Trollocs getting to Caemlyn via Ways

[moratcorlm]

They have dark eyes. Game over.

[Durinax]

Verin's letter that she left with Mat says about shadowspawn, but it doesnt specify that its Trollocs.

these new Aiel are something different i think, maybe machin shin cannot feel them.

they have a glassy eyed stare so it could be possible they are souless.

if machin shin was made by the taint it could be that it feels a kinship to myrddraal and trollocs but cant help its self

because they have emotions, just like humans and Ogier.

isnt soulless described as dull eyed in the series, or staring eyes. Thus far we have not seen anyone other than gray men function without a soul (the ogier was a vegatable, mesaana is now a vegatable)

 

glassy could be a synonym for shining I think, which is a subtle reminder of their glee.

 

I think macha chin has been uncreated by fain since he does not care what happens to humanity so long as he gets rand

[bobarose]

I think the taint from Shader Logoth is just another form of the Shadows touch.All things go back to him-her.

[herid]

They have dark eyes. Game over.

Dang, I totally missed that! You are quite right. ok, that makes them more interesting than just shadow twisted Aiel. Still, I see no evidence to connect them to Fain.

In fact, I see evidence to the contrary. as I said, Fain is fairly deep into the Blight (there are worms around) and Barriga meets those guys on the Blight border.

 

I also see no evidence that they are involved in the Caemlyn invasion or that there are huge numbers of them around. Shadow's main footsoldiers are Trollocs.

 

So whoever those red-veiled guys are I don't believe they are relevant to my original question. The best theory on that subject that I've seen so for is that Dreadlords have a method of dealing with Machin Shin (based on Liandrin's comment in TGH).

[Mr Ares]

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael.

We don't know that. Moridin thinks that because he believes that only a Forsaken could do it and all the other Forsaken are accounted for. There are apparently no eyewitnesses and all Moridin knows is that a bunch of trollocs and fades are gone.

We do know that it was Sammael or someone disguised as him. KoD is explicit on that point.

sorry, you are right on this one. But even so it could have been Fain. We don't know if he can create an illusion of a mark of a Forsaken but I don't think he needs one to command Myrddraal. As I mentioned he was able to impose his will on Myrddraal and trollocs as early as in TGH. When they flee with the Horn and the dagger there is a power struggle between Fain and the Myrddraal with their party changing direction depending on who was in charge (there is a Fain POV describing it) with Fain finally coming out victorious. He killed that Fade in the end but he didn't really have to. And Fain's power has grown greatly since then so I don't see anything strange in him being able to do it now, mark or no mark.

By ToM, Fain's touch is death to Fades - we don't know how long it has been like that, but he can no longer compel them. Also, he would need to torture an awful lot of them for an army that size.

[herid]

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael.

We don't know that. Moridin thinks that because he believes that only a Forsaken could do it and all the other Forsaken are accounted for. There are apparently no eyewitnesses and all Moridin knows is that a bunch of trollocs and fades are gone.

We do know that it was Sammael or someone disguised as him. KoD is explicit on that point.

sorry, you are right on this one. But even so it could have been Fain. We don't know if he can create an illusion of a mark of a Forsaken but I don't think he needs one to command Myrddraal. As I mentioned he was able to impose his will on Myrddraal and trollocs as early as in TGH. When they flee with the Horn and the dagger there is a power struggle between Fain and the Myrddraal with their party changing direction depending on who was in charge (there is a Fain POV describing it) with Fain finally coming out victorious. He killed that Fade in the end but he didn't really have to. And Fain's power has grown greatly since then so I don't see anything strange in him being able to do it now, mark or no mark.

By ToM, Fain's touch is death to Fades - we don't know how long it has been like that, but he can no longer compel them.

