Was a Forsaken 13/13d?

[jemron]

We know so little about how the 13/13 works where a channeler is "forced to the DO" by 13 Aes Sedai and 13 Fades, but what if one or more of the Forsaken was/is 13/13d?

 

We know that being 13d basically removes or suppresses all the good in a person, and enhances/brings forward a person's bad habits/qualities. So, I know Lews Therin has always thought that Lanfear was a bit of a power (Power?) hungry person, but is it possible that she's even MORE that way now because of being 13d? I dunno, something about Cyndane's expression in the end of ToM makes me think maybe it's her good side trying to get through in T'A'R.

 

Is it possible that the good side of a person is still there, down deep? Maybe even more prevalent in the World of Dreams? Rand's Aiel vision in Rhuidean basically made Mieren out to be a "good mistress" by that one Aiel dude. Would she really have turned to the DO intentionally?

 

This is a bit of a rambly post, but hopefully I got the point across...

[Haldir1980]

Her...no, she is pure evil! Enviuos power hungry neurotic crazy b...h!!! :) This is my opinion :) I dont think any of the Forsaken were 13d as they invented the process! i think it was Semi!!

[Ashandarei]

No I'm pretty sure none of the Forsaken were turned that way, they all voluntarily went to the Shadow. It's even stated why each of them did so and what they were before betraying the Light in "The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time."

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

We know so little about how the 13/13 works where a channeler is "forced to the DO" by 13 Aes Sedai and 13 Fades, but what if one or more of the Forsaken was/is 13/13d?

 

It's unlikely that Mierin was 13x13ed. I was beginning to think that myself after reading ToM, but then somebody showed me this RJ quote:

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

(Source: Theoryland Database.)

 

Importantly, RJ didn't outright deny the theory. But he wasn't usually the type to make explicit declarations like that. He implied pretty strongly that she came to the Shadow of her own free will. Either he was misleading us deliberately, or he was just being his usual self by giving an answer without being explicit.

 

I think it'd be better for the story if she had been 13x13ed. That'd be really interesting. Alas, it seems not to be likely.

[Terez]

I don't think you can hide people who have been turned to the Shadow in that way. The effects are really obvious.

[Byzantine279]

Its hard to know that for sure, Terez, since we have not seen a single person who we can outright prove was 13X13 (there is a debate over what is going on at the black tower, but neither side has proof, only theories).

[capuga]

Its hard to know that for sure, Terez, since we have not seen a single person who we can outright prove was 13X13 (there is a debate over what is going on at the black tower, but neither side has proof, only theories).

 

True, but I personally would be absolutely shocked if Tarna was not 13x13ed. And her change in personality and demeaner was immediately apparent to the other Aes Sedai whose name I am blanking out on.

[herid]

Its hard to know that for sure, Terez, since we have not seen a single person who we can outright prove was 13X13 (there is a debate over what is going on at the black tower, but neither side has proof, only theories).

 

True, but I personally would be absolutely shocked if Tarna was not 13x13ed. And her change in personality and demeaner was immediately apparent to the other Aes Sedai whose name I am blanking out on.

that was Pevara. yes, I agree on Tarna. It's really quite sad. I liked her a lot in KoD. the whole 13x13 thing is quite disconcerting because it's a one way street to the dark side with no possibility of return. what happened to the whole idea that "noone can walk so long in the shadow that they can not come back to the light"? It would be more fair if the process was reversible, perhaps by some kind of healing, similar to what Nyn did to heal madness and/or compulsion.

[capuga]

Its hard to know that for sure, Terez, since we have not seen a single person who we can outright prove was 13X13 (there is a debate over what is going on at the black tower, but neither side has proof, only theories).

 

True, but I personally would be absolutely shocked if Tarna was not 13x13ed. And her change in personality and demeaner was immediately apparent to the other Aes Sedai whose name I am blanking out on.

that was Pevara. yes, I agree on Tarna. It's really quite sad. I liked her a lot in KoD. the whole 13x13 thing is quite disconcerting because it's a one way street to the dark side with no possibility of return. what happened to the whole idea that "noone can walk so long in the shadow that they can not come back to the light"? It would be more fair if the process was reversible, perhaps by some kind of healing, similar to what Nyn did to heal madness and/or compulsion.

 

Thank you! That was driving me nuts.

 

Isn't there an RJ quote that says it would be very hard for someone 13x13ed to turn back to the light (because they wouldn't want to) without help? This implies that it is not impossible. However, I think this is unlikely. And for all the people that complain that RJ doesn't kill off any of the good guys - Tarna being turned is just as tragic.

[Monte]

Its hard to know that for sure, Terez, since we have not seen a single person who we can outright prove was 13X13 (there is a debate over what is going on at the black tower, but neither side has proof, only theories).

 

True, but I personally would be absolutely shocked if Tarna was not 13x13ed. And her change in personality and demeaner was immediately apparent to the other Aes Sedai whose name I am blanking out on.

that was Pevara. yes, I agree on Tarna. It's really quite sad. I liked her a lot in KoD. the whole 13x13 thing is quite disconcerting because it's a one way street to the dark side with no possibility of return. what happened to the whole idea that "noone can walk so long in the shadow that they can not come back to the light"? It would be more fair if the process was reversible, perhaps by some kind of healing, similar to what Nyn did to heal madness and/or compulsion.

