Egwene al'Vere = Latra Posae reborn

[b3arz3rg3r]

I don't recall aes sedai ever deciding to work with Rand if they could help it

Aside from when they saved his ass in Far Madding? His 'plan' for the Cleansing was at least as harebrained as his plan to seal the Bore. He was just going to do it with Lan to guard them. Lan. Against all the Forsaken, whom Rand was trying to pretend did not exist since he didn't know what to do about them. The whole point of the expedition to Far Madding as far as Rand was concerned was to get rid of the renegades so he wouldn't have to worry about them sneaking up on him while he was trying to cleanse saidin.

 

I don't think he only wanted to use Lan, he prepared Callandor afterall IIRC, and he did have confirmation that he could trust a small number of channellers. Lan was only his backup for when he hunted down the renegades. Even Rand wouldn't have faced the Forsaken with a mere blademaster as protection while engaged in cleansing saidin. Atleast I hope he wouldn't be so stupid.

[MasterAblar]

I don't recall aes sedai ever deciding to work with Rand if they could help it

Aside from when they saved his ass in Far Madding? His 'plan' for the Cleansing was at least as harebrained as his plan to seal the Bore. He was just going to do it with Lan to guard them. Lan. Against all the Forsaken, whom Rand was trying to pretend did not exist since he didn't know what to do about them. The whole point of the expedition to Far Madding as far as Rand was concerned was to get rid of the renegades so he wouldn't have to worry about them sneaking up on him while he was trying to cleanse saidin.

 

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant the aes sedai as a whole not individual aes sedai like Cadsuane or Moiraine.

[Terez]

I don't recall aes sedai ever deciding to work with Rand if they could help it

Aside from when they saved his ass in Far Madding? His 'plan' for the Cleansing was at least as harebrained as his plan to seal the Bore. He was just going to do it with Lan to guard them. Lan. Against all the Forsaken, whom Rand was trying to pretend did not exist since he didn't know what to do about them. The whole point of the expedition to Far Madding as far as Rand was concerned was to get rid of the renegades so he wouldn't have to worry about them sneaking up on him while he was trying to cleanse saidin.

 

I don't think he only wanted to use Lan, he prepared Callandor afterall IIRC, and he did have confirmation that he could trust a small number of channellers.

But he didn't bring any of those channelers with him.

 

“I don’t know how long it will take, and once I start, I think everyone within a thousand miles of me who can channel will know something is happening. I doubt I’ll be able to just stop if Dashiva and the rest, or the Forsaken, suddenly appear to see what it is. The Forsaken, I can’t do anything about, but with luck, I can finish the others.” Maybe being ta’veren would give him the edge he needed so desperately.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I don't recall aes sedai ever deciding to work with Rand if they could help it

Aside from when they saved his ass in Far Madding? His 'plan' for the Cleansing was at least as harebrained as his plan to seal the Bore. He was just going to do it with Lan to guard them. Lan. Against all the Forsaken, whom Rand was trying to pretend did not exist since he didn't know what to do about them. The whole point of the expedition to Far Madding as far as Rand was concerned was to get rid of the renegades so he wouldn't have to worry about them sneaking up on him while he was trying to cleanse saidin.

 

I don't think he only wanted to use Lan, he prepared Callandor afterall IIRC, and he did have confirmation that he could trust a small number of channellers.

But he didn't bring any of those channelers with him.

 

“I don’t know how long it will take, and once I start, I think everyone within a thousand miles of me who can channel will know something is happening. I doubt I’ll be able to just stop if Dashiva and the rest, or the Forsaken, suddenly appear to see what it is. The Forsaken, I can’t do anything about, but with luck, I can finish the others.” Maybe being ta’veren would give him the edge he needed so desperately.

 

He didn't bring any of those channelers to Far Madding. Where he didn't think they would be of any use and besides he wanted to personally kill the renegades. He was attempting to reduce the danger posed to him during the cleansing. Nothing is said about him not planning on getting additional backup when he actually attempted the cleansing. He even says that he would be unable to stop if anyone came so he must have known that he needed someone to guard him from the Forsaken atleast. And with Travelling he could get those channelers after he finished in Far Madding.

 

To be honest Far Madding was a far more harebrained plan than the Cleansing.

[Terez]

He didn't bring any of those channelers to Far Madding. Where he didn't think they would be of any use and besides he wanted to personally kill the renegades. He was attempting to reduce the danger posed to him during the cleansing. Nothing is said about him not planning on getting additional backup when he actually attempted the cleansing.

