is Taim Moridin?

[herid]

Is Taim Moridin in disguise? This is discussed in many threads but I thought I'd try to combine the pro and con arguments I saw in various places. What do you all think?

 

Update: I put a lot of arguments from this and similar threads into a separate blog post.

 

Pro

1. Bashere is doubtful that he is really Taim when Taim first shows up in LoC.
   
2. Taim is extremely strong in the power.

   
   For a moment Taim only looked at him, expressionless; then the Power flooded into him. There was no glow such as women could see around one another, only a sense of force and menace, but Rand could feel it clearly, and judge it. Taim held enough of saidin to devastate the farm and everyone there in seconds, enough to lay waste as far as he could see. It was not much short of what Rand himself could manage, unaided. But then, the man could be holding back. There was no sense of strain and he might not want to show his full strength to Rand; how could he know how Rand might react?
   

   Logain can tell when Rand holds as much as he can handle after the attack on Algrin's manor in KoD so presumably Rand should be able to do the same with Taim.

   
   "A Deathgate," Logain said, his voice tinged with distaste. "Why are you still holding the Power?'- he asked suddenly. "And so much.
    
   If you're trying to show me that you're stronger than I am, I already know it. I saw how large your . . . your Deathgates were compared to mine. And I'd say you're holding every drop of saidin that you can safely."
    
   

3. Taim knows how to test for channeling ability (LOC, Ch3). How could he possibly know that?
   
4. Moridin and Taim are similar in height and physical appearance.
   
5. Taim stands above Osan'gar / Aginor in BT.
   
6. Taim likes red and black just as Moridin does.

   
   The floor tiles were red and black here, too. Taim must particularly like those colors.
    
   -KoD, Ch 38:
   

   I think there are more examples of this elsewhere.
   

7. 
   "And you see," Taim said, walking with one hand folded—fingers making a fist—behind his back.
    
   -TOM Ch 53
   

   Moridin is known to do that with his left hand since Rand lost his left hand while capturing Semirhage.
   
8. Taim uses the same sigil as Bel'al and Sammael

   
   Broad stone stairs rose to a wide landing in front of tall twinned doors. Each bore a gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts, carved large and gilded.
    
   - Knife of Dreams, Epilogue
    
   Nynaeve saw the sigil painted [on the carriage door]. A silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts. She supposed it was High Lord Samon's [be’lal’s] sign...
    
   - The Dragon Reborn, Bait For the Net
    
   His [sammael's] chair was heavy wood, carved with...a steel-gauntleted fist clasping lightning at the back's peak.
    
   - Fires of Heaven, A Silver Arrow
   

9. 
   He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warder’s deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light.
    
   -WH, prologue
   

   So far as we know Taim hasn't bonded anybody. So the theory is that warder's grace is coming through via Rand-Moridin link. Furthermore, the remark about shadows following him might be a subtle indication of a person who's been using TP.
    
   
10. Uses some phrases particular to Forsaken. Specifically, only Taim and the Forsaken refer to the Aiel as "so-called Aiel".

    
    And who can know what these so-called Aiel will do.
     
    -LoC, Ch 11
    

11. LT raves about killing him from the very beginning. He does so about other Asha'man but not nearly so much. I don't think he ever raved about Logain for example.
    
12. None of the Forsaken ever mention him, think about him or are seen speaking to him. This is pretty strange given his very important position.
    

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cons

1. Triple orders to Black Asha'man to kill Rand

   
    
   “Kill him,” the M’Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. Far Madding was to be their last chance; he had made that as plain as polished brass. Dashiva had simply vanished. Kisman did not know whether he had run or the M’Hael had killed him, and he did not care.
    
   “Kill him,” Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M’Hael, as if he did not know of Taim’s order.
    
   And later still, Moridin had said, “Kill him if you must, but above all, bring everything in his possession to me. That will redeem your previous transgressions.” The man said he was one of the Chosen, and no one was mad enough to make that claim unless it was true, yet he seemed to think al’Thor’s belongings more important than his death, the killing incidental and not really necessary.
    
