Who created the Creator?

[GrandpaG]

From my teenage years (some long while ago) I remember a discussion about infinite size increase and decrease of worlds. The example was that our Milky Way could be imagined as a small energy particle within an atom. That atom could be part of a water molecule made up of countless other atoms all containing Milky Ways of their own. Countless numbers of these water molecules could be joined to form a droplet. Enough of those droplets could form an ocean on a world similar to ours only immensely larger. That world could be in a solar system in it's own Milky Way which was but an energy particle within it's atom. This expansion could go on forever. Likewise, a drop of water in our ocean could contain an infinite number of ever smaller Milky Ways. Always bigger. Always smaller.

 

Now to the topic.

 

The Wheel of Time spins out the Pattern. The Creator and the Dark One are products of the Pattern. Who created the Wheel of Time? Is THAT Creator the product of a larger Wheel? And is THAT Wheel a product of a larger Creator who was made by a yet larger Wheel? Now, go the other way. If the Randland Creator made a Wheel, it could spin out a sub-Pattern. That Pattern could spin out it's own Creator which could create another smaller Wheel and so on.

 

Not that any of this matters. No, I don't use LSD!

[Erunion]

I don't have the quotes on me, but I believe that RJ said that the Creator and the Dark One are outside of the Wheel. The Wheel Of Time is creation, although it's quite possible that the Creator created other worlds (as Rand hypothesized half-way through the series).

Likely, RJ's Creator has a similar beginning to the Judeo-Christian Creator - He Is, ("I am that I am"), infinite and uncreated with no beginning and no end, as He (I use 'He' as that is what is used when referring to the Judeo-Christian Creator, I'm not sure if it applies to RJ's Creator though...) is outside of the time-space continuum. As the Creator exists outside of time, there is no need for him to have been created, as there is no need for him to have had a beginning. No time = no beginning.

 

Yes, that is a very trippy thought. No, I don't use LSD either.

[Xader]

I don't have the quotes on me, but I believe that RJ said that the Creator and the Dark One are outside of the Wheel. The Wheel Of Time is creation, although it's quite possible that the Creator created other worlds (as Rand hypothesized half-way through the series).

Likely, RJ's Creator has a similar beginning to the Judeo-Christian Creator - He Is, ("I am that I am"), infinite and uncreated with no beginning and no end, as He (I use 'He' as that is what is used when referring to the Judeo-Christian Creator, I'm not sure if it applies to RJ's Creator though...) is outside of the time-space continuum. As the Creator exists outside of time, there is no need for him to have been created, as there is no need for him to have had a beginning. No time = no beginning.

 

Yes, that is a very trippy thought. No, I don't use LSD either.

 

I always thought of the Creator as a parallel of God, YHWH, etc. The Creator bears more resemblance to the Judeo-Christian God than to any other monotheistic deity I can think of.

[jwillis7]

Robert Jordan created the Creator, so the real question is who created Robert Jordan

[OptimusPrime]

Robert Jordan created the Creator, so the real question is who created Robert Jordan

 

And the next question would be who created Chuck Norris?

[IzaliaFox]

Robert Jordan created the Creator, so the real question is who created Robert Jordan

 

exactly!

[Erunion]

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

[mb]

Like another, I think the Creator does not have a beginning; so "no one"/nothing created Him.

[GrandpaG]

Robert Jordan created the Creator, so the real question is who created Robert Jordan

 

 

Believe it or don't, but I was going to use this...you beat me to it.

 

 

In one of my posts in the "Way of the Leaf" thread I let one of the characters visit his Creator's home (my house). He was amazed at what luxury the Creator lived in. Compared to a Tinker's wagon my house is a palace. Refrigerator. Hot water. Microwave. TV. Stereo. My world is magical in his eyes.

 

Yes, RJ is the answer to the question in the title of this post. Mystery solved.

 

Who created RJ? His parents. Who created them? Their parents. And so on, and so on. Go back far enough and you have lightning striking a mud puddle on a lifeless rock floating through space. So who created that lifeless rock? The mud puddle? The lightning? See posts above.

 

"Sometimes reality depends upon what you believe to be true." -- GrandpaG original created just this moment especially for you.

 

Love,

Gramps

[jwillis7]

Robert Jordan created the Creator, so the real question is who created Robert Jordan

 

Believe it or don't, but I was going to use this...you beat me to it.

 

 

haha i'm so fast i beat you from posting something on a topic you made...flash watch out here comes jwilli

[mb]

Of course the author would be the creator of anything in fiction.

Who/What created the author might be more reasonable in the Debates & Discussions section.

[Luckers]

There is nothing to actually indicate that the Creator claims to be the original originator (first cause, whatever). I mean he is not the Judeo-Christian God. He created this world, yes, but there is nothing to say that there aren't things that existed before him. That he wasn't made himself.

