Will Elayne become a full Aes Sedai?

[randsc]

It seems that in the last age, being raised to Aes Sedai was something that happened to recognize years of achievement, not simply someting that happened because one was born with the innate ability to channel and underwent a few years of training.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Not really laughable. The Aes Sedai have never had a problem killing people. The Oaths only prevent them from using the OP to kill. They use Warders, armies and political maneuvering to kill people all the time. Elayne is not personally making power-wrought weapons.

 

Ironically, the current oths prevent the creation of power-wrought weapons like Perrin's hammer, which can only kill a few people and which works especially well on Shadowspawn, but not cannons, which will kill thousands.

 

Truly, Asmoedean was right to call them, "Those fool Oaths."

 

 

Yeah I meant laughable in the pretense of holding true to the oaths, in the thought of it'd be altruistic for her to hold absolutely true to the oaths, but we all know that doesn't happen as often as one would hope through given examples in the series. She could swear the oath to not make a weapon, but like you said she goes ahead and has folks manufacturing bazookas, for example, and she's still got that blanket of "Ooohhh I'm not the one who actually, personally, made them, even though I paid for and ordered their creation.. Tee hee hee! *toes hole in sand" ...That's what makes her, or any similarly stanced AS, swearing that oath so laughable.

 

I think Asmo might have felt the oaths were foolish because it holds AS back from say, full destructive potential. Fundamentally, I believe, the oaths are pretty sound in their intent - for me the oaths aren't a problem at all, it's the dingbats that warp and degrade the integrity of those oaths by being straight bitc..uh, so creative and resourceful, which leads to them being such a joke to other people, readers or randlanders.

[yoniy0]

she's still got that blanket of "Ooohhh I'm not the one who actually, personally, made them, even though I paid for and ordered their creation.. Tee hee hee! *toes hole in sand"

I'm not sure you fully understand the way this Oath works. Elayne would have no problem to manufacture a dragon with her own two hands, if she had the skill. She only vows not to use the Power in the making of weapons.

[Mats Spare Hat]

she's still got that blanket of "Ooohhh I'm not the one who actually, personally, made them, even though I paid for and ordered their creation.. Tee hee hee! *toes hole in sand"

I'm not sure you fully understand the way this Oath works. Elayne would have no problem to manufacture a dragon with her own two hands, if she had the skill. She only vows not to use the Power in the making of weapons.

 

 

That I get, for sure. Even so, to me, if she were to forge up a cannon sans the power, with her own to hands for instance, it completely undermines the spirit of the oath. Yeah, in that case, she wouldn't have used the power to make a weapon, but then you've still got an Aes Sedai making weapons, or even ordering people to make weapons, for people to kill each other with.

 

For me that really rubs on the integrity of an Aes Sedai...It is a thick line between using the power to make a weapon, and making a weapon by an AS's own physical means, skill or whatever. In that case it would look still look like an Aes Sedai made a weapon, or commissioned the making of weapons for which people to kill each other, and with the implied, and exampled mistrust amongst random randlanders for Aes Sedai, to me, that wouldn't exactly shine on any AS for making a weapon, whether she used the power or not...

 

They, or Elayne, wouldn't technically be breaking the oath. They'd just be dragging it through the mud and laughing all the way to the bank! "I didn't use the power so it's okay! *blows holes in folk with cannon" ... ..what a joke!

[capuga]

she's still got that blanket of "Ooohhh I'm not the one who actually, personally, made them, even though I paid for and ordered their creation.. Tee hee hee! *toes hole in sand"

I'm not sure you fully understand the way this Oath works. Elayne would have no problem to manufacture a dragon with her own two hands, if she had the skill. She only vows not to use the Power in the making of weapons.

 

 

That I get, for sure. Even so, to me, if she were to forge up a cannon sans the power, with her own to hands for instance, it completely undermines the spirit of the oath. Yeah, in that case, she wouldn't have used the power to make a weapon, but then you've still got an Aes Sedai making weapons, or even ordering people to make weapons, for people to kill each other with.

 

For me that really rubs on the integrity of an Aes Sedai...It is a thick line between using the power to make a weapon, and making a weapon by an AS's own physical means, skill or whatever. In that case it would look still look like an Aes Sedai made a weapon, or commissioned the making of weapons for which people to kill each other, and with the implied, and exampled mistrust amongst random randlanders for Aes Sedai, to me, that wouldn't exactly shine on any AS for making a weapon, whether she used the power or not...