Hmm, that could be. But I rather think that by his touch here he means touching them with Mashadar the way he touched those Trollocs rather than any other kind of touch. There is also the other theory proposed earlier by Terez that he can impersonate Shammael and even the Mark because Mashadar killed Sammael. But I admit you present some strong arguments here and I'm no longer sure that Fain was behind the attack on the manor house in Tear. The main reason I was sure it was Fain was that he was the only one able to deal with Machin Shin. But even if that part is now in doubt there is still the issue of somebody impersonating Sammael effectively.

[chinnma]

I personaly think that the red-veiled psychos (along with the red-sailed senchean ships) are part of Demandredom.

[Mr Ares]

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael.

We don't know that. Moridin thinks that because he believes that only a Forsaken could do it and all the other Forsaken are accounted for. There are apparently no eyewitnesses and all Moridin knows is that a bunch of trollocs and fades are gone.

We do know that it was Sammael or someone disguised as him. KoD is explicit on that point.

sorry, you are right on this one. But even so it could have been Fain. We don't know if he can create an illusion of a mark of a Forsaken but I don't think he needs one to command Myrddraal. As I mentioned he was able to impose his will on Myrddraal and trollocs as early as in TGH. When they flee with the Horn and the dagger there is a power struggle between Fain and the Myrddraal with their party changing direction depending on who was in charge (there is a Fain POV describing it) with Fain finally coming out victorious. He killed that Fade in the end but he didn't really have to. And Fain's power has grown greatly since then so I don't see anything strange in him being able to do it now, mark or no mark.

By ToM, Fain's touch is death to Fades - we don't know how long it has been like that, but he can no longer compel them.

Hmm, that could be. But I rather think that by his touch here he means touching them with Mashadar the way he touched those Trollocs rather than any other kind of touch. There is also the other theory proposed earlier by Terez that he can impersonate Shammael and even the Mark because Mashadar killed Sammael. But I admit you present some strong arguments here and I'm no longer sure that Fain was behind the attack on the manor house in Tear. The main reason I was sure it was Fain was that he was the only one able to deal with Machin Shin. But even if that part is now in doubt there is still the issue of somebody impersonating Sammael effectively.

I would take issue with the part about him touching them with Mashadar - what he uses is a mist, yes, but Mashadar is not in the habit of leaving zombies, or even bodies. While what Fain does kills them, it causes blisters and cysts and hair loss, but it didn't eat their bodies entirely. Therefore I would hesitate to call it Mashadar, and consequently I remain unconvinced that he can impersonate Sammael just because Mashadar killed Sammael. Of course, we don't know the limits of Fain's powers, and he is pretty crazy, so maybe we can't rule him out entirely, but he doesn't seem like a strong candidate from where I'm sitting. But then, who is?

[herid]

I would take issue with the part about him touching them with Mashadar - what he uses is a mist, yes, but Mashadar is not in the habit of leaving zombies, or even bodies. While what Fain does kills them, it causes blisters and cysts and hair loss, but it didn't eat their bodies entirely. Therefore I would hesitate to call it Mashadar, and consequently I remain unconvinced that he can impersonate Sammael just because Mashadar killed Sammael. Of course, we don't know the limits of Fain's powers, and he is pretty crazy, so maybe we can't rule him out entirely, but he doesn't seem like a strong candidate from where I'm sitting. But then, who is?

Yes, I should not have called the mist that Fain now uses Mashadar. It's clearly more than that. as for the rest, as I said, I'm no longer sure what's going on. One thing that I only just thought about is that none of the Forsaken so much as bat an eye when Moridin mentions that somebody ordered 100k Trollocs and 100 Fades into the Ways. They are interested in who it was but they don't seem to wonder at all about how so many Trollocs are getting through the Ways at once.

[Terez]

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael, for one thing (we have no reason to believe Fain could do that, or would want to)

1. Fain can create illusion. He did it in Far Madding.

2. Fain has a connection to Mashadar, which ate Sammael's soul.

3. The Fade might have been lying.

Really reaching on that last point.

Maybe, maybe not. I feel it's the least likely of the options, but I still see it as being quite likely. Moridin did not see Sammael, nor did he see the orders given, or he would have known what the orders were.

