Moraine and Callandor

[maddface]

I have seen some thoughts on these forums about who should be the two women in the circle with Rand to safely wield Callandor. Quite a few have said that the two women should be Nyneave and Moraine. Nyneave I can understand, she very strong and Rand trusts her, but why would he choose Moraine? There is one glaring reason that I can see why this is not a wise choice, she is so much weaker than she was before.

 

After the Finns sucked all the life out of Lanfear, they decided to go slow with Moraine and by doing so did not kill her but slowly sucked away her ability to channel. The only reason that she is even remotely as strong as she was before is because of the bracelet sa'angreal that she asked for as one of her wishes.

 

The only reason I could see Rand using Moraine is because he trusts her. But now he has other women who can channel that he trusts as well. Avi, Elayne, Cadsuane, Wise ones and Alivia. Why not use one of those women with Moraine's sa'angreal? My own personal thought was Alivia so that way she can "help Rand die" while fighting/sealing up the DO.

 

On a side note, is there any precedence in the WoT for using two sa'angreal in conjunction like that? The choden'kal were similar to this but they were actually ter'angreal linked to the sa'angreals, so I don't know if that is the same.

[Fel]

On a side note, is there any precedence in the WoT for using two sa'angreal in conjunction like that? The choden'kal were similar to this but they were actually ter'angreal linked to the sa'angreals, so I don't know if that is the same.

I believe that Rand linked with the fat man angreal while he was fighting Asmodean with the CK. I think that is the only time we have seen someone use 2 different angreal together.

[maddface]

I believe that Rand linked with the fat man angreal while he was fighting Asmodean with the CK. I think that is the only time we have seen someone use 2 different angreal together.

 

Ah yes, thanks for clearing that up.

[moratcorlm]

I'm not a proponent of the Moiraine circle at the moment, but I think the general assumption is that one of her requests from the Eelfinn would give her the knowledge to direct the circle as it ostensibly needs to be.

[randsc]

I'm not a proponent of the Moiraine circle at the moment, but I think the general assumption is that one of her requests from the Eelfinn would give her the knowledge to direct the circle as it ostensibly needs to be.

 

Right. And the fact that Rand trusts her is not a minor factor. If you were Rand, would you let, say, Egwene get you in a compromising situation?

[Jyxxer]

I think he's going to choose Moiraine simply based off Min's viewing. She thought to herself that Rand needed the help of a dead women to win the Last Battle. Obviously Moiraine will play a pivotal part in the Last Battle, and I don't see her having vital information that only she would know... unless it was about Callandor and the Bore.

[Mandro]

I believe it will be alivia, I think that the live to die or whatever the prophecy insinuates that (will mention in a mo) and avienda's trip through the spires indicate that Rand survives TG. I can't believe it will be Egwene, she is too selfish (and that's the right word, biggest problem with the books is how selfish the women are.) I don't think it's aviendha, I don't think it's Elayne (btw, Elayne should be going into labor soon, since min saw that the kids would be born healthy, but she can't see clearly anything that happens after the final battle) I doubt elayne will be a major player in the final battle, or there is a continuity issue. But I think there is no way at all that Rand would link with the women he love as he expects to die. Before this book, I thought it might have been Nicola, with nynaeve controling the weaves, but that idea's trashed. I think there is no doubt that Nynaeve will be controling the weaves (I wlll get back to that in a minute) but It's really a hard call.

 

It COULD be Moiraine, even if she's weak, but that doesn't matter, Rand can draw whatever he wants through calandor as long as he doesn't mind dying. The Women may or may not be shielded, so relative strength is not that important, I don't believe it will be Moiraine though. She has too much of a hold on him, He needs a tool, not a trusted one. Once the link is held by nynaeve, it's nyneaves, unless rand gives it to alivia.

 

Now to the die to live or whatever prophecy. I think we got a tickle at it in ToM when nyneave delved for madness in rand saying that he would die if she cleansed him of the madness.

 

I'm not the writer, I don't have an outline and so on. But What if the Dark One needs an avatar to fully enter the world? Rand is enmeshed, with his taint, and with his connection to The True Power, but you'll not Jordan enjoyed the use of 3's. Alivia strikes out at rand when he is rand/lews becomes darkone is killed by alivia, and revived by nynaeve. Weapon and healer with a single focus. The Dragon.

 

Rambling but I think I got my basic opinion out.

 

Alivia will kill the darkness that only one as strong as Rand can bare, kill rand as matt was because alivia is a weapon, Nyneave will heal him and he will come back just as rand.

 

I'm still rambling, If TG is won, we know that aviendha will have children by Rand, so she has to get knocked up pretty soon, or rand survives, I think he survives.

 

Sorry for the long ramble.

