Borderland Monarchs

[GregDietzFla]

Why have the borderland monarchs, over the last 3,000 years only managed what i would call mediocre defenses against the blight. Now granted Maradon was fairly well secured, however you would think that they would have built up the defenses even more. It is stated that the only entrance into Saldea from the blight has to go through their lower camp, why not have built a "great wall" across that gap. Saldea in my mind had the best defenses in the borderlands, but still not sufficient.

Now let us speak of the others. Why is Tarwin's Gap, noted by many characters as a major staging point for trolocs coming out of the blight, not reinforced in similar ways that maradon was. This seems to be a huge mistake by the Shienrans in my mind.

The same goes for Kandor and Arafel. I believe it is Kandor that has built a series of Forts that are their defense, which is all well and good, but once again, is that really the best that could have been done in 3,000 YEARS. I know little of Arafel's defenses, but judging from the fact that they were overrun rather quickly it seems that they were not that good either.

Now if these Monarchs had been unaware of the fact that the last battle would eventually come, i would forgive them their stupidness, however, they have known good and well what was coming, and even given a "sneak-peak" with the Trolloc Wars. Are you telling me that a few forts is the best that could have been done?

Please help me to understand...

[randsc]

The Borderland nations are neither large nor wealthy. They have fought a continual war against the Shadow for 3000 YEARS, and done so so well that people a couple of hundred miles to the south believed until recently that trollocs and fades were myths. All in all, they're remarkable people, easily the most admirable in Randland.

 

As for the idea of finding safety behind walls and fortifications, I would draw your attention to France, May of 1940.

 

If you want to blame someone for the lack of preparedness for the Last Battle, I would nominate the spoiled and decadent Southlands.

[Ashandarei]

The Borderland nations aren't a single unbroken wall of countries standing against the Blight, they're what's left after nation after nation that orginally was on the border got wiped out and this is what's left, like Malkier having been between Shienar and the Blight. So they really haven't had all that long to build these ever lasting and impregnable defenses, they're just scrambling to hold back the Blight as much as possible now that the responsibility's been thrust on them

[GregDietzFla]

The Borderland nations are neither large nor wealthy. They have fought a continual war against the Shadow for 3000 YEARS, and done so so well that people a couple of hundred miles to the south believed until recently that trollocs and fades were myths. All in all, they're remarkable people, easily the most admirable in Randland.

 

As for the idea of finding safety behind walls and fortifications, I would draw your attention to France, May of 1940.

 

If you want to blame someone for the lack of preparedness for the Last Battle, I would nominate the spoiled and decadent Southlands.

 

I agree with you that they have done well against the random Trolloc 'raids', but IIRC those raids are mostly to gather souls to sacrifice for mydraal swords, so the southlands not remembering them isn't that surprising.

 

I assume you are talking about the German invasion of France, in which case, i am finding it hard to draw a comparision. Which of the shadows forces are the panzer units. Where did they find rifles? (Not trying to be condesending, but the weaponry available invalidates this comparison).

I just used the idea of a wall, because it gives the defender an advantage and they know that they will be defending. Mostly my largest problem is the complete lack of defenses at Tarwin's Gap (KNOWN staging point for trolloc attacks).

 

Im actually going to blame Rand for the lack of preparedness(another topic altogether). Im blaming the borderland monarchs for their 'weak' defenses of thier border with the blight. Im saying that it has been many generations, if each generation built upon the defenses of the one before, they would be extremely effective by the time the Last Battle comes. (Where is it stated that they aren't wealthy?)

 

I agree with you that the soldiers of the borderlands are very well trained and i would even say they are admirable. Some of my favorite characters.

[AuldGoldBeard]

Add that to the fact that the Germans went around, not through, the Maginot Line, and the comparison is a complete flop.

 

 

Yes, the Borderlanders should have done a better job of walling off the Blight. Yes, they would never leave their nations with that many men and no supply line. Yes, they have ofted acted like fools. But it's literature; common sense bows down to narrative necessity.

[randsc]

1. There has been a good deal more activity along the Blightborder than simply "random raids." There was, for example, the unified Borderlander defeat of the shadowspawn at the Gap after the fall of Malkier. And one would think that people living a few hundred miles away would remember the destruction by trollocs of an entire nation, easily within living memory. If Labrador had been utterly destroyed by trollocs 50 years ago, I rather doubt people in my neighborhood would have forgotten, to the point of considering trollocs to be mythological.