 

And, while Fain can create illusions, we have not seen that he has the ability to create an illusion of Sammael (Chosen mark and all)

You are assuming that the Chosen mark is even necessary. None of the Forsaken understand it, exactly, and RJ did not say that Shadowspawn are incapable of disobeying the Chosen - just that they seem to be.

 

in FM we see a couple of ghosts wandering about

They were not ghosts. Fain clearly has a conversation with Mordeth about it before creating the illusion. My guess is that he could create an illusion of Torval and Gedwyn because he had killed them with his dagger.

 

nor do we have any reason to believe he would want to order them around as Sammael.

It's quite possible that Sammael was the only Forsaken available to him, since it was the only Forsaken killed by the evil of Shadar Logoth.

 

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael.

We don't know that. Moridin thinks that because he believes that only a Forsaken could do it and all the other Forsaken are accounted for. There are apparently no eyewitnesses and all Moridin knows is that a bunch of trollocs and fades are gone.

We do know that it was Sammael or someone disguised as him. KoD is explicit on that point.

No, KOD is explicit on what Moridin says. Moridin might be either wrong or lying. The Fade might have been wrong or lying. I don't think they were, but it's quite possible.

 

By ToM, Fain's touch is death to Fades - we don't know how long it has been like that, but he can no longer compel them.

It's true that his touch is death, but the idea that he can no longer compel them is pure Mr. Ares. Not that others have not said the same...but this is not indicated in the book. As a matter of fact, the Fade that Fain encountered in TOM was scared of him - it could sense the danger. All Fain would likely have to do is kill one of them with Mashadar to bring the rest in line, but even that might not have been necessary.

 

Also, he would need to torture an awful lot of them for an army that size.

He would probably only need one. Specifically, the Fade he captured back in TSR, the Fade that was completely broken to his will by LOC, in Fain's last POV. There is nothing to suggest that Fades won't take other Fades' word for Forsaken orders, and in fact, it would be quite strange if it were necessary for each Fade to be ordered individually.

 

I would take issue with the part about him touching them with Mashadar - what he uses is a mist, yes, but Mashadar is not in the habit of leaving zombies, or even bodies.

We actually don't know very much at all about what Mashadar is in the habit of doing. We only see it attack twice, and there is torture involved both times (in other words, it's not just instant death). Also, we have several hints that Mashadar is a hive mind of sorts (despite being mindless). The people of Aridhol seem to be a part of it, their eyes watching from the shadows, and this bit is interesting:

 

"I will find you," Moiraine said. "Be assured, I can find you. Now be off. This thing is utterly mindless, but it can sense food."

 

Indeed, ropes of silver-gray had lifted from the larger body. They drifted, wavering, like the tentacles of a hundredarms on the bottom of a Waterwood pond....

 

...The thickening tentacles of fog swung uncertainly for a moment, then struck like vipers. At least two latched to each Trolloc, bathing them in gray light; muzzled heads went back to scream, but fog rolled over open mouths, and in, eating the howls. Four leg-thick tentacles whipped around the Fade, and the Halfman and its black horse twitched as if dancing, till the cowl fell back, baring that pale, eyeless face. The Fade shrieked.

 

There was no sound from that cry, any more than from the Trollocs, but something came through, a piercing whine just beyond hearing, like all the hornets in the world, digging into Rand's ears with all the fear that could exist.

But don't you think it's interesting at least that Fain's mere touch is death now? Just like Mashadar? I don't find it surprising at all that it has changed just a little bit - not much, really - by virtue of being part of Fain now, but I think the main explanation for what happened to the Trollocs was the way that Fain killed the Fade that they were linked to. (A quote just for fun):

 

The Myrddraal turned to run away.

 

The mist struck.

 

It rolled over the Trollocs, moving quickly, like the tentacles of a leviathan in the Aryth Ocean. Lengths of it snapped forward through Trolloc chests. One long rope whipped above their heads, then shot forward in a blur, taking the Fade in the neck.

