Will Elayne become a full Aes Sedai?

[randsc]

David and Suttree, you have presented a reasonably convincing argument that even leaders who hate the White Tower would appear if summoned to an audience.

 

But you haven't responded to Morsker or Rembrant's points. Their position, as I understand it, is that not all leader grovel to the Amyrlin, kiss her ring, or call her Mother.

 

I find it very unlikely that Niall, even if he felt compelled to go to tar Valon due to the political power of the White Tower, would have kissed the Amyrlin's ring, or called her Mother. I doubt that even Galad, who was brought up to do these things, and has done so, would do so now.

 

No nation should submit to an organization of channellers any more than practical considerations compell it to. In other words, they should distance themselves from the Tower to as great an extent as they can get away with. What gives the White Tower the right to direct the affairs of the world? Nothing. The Aes Sedai hold their position because they have the ability to channel. Period. That gives them might, but not right.

[capuga]

I find it very unlikely that Niall, even if he felt compelled to go to tar Valon due to the political power of the White Tower, would have kissed the Amyrlin's ring, or called her Mother. I doubt that even Galad, who was brought up to do these things, and has done so, would do so now.

 

He may not kiss her ring but I think he would address her as Mother. That is her title. Just like she would call him Lord Captain Commander. Its not groveling (or even showing respect necessarily) to address someone by their title. You would call a royal Your Majesty. Plus, assuming it wasn't Galad who was friends with her, the LCC calling her "Egwene" would just sound too personal.

 

No nation should submit to an organization of channellers any more than practical considerations compell it to. In other words, they should distance themselves from the Tower to as great an extent as they can get away with. What gives the White Tower the right to direct the affairs of the world? Nothing. The Aes Sedai hold their position because they have the ability to channel. Period. That gives them might, but not right.

 

Certainly not right, but might gives you an awful lot of political power. This means that the various nations must, unfortunately, deal with the White Tower and at least listen to what they have to say.

[Hopefire]

 

Certainly not right, but might gives you an awful lot of political power. This means that the various nations must, unfortunately, deal with the White Tower and at least listen to what they have to say.

 

If Elayne succeeds in tying the Kin and the Black Tower to Andor, is able to ensure that the Lion Throne continues to control the Two Rivers area and also maintains her control of the Sun Throne, Elayne will have a pretty fair argument as being more powerful than the Amyrlin Seat. She'll have a larger base of channelers as citizens, she'll have control of all trade in a north-south direction east of the Mountains of Mist, she has made agreements that will put Andorian goods in other nations instantly, she'll have the two foremost universities in the world in her domains, she'll have the most advanced military in the world, she's making plans to reclaim land that has fallen into wilderness and put new holdings on those lands, and Andor itself was already doing pretty well before she got there - it's been remarked a few times that Andor is one of the worlds most powerful nations. Even if she doesn't come to an agreement that puts the Black Tower into alliance with the Lion Throne, most of the other criteria stand; given the path of books, given that the Black Tower is so close to Caemlyn city outskirts, I'm relatively confident that some sort of mutually beneficial agreement will be reached.

 

Anyhow, assume Elayne succeeds in most of those criteria: does the Amyrlin have to kneel for her?

[capuga]

 

Certainly not right, but might gives you an awful lot of political power. This means that the various nations must, unfortunately, deal with the White Tower and at least listen to what they have to say.

 

If Elayne succeeds in tying the Kin and the Black Tower to Andor, is able to ensure that the Lion Throne continues to control the Two Rivers area and also maintains her control of the Sun Throne, Elayne will have a pretty fair argument as being more powerful than the Amyrlin Seat. She'll have a larger base of channelers as citizens, she'll have control of all trade in a north-south direction east of the Mountains of Mist, she has made agreements that will put Andorian goods in other nations instantly, she'll have the two foremost universities in the world in her domains, she'll have the most advanced military in the world, she's making plans to reclaim land that has fallen into wilderness and put new holdings on those lands, and Andor itself was already doing pretty well before she got there - it's been remarked a few times that Andor is one of the worlds most powerful nations. Even if she doesn't come to an agreement that puts the Black Tower into alliance with the Lion Throne, most of the other criteria stand; given the path of books, given that the Black Tower is so close to Caemlyn city outskirts, I'm relatively confident that some sort of mutually beneficial agreement will be reached.