 

2. A considerable number of the German forces in 1940 were non-mechanized infantry. It's true; many of the Germans actually walked into France. Static defenses can be flanked. A trolloc moves a good deal faster than a wall. Tactics based on mobility and maneuver do not depend on particular weaponry, so the lack of rifles in no way invalidates the comparison.

 

3. Tarwin's Gap was the main pass between two allied nations until, what, 50 years ago? There was no need for a fortification until the fall of Malkier, so it is really not true that there have been thousands of years to build fortifications. Furthermore, the Borderlanders WANT the trollocs to come through Tarwin's Gap. Better to know where they will be coming. I imagine the same applies to the pass north of Maradon.

 

4. The defenses aren't "weak." They have held for thousands of years. The Saldaean Upper and Lower camps and the Kandori watch tower system are both very clever defensive systems.

[navahgar]

Also, whilst I agree with the general sentiment that the people and nations in the WoT frequently act in confusing and ineffective ways, I think you are being unfair on the borderlanders here. The paucity of organized defenses is Ishamael's greatest success, and why he has clearly been the most effective Forsaken. Every time the nations began organizing together, and therefore threatening to create unified defenses against the shadow, Ishamael destroyed that unification, either from within or without.

[GregDietzFla]

Also, whilst I agree with the general sentiment that the people and nations in the WoT frequently act in confusing and ineffective ways, I think you are being unfair on the borderlanders here. The paucity of organized defenses is Ishamael's greatest success, and why he has clearly been the most effective Forsaken. Every time the nations began organizing together, and therefore threatening to create unified defenses against the shadow, Ishamael destroyed that unification, either from within or without.

 

Ishy is probabally the best reason i have heard, so i'm gunna go with that. Explains it, while showing at least someone of the shadow being competent at something. I like it. Thanks.

[ajfurst]

Also, whilst I agree with the general sentiment that the people and nations in the WoT frequently act in confusing and ineffective ways, I think you are being unfair on the borderlanders here. The paucity of organized defenses is Ishamael's greatest success, and why he has clearly been the most effective Forsaken. Every time the nations began organizing together, and therefore threatening to create unified defenses against the shadow, Ishamael destroyed that unification, either from within or without.

Ishamael wasn't completely free all the time. A good 20 year stretch would have allowed some significant defensive building beyond what they've done. Though I blame the Aes Sedai more. Even if they were unwilling to go into the Blight, sending a DECENT number of Aes Sedai to the Borderlands to help defend them whilst they construct defensive positions shouldn't have been too taxing. And help construct them - as Elaida noted when building her palace it doesn't take much strength to bind stone with the Power. The Aes Sedai could have helped make the borderlands a much stronger shield. Since the Trolloc Wars the Aes Sedai have done 9/10's of jack all to help stop the Shadow where it matters in the borderlands.

[navahgar]

Also, whilst I agree with the general sentiment that the people and nations in the WoT frequently act in confusing and ineffective ways, I think you are being unfair on the borderlanders here. The paucity of organized defenses is Ishamael's greatest success, and why he has clearly been the most effective Forsaken. Every time the nations began organizing together, and therefore threatening to create unified defenses against the shadow, Ishamael destroyed that unification, either from within or without.

Ishamael wasn't completely free all the time. A good 20 year stretch would have allowed some significant defensive building beyond what they've done. Though I blame the Aes Sedai more. Even if they were unwilling to go into the Blight, sending a DECENT number of Aes Sedai to the Borderlands to help defend them whilst they construct defensive positions shouldn't have been too taxing. And help construct them - as Elaida noted when building her palace it doesn't take much strength to bind stone with the Power. The Aes Sedai could have helped make the borderlands a much stronger shield. Since the Trolloc Wars the Aes Sedai have done 9/10's of jack all to help stop the Shadow where it matters in the borderlands.

 

At the risk of sounding like an apologist, the failure of the Aes Sedai might also be attributed to the influence of the Black Ajah, who were set up by Ishamael.

[Callern]

Isnt Tarwin's Gap, inside the Blight?

I allways thought that the Sheinarans went out to meet the Trollocs, before the shadow could ley siege on the fortifications and cities etc. So they meet them in Tarwin's Gap, inside the blight.