 

Thank you! That was driving me nuts.

 

Isn't there an RJ quote that says it would be very hard for someone 13x13ed to turn back to the light (because they wouldn't want to) without help? This implies that it is not impossible. However, I think this is unlikely. And for all the people that complain that RJ doesn't kill off any of the good guys - Tarna being turned is just as tragic.

 

I agree guys that's what I feel is going on with Tarna as well, unless it is just normal compulsion.

[herid]

Its hard to know that for sure, Terez, since we have not seen a single person who we can outright prove was 13X13 (there is a debate over what is going on at the black tower, but neither side has proof, only theories).

 

True, but I personally would be absolutely shocked if Tarna was not 13x13ed. And her change in personality and demeaner was immediately apparent to the other Aes Sedai whose name I am blanking out on.

that was Pevara. yes, I agree on Tarna. It's really quite sad. I liked her a lot in KoD. the whole 13x13 thing is quite disconcerting because it's a one way street to the dark side with no possibility of return. what happened to the whole idea that "noone can walk so long in the shadow that they can not come back to the light"? It would be more fair if the process was reversible, perhaps by some kind of healing, similar to what Nyn did to heal madness and/or compulsion.

 

Thank you! That was driving me nuts.

 

Isn't there an RJ quote that says it would be very hard for someone 13x13ed to turn back to the light (because they wouldn't want to) without help? This implies that it is not impossible. However, I think this is unlikely. And for all the people that complain that RJ doesn't kill off any of the good guys - Tarna being turned is just as tragic.

 

you certainly have good memory. I think you mean this

 

Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

I've seen this quote before but I forgot the "unaided" bit. I wonder exactly what kind of aid is required here.

[Ashandarei]

I really hope that in AMoL we get to see the actual 13x13 turning process from the PoV of one of the Black sisters so we can witness it happening instead of only the results. It would be really cool to witness. Also I hope it's from the BA PoV instead of the person being turned since most of the weaves would go unseen if one was being turned since I doubt they're very coherent during the process.

[OptimusPrime]

Im fairly sure Semirhage was the one who discovered the 13x13 ritual so if any of them was turned I dont think she was one of them. I dont think Lanfear was, mostly because she seems like one of the originals and partly because RJ said she was ripe for the Shadows picking way before she discovered the True Power, that to me makes it sound like she turned to the Shadow for worship of power alone, not because she was forced. Moridin, no way, not in the slightest. Just no.

 

Demandred seems like the most likely case to me. If he was, I would consider forgiving him for a lot of things.

[jemron]

We know so little about how the 13/13 works where a channeler is "forced to the DO" by 13 Aes Sedai and 13 Fades, but what if one or more of the Forsaken was/is 13/13d?

 

It's unlikely that Mierin was 13x13ed. I was beginning to think that myself after reading ToM, but then somebody showed me this RJ quote:

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

(Source: Theoryland Database.)

 

Importantly, RJ didn't outright deny the theory. But he wasn't usually the type to make explicit declarations like that. He implied pretty strongly that she came to the Shadow of her own free will. Either he was misleading us deliberately, or he was just being his usual self by giving an answer without being explicit.

 

I think it'd be better for the story if she had been 13x13ed. That'd be really interesting. Alas, it seems not to be likely.

 

Good find. Oh well, it was worth a shot. So, with that in mind, I feel more strongly now that Cyndane is messing with Rand and they're trying to pull on his newfound heartstrings to trap him.

 

As for the rest of the discussion, it seems pretty obvious that the effects that Tarna and a few others are showing in the BT are results of the 13/13d thing.

 

Here's a thought; maybe Rand's new "ability" to burn out the eyes of supposed Darkfriends can also "burn out" the effects of the 13/13d thing, bringing the good back out of some individuals??

[Mandro]

I don't think any of the forsaken were 13/13d. I get the impression that the new recruits at the BT and the ones who are coming back changed are 13/13d and the changes in them are apparently stark, and the kinda of characteristics you expect in a leader, which is what the forsaken are.

[KefkaPalazzo]

IF any of them were, I stick by my mad theory that it was Asmodean. But I very highly doubt that any of them were.

 

And jemron, he's been trying to turn people back since way before his epiphany. He nearly succeeded on Asmodean.

[fikkie77]

We know so little about how the 13/13 works where a channeler is "forced to the DO" by 13 Aes Sedai and 13 Fades, but what if one or more of the Forsaken was/is 13/13d?

 

It's unlikely that Mierin was 13x13ed. I was beginning to think that myself after reading ToM, but then somebody showed me this RJ quote:

 

As an aside, for those who think that Lanfear was in some way twisted against her will by being involved in drilling the Bore---I have heard the theory advanced---of all those involved in the project, she was the only major figure to go over to the Shadow. She was ripe for the Shadow's plucking long before the Bore was drilled.

 

(Source: Theoryland Database.)