 

Anyhow, assume Elayne succeeds in most of those criteria: does the Amyrlin have to kneel for her?

 

But the White Tower still wields significant political influence. They can encourage nations not to trade with Andor, not to sign treaties with Andor. Any services they are able to provide can be withheld from Andor. Whether or not Elayne needs to these things or is more powerful then the White Tower, the Amyrlin can still be a thorne in Andor's foot politically. So Elayne would still give them the courtesy of listening to what they have to say and would try to remain on decent terms with the White Tower even if she wasn't Aes Sedai.

[David Selig]

My point was that the Amyrlin has enough influence, reputation and history on her side that it's apparently seen as normal that most monarchs kiss her ring and call her "Mother", and even the Whitecloak leader has to make some allowances for her. So those formal gestures in themselves won't be any problem for Elayne's image, especially given Andor's long tradition of good relations with the White Tower.

 

Anyhow, assume Elayne succeeds in most of those criteria: does the Amyrlin have to kneel for her?

Egwene didn't kneel to Rand, who by that point had 3 countries under his control plus the BT and millions of Aiel, not to mention being the saviour of the world, so I say - no way in hell. ;)

[Suttree]

David and Suttree, you have presented a reasonably convincing argument that even leaders who hate the White Tower would appear if summoned to an audience.

 

But you haven't responded to Morsker or Rembrant's points. Their position, as I understand it, is that not all leader grovel to the Amyrlin, kiss her ring, or call her Mother.

 

I find it very unlikely that Niall, even if he felt compelled to go to tar Valon due to the political power of the White Tower, would have kissed the Amyrlin's ring, or called her Mother. I doubt that even Galad, who was brought up to do these things, and has done so, would do so now.

 

From what we know of Pedron Niall I think it is fair to say he would call her Mother and kiss the ring for proprieties sake... while having 10 diff plots spinning in his head as to how to use the summons to his advantage. Galad most definitely with how he was brought up would as well. Neither would grovel though and Valda, he would have ignored the summons and handed over the messenger to Asunawa as a dark friend.

[sskk]

This is particularly egregious in the case of Elayne, who has publicly and privately railed against even the appearance of Rand's suzerainty (which he has never exercised, or even CLAIMED) while she seems all-too willing to submit to Egwene's demands.

People should really put aside their feelings for her and think about the issue at hand. She was in a difficult situation. You've all read Dyelin - she wouldn't have supported Elayne if she didn't make it clear she was putting forward her own claim, not accepting Rand's declaration that the Lion Throne belongs to her. His declaring that was very problematic for her in the Andoran inner-stage, she had to distance herself somewhat. And really, what did she do? Removed the flags of a foreign sovereign from her capitol city? Evict his policing force and reclaimed Caemlyn for Andor? Is that really that unexpected? I'd have done so myself, were I in her situation.

 

You think way too much of traditions and not nearly enough of power, who is Dyelin? A person who was entirely at Rand's mercy.

 

I can tell you this, had Rand wanted, he could very easily declared Queen of Andor and the entire noble class has FAILED its people in that they let a forsaken ruled the country.

 

And him, the lord dragon is the one saved people of Andor. He could then named himself king, and it would be easy to gain people's support. Any noble house who dare to not support him can be easily deposed of. I don't think he even needs to let anyone know who his mother was.

 

The "Andoran inner-stage" you speak of couldn't do a thing to Rahvin, nor will they able to do a thing to Rand, had he wanted to rule Andor.

 

 

What Elyne did there, was political SUICIDE, she only got away from it because Rand is her lover AND a very nice person without a huger for power.

[yoniy0]

You think way too much of traditions and not nearly enough of power

I respectfully disagree. Rand isn't Rahvin's equivalent. For one thing, he isn't willing to go to the same extremes to enforce his will. For another, he can't content himself with Andor, he has the whole world to care for. Also, by all accounts, most of the Major Houses withdrew their presence from Caemlyn during Rahvin's rule, which means they wouldn't necessarily have followed him into war.