 

The Trollocs screamed, dropping, spasming. Their hair fell out in patches, and their skin began to boil. Blisters and cysts. When those popped, they left craterlike pocks in the Shadowspawn skin, like bubbles on the surface of metal that cooled too quickly...

 

...He walked on through the Blight.

 

The corrupted Trollocs climbed to their feet behind him, lurching into motion, spittle dropping from their lips. Their eyes had grown sluggish and dull, but when he desired it, they would respond with a frenzied battle lust that would surpass what they had known in life.

 

He left the Myrddraal. It would not rise, as rumors said they did. His touch now brought instant death to one of its kind. Pity. He had a few nails he might have otherwise put to good use.

[asha man]

They have dark eyes. Game over.

 

Isn't it interesting that throughout the series many wetlanders have used the phrase "black eyed aiel"? And borderlanders (especially Shienarans) have spoken of fighting aiel up near the Blight. The aiel have admitted to fighting with borderlanders as well, but there's no reason some of the fighting wasn't against these things.

Anyways, they can easily be Shadow-tainted aiel.

 

And what about Taim as the person who pretended to be Sammael and sent the trollocs south after Rand? I don't remember exactly why, but that was my impression.

[Terez]

And what about Taim as the person who pretended to be Sammael and sent the trollocs south after Rand? I don't remember exactly why, but that was my impression.

That's Luckers' theory. I find it unlikely for various reasons, but mostly because he seems unlikely to tweak Moridin's nose this far. Now, I do think it likely he ordered Slayer in Winter's Heart, but at the time, Moridin's standing orders pretty much allowed for it (from what we are told in the books), and even still the Mystery Man was overly precautious, scared of being discovered. The theory that Taim sent the Shadowspawn attack also assumes that 1) Taim is not Moridin, and 2) Taim is a new Chosen, which seems to be contradicted by Egwene's dream (unless it simply doesn't take Taim into account, which seems unlikely). If Taim is not a new Chosen, then there is no reason to assume he can order Shadowspawn, and if he is Moridin, then the whole scene makes little sense. Moridin seems very obviously frustrated by the whole thing.

[asha man]

True, if Moradin is Taim then it makes no sense. That's a big if though.

And I don't believe Taim is Chosen or can order Shadowspawn (at least not 100,000 of them). But I don't find it so unlikely that he could be the one to imitate Sammael, who they would take orders from.

[Terez]

 

PS - Yes, I was bored. And I went through all that trouble to be told I'd used too many emoticons. So I took a screenshot. It's not as cool because Graendal's streith is broken.

[Mr Ares]

The attack on Lord Algarin's manor in KoD was almost certainly not Fain's doing - it was ordered by someone impersonating Sammael, for one thing (we have no reason to believe Fain could do that, or would want to)

1. Fain can create illusion. He did it in Far Madding.

2. Fain has a connection to Mashadar, which ate Sammael's soul.

3. The Fade might have been lying.

Really reaching on that last point.

Maybe, maybe not. I feel it's the least likely of the options, but I still see it as being quite likely. Moridin did not see Sammael, nor did he see the orders given, or he would have known what the orders were.

 

And, while Fain can create illusions, we have not seen that he has the ability to create an illusion of Sammael (Chosen mark and all)

You are assuming that the Chosen mark is even necessary. None of the Forsaken understand it, exactly, and RJ did not say that Shadowspawn are incapable of disobeying the Chosen - just that they seem to be.

 

in FM we see a couple of ghosts wandering about

They were not ghosts. Fain clearly has a conversation with Mordeth about it before creating the illusion. My guess is that he could create an illusion of Torval and Gedwyn because he had killed them with his dagger.

 

nor do we have any reason to believe he would want to order them around as Sammael.

It's quite possible that Sammael was the only Forsaken available to him, since it was the only Forsaken killed by the evil of Shadar Logoth.

