Perrin's new station in Andor

[David Selig]

Without Rand, Elayne would not be involved in any sort of succession struggle, because Morgase would still be Queen. And in thrall to one of the Foresaken. Indisputable, yes?

Morgase left Caemlyn and got away from Rahvin long before Rand came to attack him. But I get your point that killing Rahvin is what started the whole Succession.

 

I also maintain that there is a difference between the nobles caring and the population caring. So no, it is not clear at all that, "Andor" would have risen against him.

 

I'd say we've been given really strong clues that the population cared a lot. Here for example:

 

TPOD, CH. 20

 

“Oh, it’s true, my lady, so it is; Elayne’s alive,” a gnarled old carpenter told her in Forel Market. He was bald as a leather egg, his fingers twisted with age, but the work standing among the shavings and sawdust that littered his shop looked as fine as any Elayne had seen. She was the only person in the shop besides him. From the look of the village, half the residents had left. “The Dragon Reborn is having her brought to Caemlyn so he can put the Rose Crown on her head himself,” he allowed. “The news is all over. ’Tisn’t right, if you ask me. He’s one of them black-eyed Aielmen, I hear. We ought to march on Caemlyn and drive him and all them Aiel back where they come from. Then Elayne can claim the throne her own self. If Dyelin lets her keep it, anyway.”

 

Elayne heard a great deal about Rand, rumors ranging from him swearing fealty to Elaida to him being the King of Illian, of all things. In Andor, he was blamed for everything bad that happened for the last two or three years, including stillbirths and broken legs, infestations of grasshoppers, two-headed calves, and three-legged chickens. And even people who thought her mother had ruined the country and an end to the reign of House Trakand was good riddance still believed Rand al’Thor an invader. The Dragon Reborn was supposed to fight the Dark One at Shayol Ghul, and he should be driven out of Andor. Not what she had hoped to hear, not a bit of it. But she heard it all again and again.

 

The whole point if the Andoran plotline IMO is that yes, Rand could've enforced his rule over the whole country by force and put whoever he wanted on the throne directly or take it himself, but this would've led to a far more casualties. It also would've led to a situation in which after being conquered in a bloody war by what they saw as invaders - Rand and his Aiel, the Andorans would've been much more reluctant to follow Rand during Tarmon Gai'don. The passage I quoted is one of the many which really drove this point home in pretty blunt way, especially by Jordan standards, he was usually more subtle. Dyelin and the other High Seats declaration in LoC, Ch. 16 was an even more clear one. Then we have Bashere in CoT's prologue confirming it. I personally find the extreme patriotism of the Andorans over the choice of a Queen on the eve of the LB and their clearly stated intention to rise against Rand's way bigger forces quite implausible, but that's how RJ wrote it so I accept it.

[AquilaInfernus]

so we're clear, Perrin's Stewardship is a neat solution to a potentially destabling situation...

 

And Elayne's actions were justified, regardless of Rand's intervention, given the general attitude of Andorans to his liberation.

[Mr Ares]

The presence of, "Queen's Men" like Gill implies that there is another faction, that wraps different pretty ribbons around their scabards.

But we have no indication of republican sentiment.

 

Also, men were apparently willing to join the Queen's Guard while swearing to Andor, not the Queen. Which is as it should be, of course.

Well, I don't know about you, but if I ever became a Queen (unlikely though that might be), I would want my Queen's Guards to be sworn to guarding me, their Queen. I have no objection to a standing army to protect the country, but these are supposed to be the guys guarding me. So no, that is not how it should be.

 

Several decades from now, following the death from natural causes of Rahvin's plaything, the former Queen Morgase.

Did you miss her abdication? Which was due to Whitecloak pressure, not Rand's. After she had fled Rahvin before Rand got there.

 

If, in A Crown of Swords, Rand had disapproved of Dyelin's actions, she would be on a farm somewhere.

Which would require military intervention, and risk putting all of Andor against him. And thus making it even harder for Elayne to take charge.

 

As for the aiel, i think the quote earlier when Dyelin says she will come against him, would make it pretty easy for the aiel to find them. All they have to do is wait for them to come. I don't think that the aiel are magic, yet any threat posed to the city of Caemlyn would be dealt with swiftly.

And the rest of Andor? Even if the Andorans decide they can't face the Aiel in open combat, they can still deny whichever puppet the Dragon sticks in Caemlyn anything more than a rump state. Or what about guerilla warfare? You do have to hunt people down. Or outlaw bands (after you break the back of the army - those soldiers have to go somewhere).

The people of Andor were upset that the Dragon was occupying the land (in PoD as elayne is marching home), but they are not organized and seriously talking about attacking him. They are just complaining... Also, outlaw bands did not do very well against the Aiel in Cairhein (where they were rampant during the civil war until the aiel tracked them all down and killed them). There really was no real threat of taking camelyn away from the Aiel/Bashere.

Andor is not Caemlyn. If it came to it, could Rand's forces defeat the whole of Andor without it being a phyrrhic victory? No. Therefore the military option is off the table. If they came to Caemlyn, could he defeat them? Yes, but he still wouldn't have Andor, so he would still not be in a very good position to give her the throne. Outlaw bands require soldiers to deal with, thus diluting his forces, and thus his hold on Caemlyn.

 

Rand 'conquered' Caemlyn and there was no force capable or willing to evict him from the city.

Yet he was evicted from the city (or, more accurately, he fled).

Actually, all of his forces stayed.

So? He wasn't in charge. His army was maintaining order, not ruling. He could take charge again, in all likelihood, but he didn't.

 

You can say that Dyelin ruled, but how exactly would she have ruled anything without any troops to speak of?

There is more to ruling than sticking a spear in someone's face.

 

If you cannot believe that Elayne would not have won the throne without holding Camelyn, and that the army that was holding Camelyn was the Dragon's army, and, therefore Elayne only got the throne because the Dragon held it for her...

I see no reason she couldn't win the throne without Caemlyn. After all, there were various claimants and they didn't seem to think that someone else occupying the city meant they had lost. She could raise an army and lay siege to Caemlyn herself, if someone else had it. Being given Caemlyn might have made things easier on her, but it didn't give her the throne, and not having it wouldn't mean she couldn't get the throne. So in no way is it reasonable to claim that Rand gave her the throne.

 

LoC Ch16

"But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in cairhein or tear.......then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." "and I will ride beside you," Luan said firmly. "And I," Ellorian said, echoed by Abelle.

 

What is clear from the text is that if Rand was inclined to do any of the possibilities you mention(which he wasn't...not even a remote chance...ever...so you are still dealing in what ifs), Andor would have risen against him.