Just because RJ and BS hasn't shown us so many fortifications yet, does not mean that they are not there.

And keeping a wall INSIDE the blight, with a guard post and all, would not be a very good idea.

[Thorum]

The Borderland nations aren't a single unbroken wall of countries standing against the Blight, they're what's left after nation after nation that orginally was on the border got wiped out and this is what's left, like Malkier having been between Shienar and the Blight. So they really haven't had all that long to build these ever lasting and impregnable defenses, they're just scrambling to hold back the Blight as much as possible now that the responsibility's been thrust on them

 

Malkier is the only one that crumbled. Which means Kandor, Arafel and Saldaea (or their predecessors) have been borderland-nations for 2000 years. And still are.

[Agelmar]

Fortifications are useless without garrisons. The Borderlanders could only do so much, because they could only afford so large a standing army.

 

Now taking the bulk of their armies and leaving the Borderlands to go hunt for the Dragon Reborn, THAT was stupid.

[moroten]

1. There has been a good deal more activity along the Blightborder than simply "random raids." There was, for example, the unified Borderlander defeat of the shadowspawn at the Gap after the fall of Malkier. And one would think that people living a few hundred miles away would remember the destruction by trollocs of an entire nation, easily within living memory. If Labrador had been utterly destroyed by trollocs 50 years ago, I rather doubt people in my neighborhood would have forgotten, to the point of considering trollocs to be mythological.

 

2. A considerable number of the German forces in 1940 were non-mechanized infantry. It's true; many of the Germans actually walked into France. Static defenses can be flanked. A trolloc moves a good deal faster than a wall. Tactics based on mobility and maneuver do not depend on particular weaponry, so the lack of rifles in no way invalidates the comparison.

 

3. Tarwin's Gap was the main pass between two allied nations until, what, 50 years ago? There was no need for a fortification until the fall of Malkier, so it is really not true that there have been thousands of years to build fortifications. Furthermore, the Borderlanders WANT the trollocs to come through Tarwin's Gap. Better to know where they will be coming. I imagine the same applies to the pass north of Maradon.

 

4. The defenses aren't "weak." They have held for thousands of years. The Saldaean Upper and Lower camps and the Kandori watch tower system are both very clever defensive systems.

 

German troops were mechanized to some extent in the Blitzkrieg to easily move around static enemy forces to cut off communication and reinforcements and such. But what made Blitzkrieg so effective wasnt the mobility of the army but rather the authority officers had in the German army. They could make the decisions on spot rather than wait an infinite time for getting the green light from the big leader. The Chain of command was very evolved in the German army, and that was their key to success, dunkurque is another matter tho so dont bring that up as an argument towards this.

 

On the matter tho. Yes one might think that the Borderlands should have stronger and bigger defences, but considering they only have had like 40 years to build them up(malkiere covered them all before that) I would say they have done a good enough job. Add to this that we know nothing of their income and natural resources, when merchants talk about wares I dont think I have ever heard of a borderland resourcse that seem in high demand, except maybe pepper from Kandor.

 

When it comes to Tarwin's gap, if Im not mistaken thats in the blight these days isnt it? If it is, you dont want to build defences in the actual blight, thats asking for problems. If its not the in the blight and I remember wrong, just ignore this last passage ^^.

[randsc]

1. There has been a good deal more activity along the Blightborder than simply "random raids." There was, for example, the unified Borderlander defeat of the shadowspawn at the Gap after the fall of Malkier. And one would think that people living a few hundred miles away would remember the destruction by trollocs of an entire nation, easily within living memory. If Labrador had been utterly destroyed by trollocs 50 years ago, I rather doubt people in my neighborhood would have forgotten, to the point of considering trollocs to be mythological.

 

2. A considerable number of the German forces in 1940 were non-mechanized infantry. It's true; many of the Germans actually walked into France. Static defenses can be flanked. A trolloc moves a good deal faster than a wall. Tactics based on mobility and maneuver do not depend on particular weaponry, so the lack of rifles in no way invalidates the comparison.

 

3. Tarwin's Gap was the main pass between two allied nations until, what, 50 years ago? There was no need for a fortification until the fall of Malkier, so it is really not true that there have been thousands of years to build fortifications. Furthermore, the Borderlanders WANT the trollocs to come through Tarwin's Gap. Better to know where they will be coming. I imagine the same applies to the pass north of Maradon.