Finally, for all the simple people of Andor know, Rand appeared at Caemlyn at the same time that Morgase disappeared. Hence, the obvious conclusion is that he got rid of her (indeed, we know that many people have believed it, and probably still do).

 

On a different note, welcome to DM. I hope your time here will be enjoyable.

[randsc]

David and Suttree, you have presented a reasonably convincing argument that even leaders who hate the White Tower would appear if summoned to an audience.

 

But you haven't responded to Morsker or Rembrant's points. Their position, as I understand it, is that not all leader grovel to the Amyrlin, kiss her ring, or call her Mother.

 

I find it very unlikely that Niall, even if he felt compelled to go to tar Valon due to the political power of the White Tower, would have kissed the Amyrlin's ring, or called her Mother. I doubt that even Galad, who was brought up to do these things, and has done so, would do so now.

 

From what we know of Pedron Niall I think it is fair to say he would call her Mother and kiss the ring for proprieties sake... while having 10 diff plots spinning in his head as to how to use the summons to his advantage. Galad most definitely with how he was brought up would as well. Neither would grovel though and Valda, he would have ignored the summons and handed over the messenger to Asunawa as a dark friend.

 

I disagree entirely. Much has been made (much, much, much) about how it would be difficult politically for Elayne to be seen as accepting help from Rand in securing Andor. What do you think it would do to the standing of a Lord Captain Commander who kissed the ring of the Chief Witch? It could never happen. He might have to obey a summons (although we have only the word of a White Tower partisan for that. A White Tower partisan trying to impress on another character the importance of the Amyrlin seat) but he would never grant her the formal respect she expects.

 

I bet he'd turn his back on the Amyrlin Seat, too. I can hear Egwene spluttering from here.

[akira.taylor]

David and Suttree, you have presented a reasonably convincing argument that even leaders who hate the White Tower would appear if summoned to an audience.

 

But you haven't responded to Morsker or Rembrant's points. Their position, as I understand it, is that not all leader grovel to the Amyrlin, kiss her ring, or call her Mother.

 

I find it very unlikely that Niall, even if he felt compelled to go to tar Valon due to the political power of the White Tower, would have kissed the Amyrlin's ring, or called her Mother. I doubt that even Galad, who was brought up to do these things, and has done so, would do so now.

 

From what we know of Pedron Niall I think it is fair to say he would call her Mother and kiss the ring for proprieties sake... while having 10 diff plots spinning in his head as to how to use the summons to his advantage. Galad most definitely with how he was brought up would as well. Neither would grovel though and Valda, he would have ignored the summons and handed over the messenger to Asunawa as a dark friend.

 

I disagree entirely. Much has been made (much, much, much) about how it would be difficult politically for Elayne to be seen as accepting help from Rand in securing Andor. What do you think it would do to the standing of a Lord Captain Commander who kissed the ring of the Chief Witch? It could never happen. He might have to obey a summons (although we have only the word of a White Tower partisan for that. A White Tower partisan trying to impress on another character the importance of the Amyrlin seat) but he would never grant her the formal respect she expects.

 

I bet he'd turn his back on the Amyrlin Seat, too. I can hear Egwene spluttering from here.

 

Depends - could he get away with it? He know the witches have an army, and wouldn't be stupid enough to meet with him without significant forces present (even if he doesn't know where), so he would have to consider his ability to do anything after insulting an Amyrlin to her face (dead men do very little of import in politics, except sometimes vote).

[yoniy0]

I disagree entirely. Much has been made (much, much, much) about how it would be difficult politically for Elayne to be seen as accepting help from Rand in securing Andor. What do you think it would do to the standing of a Lord Captain Commander who kissed the ring of the Chief Witch? It could never happen.

I beg to differ. There's a difference between accepting military aid from a foreign power to secure a throne and keeping proprieties. A major one. Do you think a modern-day head of state would be diminished by referring to the Holy See as Your Holiness and kissing his ring?

