Rand al'Thors, Adoptive Mother was a Dark Friend

[CrazyMike]

Kari al'Thor ,,, Rand al'Thors Adotive Mother was a Darkfriend,,, she was ordered to kill him and she refused and for that reason the Evil One had her killed, but he kept her soul until Rand freed her by severing the Connection between her soul and the Evil One (The Eye of the World, chapter 51 near the end of the Chapter) She confessed her dabbling with evil in her weakness and being caught by it.

[Luckers]

My thought was that that took place after death... her being lured into evil.

 

And since when was the Dark One ever called the Evil One?

[Angel of Death]

I like the idea, and Luckers, it think its a mistake or he momenterlly forgot his name.

[CrazyMike]

Yeah , Dark One, Evil One, I always think of the DARK ONE as being the personafication of Evil in the series, and apparently everyone knows what I mean, so nitpicking over words is realy a lame way to try and argue any point, and Trollics or Trolics is the same , I don't intend to apologize for mispelled words and again Nitpicking over the difference is lame since it doesn't address the point at all and merely demonstrates the mental weakness of the person trying to make the trivial an important issue.

 

as to Dark friends

 

In reading the WoT series in appears to me that As a Rule Newly Converted Dark Friends usually assist in the Murders of their family's and friends even feeding their own Children and Sisters to Trolics and watching while they are eaten to prove they are worthy and to gain foavor with the Dark One,,, example: JAICHIM CARRIDIN The Dark Friend head of the Questioners in the Children of Light, helped Trollics kill his sisters; check it out in TPoD and ACoS, I forget where exactly he remembers the death of his sisters;;;

 

and

 

ARAM the Tinker become Swordsman , and would be assasin of Perrin , could have easily been a Dark Friend; the fact that his family and friends were slaughtered by Trollics ect. works well with the METHOD of OPERATION used by the Evil One,,,

 

there are other places in the series where it is remarked upon about the price Dark Friends pay to gain favor with the Evil One ...

[Luckers]

Again, Jaichim did not aid his family in killing his sisters, they were killed as a very specific punishment of him. In point of fact we have never seen it said that darkfriends have had to kill family members to prove their loyalty. Kadere killed his sister when she discovered his secret, thats the closest your going to get.

 

And you suggest that other people need to re-read the series, you can't even read peoples posts.

 

Aram was not a darkfriend. Masema is not a darkfriend.

[RobertAlexWillis]

<sigh>

[KaptainKaos]

Wait, the Insanity continues!!!???!?

 

Crazy Mike you know if you put everything down in two different topics it doesn't add anymore weight to your argument. Check out the other topic where you said this same stuff to see my response and seriously read it. Wait.. I can copy and paste too maybe it will equal in weight with your argument Crazy Mike since it is on two different topics too.

Ha, and I really am laughing at Robert's one word response in this topic too, how appropriate. Anyway here it is:

 

I am really rolling on the floor and laughing... mostly because Robert's one word response is hilarious but also because of the interplay between Crazy Mike's 'revelation' and Luckers response to that (I am truly disturbed by Crazy Mike's fanatical personality, it's so ironic because he is actually a lot like a Whitecloak from the books, ha). I am really starting to enjoy these topics from Crazy Mike even though in the beginning I didn't believe that the topic statements deserved a response and I wish I could get a moderator to rename them "Wheel of Time books and how the clinically insane interpret them" but I know they won't. I'm not even sure how to respond any further but I will try without too many more burns.

 

First of Mr. Mike you have to remember that the information about Rand's mother was given to Rand not necessarily by his mother but by Ishamael who is one of the top followers of your 'Evil One' and if you haven't figured it out yet you can't take everything in this series at face value especially when it comes from this 'Evil One' or his followers because they're evil really super evil.

 

The other thing that needs to be remembered is that Jaichim Carridin definitely does not want these family members that are dying to be dying and he is not helping to kill them unless you think he is failing on purpose so that the Fade will kill his family which is definitely another topic that should be put up on the Wheel of Time for the Clinicly Insane thread.

 

My point is this obviously some things have been a little over your (meaning Crazy Mike's) head in this or maybe you are just acting a little to high and mighty to come down here with us and see what is actually happening in the books. In either case all that you need to do is ask, just stop trying to fill in the gaps of your knowledge with what you think is the case because obviously you can't rely on your own line of thought really it's more like a lets see if anyone else besides the clinically insane can connect the dots than a line but you understand (probably not but I am just tired of wasting my time on this topic and a little regretful that I didn't just do a one word response and be funny like Robert.)