 

4. The defenses aren't "weak." They have held for thousands of years. The Saldaean Upper and Lower camps and the Kandori watch tower system are both very clever defensive systems.

 

German troops were mechanized to some extent in the Blitzkrieg to easily move around static enemy forces to cut off communication and reinforcements and such. But what made Blitzkrieg so effective wasnt the mobility of the army but rather the authority officers had in the German army. They could make the decisions on spot rather than wait an infinite time for getting the green light from the big leader. The Chain of command was very evolved in the German army, and that was their key to success, dunkurque is another matter tho so dont bring that up as an argument towards this.

 

On the matter tho. Yes one might think that the Borderlands should have stronger and bigger defences, but considering they only have had like 40 years to build them up(malkiere covered them all before that) I would say they have done a good enough job. Add to this that we know nothing of their income and natural resources, when merchants talk about wares I dont think I have ever heard of a borderland resourcse that seem in high demand, except maybe pepper from Kandor.

 

When it comes to Tarwin's gap, if Im not mistaken thats in the blight these days isnt it? If it is, you dont want to build defences in the actual blight, thats asking for problems. If its not the in the blight and I remember wrong, just ignore this last passage ^^.

 

This is a reply to me? Because it looks like we basically agree.

[Hopefire]

 

I assume you are talking about the German invasion of France, in which case, i am finding it hard to draw a comparision. Which of the shadows forces are the panzer units. Where did they find rifles? (Not trying to be condesending, but the weaponry available invalidates this comparison).

 

Definitely a bad comparison, because there's no way for the Trollocs to move entire armies behind the lines as fast or faster than the Germans did in France!

 

Oh, wait...

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The Borderland nations are neither large nor wealthy. They have fought a continual war against the Shadow for 3000 YEARS, and done so so well that people a couple of hundred miles to the south believed until recently that trollocs and fades were myths. All in all, they're remarkable people, easily the most admirable in Randland.

 

As for the idea of finding safety behind walls and fortifications, I would draw your attention to France, May of 1940.

 

If you want to blame someone for the lack of preparedness for the Last Battle, I would nominate the spoiled and decadent Southlands.

 

 

[Removed for being offensive and rude]. My great-grandfather served in the 16th Army during the Battle for France. He stated that there was a distinct attitude difference. The German lines were completely energetic, full of adrenaline, filled with anger about Versailles/Ruhr occupation/Saar occupation/etc.. and the ironclad belief that they had to defend the Fatherland. Morale couldn't be much higher.

 

Whereas on the French side I believe over a million surrendered in the first few weeks alone. My great-grandfathers unit was also flooded with men simply walking towards the army on a road with their rifles held above their heads to show their pacifistic intent.

 

The difference was that the French population was strictly against a war with Germany, remembering the years of 1914-1918. The politicians were oblivious to the desires and views of the people and so forced an inevitable outcome. The French government declared war on Germany in 1939 and started drafting men from their families and homes. Most of these French men couldn't be bothered to fight Germany over Poland. The average Frenchman didn't care two dimes about starting a war of aggression against Germany over the Polish. Remember the French declared war on Germany and occupied part of the Saar prior to the Siegfried line, so for the German soldiers it was a matter of defending the homeland. For the French soldiers it was a useless war of aggression lead by arrogant politicians who didn't care one bit for their lives, all due to some nation called Poland which most could not even place on a map. This lead to a situation where the minute the German counter-attack arrived the entire French line collapsed and there were mass surrenders. That's mostly what lost them the conflict and is still a controversial topic today in France.

[randsc]

The Borderland nations are neither large nor wealthy. They have fought a continual war against the Shadow for 3000 YEARS, and done so so well that people a couple of hundred miles to the south believed until recently that trollocs and fades were myths. All in all, they're remarkable people, easily the most admirable in Randland.

 

As for the idea of finding safety behind walls and fortifications, I would draw your attention to France, May of 1940.

 

If you want to blame someone for the lack of preparedness for the Last Battle, I would nominate the spoiled and decadent Southlands.