Yet we see no evidence of him making any such plans. He gave no directions for any sort of defense at Shadar Logoth, and he was even annoyed when Cadsuane appropriated Callandor to that purpose without asking his permission. Without her ter'angreal and her organization, it would not have gone as well as it did (and Kumira and Hopwil still died).

 

To be honest Far Madding was a far more harebrained plan than the Cleansing.

Far more? I don't think so, though it was pretty harebrained.

[MasterAblar]

I don't recall aes sedai ever deciding to work with Rand if they could help it

Aside from when they saved his ass in Far Madding? His 'plan' for the Cleansing was at least as harebrained as his plan to seal the Bore. He was just going to do it with Lan to guard them. Lan. Against all the Forsaken, whom Rand was trying to pretend did not exist since he didn't know what to do about them. The whole point of the expedition to Far Madding as far as Rand was concerned was to get rid of the renegades so he wouldn't have to worry about them sneaking up on him while he was trying to cleanse saidin.

 

I don't think he only wanted to use Lan, he prepared Callandor afterall IIRC, and he did have confirmation that he could trust a small number of channellers. Lan was only his backup for when he hunted down the renegades. Even Rand wouldn't have faced the Forsaken with a mere blademaster as protection while engaged in cleansing saidin. Atleast I hope he wouldn't be so stupid.

 

Yeah it would seem incredibly stupid and Rand has not given me the impression of someone very stupid.

[Terez]

He only is in certain instances. He is actually very good at ignoring inconvenient truths.

[MasterAblar]

He didn't bring any of those channelers to Far Madding. Where he didn't think they would be of any use and besides he wanted to personally kill the renegades. He was attempting to reduce the danger posed to him during the cleansing. Nothing is said about him not planning on getting additional backup when he actually attempted the cleansing.

Yet we see no evidence of him making any such plans. He gave no directions for any sort of defense at Shadar Logoth, and he was even annoyed when Cadsuane appropriated Callandor to that purpose without asking his permission. Without her ter'angreal and her organization, it would not have gone as well as it did (and Kumira and Hopwil still died).

 

To be honest Far Madding was a far more harebrained plan than the Cleansing.

Far more? I don't think so, though it was pretty harebrained.

 

Well it is his sword, he probably does not want someone taking it without permission. As for not giving directions, well do you really think that would have worked with Cadsuane? He had his thing to do and she had hers.

[MasterAblar]

He only is in certain instances. He is actually very good at ignoring inconvenient truths.

 

Who isn't.

[b3arz3rg3r]

He didn't bring any of those channelers to Far Madding. Where he didn't think they would be of any use and besides he wanted to personally kill the renegades. He was attempting to reduce the danger posed to him during the cleansing. Nothing is said about him not planning on getting additional backup when he actually attempted the cleansing.

Yet we see no evidence of him making any such plans. He gave no directions for any sort of defense at Shadar Logoth, and he was even annoyed when Cadsuane appropriated Callandor to that purpose without asking his permission. Without her ter'angreal and her organization, it would not have gone as well as it did (and Kumira and Hopwil still died).

 

To be honest Far Madding was a far more harebrained plan than the Cleansing.

Far more? I don't think so, though it was pretty harebrained.

 

Him being annoyed about Callandor is probably just because it is his and not something which needs to be read much into. As for letting Cadsuane handle the defense, well it was more bending to the inevitable. He couldn't defend himself and he was in no position to give any commands in mid battle. The mere absense of him being shown planning the Cleansing doesn't mean that he had no plan at all. Rand can be arrogant and reckless especially when it comes to people who hurt his pride, but he's not completely suicidal. Of course he didn't expect Cadsuane and her posse and perhaps only their involvement allowed him to succeed in the end, but I refuse to believe that he's a complete idiot which he would have been to attempt it knowing that he would be unable to defend himself. And I guess that is what it comes down to it as far as I'm concerned.

[Mr Ares]

Well whether Rand has a fully fleshed plan or not is not certain. I would not say it is complete, not even by the end of ToM. But what matters here is what Egwene knows

And Egwene knows he doesn't have a plan because he as good as told her he didn't.

Why not go to the FoM like Darlin, wanting to discuss it, to understand why Rand wants to break the seals, instead of outright opposing him when she does not know if he knows something she does not?

She asked to discuss it. Rand turned her down.

 

If LPD's reasons for taking the course of action she did were wrong then she should not have taken it.