[Rookie.Rider]

That last one is a good point, Mandro. Aviendha will either need to get knocked up pretty soon, or Rand survives. Ofcourse, it only takes a few ins and outs to get somebody pregnant, so it's not like they need a lot of time.

[blazetheearth]

I believe it will be alivia, I think that the live to die or whatever the prophecy insinuates that (will mention in a mo) and avienda's trip through the spires indicate that Rand survives TG. I can't believe it will be Egwene, she is too selfish (and that's the right word, biggest problem with the books is how selfish the women are.) I don't think it's aviendha, I don't think it's Elayne (btw, Elayne should be going into labor soon, since min saw that the kids would be born healthy, but she can't see clearly anything that happens after the final battle) I doubt elayne will be a major player in the final battle, or there is a continuity issue. But I think there is no way at all that Rand would link with the women he love as he expects to die. Before this book, I thought it might have been Nicola, with nynaeve controling the weaves, but that idea's trashed. I think there is no doubt that Nynaeve will be controling the weaves (I wlll get back to that in a minute) but It's really a hard call.

 

It COULD be Moiraine, even if she's weak, but that doesn't matter, Rand can draw whatever he wants through calandor as long as he doesn't mind dying. The Women may or may not be shielded, so relative strength is not that important, I don't believe it will be Moiraine though. She has too much of a hold on him, He needs a tool, not a trusted one. Once the link is held by nynaeve, it's nyneaves, unless rand gives it to alivia.

 

Now to the die to live or whatever prophecy. I think we got a tickle at it in ToM when nyneave delved for madness in rand saying that he would die if she cleansed him of the madness.

 

I'm not the writer, I don't have an outline and so on. But What if the Dark One needs an avatar to fully enter the world? Rand is enmeshed, with his taint, and with his connection to The True Power, but you'll not Jordan enjoyed the use of 3's. Alivia strikes out at rand when he is rand/lews becomes darkone is killed by alivia, and revived by nynaeve. Weapon and healer with a single focus. The Dragon.

 

Rambling but I think I got my basic opinion out.

 

Alivia will kill the darkness that only one as strong as Rand can bare, kill rand as matt was because alivia is a weapon, Nyneave will heal him and he will come back just as rand.

 

I'm still rambling, If TG is won, we know that aviendha will have children by Rand, so she has to get knocked up pretty soon, or rand survives, I think he survives.

 

Sorry for the long ramble.

 

I agree with some of it, but I will raise a few points to counter the others.

 

"He needs a tool, not a trusted one." - What do you mean? He needs knowledge, not a tool. And he needs the knowledge to come from one that he knows he can trust completely. He needs someone who knows what must be done and how to do it. That person should be leading the Callandor-circle, not Nyn. Callandor is the tool, but he needs someone that knows how to operate that tool. Neither Alivia nor Nyn (nor any other channeler that we have seen around Rand) possesses that knowledge. The only possibilities of people who have that knowledge are Moraine or Lanfear or Moghiden or Graendal. I do not think that Rand would give control of a circle he is in to any of the last 3 so that leaves Mor.

 

I agree that Rand will die, but not stay dead. And that Alivia will kill him, and Nyn will heal him. I just wonder if there will be a 3 day wait between Rand's death and resurrection. Not just for the Christian reference, but also because Elayne makes the comment about Nynaeve in LoC that "Nynaeve would not be happy until she had healed someone three days dead." That comment by her made me think about there possibly being a wait between death and resurrection.

 

On a side note, the fact that the sword gets used in a circle with a woman controlling will make it safe for Rand. He cannot be burned out (or draw enough to kill him) if he is using Callandor properly in a circle with 2 women.

[quick ben]

I have seen some thoughts on these forums about who should be the two women in the circle with Rand to safely wield Callandor. Quite a few have said that the two women should be Nyneave and Moraine. Nyneave I can understand, she very strong and Rand trusts her, but why would he choose Moraine? There is one glaring reason that I can see why this is not a wise choice, she is so much weaker than she was before.

 

After the Finns sucked all the life out of Lanfear, they decided to go slow with Moraine and by doing so did not kill her but slowly sucked away her ability to channel. The only reason that she is even remotely as strong as she was before is because of the bracelet sa'angreal that she asked for as one of her wishes.

 

The only reason I could see Rand using Moraine is because he trusts her. But now he has other women who can channel that he trusts as well. Avi, Elayne, Cadsuane, Wise ones and Alivia. Why not use one of those women with Moraine's sa'angreal? My own personal thought was Alivia so that way she can "help Rand die" while fighting/sealing up the DO.

 

On a side note, is there any precedence in the WoT for using two sa'angreal in conjunction like that? The choden'kal were similar to this but they were actually ter'angreal linked to the sa'angreals, so I don't know if that is the same.

 

I honestly think eveybody is thinking about this the wrong way.. STRENGTH

Remember caddy's comments on Callandor..? linking with two women with one of them to guide the flows??