Correct. Rand was not trying to be king of Andor. He was just giving the throne to Elayne. He used his power and muscle to hold the seat open and hold the capital until such time as Elayne could be bothered to come claim it.

And in doing so delayed her return. Had he left immediately, she would have come back before. And to give something, you surely have to have it?

 

Firstly, I do have to note my surprise at Perrin's apparent sex change.

queen consort does not mean he got a sex change it means he is the queens lover, that said it was still the wrong choice of words.

A Queen Consort is a King's wife. Perrin is a man.

 

on to the subject... I am always surprised by the way everyone seems to pick apart this series, it is like half the people on the forums actually believe it is happening, and that it is really this world.

No, it's like we happen to enjoy discussing this series. Almost exactly like that, in fact. And Gods that was a horrible post to read.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The presence of, "Queen's Men" like Gill implies that there is another faction, that wraps different pretty ribbons around their scabards.

But we have no indication of republican sentiment.

 

Also, men were apparently willing to join the Queen's Guard while swearing to Andor, not the Queen. Which is as it should be, of course.

Well, I don't know about you, but if I ever became a Queen (unlikely though that might be), I would want my Queen's Guards to be sworn to guarding me, their Queen. I have no objection to a standing army to protect the country, but these are supposed to be the guys guarding me. So no, that is not how it should be.

 

Several decades from now, following the death from natural causes of Rahvin's plaything, the former Queen Morgase.

Did you miss her abdication? Which was due to Whitecloak pressure, not Rand's. After she had fled Rahvin before Rand got there.

 

If, in A Crown of Swords, Rand had disapproved of Dyelin's actions, she would be on a farm somewhere.

Which would require military intervention, and risk putting all of Andor against him. And thus making it even harder for Elayne to take charge.

 

As for the aiel, i think the quote earlier when Dyelin says she will come against him, would make it pretty easy for the aiel to find them. All they have to do is wait for them to come. I don't think that the aiel are magic, yet any threat posed to the city of Caemlyn would be dealt with swiftly.

And the rest of Andor? Even if the Andorans decide they can't face the Aiel in open combat, they can still deny whichever puppet the Dragon sticks in Caemlyn anything more than a rump state. Or what about guerilla warfare? You do have to hunt people down. Or outlaw bands (after you break the back of the army - those soldiers have to go somewhere).

The people of Andor were upset that the Dragon was occupying the land (in PoD as elayne is marching home), but they are not organized and seriously talking about attacking him. They are just complaining... Also, outlaw bands did not do very well against the Aiel in Cairhein (where they were rampant during the civil war until the aiel tracked them all down and killed them). There really was no real threat of taking camelyn away from the Aiel/Bashere.

Andor is not Caemlyn. If it came to it, could Rand's forces defeat the whole of Andor without it being a phyrrhic victory? No. Therefore the military option is off the table. If they came to Caemlyn, could he defeat them? Yes, but he still wouldn't have Andor, so he would still not be in a very good position to give her the throne. Outlaw bands require soldiers to deal with, thus diluting his forces, and thus his hold on Caemlyn.

 

Rand 'conquered' Caemlyn and there was no force capable or willing to evict him from the city.

Yet he was evicted from the city (or, more accurately, he fled).

Actually, all of his forces stayed.

So? He wasn't in charge. His army was maintaining order, not ruling. He could take charge again, in all likelihood, but he didn't.

 

You can say that Dyelin ruled, but how exactly would she have ruled anything without any troops to speak of?

There is more to ruling than sticking a spear in someone's face.

 

If you cannot believe that Elayne would not have won the throne without holding Camelyn, and that the army that was holding Camelyn was the Dragon's army, and, therefore Elayne only got the throne because the Dragon held it for her...

I see no reason she couldn't win the throne without Caemlyn. After all, there were various claimants and they didn't seem to think that someone else occupying the city meant they had lost. She could raise an army and lay siege to Caemlyn herself, if someone else had it. Being given Caemlyn might have made things easier on her, but it didn't give her the throne, and not having it wouldn't mean she couldn't get the throne. So in no way is it reasonable to claim that Rand gave her the throne.

 

LoC Ch16

"But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in cairhein or tear.......then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." "and I will ride beside you," Luan said firmly. "And I," Ellorian said, echoed by Abelle.

 

What is clear from the text is that if Rand was inclined to do any of the possibilities you mention(which he wasn't...not even a remote chance...ever...so you are still dealing in what ifs), Andor would have risen against him.

Correct. Rand was not trying to be king of Andor. He was just giving the throne to Elayne. He used his power and muscle to hold the seat open and hold the capital until such time as Elayne could be bothered to come claim it.

And in doing so delayed her return. Had he left immediately, she would have come back before. And to give something, you surely have to have it?

 

Firstly, I do have to note my surprise at Perrin's apparent sex change.

queen consort does not mean he got a sex change it means he is the queens lover, that said it was still the wrong choice of words.

A Queen Consort is a King's wife. Perrin is a man.

 

on to the subject... I am always surprised by the way everyone seems to pick apart this series, it is like half the people on the forums actually believe it is happening, and that it is really this world.

No, it's like we happen to enjoy discussing this series. Almost exactly like that, in fact. And Gods that was a horrible post to read.

 

 

I doubt it's as clear cut as you wish it to be. Rand was the legal ruler of Andor by right of conquest, it was a conquest since he deposed of the ruler of the nation and the issue of plunder (the fifth) came up. However like many magnanimous leaders he forbade plunder for political purposes, even men such as Genghis Khan spared certain cities from being plundered if it served their political purposes.

 

Rand then proceeds to sit in the throne room and prepare everything for his personally chosen successor Elayne to take over. He makes it clear to Dyelin that any political aspirations of hers were not going to be tolerated, she would be removed from nobility itself if she so tried. Dyelin then assured the Dragon that her loyalty was with the Dragon's choice Elayne. Thus averting a potential crisis.

 

As for the people of Andor. If a significant amount of them were willing to take up open tacit support through ribbons for Lord Gaebril's faction then I doubt Andor would be much at arms if the Rand would have claimed authority by right of being the eldest of House Mantear. He would certainly have garnered a sizeable following among the lower classes and seeing as he is the Dragon who also rules many other nations, more than enough other nobles would swear to his side simply out of political convenience. Using him to further their own power by choosing the side that is sure to win, thereby hoping to perhaps claim and annex the rebellious nobles estates and lands as reward for their loyalty. Rand wouldn't even have to use his own men, since he would probably have a sizable faction in an Andoran civil war. Nobles are driven by greed and power, seeing the behavior of Andoran nobles in Murandy they seem specifically prone to it. Rand would not have had much issue with animosity in Andor, the worst that would happen would be a faction of Rand loyalist vs separatists.