 

They, or Elayne, wouldn't technically be breaking the oath. They'd just be dragging it through the mud and laughing all the way to the bank! "I didn't use the power so it's okay! *blows holes in folk with cannon" ... ..what a joke!

 

But isn't that what they do with the Oaths in general? They are famous for twisting words so they are not actually lying but not telling you the true you think you are hearing. Nobody trusts an Aes Sedai's word despite the Oath against lying.

 

Just one of the many reasons that not only are the Oaths silly, but are actually short-sighted and counter-productive.

[yoniy0]

The difference here is that the Oath was never meant to mean what you imply it was. It was Power-wrought weapons that devastated the world during the War of Power, and that is the only reason they vowed not to make them again. They don't pretend that they're against weapons existing in general, or the making of new weapons, as long as they're not Power-wrought.

[Nooska]

Oh, just to celar up a misconception thats crept in;

Apart from the oath of not lieing, it seems the last 2 are being mixed together - its 1) To not use the power as a weapon (exceptions), and 2) To make no weapon with which one man may kill another.

Says nothing about it being making a weapon with the power - while some AS might think so, simply making them aware would prevent them from making any weapon unless they can wriggle out of the wording of the oath (say make a weapon that only a woman can use - which should be possible with the power)

[yoniy0]

Oh no, RJ made it clear that the intention of the Oath is to forbid Power-wrought weapons, and that it's understood as such by all AS (which then means that it actually only has that effect).

[Mats Spare Hat]

 

But isn't that what they do with the Oaths in general? They are famous for twisting words so they are not actually lying but not telling you the true you think you are hearing. Nobody trusts an Aes Sedai's word despite the Oath against lying.

 

Just one of the many reasons that not only are the Oaths silly, but are actually short-sighted and counter-productive.

 

 

That's just it, what the Aes Sedai have done over the age is what makes the oaths look silly. I don't think the oaths themselves are short sighted, or silly & counter-productive. The AS are the ones who ended up making them look like dopey guidelines instead of fundamental rules for life, without holding themselves to a higher standard beyond the bare minimum those sworn oaths entail...And like you said, a lot of them will bandy, twist, and wriggle, pushing that minimum even lower at what seems to be every given opportunity.

 

To me it's a head-shaker.

[capuga]

 

But isn't that what they do with the Oaths in general? They are famous for twisting words so they are not actually lying but not telling you the true you think you are hearing. Nobody trusts an Aes Sedai's word despite the Oath against lying.

 

Just one of the many reasons that not only are the Oaths silly, but are actually short-sighted and counter-productive.

 

 

That's just it, what the Aes Sedai have done over the age is what makes the oaths look silly. I don't think the oaths themselves are short sighted, or silly & counter-productive. The AS are the ones who ended up making them look like dopey guidelines instead of fundamental rules for life, without holding themselves to a higher standard beyond the bare minimum those sworn oaths entail...And like you said, a lot of them will bandy, twist, and wriggle, pushing that minimum even lower at what seems to be every given opportunity.

 

To me it's a head-shaker.

 

Luckers discussed this better than I can in his thread on the General board called "The Life and Times of Aes Sedai - A Study in Stupidity" but I'll try to cover the main points:

 

Again, does anybody trust the word of an Aes Sedai? Why not? Not just because they know AS twist words. Its also because there is an underlying implication that without the Oath they would be lying their butts off. Why else would you need the Oath? That goes for all the Oaths. Apparently AS need to take an Oath not to rain down the Power in a murderous, conquering rage. If not, why would they need to take the Oath. The Oaths themselves make it seem that the AS are incapable of controling themselves. They are telling the general public that they can be trusted because, and apparently only because, they have taken the Oaths. That's why I call them counter-productive. They actually create a perception of dishonesty and Power-mongering that need to be controlled.

 

If you saw a guy walking down the street, you would decide if it was safe or not to be around him based on his actions. If you saw the same guy walking down the street in handcuffs (to make him "safe") you will naturally assume that he would not be safe if it was not for the handcuffs that control him. The Aes Sedai would be far more trusted if over the last 3000 years they had used their actions to assert their good intentions instead of relying on saying the Oaths force them to be good.

 

You see channelers from the Aiel and Sea Folk that are not bound by the Oaths and yet are viewed with much more respect and trust from their respective cultures than the Aes Sedai are viewed by theirs (Randland in general in this case). The Oaths are a part of this.