   -WH, Ch22
    
   

   To me, this one is the hardest to explain. If Taim is Moridin why would he double up on the orders like that and phrase them so differently?
   
2. Rand sees Moridin's face when channeling and Moridin knows about it. If he happens to see Taim's face (which he never does btw), Taim's cover is blown.
   
3. It seems that Moridin channels TP exclusively. We never see him use OP and there is this observation of Demandred
    

   
   Demandred flinched in spite of himself. That had been the True Power; he had felt nothing. A black speck floated across Moridin’s blue eyes, then another, in a steady stream. The man must have been using the True Power exclusively since he last saw him to gain so many saa so quickly.
    
   WH,CH 13
   

   Taim, by the nature of his position would have to channel saidin on regular basis. Furthermore, according to Lucker's theory on Rand's channelling sickness, it's occurs when either he or Moridin channel saidin and might be one of the reasons why Moridin sticks to TP now.
   http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/50914-who-is-the-third-man-rand-and-moridins-link/
   
4. Taim is willing to get very close to other people and Rand in particular when he attempts to heal him at Dumai Wells. If he is using MoM disguise that runs a pretty high risk of detection.
   And in the very first scene he appears he is poked with swords, and that in Rand's presence.
    

   
   His dark blue coat had been of fine wool trimmed in darker velvet, but wear had made the cuffs ragged, his breeches bagged at the knee, and dust coated his cracked boots. Still, he walked proudly, no mean feat with four more of Bashere’s men behind him, those almost straight, slightly serpentine blades bare and the points inches from his ribs.
    
   -LoC, Ch2
   

    
   
5. Apart from Osan'gar who is now gone, Demandred seems to be involved in BT affairs too. Take the above orders to Asha'man to kill Rand. Also, there is this remark of Sammael
    

   
   “I didn’t arrange his kidnapping.” Sammael gave her what he probably thought was a wry look; his scar made it more a snarl. “Mesaana had a hand in it, though. Maybe Demandred and Semirhage as well, despite how it ended, but Mesaana certainly.
    
   -CoS, Ch 20
   

   Rand's kidnapping ended with Asha'man rescuing him.
   There is an obvious implication here that Demandred is involved with Asha'man (perhaps he is even controlling them) and had a hand in Rand's kidnapping despite the fact that Asha'man were the main force behind Rand's rescue. None of this would fit very well with Taim being Moridin.
    
   
6. Moridin has a lot to do as Moridin. He is apparently marshaling the DO forces in the Blight. This is no small task. Taim has quite a bit to do too. Hard to see how one person could manage all that.
   Graendal comments on this

   
   Moridin was gathering the Great Lord's forces for the Last Battle, and his war preparations left him very little time for the south—though his two minions, Cyndane and Moghedien, occasionally showed their faces there.
   -tGS, Prologue
   

   This is not stated as an opinion so it would be difficult to argue that Graendal is mistaken about this.
    
   
7. Moridin and Taim seem to have somewhat different personalities. Moridin is cold. Taim is fiery.
   
8. I've seen a post by Terez (I would be grateful for the exact quote) that someone asked BS if Moridin is gay. His immediate reaction was that he was not sure. I don't know about Moridin but Taim is not gay. He ogles Elayne

   
   “That is for her to tell you if she wishes,” Nadere said complacently. “You are sharp to see it; many do not.” Her large bosom heaved in a grunt that might have been a laugh. “Those men, turning their backs, and those women, guarding you. I would have put a stop to it if the man in the embroidered coat had not kept looking over his shoulder to admire your hips. And if your blushes had not said you knew.”
    