 

Importantly, RJ didn't outright deny the theory. But he wasn't usually the type to make explicit declarations like that. He implied pretty strongly that she came to the Shadow of her own free will. Either he was misleading us deliberately, or he was just being his usual self by giving an answer without being explicit.

 

I think it'd be better for the story if she had been 13x13ed. That'd be really interesting. Alas, it seems not to be likely.

My personal theory was that Mierin got twisted while boring, at the same effect as the 13x13 trick. But RJ dimissed that in that quote.

Of most Forsaken we know they can't be 13x13ed. They turned to the Shadow before the 13x13 trick was discovered (I believe by Semi). The only candidate I can think of is Asmo, but that's a very long shot.

[Morist]

What about Graendal?

 

Isn't she described as becoming the "exact opposite of her former self" (her pets, unrestrained lifestyle etc).

[Nygma7]

What about Graendal?

 

Isn't she described as becoming the "exact opposite of her former self" (her pets, unrestrained lifestyle etc).

Good one. She probably is the most abrupt reversal among the Forsaken. Mierin was always power hungry, Demandred was always envious, Semirhage always sadistic. Balthamel was a liar, gambler and lecher; Mesaana always felt slighted; Aginor was a mad scientist. Ishmael thought too much and went insane.

 

Not really sure about Moghedien, Be'lal, or Rhavin's motivations. Be'lal was one of the great generals, right?

 

Asmodean's reason seemed a bit flaky, but then he was an artist.

 

Sammael and Be'lal probably the best bet after Graendal. But unlike her they weren't 180 degree turn arounds, they just got fed up with taking orders from LTT.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Graendal seems like she went to the Shadow honestly, and was one of the first people to do so. She was dissatisfied with the world. Most people could not meet the standards she herself lived up to, or at least this is how she saw it. Her POVs on the matter make it seem like she was disillusioned and decided ultimately to live purely for herself. Her debauched lifestyle as Graendal wasn't a reversal away from her previous asceticism so much as a rejection of the principles on which it was founded. She had withheld a lot from herself in the cause of self-betterment, and as Graendal took as much of those pleasures as she could, sometimes, I think, not merely for the pleasure of it but for the sheer defiance of it. Her mistake was that she went too far: She joined the Shadow. Either she went too far in her repudiation of society and abandoned it completely, to the point of joining the Shadow, or she went too far in her pursuit of decadence and embraced the Shadow as a means to greater indulgence.

 

I'd put her dead last next to Ishamael on the list of Forsaken for being allied with the Shadow against her will. Her personality reversal only makes it likelier that she was not turned, because the 13x13 trick merely brings out existing personality traits and suppresses others: It doesn't create new traits. Perhaps Graendal always did have the heart of a glutton, even before she was Graendal, but her judgment and worldview had been completely different. Her change of heart was an epiphany from within, not the result of others.

[Jong]

Lanfear is the least likely in my view. She was the first to turn so she could not have been turned by the 13 trick since fades did not exist when the bore was made.

 

I still think that Graendal and Ishmael are the most likely the have been turned. Graendal becuase of the obvious personality shift. Ishmael because he was regarded as the greatest mind in the AOL. And I personally think the reasoning that lead him to the DO is flawed.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

Lanfear is the least likely in my view. She was the first to turn so she could not have been turned by the 13 trick since fades did not exist when the bore was made.

The BWB says (on page 63) that Mierin was not among the first to go to the Shadow. Do you have a source to support your claim to the contrary?

[Dakota]

Personally I don't think any of the Forsaken were 13x13'd.

 

Despite the aforementioned difficulties in turning back, someone turned in this way would still only be turned to the shadow due to some sort of brainwashing.

Would you put someone who was brainwashed in such a way, in a position of such high power and authority?

 

It is entirely possible, but I just don't personally think it happened this way. In all likelihood, the Chosen were likely chosen in the first place because they willingly came over.

[Jong]

Lanfear is the least likely in my view. She was the first to turn so she could not have been turned by the 13 trick since fades did not exist when the bore was made.

The BWB says (on page 63) that Mierin was not among the first to go to the Shadow. Do you have a source to support your claim to the contrary?

Not that I feel like looking for and I maybe just misremembering. I thought she converted immeidately following drilling the bore, but perhaps not. Still, as per the BWB it was still 50 years from her conversion until the War of power began. Its not really clear that Fades would have been around at that time since they only were discovered by accident in the breeding of trollocs, large numbers of whihc would surely not have been present before the war.

[Adamdidit]

Personally I don't think any of the Forsaken were 13x13'd.

 

Despite the aforementioned difficulties in turning back, someone turned in this way would still only be turned to the shadow due to some sort of brainwashing.

Would you put someone who was brainwashed in such a way, in a position of such high power and authority?

 

It is entirely possible, but I just don't personally think it happened this way. In all likelihood, the Chosen were likely chosen in the first place because they willingly came over.

 

the DO would have to possess the ability to think he could fail/be wrogn to have this kind of caution.....as he does not, I doubt this concept matter sin his choosing

 

while not a Forsaken, Taim seems a likely candidate given some commentary about differences in him past to present...and given the fact that he himself is not doing this to people