 

That is all aside from the fact that they cut your lifespan in half.

[fairfax]

Egwene had already declared Elayne to be Aes Sedai, and Elayne would be subject to the strictures of an Aes Sedai. In the relationship between Egwene and Elayne it wouldn't make much of a difference if Elayne took the test and swore the three oaths. All the arguements that Elayne would be subject to Egwene's commmands if she swore the oaths are already in effect and would have no bearing on if Elayne would swear the oaths.

 

In practical terms Elayne's and Egwene's relationship would probably stay the same. Elayne won't be taking the oaths before the babies are born and Tarmon Gaidan. After TG Elayne will still be Queen of two powerful countries, through Perrin neither Saldaea or Ghealdan will oppose Elayne and may help Elayne, the Kin, the need to rebuild Randland, the Black Tower, the Seanchan, and if Rand is still alive all make it unlikely the White Tower will try to interfere with Elayne temporal rule of Andor and Cairhein.

 

Egwene and Elayne will probably meet the tel'aran'rhiod discuss and negotiate what needs to be done vis-a-vis Andor/Cairhein and the White Tower. There will not be an open breach between the two.

 

I don't expect Elayne to take the oaths. Once the Black Tower is cleaned out of Dark Friends, the White Tower and Black Tower are going to have to come to terms. The Ashaman aren't going to shorten their life spans and take the oaths. Why should Elayne? The rest of the Tower are going to see the Kin, Windfinders, Wise Ones, the Ashaman, not take the oaths get respect from the rest of the world and live twice as long. The oaths are finished.

[Ashandarei]

Luckers discussed this better than I can in his thread on the General board called "The Life and Times of Aes Sedai - A Study in Stupidity" but I'll try to cover the main points:

 

Again, does anybody trust the word of an Aes Sedai? Why not? Not just because they know AS twist words. Its also because there is an underlying implication that without the Oath they would be lying their butts off. Why else would you need the Oath? That goes for all the Oaths. Apparently AS need to take an Oath not to rain down the Power in a murderous, conquering rage. If not, why would they need to take the Oath. The Oaths themselves make it seem that the AS are incapable of controling themselves. They are telling the general public that they can be trusted because, and apparently only because, they have taken the Oaths. That's why I call them counter-productive. They actually create a perception of dishonesty and Power-mongering that need to be controlled.

 

If you saw a guy walking down the street, you would decide if it was safe or not to be around him based on his actions. If you saw the same guy walking down the street in handcuffs (to make him "safe") you will naturally assume that he would not be safe if it was not for the handcuffs that control him. The Aes Sedai would be far more trusted if over the last 3000 years they had used their actions to assert their good intentions instead of relying on saying the Oaths force them to be good.

 

You see channelers from the Aiel and Sea Folk that are not bound by the Oaths and yet are viewed with much more respect and trust from their respective cultures than the Aes Sedai are viewed by theirs (Randland in general in this case). The Oaths are a part of this.

 

That is all aside from the fact that they cut your lifespan in half.

 

Every time I think of the Aes Sedai I get incredibly frustrated in me at the colossal idiots that they have become from the ideal that they were in the AoL. I read Luckers' post- it made so many good points. I've been feeling a thread coming on about that topic, it's still coagulating in my mind, so not yet but I even have a couple more points to add to his analysis, partially derived from events in AMoL.

 

If anyone else wanted to check it out, here's the link: The Life and Times of An Aes Sedai: A Study in Stupidity

[Mats Spare Hat]

I see it that if you swear an oath, you should exemplify the spirit and letter of those oaths to the best of your ability. If you're a good person and would have done so otherwise with or without being bound by an oath rod, then that's great. The reality however remains: There are oaths each Aes Sedai has to swear to if she would be Aes Sedai, and I believe those oaths came about out of the best of intentions.

 

Actions do speak louder than words, but I think words hold even greater meaning when you back those words up through action. In my eyes, this a big fault with some Aes Sedai. They would have been better off if they walked the walk, instead of relying on oaths to back up their intentions, holed up in their ivory tower. However, philosophically, I don't see the harm if your actions match up, exemplify, or even exceed the ideals of the oaths you have to swear in order to belong to an organization.

 

Aes Sedai are the one's who aren't being as productive as they should. Is it the oaths that are to blame for their actions, or lack thereof? To me, the answer is no; The oaths themselves aren't to blame. They aren't stopping the AS from doing good things, taking part in the world or changing public perception of their organization.