   -WH, prologue
    
   

    
    
   Presumably, BS should have known about this. Of course, he could have simply forgotten. He didn't write this scene and I don't think the subject is breached anywhere else in the books.
   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On balance, I'm inclined to think that Taim is NOT Moridin but is just Moridin's minion (who might ot be the same as the original Mazrim Taim). That could explain most pro arguments. Some of the con arguments I haven't seen reasonably explained.

[Mastro80]

I voted that they are the same person. My main reasoning is just the presence of black and red with both men. They both reside in Black Towers. I don't have any quotes or other reasoning to back it up; just a hunch.

[Feral]

There has also been the odd time when Taim's sounded half mad to me, as evidence towards the two being the same man. But personally I don't believe they are. Taim just doesn't seem badass enough to me and I can't imagine Moridin putting himself in such a position. But they are so similar in some ways, I think Taim must have spent a fair bit of time with Moridin.

[capuga]

Good summary of the various arguments. Taim is not Moridin. I have argued this extensively in other threads so I would prefer not to have to rehash everything, but it would take an awful lot of things explained away for Taim to be Moridin. The "con" evidence is just too overwhelming. There is no reasonable away to explain all the arguments against it. On the other hand, all it takes is one reasonable assumption (Taim was a student of a Forsaken, likely Ishy) to explain away the "pro" arguments. This theory has always seemed so unlikely to me that I am continually surprised at how much support it gets.

[jemron]

Why can't people just accept that Taim is Demandred's "proxy" in the BT? Is that so hard to accept?

[Ashandarei]

While I realize RJ has clearly debunked the Taimandred theory, there are way too many similarities reasons that they should be the same for me to believe that Taim is not Demandred until Demandred actual reveals himself in AMoL. In fact, RJ shouldn't have provided so much evidence linking the two if they are in fact different people. He sets it up perfectly for that to work and then comes out and denies the theory- ticks me off.

 

 

Why can't people just accept that Taim is Demandred's "proxy" in the BT? Is that so hard to accept?

 

He very well may be, I just find it hard to accept because I can't see the Forsaken giving any minion that much power. I mean, think about it, Taim is the face of the BT! He could easily gain enough loyalty, and IMO has, to send his Ashaman against other Forsaken, including Demandred if he feels it necessary.

[jemron]

 

Why can't people just accept that Taim is Demandred's "proxy" in the BT? Is that so hard to accept?

 

He very well may be, I just find it hard to accept because I can't see the Forsaken giving any minion that much power. I mean, think about it, Taim is the face of the BT! He could easily gain enough loyalty, and IMO has, to send his Ashaman against other Forsaken, including Demandred if he feels it necessary.

 

Who says Taim has any control over his actions? I mean, I think of "proxy" as "brainwashed goon" like the way Graendal uses people, only slightly different (keeps the personality somehow intact).

[yoniy0]

In my heart I want to say yes, he is. It has a nice ring to it, this theory. But my head wins this time. He isn't, there's just too much evidence to the contrary.

 

EDIT: You must be kidding me. Three people still support the Taimadred theory (and are willing to admit it in public )? You guys, RJ was VERY clear on the matter. Taim's a red herring, that's all.

[Ashandarei]

In my heart I want to say yes, he is. It has a nice ring to it, this theory. But my head wins this time. He isn't, there's just too much evidence to the contrary.

 

EDIT: You must be kidding me. Three people still support the Taimadred theory (and are willing to admit it in public )? You guys, RJ was VERY clear on the matter. Taim's a red herring, that's all.

 

lol, I suppose I/we just have no shame...

[capuga]

While I realize RJ has clearly debunked the Taimandred theory, there are way too many similarities reasons that they should be the same for me to believe that Taim is not Demandred until Demandred actual reveals himself in AMoL. In fact, RJ shouldn't have provided so much evidence linking the two if they are in fact different people. He sets it up perfectly for that to work and then comes out and denies the theory- ticks me off.