 

As for being a phyrric victory? Please. Much like in the war of the Roses or similar aristocratic civil wars you simply give the lands of the dissenters to loyalists. Thus when you need to muster future forces you will have them because the lands of, for example Dyelin, would not be in possession of a clear Rand loyalist.

 

However this is all hypothetical since Rand refused to ascend the throne of a conquered Andor and instead chose to relegate and give the throne to his wife.

[AvroChris]

Crikey, is this still going on? Elayne had what seem to me to be good political reasons to refuse the Dragon's help. I also find it very doubtful that Rand would have allowed anything to happen except what Rand wanted for Andor, unless Elayne slapped him and sent him to sleep in the hay-barn.

And yeah, Perrin could rebel, but he probably won't. Rand's kids are going to inherit the Two Rivers because, providing he agrees to it, he's going to be Lord of the Two Rivers - which is fine and dandy because his kids are also going to be Elayne's kids. It actually seems to be a rather neat solution. Ghealdan is a shattered nation so having a very strong but slightly indirect connection to Andor isn't really a bad thing for them, and it avoids conflict with Saldaea by splitting the lines of Succession. And you never know, Tenobia could survive the Last Battle and have a child. Stranger things have happened.

[Mr Ares]

The presence of, "Queen's Men" like Gill implies that there is another faction, that wraps different pretty ribbons around their scabards.

But we have no indication of republican sentiment.

 

Also, men were apparently willing to join the Queen's Guard while swearing to Andor, not the Queen. Which is as it should be, of course.

Well, I don't know about you, but if I ever became a Queen (unlikely though that might be), I would want my Queen's Guards to be sworn to guarding me, their Queen. I have no objection to a standing army to protect the country, but these are supposed to be the guys guarding me. So no, that is not how it should be.

 

Several decades from now, following the death from natural causes of Rahvin's plaything, the former Queen Morgase.

Did you miss her abdication? Which was due to Whitecloak pressure, not Rand's. After she had fled Rahvin before Rand got there.

 

If, in A Crown of Swords, Rand had disapproved of Dyelin's actions, she would be on a farm somewhere.

Which would require military intervention, and risk putting all of Andor against him. And thus making it even harder for Elayne to take charge.

 

As for the aiel, i think the quote earlier when Dyelin says she will come against him, would make it pretty easy for the aiel to find them. All they have to do is wait for them to come. I don't think that the aiel are magic, yet any threat posed to the city of Caemlyn would be dealt with swiftly.

And the rest of Andor? Even if the Andorans decide they can't face the Aiel in open combat, they can still deny whichever puppet the Dragon sticks in Caemlyn anything more than a rump state. Or what about guerilla warfare? You do have to hunt people down. Or outlaw bands (after you break the back of the army - those soldiers have to go somewhere).

The people of Andor were upset that the Dragon was occupying the land (in PoD as elayne is marching home), but they are not organized and seriously talking about attacking him. They are just complaining... Also, outlaw bands did not do very well against the Aiel in Cairhein (where they were rampant during the civil war until the aiel tracked them all down and killed them). There really was no real threat of taking camelyn away from the Aiel/Bashere.

Andor is not Caemlyn. If it came to it, could Rand's forces defeat the whole of Andor without it being a phyrrhic victory? No. Therefore the military option is off the table. If they came to Caemlyn, could he defeat them? Yes, but he still wouldn't have Andor, so he would still not be in a very good position to give her the throne. Outlaw bands require soldiers to deal with, thus diluting his forces, and thus his hold on Caemlyn.

 

Rand 'conquered' Caemlyn and there was no force capable or willing to evict him from the city.

Yet he was evicted from the city (or, more accurately, he fled).

Actually, all of his forces stayed.

So? He wasn't in charge. His army was maintaining order, not ruling. He could take charge again, in all likelihood, but he didn't.

 

You can say that Dyelin ruled, but how exactly would she have ruled anything without any troops to speak of?

There is more to ruling than sticking a spear in someone's face.

 

If you cannot believe that Elayne would not have won the throne without holding Camelyn, and that the army that was holding Camelyn was the Dragon's army, and, therefore Elayne only got the throne because the Dragon held it for her...

I see no reason she couldn't win the throne without Caemlyn. After all, there were various claimants and they didn't seem to think that someone else occupying the city meant they had lost. She could raise an army and lay siege to Caemlyn herself, if someone else had it. Being given Caemlyn might have made things easier on her, but it didn't give her the throne, and not having it wouldn't mean she couldn't get the throne. So in no way is it reasonable to claim that Rand gave her the throne.

 

LoC Ch16

"But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in cairhein or tear.......then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." "and I will ride beside you," Luan said firmly. "And I," Ellorian said, echoed by Abelle.

 

What is clear from the text is that if Rand was inclined to do any of the possibilities you mention(which he wasn't...not even a remote chance...ever...so you are still dealing in what ifs), Andor would have risen against him.

Correct. Rand was not trying to be king of Andor. He was just giving the throne to Elayne. He used his power and muscle to hold the seat open and hold the capital until such time as Elayne could be bothered to come claim it.

And in doing so delayed her return. Had he left immediately, she would have come back before. And to give something, you surely have to have it?

 

Firstly, I do have to note my surprise at Perrin's apparent sex change.

queen consort does not mean he got a sex change it means he is the queens lover, that said it was still the wrong choice of words.

A Queen Consort is a King's wife. Perrin is a man.

 

on to the subject... I am always surprised by the way everyone seems to pick apart this series, it is like half the people on the forums actually believe it is happening, and that it is really this world.

No, it's like we happen to enjoy discussing this series. Almost exactly like that, in fact. And Gods that was a horrible post to read.

 

I doubt it's as clear cut as you wish it to be. Rand was the legal ruler of Andor by right of conquest, it was a conquest since he deposed of the ruler of the nation and the issue of plunder (the fifth) came up. However like many magnanimous leaders he forbade plunder for political purposes, even men such as Genghis Khan spared certain cities from being plundered if it served their political purposes.

 

Rand then proceeds to sit in the throne room and prepare everything for his personally chosen successor Elayne to take over. He makes it clear to Dyelin that any political aspirations of hers were not going to be tolerated, she would be removed from nobility itself if she so tried. Dyelin then assured the Dragon that her loyalty was with the Dragon's choice Elayne. Thus averting a potential crisis.

 

As for the people of Andor. If a significant amount of them were willing to take up open tacit support through ribbons for Lord Gaebril's faction then I doubt Andor would be much at arms if the Rand would have claimed authority by right of being the eldest of House Mantear. He would certainly have garnered a sizeable following among the lower classes and seeing as he is the Dragon who also rules many other nations, more than enough other nobles would swear to his side simply out of political convenience. Using him to further their own power by choosing the side that is sure to win, thereby hoping to perhaps claim and annex the rebellious nobles estates and lands as reward for their loyalty. Rand wouldn't even have to use his own men, since he would probably have a sizable faction in an Andoran civil war. Nobles are driven by greed and power, seeing the behavior of Andoran nobles in Murandy they seem specifically prone to it. Rand would not have had much issue with animosity in Andor, the worst that would happen would be a faction of Rand loyalist vs separatists.

 

As for being a phyrric victory? Please. Much like in the war of the Roses or similar aristocratic civil wars you simply give the lands of the dissenters to loyalists. Thus when you need to muster future forces you will have them because the lands of, for example Dyelin, would not be in possession of a clear Rand loyalist.

 

However this is all hypothetical since Rand refused to ascend the throne of a conquered Andor and instead chose to relegate and give the throne to his wife.

Rand, by his own admission, did not conquer Andor. By the simple practicalities of the situation (he never held most of the country) he didn't conquer Andor. He removed a ruler he didn't like, but claimed no lawful authority for his own. For political reasons or not, he held that the lawful ruler of Andor was exactly the same person who would have been lawful ruler had he not been involved. While Rand is entirely capable of conquering Andor and placing whoever he damn well pleases on the throne, he didn't. He set up shop in Caemlyn, but only acting on behalf of the lawful ruler, and didn't interfere with the Succession (he was willing to, but he didn't). It would be a pyrrhic victory because of TG, which was no a factor in the Wars of the Roses. In Tear (which didn't come to open fighting) all the rebels had their lands and titles restored to them. Rand can't afford to waste Andor's resources in a fight against Andor. Rand is not married. Gaebril presented himself as an Andoran lord, Rand did not present himself as such. Therefore he was seen as a foreign would-be conqueror. He fed Illian before he became ruler. He saved Cairhien from the Shaido. He took an unbeatable fortress in Tear, and captured most of the ruling nobility. None of that is true of Andor. They have no reason to love him, nor can he command all the High Seats. Thus they have a reason and capability to resist his rule that the others didn't have.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The presence of, "Queen's Men" like Gill implies that there is another faction, that wraps different pretty ribbons around their scabards.

But we have no indication of republican sentiment.

 

Also, men were apparently willing to join the Queen's Guard while swearing to Andor, not the Queen. Which is as it should be, of course.

Well, I don't know about you, but if I ever became a Queen (unlikely though that might be), I would want my Queen's Guards to be sworn to guarding me, their Queen. I have no objection to a standing army to protect the country, but these are supposed to be the guys guarding me. So no, that is not how it should be.

 

Several decades from now, following the death from natural causes of Rahvin's plaything, the former Queen Morgase.

Did you miss her abdication? Which was due to Whitecloak pressure, not Rand's. After she had fled Rahvin before Rand got there.

 

If, in A Crown of Swords, Rand had disapproved of Dyelin's actions, she would be on a farm somewhere.

Which would require military intervention, and risk putting all of Andor against him. And thus making it even harder for Elayne to take charge.

 

As for the aiel, i think the quote earlier when Dyelin says she will come against him, would make it pretty easy for the aiel to find them. All they have to do is wait for them to come. I don't think that the aiel are magic, yet any threat posed to the city of Caemlyn would be dealt with swiftly.

And the rest of Andor? Even if the Andorans decide they can't face the Aiel in open combat, they can still deny whichever puppet the Dragon sticks in Caemlyn anything more than a rump state. Or what about guerilla warfare? You do have to hunt people down. Or outlaw bands (after you break the back of the army - those soldiers have to go somewhere).

The people of Andor were upset that the Dragon was occupying the land (in PoD as elayne is marching home), but they are not organized and seriously talking about attacking him. They are just complaining... Also, outlaw bands did not do very well against the Aiel in Cairhein (where they were rampant during the civil war until the aiel tracked them all down and killed them). There really was no real threat of taking camelyn away from the Aiel/Bashere.

Andor is not Caemlyn. If it came to it, could Rand's forces defeat the whole of Andor without it being a phyrrhic victory? No. Therefore the military option is off the table. If they came to Caemlyn, could he defeat them? Yes, but he still wouldn't have Andor, so he would still not be in a very good position to give her the throne. Outlaw bands require soldiers to deal with, thus diluting his forces, and thus his hold on Caemlyn.

 

Rand 'conquered' Caemlyn and there was no force capable or willing to evict him from the city.

Yet he was evicted from the city (or, more accurately, he fled).

Actually, all of his forces stayed.

So? He wasn't in charge. His army was maintaining order, not ruling. He could take charge again, in all likelihood, but he didn't.

 

You can say that Dyelin ruled, but how exactly would she have ruled anything without any troops to speak of?

There is more to ruling than sticking a spear in someone's face.

 

If you cannot believe that Elayne would not have won the throne without holding Camelyn, and that the army that was holding Camelyn was the Dragon's army, and, therefore Elayne only got the throne because the Dragon held it for her...

I see no reason she couldn't win the throne without Caemlyn. After all, there were various claimants and they didn't seem to think that someone else occupying the city meant they had lost. She could raise an army and lay siege to Caemlyn herself, if someone else had it. Being given Caemlyn might have made things easier on her, but it didn't give her the throne, and not having it wouldn't mean she couldn't get the throne. So in no way is it reasonable to claim that Rand gave her the throne.

 

LoC Ch16

"But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in cairhein or tear.......then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." "and I will ride beside you," Luan said firmly. "And I," Ellorian said, echoed by Abelle.

 

What is clear from the text is that if Rand was inclined to do any of the possibilities you mention(which he wasn't...not even a remote chance...ever...so you are still dealing in what ifs), Andor would have risen against him.

Correct. Rand was not trying to be king of Andor. He was just giving the throne to Elayne. He used his power and muscle to hold the seat open and hold the capital until such time as Elayne could be bothered to come claim it.

And in doing so delayed her return. Had he left immediately, she would have come back before. And to give something, you surely have to have it?

 

Firstly, I do have to note my surprise at Perrin's apparent sex change.

queen consort does not mean he got a sex change it means he is the queens lover, that said it was still the wrong choice of words.

A Queen Consort is a King's wife. Perrin is a man.

 

on to the subject... I am always surprised by the way everyone seems to pick apart this series, it is like half the people on the forums actually believe it is happening, and that it is really this world.

No, it's like we happen to enjoy discussing this series. Almost exactly like that, in fact. And Gods that was a horrible post to read.

 

I doubt it's as clear cut as you wish it to be. Rand was the legal ruler of Andor by right of conquest, it was a conquest since he deposed of the ruler of the nation and the issue of plunder (the fifth) came up. However like many magnanimous leaders he forbade plunder for political purposes, even men such as Genghis Khan spared certain cities from being plundered if it served their political purposes.

 

Rand then proceeds to sit in the throne room and prepare everything for his personally chosen successor Elayne to take over. He makes it clear to Dyelin that any political aspirations of hers were not going to be tolerated, she would be removed from nobility itself if she so tried. Dyelin then assured the Dragon that her loyalty was with the Dragon's choice Elayne. Thus averting a potential crisis.

 

As for the people of Andor. If a significant amount of them were willing to take up open tacit support through ribbons for Lord Gaebril's faction then I doubt Andor would be much at arms if the Rand would have claimed authority by right of being the eldest of House Mantear. He would certainly have garnered a sizeable following among the lower classes and seeing as he is the Dragon who also rules many other nations, more than enough other nobles would swear to his side simply out of political convenience. Using him to further their own power by choosing the side that is sure to win, thereby hoping to perhaps claim and annex the rebellious nobles estates and lands as reward for their loyalty. Rand wouldn't even have to use his own men, since he would probably have a sizable faction in an Andoran civil war. Nobles are driven by greed and power, seeing the behavior of Andoran nobles in Murandy they seem specifically prone to it. Rand would not have had much issue with animosity in Andor, the worst that would happen would be a faction of Rand loyalist vs separatists.

 

As for being a phyrric victory? Please. Much like in the war of the Roses or similar aristocratic civil wars you simply give the lands of the dissenters to loyalists. Thus when you need to muster future forces you will have them because the lands of, for example Dyelin, would not be in possession of a clear Rand loyalist.

 

However this is all hypothetical since Rand refused to ascend the throne of a conquered Andor and instead chose to relegate and give the throne to his wife.

Rand, by his own admission, did not conquer Andor. By the simple practicalities of the situation (he never held most of the country) he didn't conquer Andor. He removed a ruler he didn't like, but claimed no lawful authority for his own. For political reasons or not, he held that the lawful ruler of Andor was exactly the same person who would have been lawful ruler had he not been involved. While Rand is entirely capable of conquering Andor and placing whoever he damn well pleases on the throne, he didn't. He set up shop in Caemlyn, but only acting on behalf of the lawful ruler, and didn't interfere with the Succession (he was willing to, but he didn't). It would be a pyrrhic victory because of TG, which was no a factor in the Wars of the Roses. In Tear (which didn't come to open fighting) all the rebels had their lands and titles restored to them. Rand can't afford to waste Andor's resources in a fight against Andor. Rand is not married. Gaebril presented himself as an Andoran lord, Rand did not present himself as such. Therefore he was seen as a foreign would-be conqueror. He fed Illian before he became ruler. He saved Cairhien from the Shaido. He took an unbeatable fortress in Tear, and captured most of the ruling nobility. None of that is true of Andor. They have no reason to love him, nor can he command all the High Seats. Thus they have a reason and capability to resist his rule that the others didn't have.

 

 

What you're arguing is de jure vs de facto. When Sulla marched onto Rome when returning from the Mithridatic war he ousted the Marius faction claiming to liberate the city. Yet it was clear he conquered it. If it quacks it's a duck. You can try to paint it as something else to fit political convenience, but only a fool would let himself get deceived by a few pretty words as actions speak for themselves. There is an entire art in politics as even RJ attempted to introduce a bit with the Cairhien saga.

 

Also Rand didn't need to install any puppet. He carefully chose the heiress of the last Queen who was also his wife, therefore insured to be loyal to him. He would not tolerate anyone who was not acquainted or of whom he could not be sure they would support his cause. It's a safe bet that giving the throne to your wife ensures that said country will rally to you.

 

As for your insistence of Rand not owning Andor. As a rule when you hold the capital you own the nation. In WW2 the Germans never held even close to half of France when they "conquered it" and France surrendered. When the Germans capitulated the Allies didn't hold close to half of Germany and the entire south was completely free. I could list a million more examples. Generally holding the capital means you are the de facto ruler of a nation.

[randsc]

I have officially, completely lost interest.

[Jon Paul]

Rand Sedai isn't married.

[Muad Cheade]

What you're arguing is de jure vs de facto. When Sulla marched onto Rome when returning from the Mithridatic war he ousted the Marius faction claiming to liberate the city. Yet it was clear he conquered it. If it quacks it's a duck. You can try to paint it as something else to fit political convenience, but only a fool would let himself get deceived by a few pretty words as actions speak for themselves. There is an entire art in politics as even RJ attempted to introduce a bit with the Cairhien saga.

That is definitely not an apt comparison.

 

Also Rand didn't need to install any puppet. He carefully chose the heiress of the last Queen who was also his wife, therefore insured to be loyal to him. He would not tolerate anyone who was not acquainted or of whom he could not be sure they would support his cause. It's a safe bet that giving the throne to your wife ensures that said country will rally to you.

Carefully chose? Everyone knew he was going to attempt to give the throne to Elayne. He did it because Elayne was Morgase's heir and the Andoran's would accept her although he could have done better. I don't know why you're implying here was another candidate., when there really wasn't.

 

As for your insistence of Rand not owning Andor. As a rule when you hold the capital you own the nation. In WW2 the Germans never held even close to half of France when they "conquered it" and France surrendered. When the Germans capitulated the Allies didn't hold close to half of Germany and the entire south was completely free. I could list a million more examples. Generally holding the capital means you are the de facto ruler of a nation.

So Napoleon owned Russia when he took Moscow? Napoleon owned Portugal during the Peninsular War when he took Lisbon? He lost both wars. I could go on for hours.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

What you're arguing is de jure vs de facto. When Sulla marched onto Rome when returning from the Mithridatic war he ousted the Marius faction claiming to liberate the city. Yet it was clear he conquered it. If it quacks it's a duck. You can try to paint it as something else to fit political convenience, but only a fool would let himself get deceived by a few pretty words as actions speak for themselves. There is an entire art in politics as even RJ attempted to introduce a bit with the Cairhien saga.

That is definitely not an apt comparison.

 

Also Rand didn't need to install any puppet. He carefully chose the heiress of the last Queen who was also his wife, therefore insured to be loyal to him. He would not tolerate anyone who was not acquainted or of whom he could not be sure they would support his cause. It's a safe bet that giving the throne to your wife ensures that said country will rally to you.

Carefully chose? Everyone knew he was going to attempt to give the throne to Elayne. He did it because Elayne was Morgase's heir and the Andoran's would accept her although he could have done better. I don't know why you're implying here was another candidate., when there really wasn't.

 

As for your insistence of Rand not owning Andor. As a rule when you hold the capital you own the nation. In WW2 the Germans never held even close to half of France when they "conquered it" and France surrendered. When the Germans capitulated the Allies didn't hold close to half of Germany and the entire south was completely free. I could list a million more examples. Generally holding the capital means you are the de facto ruler of a nation.

So Napoleon owned Russia when he took Moscow? Napoleon owned Portugal during the Peninsular War when he took Lisbon? He lost both wars. I could go on for hours.

 

 

Moscow was the capital in name. Yet St Petersburg was the political and spiritual capital of the time. So your comparison is strongly lacking. The most important city in Russia was never taken by Napoleon. Nor was Novgorod which also served as a de-facto third capital due to it's long history in Russian proper. Can you name me a place in Andor which serves as the political capital and largest city which is not Caemlyn? I doubt White Bridge is bigger and holds more of the political elite than Caemlyn does.

[capuga]

We should also consider how the Andorans view Elayne and Rand's actions. Perhaps some readers see it as Rand's forces handing Caemlyn to Elayne and helping her secure the throne. What is important is that the Andoran nobility does not. They see Elayne come in and evict the Dragon's forces. They see her fight in various ways to gain the support of enough Houses. In their eyes Elayne won the throne on her own and that will be politically important in the future of Andor. Whether we agree or not is not important. Its the perception of the Andoran Houses and people that is important. And in that regard Elayne seems to have succeeded.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

We should also consider how the Andorans view Elayne and Rand's actions. Perhaps some readers see it as Rand's forces handing Caemlyn to Elayne and helping her secure the throne. What is important is that the Andoran nobility does not. They see Elayne come in and evict the Dragon's forces. They see her fight in various ways to gain the support of enough Houses. In their eyes Elayne won the throne on her own and that will be politically important in the future of Andor. Whether we agree or not is not important. Its the perception of the Andoran Houses and people that is important. And in that regard Elayne seems to have succeeded.

 

 

Evict lol

 

She kindly asked them borderline begged them to leave. Seeing that she is the lover of their commander they agreed and camped outside the walls inhibiting Elayne's enemies even more by preventing them from doing a complete encirclement without disrupting the Aiel/Dragon camps.

[David Selig]

St Petersburg was actually the capital of Russia in 1812 in name, just to clarify.

[capuga]

We should also consider how the Andorans view Elayne and Rand's actions. Perhaps some readers see it as Rand's forces handing Caemlyn to Elayne and helping her secure the throne. What is important is that the Andoran nobility does not. They see Elayne come in and evict the Dragon's forces. They see her fight in various ways to gain the support of enough Houses. In their eyes Elayne won the throne on her own and that will be politically important in the future of Andor. Whether we agree or not is not important. Its the perception of the Andoran Houses and people that is important. And in that regard Elayne seems to have succeeded.

 

 

Evict lol

 

She kindly asked them borderline begged them to leave. Seeing that she is the lover of their commander they agreed and camped outside the walls inhibiting Elayne's enemies even more by preventing them from doing a complete encirclement without disrupting the Aiel/Dragon camps.

 

I'm not arguing that she would have been able to force them out or that they weren't hoping to help her because she is the one that their leader wants to rule. I'm arguing at how the Andorans perceive this move. To them Elayne did not use the Dragon's forces that were available to her. She asked them to leave and rounded up forces herself. To many readers a lot of this argument might just be semantics. To the Andorans these distinctions are important.

[Muad Cheade]

Haha. I was wondering if anyone would notice that. Actually, Rembrandt, Saint Petersburg was the political and commercial capital. Had been for over a century. Moscow was the "spiritual" and cultural capital. I figured i could split hairs but I guess not. Taking Moscow held more significance than taking Petersburg, which I'd why Napoleon did so.

 

Anyways. There is still Napoleon taking Lisbon. They did not give up once he took the capital. Same goes for the Athenians in their various wars. Same goes for the multitude of revolutions and rebellions in Latin and Southern America. Etc.

 

Rand taking Caemlyn did not mean he had Andor, let alone the nation's allegiance. If he had remained long enough, a rebellion would have occurred as it did in Tear and Cairhien. And yes, it was necessary that Elayne win the throne by her own. Rand saying he was "giving the throne to her didn't help."

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Haha. I was wondering if anyone would notice that. Actually, Rembrandt, Saint Petersburg was the political and commercial capital. Had been for over a century. Moscow was the "spiritual" and cultural capital. I figured i could split hairs but I guess not. Taking Moscow held more significance than taking Petersburg, which I'd why Napoleon did so.

 

Anyways. There is still Napoleon taking Lisbon. They did not give up once he took the capital. Same goes for the Athenians in their various wars. Same goes for the multitude of revolutions and rebellions in Latin and Southern America. Etc.

 

Rand taking Caemlyn did not mean he had Andor, let alone the nation's allegiance. If he had remained long enough, a rebellion would have occurred as it did in Tear and Cairhien. And yes, it was necessary that Elayne win the throne by her own. Rand saying he was "giving the throne to her didn't help."

 

 

Lisbon is also a silly example. They, the Portuguese, couldn't legally surrender since they were in the British sphere of influence with Britain being the Great Power serving as the war leader for their faction. It's the same reason why in Napoleon's drive East many German States despite being entirely occupied and overrun could not surrender until Prussia their sphere leader terminated the war. It has as good as no correlation to the situation at hand. Or are you implying that Andor is in fact a client state to a greater power under whose sphere of influence it resides? I was always under the impression that Andor was a powerful autonomous nation serving as a Great Power in terms of diplomatic status.

[randsc]

Haha. I was wondering if anyone would notice that. Actually, Rembrandt, Saint Petersburg was the political and commercial capital. Had been for over a century. Moscow was the "spiritual" and cultural capital. I figured i could split hairs but I guess not. Taking Moscow held more significance than taking Petersburg, which I'd why Napoleon did so.

 

Anyways. There is still Napoleon taking Lisbon. They did not give up once he took the capital. Same goes for the Athenians in their various wars. Same goes for the multitude of revolutions and rebellions in Latin and Southern America. Etc.

 

Rand taking Caemlyn did not mean he had Andor, let alone the nation's allegiance. If he had remained long enough, a rebellion would have occurred as it did in Tear and Cairhien. And yes, it was necessary that Elayne win the throne by her own. Rand saying he was "giving the throne to her didn't help."

 

 

Lisbon is also a silly example. They, the Portuguese, couldn't legally surrender since they were in the British sphere of influence with Britain being the Great Power serving as the war leader for their faction. It's the same reason why in Napoleon's drive East many German States despite being entirely occupied and overrun could not surrender until Prussia their sphere leader terminated the war. It has as good as no correlation to the situation at hand. Or are you implying that Andor is in fact a client state to a greater power under whose sphere of influence it resides? I was always under the impression that Andor was a powerful autonomous nation serving as a Great Power in terms of diplomatic status.

 

 

I agree with you on the Andor stuff, mostly, however...

 

You're confusing Europa Universalis with history.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Haha. I was wondering if anyone would notice that. Actually, Rembrandt, Saint Petersburg was the political and commercial capital. Had been for over a century. Moscow was the "spiritual" and cultural capital. I figured i could split hairs but I guess not. Taking Moscow held more significance than taking Petersburg, which I'd why Napoleon did so.

 

Anyways. There is still Napoleon taking Lisbon. They did not give up once he took the capital. Same goes for the Athenians in their various wars. Same goes for the multitude of revolutions and rebellions in Latin and Southern America. Etc.

 

Rand taking Caemlyn did not mean he had Andor, let alone the nation's allegiance. If he had remained long enough, a rebellion would have occurred as it did in Tear and Cairhien. And yes, it was necessary that Elayne win the throne by her own. Rand saying he was "giving the throne to her didn't help."

 

 

Lisbon is also a silly example. They, the Portuguese, couldn't legally surrender since they were in the British sphere of influence with Britain being the Great Power serving as the war leader for their faction. It's the same reason why in Napoleon's drive East many German States despite being entirely occupied and overrun could not surrender until Prussia their sphere leader terminated the war. It has as good as no correlation to the situation at hand. Or are you implying that Andor is in fact a client state to a greater power under whose sphere of influence it resides? I was always under the impression that Andor was a powerful autonomous nation serving as a Great Power in terms of diplomatic status.

 

 

I agree with you on the Andor stuff, mostly, however...

 

You're confusing Europa Universalis with history.

 

 

Europa what?

[Suttree]

I agree with you on the Andor stuff, mostly, however...

 

You're confusing Europa Universalis with history.

 

 

Europa what?

 

http://www.europauniversalis3.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=33

[Muad Cheade]

Lisbon is also a silly example. They, the Portuguese, couldn't legally surrender since they were in the British sphere of influence with Britain being the Great Power serving as the war leader for their faction. It's the same reason why in Napoleon's drive East many German States despite being entirely occupied and overrun could not surrender until Prussia their sphere leader terminated the war. It has as good as no correlation to the situation at hand.

That doesn't exactly make sense. Portugal could have surrendered regardless. By your reasoning, no nation during the Napoleonic Era should have sued for peace as the British Empire still always fought (they were the dominant political and economic power). There are also the examples of the rulers of Saxony and Bavaria who broke with Prussia and Austria to become kings under Napoleon. Also, the Electorate of Hanover (which was in a personal union with the United Kingdom) was conquered and then made into the Kingdom of Westphalia ruled by Napoleon's brother. This was accepted by the nobility. The army was pretty much the only group that actually did something and they just retreated to England.

 

Or are you implying that Andor is in fact a client state to a greater power under whose sphere of influence it resides? I was always under the impression that Andor was a powerful autonomous nation serving as a Great Power in terms of diplomatic status.

I'm not sure how you got that from me saying "Rand taking Caemlyn did not mean he had Andor, let alone the nation's allegiance. If he had remained long enough, a rebellion would have occurred as it did in Tear and Cairhien. And yes, it was necessary that Elayne win the throne by her own. Rand saying he was "giving the throne to her didn't help.""

 

 

I agree with you on the Andor stuff, mostly, however...

 

You're confusing Europa Universalis with history.

Haha. I do love that series. It's been a while though.

 

This has gotten way off topic, but the main point is that it was necessary for Elayne to attain the throne by herself in order to have legitimacy. Merely showing up and using the troops Rand had left would just show her as being his puppet.

[bysomy]

The Andoran nobility is comprised of jackasses. Rand killed a forsaken for them and they still whine about his wording when he gives Elayne her capitol.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The Andoran nobility is comprised of jackasses. Rand killed a forsaken for them and they still whine about his wording when he gives Elayne her capitol.

 

 

Crudely worded, but an amazingly accurate summary of the entire thread.

[Muad Cheade]

Eh. People don't like foreign intervention in their country. Look at the current examples of Iraq and Afghanistan. The US toppled harsh regimes yet people still resist (I'm speaking more of the dissenting moderates than the extremists).

 

This has definitely gone off-topic but c'est la vie.

[Mr Ares]

The presence of, "Queen's Men" like Gill implies that there is another faction, that wraps different pretty ribbons around their scabards.

But we have no indication of republican sentiment.

 

Also, men were apparently willing to join the Queen's Guard while swearing to Andor, not the Queen. Which is as it should be, of course.

Well, I don't know about you, but if I ever became a Queen (unlikely though that might be), I would want my Queen's Guards to be sworn to guarding me, their Queen. I have no objection to a standing army to protect the country, but these are supposed to be the guys guarding me. So no, that is not how it should be.

 

Several decades from now, following the death from natural causes of Rahvin's plaything, the former Queen Morgase.

Did you miss her abdication? Which was due to Whitecloak pressure, not Rand's. After she had fled Rahvin before Rand got there.

 

If, in A Crown of Swords, Rand had disapproved of Dyelin's actions, she would be on a farm somewhere.

Which would require military intervention, and risk putting all of Andor against him. And thus making it even harder for Elayne to take charge.

 

As for the aiel, i think the quote earlier when Dyelin says she will come against him, would make it pretty easy for the aiel to find them. All they have to do is wait for them to come. I don't think that the aiel are magic, yet any threat posed to the city of Caemlyn would be dealt with swiftly.

And the rest of Andor? Even if the Andorans decide they can't face the Aiel in open combat, they can still deny whichever puppet the Dragon sticks in Caemlyn anything more than a rump state. Or what about guerilla warfare? You do have to hunt people down. Or outlaw bands (after you break the back of the army - those soldiers have to go somewhere).

The people of Andor were upset that the Dragon was occupying the land (in PoD as elayne is marching home), but they are not organized and seriously talking about attacking him. They are just complaining... Also, outlaw bands did not do very well against the Aiel in Cairhein (where they were rampant during the civil war until the aiel tracked them all down and killed them). There really was no real threat of taking camelyn away from the Aiel/Bashere.

Andor is not Caemlyn. If it came to it, could Rand's forces defeat the whole of Andor without it being a phyrrhic victory? No. Therefore the military option is off the table. If they came to Caemlyn, could he defeat them? Yes, but he still wouldn't have Andor, so he would still not be in a very good position to give her the throne. Outlaw bands require soldiers to deal with, thus diluting his forces, and thus his hold on Caemlyn.

 

Rand 'conquered' Caemlyn and there was no force capable or willing to evict him from the city.

Yet he was evicted from the city (or, more accurately, he fled).

Actually, all of his forces stayed.

So? He wasn't in charge. His army was maintaining order, not ruling. He could take charge again, in all likelihood, but he didn't.

 

You can say that Dyelin ruled, but how exactly would she have ruled anything without any troops to speak of?

There is more to ruling than sticking a spear in someone's face.

 

If you cannot believe that Elayne would not have won the throne without holding Camelyn, and that the army that was holding Camelyn was the Dragon's army, and, therefore Elayne only got the throne because the Dragon held it for her...

I see no reason she couldn't win the throne without Caemlyn. After all, there were various claimants and they didn't seem to think that someone else occupying the city meant they had lost. She could raise an army and lay siege to Caemlyn herself, if someone else had it. Being given Caemlyn might have made things easier on her, but it didn't give her the throne, and not having it wouldn't mean she couldn't get the throne. So in no way is it reasonable to claim that Rand gave her the throne.

 

LoC Ch16

"But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in cairhein or tear.......then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." "and I will ride beside you," Luan said firmly. "And I," Ellorian said, echoed by Abelle.

 

What is clear from the text is that if Rand was inclined to do any of the possibilities you mention(which he wasn't...not even a remote chance...ever...so you are still dealing in what ifs), Andor would have risen against him.

Correct. Rand was not trying to be king of Andor. He was just giving the throne to Elayne. He used his power and muscle to hold the seat open and hold the capital until such time as Elayne could be bothered to come claim it.

And in doing so delayed her return. Had he left immediately, she would have come back before. And to give something, you surely have to have it?

 

Firstly, I do have to note my surprise at Perrin's apparent sex change.

queen consort does not mean he got a sex change it means he is the queens lover, that said it was still the wrong choice of words.

A Queen Consort is a King's wife. Perrin is a man.

 

on to the subject... I am always surprised by the way everyone seems to pick apart this series, it is like half the people on the forums actually believe it is happening, and that it is really this world.

No, it's like we happen to enjoy discussing this series. Almost exactly like that, in fact. And Gods that was a horrible post to read.

 

I doubt it's as clear cut as you wish it to be. Rand was the legal ruler of Andor by right of conquest, it was a conquest since he deposed of the ruler of the nation and the issue of plunder (the fifth) came up. However like many magnanimous leaders he forbade plunder for political purposes, even men such as Genghis Khan spared certain cities from being plundered if it served their political purposes.

 

Rand then proceeds to sit in the throne room and prepare everything for his personally chosen successor Elayne to take over. He makes it clear to Dyelin that any political aspirations of hers were not going to be tolerated, she would be removed from nobility itself if she so tried. Dyelin then assured the Dragon that her loyalty was with the Dragon's choice Elayne. Thus averting a potential crisis.

 

As for the people of Andor. If a significant amount of them were willing to take up open tacit support through ribbons for Lord Gaebril's faction then I doubt Andor would be much at arms if the Rand would have claimed authority by right of being the eldest of House Mantear. He would certainly have garnered a sizeable following among the lower classes and seeing as he is the Dragon who also rules many other nations, more than enough other nobles would swear to his side simply out of political convenience. Using him to further their own power by choosing the side that is sure to win, thereby hoping to perhaps claim and annex the rebellious nobles estates and lands as reward for their loyalty. Rand wouldn't even have to use his own men, since he would probably have a sizable faction in an Andoran civil war. Nobles are driven by greed and power, seeing the behavior of Andoran nobles in Murandy they seem specifically prone to it. Rand would not have had much issue with animosity in Andor, the worst that would happen would be a faction of Rand loyalist vs separatists.

 

As for being a phyrric victory? Please. Much like in the war of the Roses or similar aristocratic civil wars you simply give the lands of the dissenters to loyalists. Thus when you need to muster future forces you will have them because the lands of, for example Dyelin, would not be in possession of a clear Rand loyalist.

 

However this is all hypothetical since Rand refused to ascend the throne of a conquered Andor and instead chose to relegate and give the throne to his wife.

Rand, by his own admission, did not conquer Andor. By the simple practicalities of the situation (he never held most of the country) he didn't conquer Andor. He removed a ruler he didn't like, but claimed no lawful authority for his own. For political reasons or not, he held that the lawful ruler of Andor was exactly the same person who would have been lawful ruler had he not been involved. While Rand is entirely capable of conquering Andor and placing whoever he damn well pleases on the throne, he didn't. He set up shop in Caemlyn, but only acting on behalf of the lawful ruler, and didn't interfere with the Succession (he was willing to, but he didn't). It would be a pyrrhic victory because of TG, which was no a factor in the Wars of the Roses. In Tear (which didn't come to open fighting) all the rebels had their lands and titles restored to them. Rand can't afford to waste Andor's resources in a fight against Andor. Rand is not married. Gaebril presented himself as an Andoran lord, Rand did not present himself as such. Therefore he was seen as a foreign would-be conqueror. He fed Illian before he became ruler. He saved Cairhien from the Shaido. He took an unbeatable fortress in Tear, and captured most of the ruling nobility. None of that is true of Andor. They have no reason to love him, nor can he command all the High Seats. Thus they have a reason and capability to resist his rule that the others didn't have.

 

 

What you're arguing is de jure vs de facto. When Sulla marched onto Rome when returning from the Mithridatic war he ousted the Marius faction claiming to liberate the city. Yet it was clear he conquered it. If it quacks it's a duck. You can try to paint it as something else to fit political convenience, but only a fool would let himself get deceived by a few pretty words as actions speak for themselves. There is an entire art in politics as even RJ attempted to introduce a bit with the Cairhien saga.

Actually, I'm arguing that neither de jure nor de facto can Rand be considered the conqueror of Andor. It would be more accurate to say I'm arguing Caemlyn vs Andor - he conquered a city, the rest of the country did not follow.

 

As for your insistence of Rand not owning Andor. As a rule when you hold the capital you own the nation. In WW2 the Germans never held even close to half of France when they "conquered it" and France surrendered. When the Germans capitulated the Allies didn't hold close to half of Germany and the entire south was completely free. I could list a million more examples. Generally holding the capital means you are the de facto ruler of a nation.

Well, given you admit this is a general trend rather than an absolute rule, you're going to have to provide evidence of Rand having conquered the whole country, not just the capital and some of the surrounding area. France surrendered, as you say, and so did Germany. When did Andor surrender? Which Great Houses swore allegiance to Rand?