than you will surely find this one bordering on "plaid".

You build your argument on suppositions. I point out a hole in the argument, and you simply pull a solution out of thin air. How likely do you think that is to be true?

 

Considering how Rand sees Moridin as "clutching his head", he is clearly seeing his actual physical form, not merely a mental image.

 

There are no evidence whatsoever that either Taim or Moridin are works of Illusion. Based on their individual behavior, neither is shy about touching anyone, which is a necessity for someone hiding behind such a disguise. Rand touches both of them. He knows of Illusion, and would recognize if anything was off.

 

Relax, take a deep breath, exhale. Feel better?

Now you are just being condescending.

Nope not condescending at all, just tring to lighten the moos.

 

It was right after my "plaid" comment, trying to tie yore ludicrous comment. Not a "Space Balls" fan I see.

 

I offereda fairly reasonable explanation for your rebuke and you counter with your own "thin air" argument.

 

So when Rand has a viewing in his head of Moridin grabbing his head it couldn't possibly be how Moridin sees himself.

 

Makes sense, so I guess only your assumptions hold any valid weight. Yeah, that makes sense! (that was intended to be condescending or sarcastic, take your pick).

 

The bad part is, I don't even think Taim is Moridin. I was just offering a possible explanation as to how he could be, but I guess not being you I couldn't possibly offer anything but ludicrous, thin aired, SWAGs.

 

My apologies! (more sarcasm)

[mb]

I think the most important argument for Taim being a newly elevated chosen is not his amount of power or whatever, remember what Verin said in ToM: "The quality the DO is looking for mostly in his leaders is SELFISHNESS, that makes them predictable. Taim is very selfish, he is turning the DT to support him and not Rand. With the dark tower under his control even Moridin should fear him. I think Taim is also under the DO protection since we have seen many Ashaman go mad, or seeing things and Taim still shows not 1 sign of madness. I think he might have been Moridins pupil for some time, and maybe in Moridin's eyes he still is. Taim is on a rise of power under the shadow and the DO doesn't care, he favours the one that "Brings him armies" Taim has an army of channelers and IMO he might be favoured most of all forsaken. The DO will simply see how it plays out, either taim beats moridin or moridin beats him, the DO isn't concerned who is nae'blis, as long as he has his army.

The quote beginning with "The quality", you forgot to place the second mark; that implies she said the whole thing.

Verin's comment about selfishness; there is a similar one in Gathering Storm; her meeting with Egwene.

[ckennedy1982]

Hello i am new to these forums and i have to admit, i'm reading some intresting theories about Mazrim Taim but if i can maybe mentions something that i've read from the books. Everything seems to be connected from one book to the next, whether its Rands fight for his soul or Perrins fight with the "Wolf" maybe Mazrims Taim is a chosen or maybe not but i fully believe that Logain will bring him down NOT Rand purely on the fact that they have been connected throughout the series, although belatedly when Logain regains his powers and joins the Black Tower and i say Logain believes in Rand if you carefully read the books. PS when i say Logain believes in Rand in one book he clearlys states that when he clasped eyes on Rand he knew he was the Dragon Reborn. Just a thought though.

.

[capuga]

Hello i am new to these forums and i have to admit, i'm reading some intresting theories about Mazrim Taim but if i can maybe mentions something that i've read from the books. Everything seems to be connected from one book to the next, whether its Rands fight for his soul or Perrins fight with the "Wolf" maybe Mazrims Taim is a chosen or maybe not but i fully believe that Logain will bring him down NOT Rand purely on the fact that they have been connected throughout the series, although belatedly when Logain regains his powers and joins the Black Tower and i say Logain believes in Rand if you carefully read the books. PS when i say Logain believes in Rand in one book he clearlys states that when he clasped eyes on Rand he knew he was the Dragon Reborn. Just a thought though.

.

 

Welcome to the boards! Many (maybe even most) people believe that the glory Min sees in her viewings for Logain revolves around him defeating Taim and becoming leader of the male channelers. I'm one that believes this so I agree with you that Logain will be the one to take down Taim. It makes sense for the viewings and thematically, plus Rand's just got too much else on his plate.

[seanzor]

Your point about Graendal it misses the point. Her access comes from Moridin as a special reward to the Chosen. It tends to prove my point, not yours. No way the DO (or Moridin) is letting average run of the mill dreadlords, or any non-Chosen, use the TP. Moridin gave it to her as a reward, but just a tiny bit at that. And she hasn't used enough to get an aura.

 

If Moridin can award usage of the TP wouldn't it make sense that he allow his most trusted #2 to use it. First if he could trust him enough to run the black tower he could probably trust him to use the TP. Also the TP could be used as a tool to keep Taim loyal because isn't the TP described as even more wondrous and addicting than the OP. Wouldn't Moridin be safe because he would be Taim's only way of getting the TP.

 

Also I think your point about him being a forsaken and not being able to trust anybody doesn't work because Lanfear shows forsaken are able to love, so why is it so improbable that one would have a trusted friend?