 

They call that a red herring. I find the "RJ is a bald faced liar" argument to be a little tough to swallow (not directed at your post in particular, just in the general holding onto this theory that should have died years ago when God spoke). He very explicitly said that Taim was not Demmy. If that was not plain enough he also said that we have not seen Demmy's alter-ego through CoT.

 

And the same arguments that people used to theorize that Taim was Demandred are now being used to argue that Taim is Moridin. So those clues were apparently not so obviously tied to Demandred since they can also be applied to others as well.

[Ashandarei]

If that was not plain enough he also said that we have not seen Demmy's alter-ego through CoT.

 

I had read about that and was wondering, is there anywhere that people have found decent evidence to show who Dem might be? I know a bunch of people keep saying Roedran and such but there's nothing strong that supports that. Am very curious to find out.

[rsahae]

I picked the Taimandred option in the poll even though it's not correct (to me, the juxtaposition of Taim and Demandred in the Ashaman's thoughts is conclusive), because

 

1. Tradition!

2. There are no prizes awarded for the correct answer

3. RJ's not around anymore so he doesn't mind being contradicted

4. WhatEVER the explanation is, it won't be as satisfying as if Taim was Demandred (if he's Moridin, then it might). WhatEVER the explanation is, it will be as anti-climactic and not worth waiting for as the Asmodean murder revelation was.

5. Which means, since we know the real thing won't measure up to our expectations, better to have it the way YOU want it!

[capuga]

If that was not plain enough he also said that we have not seen Demmy's alter-ego through CoT.

 

I had read about that and was wondering, is there anywhere that people have found decent evidence to show who Dem might be? I know a bunch of people keep saying Roedran and such but there's nothing strong that supports that. Am very curious to find out.

 

That one's generated almost as much discussion as the who killed Asmo thread. There are a few threads floating around (I know there was a recent one on these spoiler boards if you look a page or two back) and one in the structured discussion board if you want to look for them. I think its either Roedran or that its someone we still haven't seen yet. I don't know who else that we have actually seen in the last couple of books that would be a good candidate. Unfortunately, I think that the fandom has speculated about Demmy so much and built it up so much that it is bound to be a disappointment when he is finally revealed. Its funny, he has accomplished very little that we see "on screen" but everyone assumes that he is doing such awesome things behind the scenes that it will be hard for the character to live up to the expectations.

[Elan Tedronai]

Taim is neither demandred nor moridin. Taim is taim. Just a male channeller who the shadow put their claws on. It that's simple

[Ashandarei]

Unfortunately, I think that the fandom has speculated about Demmy so much and built it up so much that it is bound to be a disappointment when he is finally revealed. Its funny, he has accomplished very little that we see "on screen" but everyone assumes that he is doing such awesome things behind the scenes that it will be hard for the character to live up to the expectations.

 

Yeah, I know I feel that a forsaken that has been hidden by RJ for 13 out of 14 books, even if hidden in plain sight, ought to have a very good reason to be kept hidden because it will be very anticlimactic/disappointing when it's revealed otherwise. IMO, part of the reason so many were behind the Taimandred theory and a few of us still are is that leading the BT Ashaman/dreadlords would certainly be epic enough to merit the build-up.

 

A similar example would be that of Graendal. While her identity is revealed sooner, her location was hidden all the way until ToM; all anybody had was a "hunch" that she was in Arad Doman via Asmodean. When her whereabouts are finally shown, Rand uses the male Chodedan Kal itself to balefire the whole castle! Not only that, we see in the same chapter that Graendal has access to the TP and finally we actually see the animal-spying TP weave performed. All that in the space of a few pages because it was hidden/built-up for so long. Hence it makes sense to expect something pretty epic with Demandred as well, me thinks.

 

That doesn't mean that it still might not be enough to satisfy the hype, but most of us know not to go too overboard with what to expect, I hope.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Guaire Amalasan was not gentled but in fact his men who broke into the courtyard of Tar Valon itself rescued him. Ishamael who was at large at the time no doubt had his machinations with all the events. He took Amalasan and put him in a stasis box. Thus explaining many of Taim's outdated mannerisms and older than norm age.