 

It's like blaming the rulebook for a players lack of effort!

[Elan Tedronai]

To be fair though, you have to realise that the Aes sedai for the most part of the series were a dysfunctional unit led by a tyrant dancing on black ajah strings.

 

Things are going to change with Eggy at the helm. We have already stuff like the aiel/windfinders/aes sedai exchange program.

[sskk]

This is particularly egregious in the case of Elayne, who has publicly and privately railed against even the appearance of Rand's suzerainty (which he has never exercised, or even CLAIMED) while she seems all-too willing to submit to Egwene's demands.

People should really put aside their feelings for her and think about the issue at hand. She was in a difficult situation. You've all read Dyelin - she wouldn't have supported Elayne if she didn't make it clear she was putting forward her own claim, not accepting Rand's declaration that the Lion Throne belongs to her. His declaring that was very problematic for her in the Andoran inner-stage, she had to distance herself somewhat. And really, what did she do? Removed the flags of a foreign sovereign from her capitol city? Evict his policing force and reclaimed Caemlyn for Andor? Is that really that unexpected? I'd have done so myself, were I in her situation.

 

You think way too much of traditions and not nearly enough of power, who is Dyelin? A person who was entirely at Rand's mercy.

 

I can tell you this, had Rand wanted, he could very easily declared Queen of Andor and the entire noble class has FAILED its people in that they let a forsaken ruled the country.

 

And him, the lord dragon is the one saved people of Andor. He could then named himself king, and it would be easy to gain people's support. Any noble house who dare to not support him can be easily deposed of. I don't think he even needs to let anyone know who his mother was.

 

The "Andoran inner-stage" you speak of couldn't do a thing to Rahvin, nor will they able to do a thing to Rand, had he wanted to rule Andor.

 

 

What Elyne did there, was political SUICIDE, she only got away from it because Rand is her lover AND a very nice person without a huger for power.

Rand could say that he'd just saved them from a Chosen, but why should they believe him? As far as anyone has any reason to believe, Gaebril was just an Andoran lord. Rand says they've failed, they reply with "prove it." The people weren't sold on Rand either, what with him being a foreign conqueror.

 

 

Yeah right, if Rand is going hard on them, the high houses who run away from 1 forsaken who made the queen his pet would somehow have the gut to say "prove it" to Rand's face, who happen to be more powerful, and with the most powerful army the wetland has seen in light knows how many years?? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

[sskk]

Back on topic, I think lots of people forgot Elyne said that Lady Elyne and Elyne Sedai is one of the same. Not exactly quote, but she said it before she became the queen.

[Mr Ares]

I see it that if you swear an oath, you should exemplify the spirit and letter of those oaths to the best of your ability. If you're a good person and would have done so otherwise with or without being bound by an oath rod, then that's great. The reality however remains: There are oaths each Aes Sedai has to swear to if she would be Aes Sedai, and I believe those oaths came about out of the best of intentions.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. They might have had good intentions when they swore the Oaths, but that doesn't mean they were a good idea then, or are a good idea now, or should be considered the basis of what it is to be AS. The Oaths might not be to blame, but they don't help. Ultimately, they are pretty damn useless.

 

This is particularly egregious in the case of Elayne, who has publicly and privately railed against even the appearance of Rand's suzerainty (which he has never exercised, or even CLAIMED) while she seems all-too willing to submit to Egwene's demands.

People should really put aside their feelings for her and think about the issue at hand. She was in a difficult situation. You've all read Dyelin - she wouldn't have supported Elayne if she didn't make it clear she was putting forward her own claim, not accepting Rand's declaration that the Lion Throne belongs to her. His declaring that was very problematic for her in the Andoran inner-stage, she had to distance herself somewhat. And really, what did she do? Removed the flags of a foreign sovereign from her capitol city? Evict his policing force and reclaimed Caemlyn for Andor? Is that really that unexpected? I'd have done so myself, were I in her situation.

 

You think way too much of traditions and not nearly enough of power, who is Dyelin? A person who was entirely at Rand's mercy.

 

I can tell you this, had Rand wanted, he could very easily declared Queen of Andor and the entire noble class has FAILED its people in that they let a forsaken ruled the country.

 

And him, the lord dragon is the one saved people of Andor. He could then named himself king, and it would be easy to gain people's support. Any noble house who dare to not support him can be easily deposed of. I don't think he even needs to let anyone know who his mother was.