 

 

[Removed for being offensive and rude]. My great-grandfather served in the 16th Army during the Battle for France. He stated that there was a distinct attitude difference. The German lines were completely energetic, full of adrenaline, filled with anger about Versailles/Ruhr occupation/Saar occupation/etc.. and the ironclad belief that they had to defend the Fatherland. Morale couldn't be much higher.

 

Whereas on the French side I believe over a million surrendered in the first few weeks alone. My great-grandfathers unit was also flooded with men simply walking towards the army on a road with their rifles held above their heads to show their pacifistic intent.

 

The difference was that the French population was strictly against a war with Germany, remembering the years of 1914-1918. The politicians were oblivious to the desires and views of the people and so forced an inevitable outcome. The French government declared war on Germany in 1939 and started drafting men from their families and homes. Most of these French men couldn't be bothered to fight Germany over Poland. The average Frenchman didn't care two dimes about starting a war of aggression against Germany over the Polish. Remember the French declared war on Germany and occupied part of the Saar prior to the Siegfried line, so for the German soldiers it was a matter of defending the homeland. For the French soldiers it was a useless war of aggression lead by arrogant politicians who didn't care one bit for their lives, all due to some nation called Poland which most could not even place on a map. This lead to a situation where the minute the German counter-attack arrived the entire French line collapsed and there were mass surrenders. That's mostly what lost them the conflict and is still a controversial topic today in France.

 

 

What does that have to do with trollocs in the Borderlands?

 

The fact remains, no wall will make the Borderlands safe. Static defenses can always be flanked. And as Hopefire alludes above, walls are a particularly stupid thing to stake your defense on in a world with Traveling and Ways.

 

As for the French, "War of Aggression" on Germany, France was honoring its treaty committments. It's a good thing for France that other nations did the same, eh?

[moroten]

1. There has been a good deal more activity along the Blightborder than simply "random raids." There was, for example, the unified Borderlander defeat of the shadowspawn at the Gap after the fall of Malkier. And one would think that people living a few hundred miles away would remember the destruction by trollocs of an entire nation, easily within living memory. If Labrador had been utterly destroyed by trollocs 50 years ago, I rather doubt people in my neighborhood would have forgotten, to the point of considering trollocs to be mythological.

 

2. A considerable number of the German forces in 1940 were non-mechanized infantry. It's true; many of the Germans actually walked into France. Static defenses can be flanked. A trolloc moves a good deal faster than a wall. Tactics based on mobility and maneuver do not depend on particular weaponry, so the lack of rifles in no way invalidates the comparison.

 

3. Tarwin's Gap was the main pass between two allied nations until, what, 50 years ago? There was no need for a fortification until the fall of Malkier, so it is really not true that there have been thousands of years to build fortifications. Furthermore, the Borderlanders WANT the trollocs to come through Tarwin's Gap. Better to know where they will be coming. I imagine the same applies to the pass north of Maradon.

 

4. The defenses aren't "weak." They have held for thousands of years. The Saldaean Upper and Lower camps and the Kandori watch tower system are both very clever defensive systems.

 

German troops were mechanized to some extent in the Blitzkrieg to easily move around static enemy forces to cut off communication and reinforcements and such. But what made Blitzkrieg so effective wasnt the mobility of the army but rather the authority officers had in the German army. They could make the decisions on spot rather than wait an infinite time for getting the green light from the big leader. The Chain of command was very evolved in the German army, and that was their key to success, dunkurque is another matter tho so dont bring that up as an argument towards this.

 

On the matter tho. Yes one might think that the Borderlands should have stronger and bigger defences, but considering they only have had like 40 years to build them up(malkiere covered them all before that) I would say they have done a good enough job. Add to this that we know nothing of their income and natural resources, when merchants talk about wares I dont think I have ever heard of a borderland resourcse that seem in high demand, except maybe pepper from Kandor.

 

When it comes to Tarwin's gap, if Im not mistaken thats in the blight these days isnt it? If it is, you dont want to build defences in the actual blight, thats asking for problems. If its not the in the blight and I remember wrong, just ignore this last passage ^^.

 

This is a reply to me? Because it looks like we basically agree.