No, she should have taken it for different reasons. As for doing nothing meaning defeat, what does defeat mean? Does she believe doing nothing will result in an oppressive regime, or does she think it will result in the end of the world? If the former, non-action is bad, but action carries with it the possibility of universal death, and therefore there is good reason to oppose. There is still time. The Shadow can be overthrown later. It can't if LTT kills them all.

 

Not to mention the aes sedai might well try to take control of everything which Rand, though he has changed greatly doesn't seem ready to accept.

They can do that anyway. The Hall can oppose him anyway. All he did was turn a potential friend against his plan.

[randsc]

Rand didn't, "turn a potential friend against his plan." It is very obvious from the text that she is under ta'veren influence. She is doing exactly what the Pattern demands of her, in opposing Rand. Her failing is in not doing some planning of her own. That and the arrogance, the "don't turn your back on the Amyrlin Seat!" crap. If she's so concerned with station, how about "Don't yell at the prophecied savior of the World"?

 

That said, she still has the meeting at Merilor. If she comes around there, and doesn't continue to oppose the ONLY PLAN ON THE TABLE, then she will be one step up on Latra.

[Mr Ares]

Rand didn't, "turn a potential friend against his plan." It is very obvious from the text that she is under ta'veren influence.

Which part of what I said is inaccurate? Which part is invalidated by ta'veren influence? What you say is not in dispute, but how is it relevant? And there are no plans on the table. Not for saving the world.

[randsc]

Again, Rand didn't "turn a potential friend against his plan" as you stated that he did. Ta'veren do not have the ability to use the ta'veren influence to bend people to their will. Ta'veren are used by the Pattern to bend people to its will. If Egwene was required to act as she did by the needs of the Pattern (and she was, as is clear from the text) than she would have opposed Rand's plan even if he kissed her ring, called her Mother, and "submitted himself to the guidance of the Tower."

[Thanatos]

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

 

I don't get it. Why do they need the dragon for the prison to be opened completely?

 

 

same question i have been asking on dragonmount forums for years. why did the dark one gave the order not to kill rand and this is the answer i get.

I think it has possibly got something to do with him wanting to destroy the wheel of time, if the dragon turned to the shadow and became the DO's champion instead of the creator, then there would be no stopping him from doing what he wants, and the wheel would not "come again" to that point...

****I meant the DO's champion instead of the creator's champion

 

I was under the impression that as ta'veren, the whole point of being such is that The Pattern would not allow the Dragon to turn. I know Ishy says that he has in the past, but how can that be possible?? If the Creator's Champion turned to the Shadow, even with the corrective nature of the Wheel, how could the Light win.

 

I thought that ta'veren would prevent his turning, especially as you see how greatly Rand's ta'veren nature is affecting the world now.

[MasterAblar]

Well whether Rand has a fully fleshed plan or not is not certain. I would not say it is complete, not even by the end of ToM. But what matters here is what Egwene knows

And Egwene knows he doesn't have a plan because he as good as told her he didn't.

Why not go to the FoM like Darlin, wanting to discuss it, to understand why Rand wants to break the seals, instead of outright opposing him when she does not know if he knows something she does not?

She asked to discuss it. Rand turned her down.

 

If LPD's reasons for taking the course of action she did were wrong then she should not have taken it.

No, she should have taken it for different reasons. As for doing nothing meaning defeat, what does defeat mean? Does she believe doing nothing will result in an oppressive regime, or does she think it will result in the end of the world? If the former, non-action is bad, but action carries with it the possibility of universal death, and therefore there is good reason to oppose. There is still time. The Shadow can be overthrown later. It can't if LTT kills them all.

 

Not to mention the aes sedai might well try to take control of everything which Rand, though he has changed greatly doesn't seem ready to accept.

They can do that anyway. The Hall can oppose him anyway. All he did was turn a potential friend against his plan.

 

The fact that he tells her that he means to look for answers means that he isn't planning on doing this without a plan. Furthermore not once does Egwene mention to Elayne, Nynaeve, the Wise Ones or anybody she tries to convince to oppose him, that he does not have a plan for resealing the bore, which is sort of the reason why she opposes him in the first place according to you. What she does constantly say is that she believes that breaking the seals is madness. She even says that he should be able to reseal the DO without breaking the seals. How can she say that he should be able implement his plan to reseal the DO and yet believe that he has absolutely no plan? I think that going from, Rand telling her that he doesn't have the answers yet (right after telling her a part of his plan: the use of saidin and saidar together) and to meet him again in 30 days to Egwene believing that he means to break the seals and go ahead with absolutely no plan, is sort of a log shot personally.

