The Horn and the Seanchan

[ltmundida]

A thought has just occured to me as I was rereading TGH. Rand could get the Seanchan to follow him by getting Mat to blow the Horn and showing Tuon that Hawkwing is on his side. The Seanchan seem to worship Hawkwing and nothing would carry weight with them more than his word.

It is just speculative and probably wont happern or there would have been a dream or some prophesy in that direction.

[Ashandarei]

A thought has just occured to me as I was rereading TGH. Rand could get the Seanchan to follow him by getting Mat to blow the Horn and showing Tuon that Hawkwing is on his side. The Seanchan seem to worship Hawkwing and nothing would carry weight with them more than his word.

It is just speculative and probably wont happern or there would have been a dream or some prophesy in that direction.

 

That would be logical and rational boots. WHY would anyone in WoT do that. WHY.

 

Also, in a WoT where that did happen, Tuon would flat out dismiss it as a trick of the power.

[moratcorlm]

Mat is the "center of all" for that, not Rand. I suspect that it will be Mat's initiative that will lead to the Dragon-Seanchan alliance after the EVA recovers the Horn from the Tower basement. Mat blows it, Tuon receives Justice as a symbol of the bargain, etc.

[Mats Spare Hat]

When the heroes are summoned by the horn, they're bound to serve whoever blows the horn.

 

Hawkwing: Tuon, you should go along with these folks

Tuon: How'd you get here??

Hawkwing: I've been summoned, and am bound to serve whoever blows the horn

Tuon's Best Akbar Impersonation: It's a trap!

 

...As to say any sort of inherent credibility gets thrown out the window, when it involves the hitch of having to do what the hornblower wants, regardless of who that person is - even if they could be the nicest most responsible person in the world.

 

If Hawkwing were summoned for that sort of task with all the good intentions in the world, he'd still be doing what you asked because he has to, is forced to, and that can suck all your good intentions out of the room, and create an even worse situation for yourself at a negotiating table. Going further, you could guess that Tuon wouldn't be pleased at all to find out you're forcing the progenitor of the Seanchan empire to do your bidding, whatever your intentions, good or bad, for doing so in the first place.

[moratcorlm]

The Heroes are forced to fight for whoever blows the Horn (which Tuon, in fact, already seems to know); I'm not at all sure they can be forced to perform diplomatic negotiations. They clearly have their own souls and personalities.

[Mandro]

I think the quote from ToM "I thought I was a weapon, I'm not, I never was Min, I know that now." which suits the Matt wins the LB thing in a way. Rand is just there to be a stop gap allowing for Men to actually defeat the shadow. I think that was a forshadowing of rand starting to recognize his real purpose, though I don't think so. A lot of the imagery of Rand is that of Tyr who is the God of single combat, so rand isn't a weapon, he is an avatar of light meant to face the dark. I don't know how much rand will have to do with the battle part of the last battle, I think it will be ancillary while rand waits for the moment to strike at the dark.

[Erunion]

Everybody says that the heroes will fight for whoever blows the horn, but if we look at when the horn is actually blown, they are unwilling to charge until Al'thor raises the Dragon Banner and leads them into combat.

 

Interesting, no?

[Ashandarei]

Everybody says that the heroes will fight for whoever blows the horn, but if we look at when the horn is actually blown, they are unwilling to charge until Al'thor raises the Dragon Banner and leads them into combat.

 

Interesting, no?

 

My thoughts exactly.

[Mandro]

I don't know the words, but I think hawkwing actually said that It was "Just right." I don't have the early books at hand. It was the Dragon who called, because matt served Rand at the time, so Hawkwing wanted to know WHO he followed. But that is really nitpicking.

[Mats Spare Hat]

I re-read 'The Grave is no Bar to my Call" chapter bit:

 

The Horn, according to what Hawkwing Says:

 

1.) Calls the Heroes.

2.) The Heroes must follow the Dragon Banner, and the Dragon.

 

That being said, it still binds up the concept that Tuon should believe in Hawkwing because of who he is. Instead of what I said earlier, I was mistaken, he's bound specifically (in the case of the horn) to follow the Banner & Dragon - in this case Rand.

 

So, that being the case, there's still that sense that you could mistrust the aims of a summoned hero, like Hawkwing, because he's apparently mandated to follow the wants and needs of the Dragon.

 

Hawkwing: Tuon, do it to it

Tuon: What makes you say that?

Hawkwing: I have to, he wants it *points thumb towards Rand

Tuon: BBBBoooooo, no dice.

[fikkie77]

One of the insciptions on the Horn is: "Let he who sounds me think not of glory, but of salvation."

 

Just proving the Seanchan wrong isn't actually not thinking of glory. The Prince of Ravens won't be needing salvation from the Seanchan.

Mat wouldn't use the Horn for this and I doubt the heroes would even show up.

[Finnssss22]

There's definitely something about the Horn and the Seachan yet to be revealed.

Something separate from the Dragon.

 

Remember Tuon in KoD chpt 8 when she wonders whether The Dragon Reborn was the one that blew the Horn at Falme and Mat almost chokes heh.

 

That definitely indicates a separate Seanchan Prophecy involving them and the Horn sounder.

[asha man]

I re-read 'The Grave is no Bar to my Call" chapter bit:

 

The Horn, according to what Hawkwing Says:

 

1.) Calls the Heroes.

2.) The Heroes must follow the Dragon Banner, and the Dragon.

 

That being said, it still binds up the concept that Tuon should believe in Hawkwing because of who he is. Instead of what I said earlier, I was mistaken, he's bound specifically (in the case of the horn) to follow the Banner & Dragon - in this case Rand.