[capuga]

Guaire Amalasan was not gentled but in fact his men who broke into the courtyard of Tar Valon itself rescued him. Ishamael who was at large at the time no doubt had his machinations with all the events. He took Amalasan and put him in a stasis box. Thus explaining many of Taim's outdated mannerisms and older than norm age.

 

I don't remember - do we have evidence that Moridin has a statis box or that living things can live in them? Do the books discuss Guaire's fate? This is an interesting theory (although I don't know that I believe it) and at least it doesn't seem to have a bunch of contridicting evidence like Taim=Moridin does.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Weren't the Gholam stored inside a stasis box? They seemed fit and vital enough after a few thousand years rest.

[capuga]

Weren't the Gholam stored inside a stasis box? They seemed fit and vital enough after a few thousand years rest.

 

Yeah, but they're constructs though so I'm not sure the same rules apply. It would be kinda cool if this theory were true though.

[Orderofolde]

Good summary of the various arguments. Taim is not Moridin. I have argued this extensively in other threads so I would prefer not to have to rehash everything, but it would take an awful lot of things explained away for Taim to be Moridin. The "con" evidence is just too overwhelming. There is no reasonable away to explain all the arguments against it. On the other hand, all it takes is one reasonable assumption (Taim was a student of a Forsaken, likely Ishy) to explain away the "pro" arguments. This theory has always seemed so unlikely to me that I am continually surprised at how much support it gets.

There's been hints that Taim may have been trained by Ishamael who is now Moridin, so it's either that and of course he picked up the sigil and the mannerisms in both stance and speech, "so-called Aiel" as people do mimic those around them. Stick a guy without an accent in the south, he'll add so drawl, stick him in Jersey, same thing. Person with an accent in among non-accented folk, they go flat over time. Natural acclamation. The other thing since RJ denied that Taim was Moridin, is that either he's speaking as an Aes Sedai and Taim is "Ishameal" or he was originally written, as is popular opinion, that he was once supposed to be written as Demandred in disguise as many of the forsaken were written in as others in disguise in the earlier books, and later was changed because RJ thought of something even wickeder to have Demandred pop out as.

[androgyn]

I really doubt that Taim would be Moridin. It just doesn't make sence, Taim was a False Dragon at the same time when Ishamael(/Moridin) was playing Ba'alzamon, so why would he make a new character for himself

- character who could maybe be cut off from the ability to channel?

 

I think Taim is now just trained by Moridin and now doing as he orders, because this way he could get at the same level than Forsaken (or upper, everyone wants always get to the top of the cake..). They can think him as a threat with all those Ashaman behind him, making chaos inside the BT and having a connection to Rand.

[herid]

The other thing since RJ denied that Taim was Moridin,

wow, when did that happen?! I've never heard of RJ denying that Taim is Moridin. have a link to a quote?

[Ashandarei]

[...]or he was originally written, as is popular opinion, that he was once supposed to be written as Demandred in disguise as many of the forsaken were written in as others in disguise in the earlier books, and later was changed because RJ thought of something even wickeder to have Demandred pop out as.

 

I could definitely see that.

[yoniy0]

Guaire Amalasan was not gentled but in fact his men who broke into the courtyard of Tar Valon itself rescued him. Ishamael who was at large at the time no doubt had his machinations with all the events. He took Amalasan and put him in a stasis box. Thus explaining many of Taim's outdated mannerisms and older than norm age.

I don't remember - do we have evidence that Moridin has a statis box or that living things can live in them? Do the books discuss Guaire's fate? This is an interesting theory (although I don't know that I believe it) and at least it doesn't seem to have a bunch of contridicting evidence like Taim=Moridin does.

You don't remember for a good reason. RembrandtQ.Einstein's theory, while interesting, is just that - a theory. No part of it has any support in the books that I'm aware of (well, Taim does seem to know the origins of the Aiel, and Amalasan's men did breach the Shining Walls, but that's it).