 

He said he would not discuss it right then and told her to meet him at the FoM. Her immediate opposition is understandable but with what others (especially Nynaeve) have told her after of Rand, she should be able to think back and wonder if he did not hold something back and if he does not know something she does not. I definitely don't think she should support him without further information but the reverse is also true. Rand told her to meet with him at the FoM to talk, so its not as if she should think that he does not even mean to talk to her. Of course we know that from Rand's last POV that nothing they say will matter, but Egwene hardly knows that.

 

Right, LPD's course of action was the right one but not for the reasons she gave, so therefore with what she did know she should not have taken the course of action she did. I'm not saying it's not a good thing she did take this course of action, only that her decision to take it based on what she knew was wrong.

Defeat means the victory of the shadow which is something unacceptable no matter how you look at it. If LTT does not place the seals correctly, then the DO is released completely and the light has lost. If they do nothing then the shadow quickly overruns their defenses ending all resistance, which means the release of the DO with time and complete defeat for the forces of the light. One course of action has a chance of success, the other does not. Even if the DO's release only meant an oppressive regime (and I doubt this one would allow any chance for resistance), and LPD was ready to accept that, I don't see why it would be any different if LTT gave his plan a shot. At least now they have the ability to implement a plan. There is no such certainties once the shadow conquers all.

 

They can hardly control him if he shares nothing with them until it is absolutely necessary. Besides they have no reason to trust him in the first place, they think him insane. Why waste time on a very likely futile cause if he can just have them do the exactly what he wants without running the risk of the aes sedai trying to interfere with (which they surely will based on what has previously happened)?

[b3arz3rg3r]

Again, Rand didn't "turn a potential friend against his plan" as you stated that he did. Ta'veren do not have the ability to use the ta'veren influence to bend people to their will. Ta'veren are used by the Pattern to bend people to its will. If Egwene was required to act as she did by the needs of the Pattern (and she was, as is clear from the text) than she would have opposed Rand's plan even if he kissed her ring, called her Mother, and "submitted himself to the guidance of the Tower."

 

Whether ta'veren can consciously use the ta'veren effect is somewhat murky. We have evidence that they can do it on occasion with both Rand and Mat, but not always. Rand is obviously using Egwene, he wants her to gather all opposition for some reason. So if anything Egwene is doing as he wishes.

 

Well, and it's not as if she could stop him. She's well aware of that fact which is why she wants to "make him see reason".

 

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

 

I don't get it. Why do they need the dragon for the prison to be opened completely?

 

 

same question i have been asking on dragonmount forums for years. why did the dark one gave the order not to kill rand and this is the answer i get.

I think it has possibly got something to do with him wanting to destroy the wheel of time, if the dragon turned to the shadow and became the DO's champion instead of the creator, then there would be no stopping him from doing what he wants, and the wheel would not "come again" to that point...

****I meant the DO's champion instead of the creator's champion

 

I was under the impression that as ta'veren, the whole point of being such is that The Pattern would not allow the Dragon to turn. I know Ishy says that he has in the past, but how can that be possible?? If the Creator's Champion turned to the Shadow, even with the corrective nature of the Wheel, how could the Light win.

 

I thought that ta'veren would prevent his turning, especially as you see how greatly Rand's ta'veren nature is affecting the world now.

 

Ishamael is and was hardly sane. He may say that Dragons have turned in the past, but there's no evidence. And how could there be? The concept of the wheel of time is that ages can only repeat themselves after they have long since been forgotten. Besides when he said that he was trying to manipulate Rand.

[Muad Cheade]

Rand doesn't have a plan. Yes, he has decided to break the seals. What then? He says he thinks both saidar and saidin must bemused together but in what way? If he repeats what LTT did he risks either tearing the prison completely open or tainting both halves of the Power.

 

Egwene is right. Breaking the seals without knowing how to keep the Dark One contained or even knowing how to make the seals is madness.

[MasterAblar]

Rand doesn't have a plan. Yes, he has decided to break the seals. What then? He says he thinks both saidar and saidin must bemused together but in what way? If he repeats what LTT did he risks either tearing the prison completely open or tainting both halves of the Power.

 

Egwene is right. Breaking the seals without knowing how to keep the Dark One contained or even knowing how to make the seals is madness.

 

Yes, she would be right, but nothing suggests that she is aware of his lack of a plan. That is not why she opposes him. He also told her he remembered LTT's life, so it's likely that he does know how to make the seals even if he can't do it the same way again. If he was going to do this without a plan, what would be the point of asking Min to search for the element he is missing? What would be the point of waiting 30 days? I'd also point out that we have been given exactly one POV from Rand in the entire book. I think it's hard to claim what he means to do, and how developed his plan is.