 

I don't have the quotes on me, but I believe that RJ said that the Creator and the Dark One are outside of the Wheel. The Wheel Of Time is creation, although it's quite possible that the Creator created other worlds (as Rand hypothesized half-way through the series).

 

That was Moridin's thought, that slipped through the link to Rand. And it was stated as a fact, not a hypothesis--its possible Moridin was making assumptions--on the other hand he was a pre-eminent philosopher, so if anyone was in a position to know, it'd be him.

 

I always thought of the Creator as a parallel of God, YHWH, etc. The Creator bears more resemblance to the Judeo-Christian God than to any other monotheistic deity I can think of.

 

Actually I'd say that the Creator/Dark One pantheon bears far more similarity to the zoroasterian Spenta Mainyu/Angra Mainyu opposition than it does the Judeo-Christian God.

[Mr Ares]

I don't have the quotes on me, but I believe that RJ said that the Creator and the Dark One are outside of the Wheel. The Wheel Of Time is creation, although it's quite possible that the Creator created other worlds (as Rand hypothesized half-way through the series).

 

That was Moridin's thought, that slipped through the link to Rand. And it was stated as a fact, not a hypothesis--its possible Moridin was making assumptions--on the other hand he was a pre-eminent philosopher, so if anyone was in a position to know, it'd be him.

I find the idea that that thought was Moridin's to be rather doubtful - the evidence suggests it is Rand's.

[Luckers]

I don't have the quotes on me, but I believe that RJ said that the Creator and the Dark One are outside of the Wheel. The Wheel Of Time is creation, although it's quite possible that the Creator created other worlds (as Rand hypothesized half-way through the series).

 

That was Moridin's thought, that slipped through the link to Rand. And it was stated as a fact, not a hypothesis--its possible Moridin was making assumptions--on the other hand he was a pre-eminent philosopher, so if anyone was in a position to know, it'd be him.

I find the idea that that thought was Moridin's to be rather doubtful - the evidence suggests it is Rand's.

 

I think the evidence clearly points at it being Moridin.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on

that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nodding in

approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered

before Lews Therin.

 

Rand clearly doesn't feel the thoughts are his own, and the only reason he even considers it is that he knows they aren't Lews Therin's--and even then he is doubtful and confused. It's a matter of him saying to himself 'they aren't Lews Therin's, so they must be mine, no matter how strange that is. After all, who else could they have been?'. The answer is Moridin--who, as a philosopher, fits the tone and scope of those thoughts in a way that Rand--as he himself points out--does not. Moreover had Rand had a better understanding of the strength of the link between himself and Moridin, he would have come to the same conclusion.

[OptimusPrime]

Of course the author would be the creator of anything in fiction.

Who/What created the author might be more reasonable in the Debates & Discussions section.

 

Oh man, this is just pure gold.

[dscott8]

I like Mark Twain's answer to this question, from The Mysterious Stranger.

 

Neither this world nor Randland really exists. There is nothing in existence but YOU, a formless, eternal mind in a void. You have imagined ALL of what you consider to be "reality", including the existence of books and their contents.

[Mr Ares]

I don't have the quotes on me, but I believe that RJ said that the Creator and the Dark One are outside of the Wheel. The Wheel Of Time is creation, although it's quite possible that the Creator created other worlds (as Rand hypothesized half-way through the series).

 

That was Moridin's thought, that slipped through the link to Rand. And it was stated as a fact, not a hypothesis--its possible Moridin was making assumptions--on the other hand he was a pre-eminent philosopher, so if anyone was in a position to know, it'd be him.

I find the idea that that thought was Moridin's to be rather doubtful - the evidence suggests it is Rand's.

 

I think the evidence clearly points at it being Moridin.

 

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on

that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nodding in

approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered

before Lews Therin.

 

Rand clearly doesn't feel the thoughts are his own, and the only reason he even considers it is that he knows they aren't Lews Therin's--and even then he is doubtful and confused. It's a matter of him saying to himself 'they aren't Lews Therin's, so they must be mine, no matter how strange that is. After all, who else could they have been?'. The answer is Moridin--who, as a philosopher, fits the tone and scope of those thoughts in a way that Rand--as he himself points out--does not. Moreover had Rand had a better understanding of the strength of the link between himself and Moridin, he would have come to the same conclusion.

Given our understanding of the bond between Rand and Moridin, it is still quite a leap - Rand picking up on Moridin's specific thoughts, in relation to his reflection on comments Logain had made to him? No, there really isn't anyone else whose thoughts they could be. Rand is not used to going on like that in his thoughts, true, but suggesting that he could wax philosphocial in his thoughts from time to time now is more reasonable than Rand just happening to pick up on something Moridin was thinking in a way that was utterly seamless to it being Rand's own thought - and have we seen anything else like that before or since? Not that I can recall.