 

The other thing since RJ denied that Taim was Moridin,

wow, when did that happen?! I've never heard of RJ denying that Taim is Moridin. have a link to a quote?

Unless I'm much mistaken, RJ never actually said that. However, while we're on the subject of what RJ did or did not say, that remark of his that Demandred's alter ago wasn't seen on screen as of CoT was later extended to include KoD by Brandon. However, Brandon figures that someone out there might be able to guess what Demandred's been doing all this time based on clues from the books.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Guaire Amalasan was not gentled but in fact his men who broke into the courtyard of Tar Valon itself rescued him. Ishamael who was at large at the time no doubt had his machinations with all the events. He took Amalasan and put him in a stasis box. Thus explaining many of Taim's outdated mannerisms and older than norm age.

I don't remember - do we have evidence that Moridin has a statis box or that living things can live in them? Do the books discuss Guaire's fate? This is an interesting theory (although I don't know that I believe it) and at least it doesn't seem to have a bunch of contridicting evidence like Taim=Moridin does.

You don't remember for a good reason. RembrandtQ.Einstein's theory, while interesting, is just that - a theory. No part of it has any support in the books that I'm aware of (well, Taim does seem to know the origins of the Aiel, and Amalasan's men did breach the Shining Walls, but that's it).

 

The other thing since RJ denied that Taim was Moridin,

wow, when did that happen?! I've never heard of RJ denying that Taim is Moridin. have a link to a quote?

Unless I'm much mistaken, RJ never actually said that. However, while we're on the subject of what RJ did or did not say, that remark of his that Demandred's alter ago wasn't seen on screen as of CoT was later extended to include KoD by Brandon. However, Brandon figures that someone out there might be able to guess what Demandred's been doing all this time based on clues from the books.

 

 

True. However I find other small details interesting. Such as how Amalasan's sigil was the Aes Sedai symbol on blue. Taim on the other hand seems to use blue dragons. There seems to be a certain color consistency in their style. Also taken from the book I find these parts interesting;

 

- Ishamael seems to know rather a lot about Amalasan as we see when he tells Rand, Mat and Perrin in their dreams they are going to be used by the Amyrlin Seat just like Guaire Amalasan.

 

- In TGH Siuan orders Taim to be gentled immediately once he is captured no matter what the Tower Law states, because she does not want to risk another Guaire Amalasan.

 

 

Also while we know where Logain comes from the origins of Taim are a bit shrouded in mystery. Beyond knowing that he declared in Saldaea we don't know anything. As for my theory about his being broken out in the fight. The Aes Sedai are notorious for lying and covering up the truth with their "secret histories" where official and truth don't always meet eye to eye. We know from BWB that over 100,000 soldiers under Sawyn Maculhen and Elinde Motheneos captured at least two of the Alindrelle Erinin bridges. Then proceeded to fight through the entire city itself. Reach the walls of Tar Valon and break through the white walls of the Tower itself. Then continue fighting through the Tower and reach the inner sanctum of the courtyard. Considering upwards of 40,0000 men died on the Dragonsworn side alone, let alone the losses among the Tar Valon guard or Hawkwings men, it must have been nothing short of purely chaotic with corpses piling up in the city with a passion. I don't see it as too unreasonable to assume that since it is noted in the histories that the men broke into the very courtyard where Amalasan was present, that he escaped or fled. Aes Sedai being Aes Sedai would never admit to such a thing happening. In the same fashion they deny that Tar Valon was ever breached despite having an army of nearly 100,000 rampaging through it to save a false Dragon.

 

Likewise Amalasan keeps appearing again in small references in the story starting from Ishamael being the first person to mention him back in TEoW. He is also mentioned again in more detail when Rand is in Far Madding on his vendetta against the rogue Asha'men who Taim ordered to try and assassinate Rand.