[RedRaider]

More significantly, Rand's plan consists of "break the seals and see what happens." One can understand and sympathize with leeriness of this plan--at the very least it would be a good idea to have some sort of plan for what happens after the seals are broken. If Rand had such a plan, I doubt Egwene would be opposed to his impulses. But he doesn't. It does not seem that breaking the seals needs to happen immediately (the Dark One is not about to break free tomorrow), just relatively soon, so taking time to plan things out seems like the wise decision, not the foolish one.

I don't really think this is foolish at all. We've read Aes Sedai saying that if the DO were free the world would end and that just isn't true. RJ stated that not everything they know to be true is correct.

The DO had to be free for a time when the bore was originally drilled. He was free to do whatever he does while LT came up with a plan, argued that plan, got no help (from female channelers), and then did things on his own. The world didn't end. Egewene is still operating on the everything I know is correct and no matter what Rand says or does premise, this will not change. It hasn't for the entire series, why now?

 

EDIT: Our AoL friends didn't have a plan when they went looking for a power source and found the DO either and everything has worked out thus far.

[Suttree]

but wait a second. According to many people here, shaitan and his order not to kill rand is because they need him to break open the great lord's prison. Right? If that's the case then how could the dark one win anything in AOL, considering LTT never considered switching allegiences?

 

yes, the bad guys would overrun everything but it would have never led to a total shadow victory since their master is still locked up

 

I don't get it. Why do they need the dragon for the prison to be opened completely?

 

 

same question i have been asking on dragonmount forums for years. why did the dark one gave the order not to kill rand and this is the answer i get.

I think it has possibly got something to do with him wanting to destroy the wheel of time, if the dragon turned to the shadow and became the DO's champion instead of the creator, then there would be no stopping him from doing what he wants, and the wheel would not "come again" to that point...

****I meant the DO's champion instead of the creator's champion

 

I was under the impression that as ta'veren, the whole point of being such is that The Pattern would not allow the Dragon to turn. I know Ishy says that he has in the past, but how can that be possible?? If the Creator's Champion turned to the Shadow, even with the corrective nature of the Wheel, how could the Light win.

 

I thought that ta'veren would prevent his turning, especially as you see how greatly Rand's ta'veren nature is affecting the world now.

 

The way it's been explained to me is the CoL has been turned in the past, just never the Dragon soul.

[Pygmalion79]

The way it's been explained to me is the CoL has been turned in the past, just never the Dragon soul.

I thought it was the Dragon who had turned, but never the CoL....but I may have gotten this backwards.

[Suttree]

The way it's been explained to me is the CoL has been turned in the past, just never the Dragon soul.

I thought it was the Dragon who had turned, but never the CoL....but I may have gotten this backwards.

 

Here are two quotes on it..

 

tarvalon.net Q&A 26 February 2003

Q: Was Ishamael lying when he told Rand that the hero of the Light had turned to Shadow in other lifetimes?

RJ: No, he was not. Even those who lie sometimes tell the truth when it serves their purposes.

 

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 16 January 2003, Dayton, OH - Tim Kington reporting

 

Q: (inaudible)

RJ: Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.

[Pygmalion79]

The way it's been explained to me is the CoL has been turned in the past, just never the Dragon soul.

I thought it was the Dragon who had turned, but never the CoL....but I may have gotten this backwards.

 

Here are two quotes on it..

Thanks. Crossed wires obviously.

[dwn]

It's pretty clear that Rand intended to antagonize Egwene--either by ta'veren-fu or by pushing her buttons--and that he intended her to gather forces to oppose him. So... why? The obvious answer is that he wanted someone to finish marshalling the Light's armies in preparation for the fallout of breaking the seals. Yet, I think it might go further than that.

 

"I cannot afford to let him provoke me. Bashere is right. Nor can I afford to let the men assume that I will always be able to step in and save them."

 

"I am not to fight this war, Bashere."

 

-- ToM, A Storm of Light, p. 507

 

This may be Rand's way of forcing someone else--Egwene-- to step up as the leader/administrator of the physical war against the Shadow, leaving Rand free to deal with the esoteric side of the fight. This is much like how Egwene ceded control of her army to the Hall so she could focus on Rand. The Amyrlin is likely the only one, beside the Dragon, who everyone could accept in such a role.

 

-- dwn