 

Ha, the ending is also true in this topic too, this is all working out so nicely.

[moroten]

ARAM the Tinker become Swordsman , and would be assasin of Perrin , could have easily been a Dark Friend; the fact that his family and friends were slaughtered by Trollics ect. works well with the METHOD of OPERATION used by the Evil One,,,

 

 

So what you are saying is the following:

The Dark one/Evil one ordered a bunch of trollocs to attack the tinkers so he could turn Aram into a darkfriend. Now why would the drak one even want a tinker as a drak friend, they fight should they curse at their enemies?

 

And lets say that he knew aram would pick up the sword(and if the dark one seriously was this almighty being able to percieve things before happening the world be in a lot more trouble than it is). Your points is the dark one knew Aram would meet perrin and wanted him as a tool to later kill Perrin. Now why on earth even wait that long to finish Perrin off? He wanted to cast the blame on masema?

 

Funny I never saw the dark one as shy of his achievments.

[Luckers]

KaptienKaos. Remember when i told you to be nice in your comments? I totally withdraw that. Go to town if you so chose. :)

[CrazyMike]

Ok, Kaptain Krunch and Lugies, I mean Kaptain Kaos and Luckers, I will straighten your thinking out a little, but I would like to see some reply's from some adults here, it is hard to debate with 7th graders and 12 year olds, at least that seems to be the mentality of those responding with one exception so far.

I never said the Dark One killed Aram's family inorder to convert him to the Darkside ; no , again a pitiful example of childish misinterpitation of facts and statements made by others; you guys should grow up; insults do not win arguements and your insults merely demonstrate that you are both pinheads with very little mental capability and please do not misinterpit when I said little I was not refering to your manhood even if it is true.

I said I believe that ARAM was a Dark Friend before or soon after he 1st met Egwen al'Vere and long before his family were murdered and eaten by Trollics.

I said the Dark One or his Leutenants Demanded a Sacrifice from ARAM , a payment, to prove himself a devoted follower of the Dark One and worthy of his favor.

As to Jaicim he did agree and offer his sisters as sacrifice to the Dark One.

and

Luckers, the 1st response you made was untainted by mindless preadolecent venom and in respect to that I will respond seperately

[Guest Majsju]

I said the Dark One or his Leutenants Demanded a Sacrifice from ARAM , a payment, to prove himself a devoted follower of the Dark One and worthy of his favor.

 

Ok, just how do you reach the conclusion that a tinker caravan that gets attacked by trollocs because the caravan happens to be in an area where the trollocs are launching a small scale war would constitue a sacrifice by Aram? What was the sacrifice, that he stayed long enough to see his parents get killed?

 

As to Jaicim he did agree and offer his sisters as sacrifice to the Dark One.

 

Offer his sister, yes. As a sacrifice? Not quite. "Take her not me" is not exactly the kind of sacrifice that shows a burning loyalty, it only shows a man who is willing to do anything to survive.

[CrazyMike]

No, Rands Mothers conversion to the Dark One or Capture by the Dark One could not have taken place after Death for the following reasons:

(1) If she had not been converted to the Darkside before she died then her Soul would be safe in the light and the Dark One could not have touched her.

(2) The Dark One could not have power over anyone's Soul unless they have converted to being Dark Friends before they Died; if he could then there is no safety in the Light and resistance is futil and the whole WoT series is a waste of time, because the Dark One is only Toying with everyone and already owns them to do with as he pleases (I hope the differrence between Soul and Body is understood)

(3) If the Dark One is able to snare someone's Soul; that DID NOT become a Darkfriend; after they have Died then that imply's that the Dark One is more Powerful than the Light and the Creator, and maybe is the Creator himself.

(4) In the same way, the Dark One can not take the Soul of one of his Evil Followers , lets say LANFEAR and place it in the Body of someone who is not a follower of the Dark One (another darkfriend) because that also implys that the dark One is Omnipotent and more powerful than the LIGHT and The Creator or that the Dark One is the Creator himself.