[randsc]

I disagree entirely. Much has been made (much, much, much) about how it would be difficult politically for Elayne to be seen as accepting help from Rand in securing Andor. What do you think it would do to the standing of a Lord Captain Commander who kissed the ring of the Chief Witch? It could never happen.

I beg to differ. There's a difference between accepting military aid from a foreign power to secure a throne and keeping proprieties. A major one. Do you think a modern-day head of state would be diminished by referring to the Holy See as Your Holiness and kissing his ring?

 

The modern-day head of a state which sees opposition to the Catholic Church as its raison d'etre?

 

You goddamn betcha.

 

The Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks could not offer "proprieties" to the Amyrlin Seat without losing the respect of his own followers.

[sskk]

You think way too much of traditions and not nearly enough of power

I respectfully disagree. Rand isn't Rahvin's equivalent. For one thing, he isn't willing to go to the same extremes to enforce his will. For another, he can't content himself with Andor, he has the whole world to care for. Also, by all accounts, most of the Major Houses withdrew their presence from Caemlyn during Rahvin's rule, which means they wouldn't necessarily have followed him into war.

Finally, for all the simple people of Andor know, Rand appeared at Caemlyn at the same time that Morgase disappeared. Hence, the obvious conclusion is that he got rid of her (indeed, we know that many people have believed it, and probably still do).

 

On a different note, welcome to DM. I hope your time here will be enjoyable.

 

First off, thanks for the welcome, but I was here back in 04-05, although I don't even have that email anymore, so have to get a new account.

 

Second, part of what you say just proves my point even stronger, Rahvin is the man without a real army of his own(shadowspwans doesn't work most of the time, as they will get all force of andor and nations around it to attack).

 

Yet, the best the "Major Houses" can do is run away, think what they can do to Rand, with an extremely powerful army? They are less than useless at time of chaos and war. They only matter if you let them.

 

Rand has time for Andor, if he rule the 4 major nations, he will able control almost half of the content west of the waste. He can easily make sure all 4 nations as well as smaller ones in that region corporate with each other and put all their resource into preparing for the Tarmon Gaidon. It's might be a better way, but the wheel weaves as the wheel wills, it was not the patch he had chosen.

 

Lastly, maybe we read differently, my impression is not many people really believed Rand did it to Morgase. Also here the high houses can be useful, tell the truth or die.

 

The rest of you said is my last point, Rand is a very nice person.

 

My real point is, Elyne chanced it with Rand, and got away with it doesn't mean it was right. Any other ruler would have made her regret for rest of her life.

[Suttree]

Lastly, maybe we read differently, my impression is not many people really believed Rand did it to Morgase. Also here the high houses can be useful, tell the truth or die.

 

Many people obviously believed Rand did do in Morgase. The rumours reached Gawyn, Galad and Elayne separately, in addition other comments in the book show this was a fairly common interpretation of events for the general populace.

[Guest aj1979]

I disagree entirely. Much has been made (much, much, much) about how it would be difficult politically for Elayne to be seen as accepting help from Rand in securing Andor. What do you think it would do to the standing of a Lord Captain Commander who kissed the ring of the Chief Witch? It could never happen.

I beg to differ. There's a difference between accepting military aid from a foreign power to secure a throne and keeping proprieties. A major one. Do you think a modern-day head of state would be diminished by referring to the Holy See as Your Holiness and kissing his ring?

 

The modern-day head of a state which sees opposition to the Catholic Church as its raison d'etre?

 

You goddamn betcha.

 

The Lord Captain Commander of the Whitecloaks could not offer "proprieties" to the Amyrlin Seat without losing the respect of his own followers.

 

A good example would be Pope JP II visiting Cuba in 1998. When Fidel Castro took power, he shut down hundreds of Catholic schools and expelled hundreds of priests. He described Cuba as an atheist country. (A common, though not universal part of communist ideology is opposition to religion, especially the Catholic Church.) In turn, the Pope excommunicated Castro. Yet, in 1998, the Pope visited Cuba and met with Castro, who treated him with reverence and respect. In fairness, the meeting followed a warming of relations between Cuba and the Catholic Church. Still, one can offer proprieties while still remaining fiercely opposed.