 

The "Andoran inner-stage" you speak of couldn't do a thing to Rahvin, nor will they able to do a thing to Rand, had he wanted to rule Andor.

 

 

What Elyne did there, was political SUICIDE, she only got away from it because Rand is her lover AND a very nice person without a huger for power.

Rand could say that he'd just saved them from a Chosen, but why should they believe him? As far as anyone has any reason to believe, Gaebril was just an Andoran lord. Rand says they've failed, they reply with "prove it." The people weren't sold on Rand either, what with him being a foreign conqueror.

Yeah right, if Rand is going hard on them, the high houses who run away from 1 forsaken who made the queen his pet would somehow have the gut to say "prove it" to Rand's face, who happen to be more powerful, and with the most powerful army the wetland has seen in light knows how many years?? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

They didn't run away because Gaebril was a Chosen, because they had no idea he was a Chosen. He was an Andoran lord with a lot of influence over the Queen. And if Rand is saying he killed Rahvin, not Gaebril, then why should people believe him? And if he is saying they should believe him because he has a huge army, that doesn't exactly make for a compelling case. The Rand-saved-the-people-of-Andor case you put forward is one you are now claiming doesn't matter - they couldn't stand up to his massive army, and if they try he'll smash them into the dirt. Make up your mind - is he gaining support because he's saying "I killed Rahvin, take my word for it", or is he gaining support because he's saying "obey or die"?

[randsc]

Back on topic, I think lots of people forgot Elyne said that Lady Elyne and Elyne Sedai is one of the same. Not exactly quote, but she said it before she became the queen.

 

I think Elayne is very aware of the distinction. I'm not so sure about Egwene. Or, rather, I'm not sure Egwene would think it matters, because she would think that Lady Elayne (now Queen Elayne) should do what she was told every bit as much as Elayne Sedai.

 

I'm expecting that Elayne will support Egwene at the Field of Merilor, and the Perrin, Mat and Moiraine will sway the balance toward Rand. But in a way that's too bad, because an Elayne/Egwene confrontation would be interesting.

[David Selig]

Egwene had already declared Elayne to be Aes Sedai, and Elayne would be subject to the strictures of an Aes Sedai. In the relationship between Egwene and Elayne it wouldn't make much of a difference if Elayne took the test and swore the three oaths. All the arguements that Elayne would be subject to Egwene's commmands if she swore the oaths are already in effect and would have no bearing on if Elayne would swear the oaths

Good point.

 

I'm expecting that Elayne will support Egwene at the Field of Merilor, and the Perrin, Mat and Moiraine will sway the balance toward Rand. But in a way that's too bad, because an Elayne/Egwene confrontation would be interesting.

Yeah, it's about time they had a confrontation, their relationship has been almost unnaturally smooth right from the start. But it probably won't happen, since that's WoT and things almost always boil down to "men against women". Though I really hope this time it would be different from the Latra Posae and LTT conflict back in AoL and the major players would use different reasoning than that, and try to make a decision not influenced on such irrelevant in the case factors like Rand's gender.

[Elan Tedronai]

You have to say though that if latra posae went along with LTT's plan the world would have been doomed for good

[Barid Bel Medar]

You have to say though that if latra posae went along with LTT's plan the world would have been doomed for good

 

You are correct.

 

It was pretty much the work of the Pattern. It wasnt an error by either Lews Therin or Latra. They both did what was needed.

 

The bore needed to be sealed, so LTT sacrificed the male channelers in a way.

 

The pattern needed the bore to be sealed, and that was the only way.

 

However, the pattern also needed the women channelers to stay untainted.

 

Thus, Latra's opposition.

 

So both male and female were doing their part in the pattern.

 

The world would have been consumed by the DO if the males didnt seal the DO, even with the taint.

 

The world would have been utterly destroyed if both male and female was tainted.

 

 

I am hoping, however, that this isnt the same thing with Egwene and Rand. I hope it wont just be a repeat of Latra/LTT. That would be redundant.

 

Most likely, this time both will need to work together.

[Mats Spare Hat]

To be fair though, you have to realise that the Aes sedai for the most part of the series were a dysfunctional unit led by a tyrant dancing on black ajah strings.

 

Things are going to change with Eggy at the helm. We have already stuff like the aiel/windfinders/aes sedai exchange program.

 

 

That I totally agree with

[randsc]

You have to say though that if latra posae went along with LTT's plan the world would have been doomed for good

 

You are correct.

 

It was pretty much the work of the Pattern. It wasnt an error by either Lews Therin or Latra. They both did what was needed.

 

The bore needed to be sealed, so LTT sacrificed the male channelers in a way.

 

The pattern needed the bore to be sealed, and that was the only way.

 

However, the pattern also needed the women channelers to stay untainted.

 

Thus, Latra's opposition.

 

So both male and female were doing their part in the pattern.

 

The world would have been consumed by the DO if the males didnt seal the DO, even with the taint.

 

The world would have been utterly destroyed if both male and female was tainted.

 

 

I am hoping, however, that this isnt the same thing with Egwene and Rand. I hope it wont just be a repeat of Latra/LTT. That would be redundant.

 

Most likely, this time both will need to work together.

 

It would conform with Jordan's fetish for "balance" if this time, Saidar was tainted.

[sskk]

I see it that if you swear an oath, you should exemplify the spirit and letter of those oaths to the best of your ability. If you're a good person and would have done so otherwise with or without being bound by an oath rod, then that's great. The reality however remains: There are oaths each Aes Sedai has to swear to if she would be Aes Sedai, and I believe those oaths came about out of the best of intentions.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. They might have had good intentions when they swore the Oaths, but that doesn't mean they were a good idea then, or are a good idea now, or should be considered the basis of what it is to be AS. The Oaths might not be to blame, but they don't help. Ultimately, they are pretty damn useless.

 

This is particularly egregious in the case of Elayne, who has publicly and privately railed against even the appearance of Rand's suzerainty (which he has never exercised, or even CLAIMED) while she seems all-too willing to submit to Egwene's demands.

People should really put aside their feelings for her and think about the issue at hand. She was in a difficult situation. You've all read Dyelin - she wouldn't have supported Elayne if she didn't make it clear she was putting forward her own claim, not accepting Rand's declaration that the Lion Throne belongs to her. His declaring that was very problematic for her in the Andoran inner-stage, she had to distance herself somewhat. And really, what did she do? Removed the flags of a foreign sovereign from her capitol city? Evict his policing force and reclaimed Caemlyn for Andor? Is that really that unexpected? I'd have done so myself, were I in her situation.

 

You think way too much of traditions and not nearly enough of power, who is Dyelin? A person who was entirely at Rand's mercy.

 

I can tell you this, had Rand wanted, he could very easily declared Queen of Andor and the entire noble class has FAILED its people in that they let a forsaken ruled the country.

 

And him, the lord dragon is the one saved people of Andor. He could then named himself king, and it would be easy to gain people's support. Any noble house who dare to not support him can be easily deposed of. I don't think he even needs to let anyone know who his mother was.

 

The "Andoran inner-stage" you speak of couldn't do a thing to Rahvin, nor will they able to do a thing to Rand, had he wanted to rule Andor.

 

 

What Elyne did there, was political SUICIDE, she only got away from it because Rand is her lover AND a very nice person without a huger for power.

Rand could say that he'd just saved them from a Chosen, but why should they believe him? As far as anyone has any reason to believe, Gaebril was just an Andoran lord. Rand says they've failed, they reply with "prove it." The people weren't sold on Rand either, what with him being a foreign conqueror.

Yeah right, if Rand is going hard on them, the high houses who run away from 1 forsaken who made the queen his pet would somehow have the gut to say "prove it" to Rand's face, who happen to be more powerful, and with the most powerful army the wetland has seen in light knows how many years?? Not a snowball's chance in hell.

They didn't run away because Gaebril was a Chosen, because they had no idea he was a Chosen. He was an Andoran lord with a lot of influence over the Queen. And if Rand is saying he killed Rahvin, not Gaebril, then why should people believe him? And if he is saying they should believe him because he has a huge army, that doesn't exactly make for a compelling case. The Rand-saved-the-people-of-Andor case you put forward is one you are now claiming doesn't matter - they couldn't stand up to his massive army, and if they try he'll smash them into the dirt. Make up your mind - is he gaining support because he's saying "I killed Rahvin, take my word for it", or is he gaining support because he's saying "obey or die"?

 

You assume too much, for one thing, you assume Rand would treat noble and the common people the same way? You can treat Andor noble like dirt, they are less than useless, but the people...

 

Anyway I am not going to argue any more. Let's not drift the thread even further.

[Sleeper]

If Elayne succeeds in tying the Black Tower to Andor...

God I hope that doesn't happen.