 

We do :D. I just clarified with the aid of your points! :P

[randsc]

The Borderland nations aren't a single unbroken wall of countries standing against the Blight, they're what's left after nation after nation that orginally was on the border got wiped out and this is what's left, like Malkier having been between Shienar and the Blight. So they really haven't had all that long to build these ever lasting and impregnable defenses, they're just scrambling to hold back the Blight as much as possible now that the responsibility's been thrust on them

 

Malkier is the only one that crumbled. Which means Kandor, Arafel and Saldaea (or their predecessors) have been borderland-nations for 2000 years. And still are.

 

Does anyone have a copy of tEotW handy? Can you turn to Chapter 47, and see how Agelmar describes the boudaries of Malkier? Because I am pretty sure that the post I am quoting is wrong. Arafel, at the very least, was also south of Malkier.

 

The quote I am thinking of goes something like, "We of Shienar think of ourselves as Borderlanders, but until recently..."

 

He's basically saying that the current Borderland nations weren't actually on the border until the fall of Malkier.

[moratcorlm]

“We of Shienar call ourselves Bordermen, but fewer than fifty years ago, Shienar was not truly of the Borderlands. North of us, and of Arafel, was Malkier. The lances of Shienar rode north, but it was Malkier that held back the Blight. Malkier, Peace favor her memory, and the Light illumine her name.”

[randsc]

Nevermind, I found it on-line:

 

“We of Shienar call ourselves Bordermen, but fewer than fifty years ago, Shienar was not truly of the Borderlands. North of us, and of Arafel, was Malkier. The lances of Shienar rode north, but it was Malkier that held back the Blight. Malkier, Peace favor her memory, and the Light illumine her name.”

 

So Arafel and Sheinar have only had 50 years, not thousands, and Salaea and Kandor do in fact have significant fortifications in place.

 

The Borderlanders have done all they can. They even keep sending tribute to the White Tower, in spite of that organization's unwillingness or inability to do anything of much help.

 

Meanwhile, the Southlands slumber, oblivious, growing wealthy and comfortable while better men die to protect them. Peasants in the Two Rivers and a thousand similar places can be excused, because they simply don't know what is going on. The rulers of the southern nations have no such excuse. They know perfectly well that trollocs are real, and the Borderlands hard-pressed. And yet they spend their time on Daes Dae'mar, and their money on silks and jewels.

 

It isn't the Borderlanders who are stupid.

[randsc]

“We of Shienar call ourselves Bordermen, but fewer than fifty years ago, Shienar was not truly of the Borderlands. North of us, and of Arafel, was Malkier. The lances of Shienar rode north, but it was Malkier that held back the Blight. Malkier, Peace favor her memory, and the Light illumine her name.”

 

Too quick for me. Thanks.

[yoniy0]

Add that to the fact that the Germans went around, not through, the Maginot Line, and the comparison is a complete flop.

As Hopefire Reminds us, and can be seen near the end of ToM, the Shadow has its own methods to flank rivaling powers.

 

 

Malkier is the only one that crumbled. Which means Kandor, Arafel and Saldaea (or their predecessors) have been borderland-nations for 2000 years. And still are.

2000 is an improvement to what was earlier said, but no. The nations we know today came into existence after the fall of Hawkwing's empire. Less than a thousand years, and they had to pick the pieces of the War or 100 years, solidify their rule of the area, and fend off constant (though low-intensity) attacks. That's really not that much time, when you think of it.

 

 

As an aside, I never thought to read someone describing the German invasion of France as 'defending the Fatherland'. I'd think that most Germans would join the rest of the Western world in condemning the actions of the so-called Third Reich.

[anotherfingolfin]

2000 is an improvement to what was earlier said, but no. The nations we know today came into existence after the fall of Hawkwing's empire. Less than a thousand years, and they had to pick the pieces of the War or 100 years, solidify their rule of the area, and fend off constant (though low-intensity) attacks. That's really not that much time, when you think of it.

Yeah, this. And add to all of this the fact that the blight has not been static. The geographical extent of the blight has changed over the years, such that a wall built on the blight border 200 years ago may well be within the blight in the present time.

 

As an aside, I never thought to read someone describing the German invasion of France as 'defending the Fatherland'. I'd think that most Germans would join the rest of the Western world in condemning the actions of the so-called Third Reich.

But as France started hostilities with Germany, that is exactly how you average German soldier would have seen it, at least initially. Are you saying that you are surprised that someone would call it like it is, or that you had never even thought of it in that way?