 

So, that being the case, there's still that sense that you could mistrust the aims of a summoned hero, like Hawkwing, because he's apparently mandated to follow the wants and needs of the Dragon.

 

Hawkwing: Tuon, do it to it

Tuon: What makes you say that?

Hawkwing: I have to, he wants it *points thumb towards Rand

Tuon: BBBBoooooo, no dice.

 

 

Or more like:

 

Hawkwing: Tuon, do it to it.

Tuon: OH MY GOD IT'S HAWKWING!!!! (like a 12 year old girl at the Jonas Brothers concert, followed by groveling on the floor)

Hawkwing: Uh, this is embarrassing.

Tuon: I've embarrassing the great and powerful Hawkwing! My eyes are lowered forever. I must kill myself in apology.

[Mandro]

One of the insciptions on the Horn is: "Let he who sounds me think not of glory, but of salvation."

 

Just proving the Seanchan wrong isn't actually not thinking of glory. The Prince of Ravens won't be needing salvation from the Seanchan.

Mat wouldn't use the Horn for this and I doubt the heroes would even show up.

Well that is obvious, the LB is coming, TG is on the horrizon, it's why matt had to race off to rescue moiraine NOW before the LB is imminent. He isn't needed for the building of the dragons, he isn't necessary for the training of troops, he isn't necessary until the clarion calls, so until then he had to make a choice, do I follow verin, or do I follow Moiraine, and while Matt hates the ASPECT of aes sedai, he doesn't hat AS, and the only one he trusts, Like rand, is Moiraine, (who I see parallels with in Nynaeve, Moiraine would never challenge her decision to be stilled for the RIGHT that she is serving, as she briefly mentioned in TGH)

 

Not to mention, I think, I didn't believe this back in '94 on the alt nets, but I do now, duh, about jordans attachment to nordic lore. Perrin is Thor, one of the gods of war, but thors specialty is evil particular the eternal serpent, that's an interesting thing, will perrin fight TV? Oden is the god of War, in fact, THE god of war, who wields all the might of all the gods against ragnarok, and that is Matt, (that is why I say matt is better than hawkwing) and rand is Tyr, the god of single battle, the one handed god who lost his hand, and learned to fight again only greater (you can also see a bit of this trick in The Song of Fire and Ice (that is the original name, it was changed later, to "Ice and Fire.")

 

It's hard to say based on that foundational mythology that one of the 3 TV TR friends won't fall. In mythos, Thor dies, I don't think that will happen in this series. I think that Davrams niece wil die, she deserves it the self rightous punk, same with Gawyn and egwene, Hope they die. Punks to the end, and wrong to the end. But the mythos of the 3 TV's is Nordic, and CLEAR!

[moratcorlm]

Everybody says that the heroes will fight for whoever blows the horn, but if we look at when the horn is actually blown, they are unwilling to charge until Al'thor raises the Dragon Banner and leads them into combat.

 

Interesting, no?

There's no indication that's always the case, and in fact Hawkwing's claim to have "faced [the Dragon] times beyond number" seems to rule against the notion that that is always the case. The Pattern-Level Event at Falme (the next chapter's title is "First Claiming") had certain requirements that you can't suppose will be repeated for the next time the Horn is blown: "The weave of this moment is set."

[Mandro]

One of the insciptions on the Horn is: "Let he who sounds me think not of glory, but of salvation."

 

Just proving the Seanchan wrong isn't actually not thinking of glory. The Prince of Ravens won't be needing salvation from the Seanchan.

Mat wouldn't use the Horn for this and I doubt the heroes would even show up.

 

good point, and also proves the "matt isn't attached to the horn" wrong.

[Erunion]

Everybody says that the heroes will fight for whoever blows the horn, but if we look at when the horn is actually blown, they are unwilling to charge until Al'thor raises the Dragon Banner and leads them into combat.

 

Interesting, no?

There's no indication that's always the case, and in fact Hawkwing's claim to have "faced [the Dragon] times beyond number" seems to rule against the notion that that is always the case. The Pattern-Level Event at Falme (the next chapter's title is "First Claiming") had certain requirements that you can't suppose will be repeated for the next time the Horn is blown: "The weave of this moment is set."

 

Fair point. Of course, Hawkwing could have faced the Dragon when Hawkwing was actually alive, and not summoned by the Horn.

 

However, because of how closely they are tied to the pattern, I'm still not convinced that they could serve the DO even if summoned to do so. There's also the salvation line on the inscription (paraphrased; let he who sounds me think not of glory but of salvation), and my gut tells me that brings the potential usage by the dark down to a very, very small chance (while non-zero, small enough to be mathematically considered impossible, something that will never happen).

 

While I wouldn't be terribly surprised if a darkfriend could blow the horn, I would be surprised if they were then able to effectively use the heroes.

[moratcorlm]

That salvation line was from the Prophecy of the Horn (TGH5), which means it actually means something. The inscription is just a piece of melodrama that was carved in the Age of Legends. That said, considering that the end of the world is imminent, I'd think any attempt at bringing in allies via diplomacy would qualify.

 

There are some interesting quotations about the Horn here, in the Interview Database, for those who haven't happened across it.

[Erunion]

Thanks for the link moratcorlm, good resource.

 

Now (not that it's particularly relevant, considering Mat's link to the horn and his slim chance of dieing before the LB, but still, it's interesting), what do you think would happen if a Darkfriend blew the horn? What would happen if a Darkfriend blew the horn and tried to have the heroes attack Rand?

[haloun]

aparently a rift, schism, void, etc...

[Durinax]

technically he could blow it for salvation if he believed hard enough that the negotiations could be the salvation of the world