But not by Fain. You're reaching on all these points, really. Well, he was killed by Mashadar, which might be linked to Fain, which might mean that he can possibly perhaps bring him back as an illusion. Maybe. Or the Fade might have lied, for no particular reason, just because, and maybe the Fades just took orders from someone because they felt like it. And no-one noticed anything odd about Fain's compelled Fade (if it wasn't long dead by this point). Fain killed Torval and Gedwyn, he didn't kill Sammael, so we have no reason to believe he would be able to bring him back.

 

By ToM, Fain's touch is death to Fades - we don't know how long it has been like that, but he can no longer compel them.

It's true that his touch is death, but the idea that he can no longer compel them is pure Mr Ares.

Well, I don't know about where you're from, but in these parts instant death is generally seen as a handicap to being compelled. He can scare Fades, but that's it.

 

I would take issue with the part about him touching them with Mashadar - what he uses is a mist, yes, but Mashadar is not in the habit of leaving zombies, or even bodies.

We actually don't know very much at all about what Mashadar is in the habit of doing. We only see it attack twice, and there is torture involved both times (in other words, it's not just instant death). Also, we have several hints that Mashadar is a hive mind of sorts (despite being mindless).

So you're prepared to toss out everything we've seen from mashadar in the books, just for the hell of it. No, we don't have indications of it having a hive mind, unless you would like to post them (that quote of yours says nothing at all like that), and we've seen Mashadar operate. We've not seen it leave bodies. Thus suggesting it could leave bodies, while possible, is not supported by the evidence. Fain requires an elaborate conspiracy theory, nothing about which is supported. Mashadar being part of Fain is not suggested by the books, it is "pure Terez".

[Terez]

Lazy, Ares. But not unexpected. ;)

[Jimmyborofan]

Soo... Did not Rand create a weave that he asked Loial and his Ashaman mate to travel to all Way gates and 'curse' them in the same way... When Rand visits SL, he places the weave on the gate so that when shadow spawn (or even dark friends??) enter or leave the way gate, they will die later on so as to not die straight away and warn other shadowspawn, I'm positive this is why he sends Loial all over the place to ensure that all waygates outside of the blight have this weave on them.

 

And if this is the case, surely Caemlyn would have been one of the first to be dealt with and then the trollocs are doomed anyway?

[Suttree]

Soo... Did not Rand create a weave that he asked Loial and his Ashaman mate to travel to all Way gates and 'curse' them in the same way... When Rand visits SL, he places the weave on the gate so that when shadow spawn (or even dark friends??) enter or leave the way gate, they will die later on so as to not die straight away and warn other shadowspawn, I'm positive this is why he sends Loial all over the place to ensure that all waygates outside of the blight have this weave on them.

 

And if this is the case, surely Caemlyn would have been one of the first to be dealt with and then the trollocs are doomed anyway?

 

No he sent Karldin and Loial to warn all the steddings that shadowspawn are using the ways. Later he sends Elder Haman out to seal the waygates he hasn't taken care of yet. Obviously this didn't work as well as he wanted.

[Sharaman]

Dark eyes (apart from metaphorical possibilities) would also arise if light-eye male Aiel channelers were inter-bred with dark-eyed women taken captive from the Borderlands. Dark eyes are a dominant gene. We know Border women (and most of the Westland population) are dark-eyed. We know Borderlanders are taken captive (to make swords and as livestock). We know male Aiel channelers (but not women) disappear into the Blight.

Is it too much of stretch to assume that they could be turned to the Shadow by 13x13 or whatever means?

Is it too much of a stretch to assume that they may be bred with Borderland women to produce a race of perverted, dark-eyed channelers (not necessarily only men) with Aiel fighting styles and gear?

[Ciete]

Soo... Did not Rand create a weave that he asked Loial and his Ashaman mate to travel to all Way gates and 'curse' them in the same way... When Rand visits SL, he places the weave on the gate so that when shadow spawn (or even dark friends??) enter or leave the way gate, they will die later on so as to not die straight away and warn other shadowspawn, I'm positive this is why he sends Loial all over the place to ensure that all waygates outside of the blight have this weave on them.