Rand is going to need someone that has pretty good spinning/weaving ability.. Caddy could be one.. Alivia for pure destruction.. but Moraine could be up there too.. It could even be she who must not be named.. after all the time with Moggy under the collar and learning the new weaves..

Who else is up there..?

[Mandro]

I just ammended my opinion. Matt gave up half the light of the world to save the world. The only thing he saved was Moiraine, so she probably entered into a bargain that makes her key for the final conflict.

[Foamy The Master]

didn't Mor tell the boys way back when that asking questions about anything dark one related is a dangerous thing in finnland?

 

so how would she be able to get anything or ask any questions at all about the LB?

 

 

[David Selig]

It COULD be Moiraine, even if she's weak, but that doesn't matter, Rand can draw whatever he wants through calandor as long as he doesn't mind dying. The Women may or may not be shielded, so relative strength is not that important, I don't believe it will be Moiraine though. She has too much of a hold on him, He needs a tool, not a trusted one. Once the link is held by nynaeve, it's nyneaves, unless rand gives it to alivia.

 

Rand said straight out he needs two women who he he can trust in the circle.

 

ToM, Ch. 15

 

At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Callandor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with me.

 

This is one of the main reasons I think it will probably be Moiraine in the circle. The list of channelling women who Rand trusts is a really short one.

 

didn't Mor tell the boys way back when that asking questions about anything dark one related is a dangerous thing in finnland?

 

so how would she be able to get anything or ask any questions at all about the LB?

Rand got away with asking how to cleanse saidin and how to win the Last Battle, so it's possible.

[Foamy The Master]

Rand got away with asking how to cleanse saidin and how to win the Last Battle, so it's possible

 

I know he did but hey it's Rand I'm sure if normal rules apply to him

[blazetheearth]

didn't Mor tell the boys way back when that asking questions about anything dark one related is a dangerous thing in finnland?

 

so how would she be able to get anything or ask any questions at all about the LB?

 

 

 

In this it is actually easier than when she visited the Snakes, because she isn't asking questions. She would simply be stating the "items" she wants. She studied Mat after he left Rhuidean and knows that he came away with at least a couple of "items" and that at least one of them was not physical. She knew before going in that she could have knowledge implanted directly to her mind. We saw her repeatedly chastise Rand for leaving Callandor behind in Tear so we can think that she places quite a bit of importance on it. So her requests/demands could have been phrased easily without naming the Shadow at all.

 

For example: "I want the angreal that she (pointing at Lanfear) was wearing when we entered, I want the knowledge of how the Dragon must use Callandor, and I want a cheeseburger."

 

Obviously I doubt that the 3rd request was for a cheeseburger, but since we have no way of knowing exactly what all she asked for, a cheeseburger is just as likely a guess as any other. I just used it as a filler for the 3rd request, but you see that she wouldn't have to mention any agent of the Shadow in order to get the knowledge that Rand needs to win.

[Cutlass]

I think Mo has received the knowledge from the finns to seal the bore, As someone else mentioned above - Mat had to give up half the light of the world to save the world - and all he brought out from the ToG was Mo. She will lead the circle, with the weaves/knowledge she attained from the finns. I am not totally convinced that everyone in the circle won't be killed when the bore is sealed or when the dark one is killed (leaning more toward the latter). Fain is the player I can't quite fit in. I hope its not a LotR scenario, and I am leaning toward using him to "funnel" the DO into to die, like with the taint at Shadar Logoth.

 

I think that Nyn will be away or otherwise occupied to be Rands 3'rd (saving Lan, or tied up in some meanial task that Eg. sets her on, etc.) so Alivia will be the 3'rd in the circle (Thus helping Rand die). The 3 women on the boat could very well be Rand's 3 ladies "skimming" him to Nyn to resurect him... or who knows, Rand's body could be sailed away by Bayle Doman (we havn't seen "spray" if a few books and RJ always liked to bring back things/people introduced long since) As I understand it he wrote the ending very early on - I would look for foreshadowing of the last battle in tEotW and tGH as I am sure some of his earliest ideas would have been set to apper then.

 

Is it Januray 2012 yet.... having a hard time waiting for AMoL

[Mandro]

 

For example: "I want the angreal that she (pointing at Lanfear) was wearing when we entered, I want the knowledge of how the Dragon must use Callandor, and I want a cheeseburger."

 

Obviously I doubt that the 3rd request was for a cheeseburger, but since we have no way of knowing exactly what all she asked for, a cheeseburger is just as likely a guess as any other. I just used it as a filler for the 3rd request, but you see that she wouldn't have to mention any agent of the Shadow in order to get the knowledge that Rand needs to win.

 

But I bet would have been nummy, even better than a double double from inandout burger.