 

If the LCC met with the AS, he probably wouldn't do it in front of the entire assembled mass of the Children. It would be with a group of select, closely-loyal officers. They would likely have discussed how he would act in advance. The reality is, there would need to be some reason for the AS to meet with the LCC anyway. It would probably be a big deal. I don't think either side would put together volatile, risky situations like that without significant purpose. More likely, they would meet through emissaries, or even intermediaries. Point is, the AS aren't taken lightly, and are shown a certain respect. The Pope gets respect and he lacks the added level of hard muscle that the AS have.

[Mr Ares]

This is particularly egregious in the case of Elayne, who has publicly and privately railed against even the appearance of Rand's suzerainty (which he has never exercised, or even CLAIMED) while she seems all-too willing to submit to Egwene's demands.

People should really put aside their feelings for her and think about the issue at hand. She was in a difficult situation. You've all read Dyelin - she wouldn't have supported Elayne if she didn't make it clear she was putting forward her own claim, not accepting Rand's declaration that the Lion Throne belongs to her. His declaring that was very problematic for her in the Andoran inner-stage, she had to distance herself somewhat. And really, what did she do? Removed the flags of a foreign sovereign from her capitol city? Evict his policing force and reclaimed Caemlyn for Andor? Is that really that unexpected? I'd have done so myself, were I in her situation.

 

You think way too much of traditions and not nearly enough of power, who is Dyelin? A person who was entirely at Rand's mercy.

 

I can tell you this, had Rand wanted, he could very easily declared Queen of Andor and the entire noble class has FAILED its people in that they let a forsaken ruled the country.

 

And him, the lord dragon is the one saved people of Andor. He could then named himself king, and it would be easy to gain people's support. Any noble house who dare to not support him can be easily deposed of. I don't think he even needs to let anyone know who his mother was.

 

The "Andoran inner-stage" you speak of couldn't do a thing to Rahvin, nor will they able to do a thing to Rand, had he wanted to rule Andor.

 

 

What Elyne did there, was political SUICIDE, she only got away from it because Rand is her lover AND a very nice person without a huger for power.

Rand could say that he'd just saved them from a Chosen, but why should they believe him? As far as anyone has any reason to believe, Gaebril was just an Andoran lord. Rand says they've failed, they reply with "prove it." The people weren't sold on Rand either, what with him being a foreign conqueror.

[Elan Tedronai]

To answer the topic at hand

 

does it really matter?

[randsc]

To answer the topic at hand

 

does it really matter?

 

In a cosmic sense? Perhaps not.

[capuga]

To answer the topic at hand

 

does it really matter?

 

I've never really understood posts like this. This is a community where people gather to discuss the WoT. Anything WoT related that people want to discuss is fair game. If you don't find a particular thread interesting or worthy of your discussion, just avoid that thread and let the people that are interested in that topic discuss it.

[Ashandarei]

To answer the topic at hand

 

does it really matter?

 

I've never really understood posts like this. This is a community where people gather to discuss the WoT. Anything WoT related that people want to discuss is fair game. If you don't find a particular thread interesting or worthy of your discussion, just avoid that thread and let the people that are interested in that topic discuss it.

 

Completely agreed. I keep seeing people do this and it ticks me off.

[Mats Spare Hat]

If she swore the oaths and held true to them, it might makes things tricky in a political forum, being able to outright lie & so forth, but as a subject it could almost be endearing to know your ruler couldn't lie, or wouldn't use her powers against you as a weapon...

 

I think it's the hard link to the WT that would spook people out about Elayne becoming full Aes Sedai, for the most part. Although we've seen AS in the Cadsuane mold who could give two shakes over who the Amyrlin is, or what's on the WT's agenda. Granted she's been "retired", but since she still doesn't appear to give a crap over who's taken up residence in TV.

 

There stands a good chance she'll become full Aes Sedai. She may be expected to show respect & defer to the Amyrlin when it comes to WT business, if that's the case, but if she had a problem concerning an impact on Andor for instance, I don't think she'd have any problem at all walking away from being AS - Swearing the oaths is what makes you a full Aes Sedai, at least in this age, not whether or not you agree with or follow an Amyrlin.