 

And if this is the case, surely Caemlyn would have been one of the first to be dealt with and then the trollocs are doomed anyway?

 

No he sent Karldin and Loial to warn all the steddings that shadowspawn are using the ways. Later he sends Elder Haman out to seal the waygates he hasn't taken care of yet. Obviously this didn't work as well as he wanted.

 

Is it possible that this waygate in Caemlyn is one that neither Rand nor Elder Haman knew about?

[Suttree]

Soo... Did not Rand create a weave that he asked Loial and his Ashaman mate to travel to all Way gates and 'curse' them in the same way... When Rand visits SL, he places the weave on the gate so that when shadow spawn (or even dark friends??) enter or leave the way gate, they will die later on so as to not die straight away and warn other shadowspawn, I'm positive this is why he sends Loial all over the place to ensure that all waygates outside of the blight have this weave on them.

 

And if this is the case, surely Caemlyn would have been one of the first to be dealt with and then the trollocs are doomed anyway?

 

No he sent Karldin and Loial to warn all the steddings that shadowspawn are using the ways. Later he sends Elder Haman out to seal the waygates he hasn't taken care of yet. Obviously this didn't work as well as he wanted.

 

Is it possible that this waygate in Caemlyn in one that neither Rand nor Elder Haman knew about?

 

I believe it's the same one that Rand already used...

[Ciete]

Soo... Did not Rand create a weave that he asked Loial and his Ashaman mate to travel to all Way gates and 'curse' them in the same way... When Rand visits SL, he places the weave on the gate so that when shadow spawn (or even dark friends??) enter or leave the way gate, they will die later on so as to not die straight away and warn other shadowspawn, I'm positive this is why he sends Loial all over the place to ensure that all waygates outside of the blight have this weave on them.

 

And if this is the case, surely Caemlyn would have been one of the first to be dealt with and then the trollocs are doomed anyway?

 

No he sent Karldin and Loial to warn all the steddings that shadowspawn are using the ways. Later he sends Elder Haman out to seal the waygates he hasn't taken care of yet. Obviously this didn't work as well as he wanted.

 

Is it possible that this waygate in Caemlyn in one that neither Rand nor Elder Haman knew about?

 

I believe it's the same one that Rand already used...

 

Not that I'm doubting you at all, but was this expressly stated in Verin's letter? I was just curious as it's been a while since I've read ToM...

[Suttree]

Soo... Did not Rand create a weave that he asked Loial and his Ashaman mate to travel to all Way gates and 'curse' them in the same way... When Rand visits SL, he places the weave on the gate so that when shadow spawn (or even dark friends??) enter or leave the way gate, they will die later on so as to not die straight away and warn other shadowspawn, I'm positive this is why he sends Loial all over the place to ensure that all waygates outside of the blight have this weave on them.

 

And if this is the case, surely Caemlyn would have been one of the first to be dealt with and then the trollocs are doomed anyway?

 

No he sent Karldin and Loial to warn all the steddings that shadowspawn are using the ways. Later he sends Elder Haman out to seal the waygates he hasn't taken care of yet. Obviously this didn't work as well as he wanted.

 

Is it possible that this waygate in Caemlyn in one that neither Rand nor Elder Haman knew about?

 

I believe it's the same one that Rand already used...

 

Not that I'm doubting you at all, but was this expressly stated in Verin's letter? I was just curious as it's been a while since I've read ToM...

 

Yes it was...

 

ToM

There is a Waygate in Caemlyn. It is guarded, barricaded, and thought secure. It is not.

[Luckers]

Moghedien stated that there are ways to spin holes through wardings. Of course she was lying to degrees, but that doesn't mean the concept is impossible, just very likely difficult.

 

Of course push come to shove we've seen the Dark Ones touch violate wardings in the past, so a True Power method is not out of the question.