 

: and in further consideration I would Point out that it realy was Rands Adoptive Mother's Souls that was being shown to Rand in TEotW Chapter 51 , being tortured by Trollics: Please notice That:

(1) she explained how she came to be in that circumstance, and

(2) She begged Rand to help her, to free her, and

(3) She Thanked Rand and praised the Light when she was Freed by Rand, this being the final proof, because if she were only a figment and delusional Apperation manifested by the Dark One's Power to help overwhelm Rand and get him to surrender she would not have Thanked Rand for freeing her and she would not have Praised the Light

[racha_giurgiu]

I liked it better when CrazyMike was missing for a couple of days. Who let him out of his nice, safe padded room?

[edman]

the Dark One is the Creator himself

 

I've begun to believe that that is entirely possible.

[Guest cwestervelt]

In case people have forgotten, Rand's dream of his mother was being manipulated and induced by Ishamael. You can't even be certain that it was Kari al'Thor and not just a construct. Trying to draw any conclusions about her allegience based on that dream is simply absurd.

 

That said, I agree wholeheartedly with RAW.

 

<sigh>

 

Edit: I just skimmed the section and a construct doesn't really seem to fit well in the context. However... Ba'alzamon and the Dark One are not the same entity so there was definitely some twisting of the truth going on.

 

Addition: Dream is also a bad word choice there. Vision is probably better.

[moroten]

The dead belong to the dark one. Few can escpae him in life, no one can escape in death.

 

Kari althor was some already said, probably a vision to make Rand unbalanced in a crucial battle.

 

Where in the tinker world would Aram been faced with even a choice of becomming a dark friend. He has been living a life without the touble of the dark side, why on earth could he possibly make a decision that doesnt make sense in his case. He has nothing to complain about. Maybe he did out of boredom.

 

So lets say he was really bored and wanted ot be free of the caravn, so he turned himself to the dark one?

[Guest cwestervelt]

I will admit I suspected Aram of being a Darkfriend for a while, but it was more for the lack of a better candidate than any other reason.

 

Tinker Darkfriends do exists. If you doubt it, read the prologue to The Great Hunt. Bors notes the presense of one during the unholy conclave. For a long time I suspected that was Aram because of how un-Tinkerish he behaved around Perrin when the first met. Then to have him latch on seemed like he was following orders. Doesn't fit with how is ultimate demise occurred though.

[Guest Majsju]

No, Rands Mothers conversion to the Dark One or Capture by the Dark One could not have taken place after Death for the following reasons:

(1) If she had not been converted to the Darkside before she died then her Soul would be safe in the light and the Dark One could not have touched her.

(2) The Dark One could not have power over anyone's Soul unless they have converted to being Dark Friends before they Died; if he could then there is no safety in the Light and resistance is futil and the whole WoT series is a waste of time, because the Dark One is only Toying with everyone and already owns them to do with as he pleases (I hope the differrence between Soul and Body is understood)

(3) If the Dark One is able to snare someone's Soul; that DID NOT become a Darkfriend; after they have Died then that imply's that the Dark One is more Powerful than the Light and the Creator, and maybe is the Creator himself.

(4) In the same way, the Dark One can not take the Soul of one of his Evil Followers , lets say LANFEAR and place it in the Body of someone who is not a follower of the Dark One (another darkfriend) because that also implys that the dark One is Omnipotent and more powerful than the LIGHT and The Creator or that the Dark One is the Creator himself.

 

Care to provide a source for these claims?

[CrazyMike]

MAJSJU

Care to provide a source for these claims?

 

Logic and Reason are my source and proof :D

 

unless of course the Dark One realy is the Creator and Source of all Light, then all bets are off 8) Elvis has left the Building

[CrazyMike]

EDMAN

 

I did not say that the Dark One is the Creator, you took me out of Context ,

shame shame ,

what I said was all things considered if the Dark One has power over the Souls of men in life and in death , whether or not they are the dark Ones deciples or followers, then he is more powerful than the Creator and must be the Creator.

If that is true then the series is a pointless exercise in futility and comic tradgedy

by the way Edman, ouch man , if you already believe that then things must be going bad ; here's to better days :lol:

[Guest Majsju]

Logic and Reason are my source and proof

 

Logic and reason usually works better if there are any actual facts to back them up.

 

You are making assumptions designed to support a theory that doesn't have any support in the facts provided by the author.

 

Once in a blue moon such a theory can prove to be right. Not this time though.

 

The KariIsADF-theory gets knocked out in the first round. :D

[CrazyMike]

Majsju

The KariIsADF-theory gets knocked out in the first round.