[Luckers]

Quite simply, I disagree. Given our understanding of the Link--including but not limited to the transferral of physical pain and of the sensation that they should be able to touch each other with only the slightest effort, then I do not find it to be a leap at all to attribute these thoughts to Moridin. Perhaps most significant is your question of us not having seen this element before or since--this would not be the only singular instance of Link phenomena--for instance the sensation that they could touch occurs only once.

 

That it occurs only once is not an argument against it being Moridin as many--almost all--of the Link's manifestations are unique, each in their own way. The Link is constantly evolving.

 

These thoughts match neither Rand nor Lews Therin. They match Moridin. Rand denies that they are his own. He realises that they are not Lews Therin. He is then at a loss as to whose they are--the answer is Moridin.

[capuga]

I tend to think that that scene was more to indicate a "merging" of Rand and LTT rather than Rand and Moridin. Although LTT wasn't a philosopher, he was a well educated man who likely had those types of musings. I thought the scene was just to show how integrated LTT's thoughts and mannerisms were becoming with Rand's own.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i don't think the thoughts were anyone's but rand's. he's often confused regarding the origin of his own thoughts, so his musing that the thoughts were not his is nothing new. the simplest explanation is that they are his own thoughts, just as all the thoughts he perceived as LT's were his own thoughts.

 

as rand evolves into his role as the creator's champion, his mind should naturally tend toward the metaphysical. the kabbalah, among other metaphysical traditions, teaches that as creatures behave and think more like the creator, they become more like the creator and can eventually step beyond time and space and become so much like the creator that there's no difference. i think RJ knew more about this than he advertised, as there are many kabbalistic symbols among the masonic and messianic ones in the WOT.

 

 

re the subtitle of the OP - the egg came first. there were lots of eggs around before there were any chickens.

[Jarviee]

I don't have the quotes on me, but I believe that RJ said that the Creator and the Dark One are outside of the Wheel. The Wheel Of Time is creation, although it's quite possible that the Creator created other worlds (as Rand hypothesized half-way through the series).

Likely, RJ's Creator has a similar beginning to the Judeo-Christian Creator - He Is, ("I am that I am"), infinite and uncreated with no beginning and no end, as He (I use 'He' as that is what is used when referring to the Judeo-Christian Creator, I'm not sure if it applies to RJ's Creator though...) is outside of the time-space continuum. As the Creator exists outside of time, there is no need for him to have been created, as there is no need for him to have had a beginning. No time = no beginning.

 

Yes, that is a very trippy thought. No, I don't use LSD either.

 

I always thought of the Creator as a parallel of God, YHWH, etc. The Creator bears more resemblance to the Judeo-Christian God than to any other monotheistic deity I can think of.

 

In Robert Jordan's obituary, he is said to have been a Practicing Christian.

 

I too am a Christian and when ever the Creator is brought up I see a lot of Parallels with the Alpha Omega. Word.

[Mr Ares]

Quite simply, I disagree. Given our understanding of the Link--including but not limited to the transferral of physical pain and of the sensation that they should be able to touch each other with only the slightest effort, then I do not find it to be a leap at all to attribute these thoughts to Moridin. Perhaps most significant is your question of us not having seen this element before or since--this would not be the only singular instance of Link phenomena--for instance the sensation that they could touch occurs only once.

 

That it occurs only once is not an argument against it being Moridin as many--almost all--of the Link's manifestations are unique, each in their own way. The Link is constantly evolving.

 

These thoughts match neither Rand nor Lews Therin. They match Moridin. Rand denies that they are his own. He realises that they are not Lews Therin. He is then at a loss as to whose they are--the answer is Moridin.

I'm not all that convinced that the thoughts do match Moridin all that closely. You don't need to be a philosopher by trade to think philosophical thoughts, and this is clearly a sentiment LTT agrees with - and Rand doesn't disagree with it, he just thinks it's not like him to go on like that. On the other hand, the philosophy is not Moridin's nihilism, it's simply an ackowledgement that the Creator doesn't interfere in their lives in the way Logain thought he had in the Cleansing. Other manifestations of the link might be one off, but they are generally known to be caused by the link - the sensation of almost being able to touch, for example, is clearly not a natural occurence. With this thought there is precisely nothing to indicate that it has to come from a source outside Rand. It is simply an unusual thought for him. The mundane explanation is supported by the text, the supernatural explanation isn't even hinted at. Rand is left thinking the thought is his, but unlike him, not wondering where it came from.

[Nooska]

I like Mark Twain's answer to this question, from The Mysterious Stranger.

 

Neither this world nor Randland really exists. There is nothing in existence but YOU, a formless, eternal mind in a void. You have imagined ALL of what you consider to be "reality", including the existence of books and their contents.

Thats not Twain, thats Descartes or Gorgias - the idea presented is basic metaphysical solipsism