 

Given all that, the Andor/Tar Valon relationship seems to have been win/win for both parties historically, and I don't think either would want to mess that alliance up over a question of who's subservient to who or by setting an agenda that wouldn't be beneficial to both parties. With Elayne in particular I get the impression she wouldn't be a pushover, beyond some sniffing/hair flipping/ugh omgee-ing, as far as any sort of WT influence upon Andor.

 

Of course the whole oaths thing gets laughable because she's already commissioned cannons for killing peo- I mean, for the defense of her nation *awkward glances from side to side...

 

Go figure!

[randsc]

Not really laughable. The Aes Sedai have never had a problem killing people. The Oaths only prevent them from using the OP to kill. They use Warders, armies and political maneuvering to kill people all the time. Elayne is not personally making power-wrought weapons.

 

Ironically, the current oths prevent the creation of power-wrought weapons like Perrin's hammer, which can only kill a few people and which works especially well on Shadowspawn, but not cannons, which will kill thousands.

 

Truly, Asmoedean was right to call them, "Those fool Oaths."

[Elan Tedronai]

To answer the topic at hand

 

does it really matter?

 

I've never really understood posts like this. This is a community where people gather to discuss the WoT. Anything WoT related that people want to discuss is fair game. If you don't find a particular thread interesting or worthy of your discussion, just avoid that thread and let the people that are interested in that topic discuss it.

 

talk about being over sensitive. relax dude. you need to chill out.

 

elayne being an aes sedai makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. Simply because her future is not in the White tower

[Elan Tedronai]

If she swore the oaths and held true to them, it might makes things tricky in a political forum, being able to outright lie & so forth, but as a subject it could almost be endearing to know your ruler couldn't lie, or wouldn't use her powers against you as a weapon...

 

I think it's the hard link to the WT that would spook people out about Elayne becoming full Aes Sedai, for the most part. Although we've seen AS in the Cadsuane mold who could give two shakes over who the Amyrlin is, or what's on the WT's agenda. Granted she's been "retired", but since she still doesn't appear to give a crap over who's taken up residence in TV.

 

There stands a good chance she'll become full Aes Sedai. She may be expected to show respect & defer to the Amyrlin when it comes to WT business, if that's the case, but if she had a problem concerning an impact on Andor for instance, I don't think she'd have any problem at all walking away from being AS - Swearing the oaths is what makes you a full Aes Sedai, at least in this age, not whether or not you agree with or follow an Amyrlin.

 

Given all that, the Andor/Tar Valon relationship seems to have been win/win for both parties historically, and I don't think either would want to mess that alliance up over a question of who's subservient to who or by setting an agenda that wouldn't be beneficial to both parties. With Elayne in particular I get the impression she wouldn't be a pushover, beyond some sniffing/hair flipping/ugh omgee-ing, as far as any sort of WT influence upon Andor.

 

Of course the whole oaths thing gets laughable because she's already commissioned cannons for killing peo- I mean, for the defense of her nation *awkward glances from side to side...

 

Go figure!

 

 

In the coming age, there will be a change in the way Aes Sedai are raised. There also will be no longer the usage of Oaths. Even the Ashaman will undergo a change in the way they rank up. This testing will allow them to fully become True male Aes Sedai.

 

How that happens is anyone's guess? perhaps Rand Sedai would give logain and co a few pointers how he got raised.

[capuga]

To answer the topic at hand

 

does it really matter?

 

I've never really understood posts like this. This is a community where people gather to discuss the WoT. Anything WoT related that people want to discuss is fair game. If you don't find a particular thread interesting or worthy of your discussion, just avoid that thread and let the people that are interested in that topic discuss it.

 

talk about being over sensitive. relax dude. you need to chill out.

 

elayne being an aes sedai makes no difference in the grand scheme of things. Simply because her future is not in the White tower

 

My comment wasn't really directed at you in particular. I've just seen 3 or 4 of those types of posts lately and yours happened to be the latest one. Your last comments that I have bolded make sense and are a much more useful addition to the conversation than just "Who cares".