 

Hhhmmm , please provide proof your ownself that the theory is wrong;

Did Robert Jordan say it was wrong, please quote him here if so; or

Where, in the WoT series, is/are the proof and facts written denying the Claim I stated in the Orriginal Post

[Luckers]

I must admit I've come to admire Mike. This much confidence in the face of universal disagreement is... impressive.

 

The Dead do not belong to the Dark One. However, he does have the power to influence the dead after death, meaning Kari very easily could have converted following death. Its not stasis... we know from witnessing the dead and their actions in CoT and KoD that the dead are not merely waiting around in a giant vending machine. And we know from the same thing that the Dark One can bring about manifestations of the dead without rebirthing them.

 

Then there are Kari's own comments: "The Lord of the Grave is stronger then he once was... ...The Father of Lies has a honeyed tongue for unwary souls" [tEotW: Against the Shadow: 761: emphasis mine]

 

Together they paint a relatively clear picture.

[MetalMonkeyMood]

(1) If she had not been converted to the Darkside before she died then her Soul would be safe in the light and the Dark One could not have touched her.

 

There is nothing to prove that Kari was a DF before she died' date=' and certainly nothing to prove that she tried to kill Rand. The one quote from Kari, which Luckers already stated, sounds like she was actually tricked after she died and as a soul, and that's even if you believe Ishamael.

 

(2) The Dark One could not have power over anyone's Soul unless they have converted to being Dark Friends before they Died; if he could then there is no safety in the Light and resistance is futil and the whole WoT series is a waste of time, because the Dark One is only Toying with everyone and already owns them to do with as he pleases (I hope the differrence between Soul and Body is understood)

(3) If the Dark One is able to snare someone's Soul; that DID NOT become a Darkfriend; after they have Died then that imply's that the Dark One is more Powerful than the Light and the Creator, and maybe is the Creator himself.

 

We know for a fact the the DO does regularly use innocent people's souls, for example in his construction of the swords created by the forgers which can even use the souls of children in their forging. As for him influencing souls of the dead, his title as Lord of the Grave kind of gives that away. If he could have only captured DF souls he would have been called "Lord of the Grave for Bad People" or something. Not as impressive, but meh.

And remember, he doesn't control them, he can influence them and trick them. "The Father of Lies has a honeyed tongue for unwary souls."

 

(4) In the same way' date=' the Dark One can not take the Soul of one of his Evil Followers , lets say LANFEAR and place it in the Body of someone who is not a follower of the Dark One [u'](another darkfriend)[/u] because that also implys that the dark One is Omnipotent and more powerful than the LIGHT and The Creator or that the Dark One is the Creator himself.

 

There has been nothing to say that the people who now house forsaken souls (Cyndane, Moridin, 'Gars) were DF before they were "possessed" by the forsaken souls. In fact, it appears that the DO takes whatever healthy, suitable body he could find close by for his uses. Where does it say anywhere that the "shell" has to have once housed a DF?

 

: and in further consideration I would Point out that it realy was Rands Adoptive Mother's Souls that was being shown to Rand in TEotW Chapter 51 ' date=' being tortured by Trollics: Please notice That:

(1) she explained how she came to be in that circumstance, and

(2) She begged Rand to help her, to free her, and

(3) She Thanked Rand and praised the Light when she was Freed by Rand, this being the final proof, because if she were only a figment and delusional Apperation manifested by the Dark One's Power to help overwhelm Rand and get him to surrender she would not have Thanked Rand for freeing her and she would not have Praised the Light.

[/quote']

 

Perhaps she is, perhaps she isn't, but in order for Ishamael's deception to succeed (if it was a deception), Kari would have had to act that way for Rand to believe it. If she started cursing him and calling out to the DF, Rand would not have believed Ishamael for a single second.

 

Crazy Mike, you made the original statement that Kari is a DF, and so the burden of proof is on you to prove that statement, not on other people to refute it. Nothing you have said so far constitutes proof in any way.

[General Tam]

Crazy mike Wrote:

4) In the same way, the Dark One can not take the Soul of one of his Evil Followers , lets say LANFEAR and place it in the Body of someone who is not a follower of the Dark One (another darkfriend) because that also implys that the dark One is Omnipotent and more powerful than the LIGHT and The Creator or that the Dark One is the Creator himself.

 

The dark one can put one of his followers into a body of someone not a darkfriend. on page 70 in Lord of Chaos when Aran'gar asks why she is in such a normal body shaidar haran says "you where both givin the best that could be taken in the borderlands." 8)

 

and it is trollocs :lol: