Perrin's new station in Andor

[David Selig]

He then proceeds to set down his throne in the hall, and calls forth royal decisions decreeing the creation of the Black Tower on Andoran land and the creation of an academy paid for by the royal coffers.

That's incorrect. It was paid for by Rand's funds from Cairhien until Elayne took over it and started funding it. Rand told Dobraine in WH's prologue "Make sure Headmistress Tarsin has whatever coin she needs, and the men starting the school in Caemlyn."

[GregDietzFla]

1. Rand conquered Andor in all but name. He said he did not come as a conqueror, but that was more to keep the aiel from taking their fifth. As for him giving her the throne, he did.

An argument that completely ignores the simple fact that Rand wasn't there, he had no control over Andor when Elayne came, and she took control from a power vacuum, she wasn't handed it by Rand. Therefore in no sense is it accurate to say he gave it to her. In neither legal nor practical terms did he have it. He had abandoned Caemlyn.

For those of you who say it wasn't his to give, you can site legal presedence all day, but if history has taught us anything, might makes right. Hypothetically, if Rand named himself king, and Dyelin rallied every house in Andor, How long would it have taken for the Aiel to utterly destroy them??

Months of hard fighting, which would be an utterly pyrrhic victory as Rand would have to destroy a powerful nation, thus weakening the Light for TG. Practically, he can't do that even if he wants to. If he smashes the Light, he loses. Rand's actual strength is limited by such considerations.

However he did show that it was his with his ability to establish the Black Tower, which since he didnt hold the throne he had no "legal" right to annex this land, yet who has called him out on it?

He didn't annex the land, it remains Andoran. He just put a bunch of people on an unoccupied farm. True, she might not be in any position to enforce her will over Taim, but that has nothing to do with Rand, and everything to do with Taim's power.

 

1. Rand never 'abandoned' Caemlyn. Bashere and Rhuarc are still there (with their respective armies) when Elayne begins her fight for the throne. Ya Rand didn't sit there the entire time, but in no way did he abandon it.

2.So you are saying that it would take months for the Aiel to destroy whatever Andoran army came? That is laughable. Not to mention that should Rand have wanted the throne of Andor, he most likely would have found support from about half the houses (Armymilla and her lot), maybe enough to gain the throne.

3. While 'technically' the BT is still in Andor, that is mostly because it is surrounded by Andor, and read back to my, laws mean nothing without ability to enforce, so in reality the BT is the BT, not Andor. And for all that anyone (except Logain) knows, Taim serves Rand so yes it has something to do with Rand.

Andor has no ability to enforce its laws on the BT solely due to Taim, nothing to do with Rand. I don't think the Aiel are magic, capable of tracking down and destroying all resistance in weeks. If a big army took the field, they might well be able to rout it. But those soldiers who survive can still cause problems. And Elayne took power from a power vacuum. Caemlyn was not held by Rand or his lieutenants. Even if it was, the fact that he didn't hold more than the capital surely means he didn't conquer the country? When Elayne arrived in Caemlyn, the regent there was Dyelin, ruling in Elayne's name. Not Rand, nor one of his lieutenants, nor anyone ruling in Rand's name. So Rand didn't hold Caemlyn, Dyelin did in Elayne's name. Rand didn't hold the rest of Andor, various nobles did, with a power vacuum as there was no overall control. So how can Rand be considered to have given Elayne the throne? Or the city? Or anything?

 

By the way, to whom it may concern, Regent: person appointed to administer state during minority, absence or incapacity of monarch. Use of it to mean ruler is archaic. Elayne is not the regent of Andor, she is the Queen of Andor. Rand was regent after killing Rahvin and before he left the country. Dyelin was regent before Elayne's return. Neither was the ruler, they were acting in that capacity during the ruler's absence. To put it another way, you keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

OK, so long story short, she can't impose her rule on the BT(Still don't see how it could have NOTHING to do with Rand when Taim is his man, but thats just semantics). As for the aiel, i think the quote earlier when Dyelin says she will come against him, would make it pretty easy for the aiel to find them. All they have to do is wait for them to come. I don't think that the aiel are magic, yet any threat posed to the city of Caemlyn would be dealt with swiftly. They don't have to hunt down anybody. Rand's intention was to not conquer Andor, and so made no attempt to solidify the entire country. Dyelin ruled in Rand's 'absence' because he believed she was the only one who would rule in Elayne's name. Hence him giving Elayne the throne, aka appointing someone to rule in her name. (dont tell me he didn't appoint her, because he allowed her to rule) That he didn't rule all of Andor is true, but that doesn't mean he didn't 'hold' Caemlyn. He can be considered to have given her the throne and the city by the fact that a. he outed Ravhin, b. secured and pacified the city., and c. named a temporary ruler to administor the city until her return.

P.s. Dyelin ruled in Elayne's name, because to have named her steward of the dragon would have been admitting that it was a conquered land and he would then have been forced to give the aiel their fifth.

Not to mention that Elayne herself remarks that she is mad at Rand for conquering Caemlyn, saying he has no right, but then thinking to herself enough might made right, which is my entire point. Rand 'conquered' Caemlyn and there was no force capable or willing to evict him from the city. Also an argument for how he gave her the throne.

 

As a student of history, i am well aware what the word regent means, and in no way did i ever say that elayne was regent. Also how was Dyelin the Regent for Elayne, since she had not yet been crowned queen, and according to your definition a regent must administer the state in the name of a monarch?In fact by your definition the only way Dyelin could have been Elayne's regent was if Elayne gained the throne when Rand said it was hers(aka him giving her the throne)?

[Suttree]

I have a question. If another claimant had arrived in Caemlyn before Elayne would they have occupied the palace, or is that Elayne's right as Daughter Heir until the secession is decided?

[GregDietzFla]

I have a question. If another claimant had arrived in Caemlyn before Elayne would they have occupied the palace, or is that Elayne's right as Daughter Heir until the secession is decided?

 

I would imagine that they would have occupied the palace, just not sat on the Lion Throne, until the sucession was complete. But in all honesty if another claimant had arrived before Elayne, they would have been stuck outside the walls, as they would have been a rival to the will of the Dragon. Keep in mind Caemlyn was under the control of Ravhin, until Rand killed him, then under Rands control.

[Suttree]

I have a question. If another claimant had arrived in Caemlyn before Elayne would they have occupied the palace, or is that Elayne's right as Daughter Heir until the secession is decided?

 

I would imagine that they would have occupied the palace, just not sat on the Lion Throne, until the sucession was complete. But in all honesty if another claimant had arrived before Elayne, they would have been stuck outside the walls, as they would have been a rival to the will of the Dragon. Keep in mind Caemlyn was under the control of Ravhin, until Rand killed him, then under Rands control.

 

But wasn't Rand trapped in a box having been kidnapped when Elayne arrived in Caemlyn? In addition his forces, including Bashere clearly state they can not help Elayne.

 

I don't understand why people continue to put forth that Rand handed Elayne Caemlyn, when the characters in the story specifically say he did not and could not give it to her. In fact Dyelin wouldn't have supported Trakand at that very first meeting if Elayne had believed Rand could hand her the Lion Throne(I have quoted this earlier in the thread). I know people have put forth speculation as to why RJ wrote it this way but what can't be disputed is that he did.

[SuperFade]

1. Rand defeated Rahvin and occupied Caemlyn. This is not debateable.

2. Rand placed the Lion Throne on a pedestal and set up his own throne in its stead. This is not debateable.

3. Rand held court in Caemlyn, running the country himself until his chosen candidate for the throne returned. This is not debateable.

4. Rand uses his Aiel to keep the peace in Caemlyn, enforcing law and order as a policing force. This is not debateable.

5. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He breaks all bonds and traditions. This is not debateable.

 

 

Taking all the above into account, Rand rules Caemlyn. He can do what he wants with it. It doesn't matter that he is a man, because he breaks all bonds. With Trakand out of favour with all the major noble houses, it is highly unlikely that Elayne would rule in Andor without Rand's help. He keeps the throne free for her and basically rules in her place. The Andoran heavyweights oppose Trakand due to Morgase's actions against them, and Dyelin is the only Elayne loyalist among them. If Rand hadn't made it quite clear that he wanted Elayne on the throne then either Dyelin would have been forcibly elected or one of the others would have taken the throne in her place.

 

The fact of the matter is that Rand outed Rahvin and then set up shop in Caemlyn. We can argue incessantly about the semantics of the process and whether or not Rand was a 'liberator' rather than a 'conqueror', but at the end of the day, he was the one in power until Elayne returned. Such words are difficult to pin down anyway, even in the real world.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

1. Rand defeated Rahvin and occupied Caemlyn. This is not debateable.

2. Rand placed the Lion Throne on a pedestal and set up his own throne in its stead. This is not debateable.

3. Rand held court in Caemlyn, running the country himself until his chosen candidate for the throne returned. This is not debateable.

4. Rand uses his Aiel to keep the peace in Caemlyn, enforcing law and order as a policing force. This is not debateable.

5. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He breaks all bonds and traditions. This is not debateable.

 

 

Taking all the above into account, Rand rules Caemlyn. He can do what he wants with it. It doesn't matter that he is a man, because he breaks all bonds. With Trakand out of favour with all the major noble houses, it is highly unlikely that Elayne would rule in Andor without Rand's help. He keeps the throne free for her and basically rules in her place. The Andoran heavyweights oppose Trakand due to Morgase's actions against them, and Dyelin is the only Elayne loyalist among them. If Rand hadn't made it quite clear that he wanted Elayne on the throne then either Dyelin would have been forcibly elected or one of the others would have taken the throne in her place.

 

The fact of the matter is that Rand outed Rahvin and then set up shop in Caemlyn. We can argue incessantly about the semantics of the process and whether or not Rand was a 'liberator' rather than a 'conqueror', but at the end of the day, he was the one in power until Elayne returned. Such words are difficult to pin down anyway, even in the real world.

 

 

Precisely this. The line of rule in Andor went Morgase => Rand => Elayne.

[randsc]

1. Rand defeated Rahvin and occupied Caemlyn. This is not debateable.

2. Rand placed the Lion Throne on a pedestal and set up his own throne in its stead. This is not debateable.

3. Rand held court in Caemlyn, running the country himself until his chosen candidate for the throne returned. This is not debateable.

4. Rand uses his Aiel to keep the peace in Caemlyn, enforcing law and order as a policing force. This is not debateable.

5. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He breaks all bonds and traditions. This is not debateable.

 

 

Taking all the above into account, Rand rules Caemlyn. He can do what he wants with it. It doesn't matter that he is a man, because he breaks all bonds. With Trakand out of favour with all the major noble houses, it is highly unlikely that Elayne would rule in Andor without Rand's help. He keeps the throne free for her and basically rules in her place. The Andoran heavyweights oppose Trakand due to Morgase's actions against them, and Dyelin is the only Elayne loyalist among them. If Rand hadn't made it quite clear that he wanted Elayne on the throne then either Dyelin would have been forcibly elected or one of the others would have taken the throne in her place.

 

The fact of the matter is that Rand outed Rahvin and then set up shop in Caemlyn. We can argue incessantly about the semantics of the process and whether or not Rand was a 'liberator' rather than a 'conqueror', but at the end of the day, he was the one in power until Elayne returned. Such words are difficult to pin down anyway, even in the real world.

 

 

Precisely this. The line of rule in Andor went Morgase => Rand => Elayne.

 

This is pretty clearly true. I don't know quite why it bothers people so much. The only quibble I would have is that the order should go Morgase => Rahvin => Rand => Elayne.

 

Let's not forget the Rahvin part. Even if the Andoran houses would have united against Rand (unlikely, from the "noble" behavior we have seen), and even if the Andorans could have mustered their forces without the Aiel being aware (impossible, from the Aiel behavior we have see), and even if those Andoran forces actually outnumbered the Aiel (not by the counts I have seen) and even if the typical Andoran soldier was a match, one-on-one, with an Aiel (absurd, given everything we have seen in the series to date)...

 

...even if all of those things had been true...

 

...without Rand, Andor would still be ruled by Rahvin.

 

So yes, Rand "gave" Andor to Elayne, in the sense that she couldn't have taken it without him.

 

That said, Elayne "taking the throne of her own right" isn't mere semantics. It's semantics, but it is more. It was, in the world Jordan wrote, politically advantageous. I don't know that Bashere is right that it is strictly necessary (certainly we have seen characters say things that turn out to be mistaken before now) but it is advantageous.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Elayne is simply spouting some diatribe about "taking the throne in her own right" to garner her own base of support and at least present the illusion of an unbroken line of succession. It's similar to the old "by grace of God" uttered by all of our medieval warlords and aristocracy declaring that they possess and rule because God commands it so and they bask in the glory of the almighty. One shouldn't take it at face value.

[Mr Ares]

OK, so long story short, she can't impose her rule on the BT(Still don't see how it could have NOTHING to do with Rand when Taim is his man, but thats just semantics).

It has nothing to do with Rand because it is Taim's power (the army he commands) that makes him too powerful to command.

As for the aiel, i think the quote earlier when Dyelin says she will come against him, would make it pretty easy for the aiel to find them. All they have to do is wait for them to come. I don't think that the aiel are magic, yet any threat posed to the city of Caemlyn would be dealt with swiftly.

And the rest of Andor? Even if the Andorans decide they can't face the Aiel in open combat, they can still deny whichever puppet the Dragon sticks in Caemlyn anything more than a rump state. Or what about guerilla warfare? You do have to hunt people down. Or outlaw bands (after you break the back of the army - those soldiers have to go somewhere).

Rand's intention was to not conquer Andor, and so made no attempt to solidify the entire country.

If he didn't have the country, how could he give it to Elayne? Tell you what, I'll give you Scotland. I don't own Scotland, it is not within my power to give it to you, I have no lawful authority, but you can have it anyway. That's about as convincing as Rand giving Andor to Elayne. It just did not happen, not in any real sense.

Dyelin ruled in Rand's 'absence' because he believed she was the only one who would rule in Elayne's name.

Elayne loyalists gave her power, not the Dragon.

Hence him giving Elayne the throne, aka appointing someone to rule in her name. (dont tell me he didn't appoint her, because he allowed her to rule)

Well, this is another one of those things you might dismiss as semantics, but in my book there is a difference between appointing someone and not removing someone. He did not give power to Dyelin, he did not appoint her. He might have been able to take it away, and didn't do so, but that is different to appointing someone. Elayne loyalists appointed her.

Rand 'conquered' Caemlyn and there was no force capable or willing to evict him from the city.

Yet he was evicted from the city (or, more accurately, he fled).

 

As a student of history, i am well aware what the word regent means, and in no way did i ever say that elayne was regent.

I never said you did.

Also how was Dyelin the Regent for Elayne,

Take it up with EncyclopaediaWOT, my friend: "When news of Colavaere's coronation reached Andor, other nobles tried to take the throne. She [Dyelin] has them arrested and is made regent in Elayne's name by other nobles loyal to Elayne. (ACoS,Ch7)" She also imprisoned two major rivals to the throne, and this was after Rand had left the country. So it was not Rand keeping the throne open, it was Elayne loyalists.

 

2. Rand placed the Lion Throne on a pedestal and set up his own throne in its stead. This is not debateable.

No, but Rand places himself beneath the Lion Throne as opposed to on it. This is not debateable.

3. Rand held court in Caemlyn, running the country himself until his chosen candidate for the throne returned. This is not debateable.

Rand fled Caemlyn in the face of 13 AS, leaving for Cairhien. 65 days later (the exact number of days might be debateable, but takeit up with Stephen Cooper and his timeline) Elayne arrives in Caemlyn. Dyelin, an Elayne loyalist, is ruling, in Elayne's name and not Rand's. Thus Rand did not control the city. Even if he did, Caemlyn is not Andor. Rand could offer her a foothold at best. She won the country, she wasn't handed it. Rand could give her a city, maybe, but she ended up with a country. A country he didn't have, and never did. Your idea of "not debateable" and mine are clearly not in alignment.

[Suttree]

1. Rand defeated Rahvin and occupied Caemlyn. This is not debateable.

2. Rand placed the Lion Throne on a pedestal and set up his own throne in its stead. This is not debateable.

3. Rand held court in Caemlyn, running the country himself until his chosen candidate for the throne returned. This is not debateable.

4. Rand uses his Aiel to keep the peace in Caemlyn, enforcing law and order as a policing force. This is not debateable.

5. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He breaks all bonds and traditions. This is not debateable.

 

 

Taking all the above into account, Rand rules Caemlyn. He can do what he wants with it. It doesn't matter that he is a man, because he breaks all bonds. With Trakand out of favour with all the major noble houses, it is highly unlikely that Elayne would rule in Andor without Rand's help. He keeps the throne free for her and basically rules in her place. The Andoran heavyweights oppose Trakand due to Morgase's actions against them, and Dyelin is the only Elayne loyalist among them. If Rand hadn't made it quite clear that he wanted Elayne on the throne then either Dyelin would have been forcibly elected or one of the others would have taken the throne in her place.

 

The fact of the matter is that Rand outed Rahvin and then set up shop in Caemlyn. We can argue incessantly about the semantics of the process and whether or not Rand was a 'liberator' rather than a 'conqueror', but at the end of the day, he was the one in power until Elayne returned. Such words are difficult to pin down anyway, even in the real world.

 

 

Precisely this. The line of rule in Andor went Morgase => Rand => Elayne.

 

Not really correct.

 

Queen Morgase => Lord Gaebril => Rand as Regent(set Dragon chair below Lion throne) => Dyelin as Regent => Queen Elayne

 

As Mr Ares mentioned 65 days pass with Dyelin as regent and Bashere and Rand's forces outside of the city. As we know from Bashere's pov he is not going to allow Rand's forces to help in the secession. Rand stabilized the country in the aftermath of a Forsaken attack and left a power vacuum in which Elayne took the throne. No one argues he made it easier, but to say he handed the throne to her is to ignore facts from the story.

[randsc]

Don't confuse the Andoran noble houses with, "the rest of Andor." We've been given no particular reason to believe that the Andoran populace would embrace a guerilla war against the Dragon Reborn.

 

The presence of, "Queen's Men" like Gill implies that there is another faction, that wraps different pretty ribbons around their scabards. So even in Caemlyn itself (and nothing we saw in Andor before Caemlyn suggests that anyone at all outseide of the capital cares about dynastic politics) half of the population was willing to do without a Queen.

 

Also, men were apparently willing to join the Queen's Guard while swearing to Andor, not the Queen. Which is as it should be, of course. Even the Foresaken can get some things right.

[randsc]

Also, let's not forget that without Rahvin's death, Elayne might have assumed the throne on her own.

 

Several decades from now, following the death from natural causes of Rahvin's plaything, the former Queen Morgase. And even that is assuming that Rahvin didn't simply off Morgase.

 

Without Rand, Elayne would not be Queen. Elayne is Queen because Rand wants her to be. If, in A Crown of Swords, Rand had disapproved of Dyelin's actions, she would be on a farm somewhere. I don't see a significant difference, except the political advantage discussed earlier, between Rand giving Elayne the throne and Rand allowing and encouraging Elayne's loyalists to give her the throne.

 

In fact, one of the more iritating things about Elayne is that she doesn't give Rand proper credit for respecting her political position, and allowing things to develop as they did.

[moratcorlm]

5. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He breaks all bonds and traditions. This is not debateable.

Well, certainly sound legal reasoning you have there.

Without Rand, Elayne would not be Queen. Elayne is Queen because Rand wants her to be.

This does not follow. (Is this a version of divine right to you, since Rand is Jesus?)

[SuperFade]

Well, certainly sound legal reasoning you have there.

 

Not really, just innumerable prophecies and fortellings. If you have something useful to say then please do so.

[randsc]

5. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He breaks all bonds and traditions. This is not debateable.

Well, certainly sound legal reasoning you have there.

Without Rand, Elayne would not be Queen. Elayne is Queen because Rand wants her to be.

This does not follow. (Is this a version of divine right to you, since Rand is Jesus?)

 

It has nothing to do with divine right, and everything to do with power politics.

 

Without Rand, Elayne would not be involved in any sort of succession struggle, because Morgase would still be Queen. And in thrall to one of the Foresaken. Indisputable, yes?

 

If Rand had wanted to make someone else Queen, or even if he hadn't cared much one way or the other, someone else would be Queen. He could have easily removed Dyelin and sent her to a farm. If he had annouced that Morgase's crimes made Trankand an unacceptable choice for the throne, he may well have garnered significant support among the nobles. But he could have done it, with the nobles or without them.

 

Elayne scored the goal. After Rand knocked the goaltender unconscious. Sure, Elayne had to be sure not to trip over her own feet, but that's about it. You can see that as a demonstration of Elayne's athletic prowess if you wish, but don't expect everyone to see it that way.

 

And Rand isn't Jesus, but he is in fact a Messiah figure, influenced by many in the history of our world, including Jesus.

[Suttree]

5. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He breaks all bonds and traditions. This is not debateable.

Well, certainly sound legal reasoning you have there.

Without Rand, Elayne would not be Queen. Elayne is Queen because Rand wants her to be.

This does not follow. (Is this a version of divine right to you, since Rand is Jesus?)

 

It has nothing to do with divine right, and everything to do with power politics.

 

Without Rand, Elayne would not be involved in any sort of succession struggle, because Morgase would still be Queen. And in thrall to one of the Foresaken. Indisputable, yes?

 

If Rand had wanted to make someone else Queen, or even if he hadn't cared much one way or the other, someone else would be Queen. He could have easily removed Dyelin and sent her to a farm. If he had annouced that Morgase's crimes made Trankand an unacceptable choice for the throne, he may well have garnered significant support among the nobles. But he could have done it, with the nobles or without them.

 

Elayne scored the goal. After Rand knocked the goaltender unconscious. Sure, Elayne had to be sure not to trip over her own feet, but that's about it. You can see that as a demonstration of Elayne's athletic prowess if you wish, but don't expect everyone to see it that way.

 

And Rand isn't Jesus, but he is in fact a Messiah figure, influenced by many in the history of our world, including Jesus.

 

Why do you keep mentioning Rand possibly removing Dyelin and sending her to a farm? We have seen this only once in the story and that was what he did to a murderer. Let's try and keep the topic to what happened in the story not hypothetical what ifs? In the story it was made clear that if Rand showed any inclination to hold the throne Dyelin would mobilize the nobles and move against him.

[randsc]

5. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He breaks all bonds and traditions. This is not debateable.

Well, certainly sound legal reasoning you have there.

Without Rand, Elayne would not be Queen. Elayne is Queen because Rand wants her to be.

This does not follow. (Is this a version of divine right to you, since Rand is Jesus?)

 

It has nothing to do with divine right, and everything to do with power politics.

 

Without Rand, Elayne would not be involved in any sort of succession struggle, because Morgase would still be Queen. And in thrall to one of the Foresaken. Indisputable, yes?

 

If Rand had wanted to make someone else Queen, or even if he hadn't cared much one way or the other, someone else would be Queen. He could have easily removed Dyelin and sent her to a farm. If he had annouced that Morgase's crimes made Trankand an unacceptable choice for the throne, he may well have garnered significant support among the nobles. But he could have done it, with the nobles or without them.

 

Elayne scored the goal. After Rand knocked the goaltender unconscious. Sure, Elayne had to be sure not to trip over her own feet, but that's about it. You can see that as a demonstration of Elayne's athletic prowess if you wish, but don't expect everyone to see it that way.

 

And Rand isn't Jesus, but he is in fact a Messiah figure, influenced by many in the history of our world, including Jesus.

 

Why do you keep mentioning Rand possibly removing Dyelin and sending her to a farm? We have seen this only once in the story and that was what he did to a murderer. Let's try and keep the topic to what happened in the story not hypothetical what ifs? In the story it was made clear that if Rand showed any inclination to hold the throne Dyelin would mobilize the nobles and move against him.

 

Because Rand himself mentioned the possibility.

 

Rand waved that away with the empty goblet. “Tell me about Dyelin.” Dyelin of House Taravin would be next in line for the throne should anything happen to Elayne, but he had told her he was having Elayne brought to Caemlyn. “If she thinks she can take the Lion Throne, I can find a farm for her, too.”

 

She wasn't taking the Lion Throne, she was holding it for Elayne, so Rand allowed her to continue, rather than exiling her to a farm. I would say it is clear from the text that Rand had the power to hold the throne if so inclined, and the power to remove Dyelin if he were so inclined.

[Fel]

As for the aiel, i think the quote earlier when Dyelin says she will come against him, would make it pretty easy for the aiel to find them. All they have to do is wait for them to come. I don't think that the aiel are magic, yet any threat posed to the city of Caemlyn would be dealt with swiftly.

And the rest of Andor? Even if the Andorans decide they can't face the Aiel in open combat, they can still deny whichever puppet the Dragon sticks in Caemlyn anything more than a rump state. Or what about guerilla warfare? You do have to hunt people down. Or outlaw bands (after you break the back of the army - those soldiers have to go somewhere).

The people of Andor were upset that the Dragon was occupying the land (in PoD as elayne is marching home), but they are not organized and seriously talking about attacking him. They are just complaining... Also, outlaw bands did not do very well against the Aiel in Cairhein (where they were rampant during the civil war until the aiel tracked them all down and killed them). There really was no real threat of taking camelyn away from the Aiel/Bashere.

 

Rand's intention was to not conquer Andor, and so made no attempt to solidify the entire country.

If he didn't have the country, how could he give it to Elayne? Tell you what, I'll give you Scotland. I don't own Scotland, it is not within my power to give it to you, I have no lawful authority, but you can have it anyway. That's about as convincing as Rand giving Andor to Elayne. It just did not happen, not in any real sense.

I'll tell you what. If you can take your army, replace the Scottish Army, fill the capital with your troops, and are the one providing security at the royal palace, I'll happily accept Scotland from you. As long as I don't have to eat haggus. thank you for the gift.

 

Rand 'conquered' Caemlyn and there was no force capable or willing to evict him from the city.

Yet he was evicted from the city (or, more accurately, he fled).

Actually, all of his forces stayed. He personally left and put someone else in charge, but the people with the guns (or spears in this case) were his forces. The man with the army is in charge.

 

3. Rand held court in Caemlyn, running the country himself until his chosen candidate for the throne returned. This is not debateable.

Rand fled Caemlyn in the face of 13 AS, leaving for Cairhien. 65 days later (the exact number of days might be debateable, but takeit up with Stephen Cooper and his timeline) Elayne arrives in Caemlyn. Dyelin, an Elayne loyalist, is ruling, in Elayne's name and not Rand's. Thus Rand did not control the city. Even if he did, Caemlyn is not Andor. Rand could offer her a foothold at best. She won the country, she wasn't handed it. Rand could give her a city, maybe, but she ended up with a country. A country he didn't have, and never did. Your idea of "not debateable" and mine are clearly not in alignment.

Yes, she did some things on her own. But, she never would have had the ability without the Saldaens and Aiel holding the capital city for her. Even she admits that holding Camelyn is the key to holding Andor.

 

And, when she comes back (after being admitted by the 'palace guards' consisting of Aiel Maidens and Legion of the Dragon), she quickly asks them to leave (which they do because Rand intended the throne for her).

 

Then, she realizes that she does not have enough people to even keep the peace in the streets, never mind man the walls. And, there was no way she could possibly have forced out the Aiel/Legion if they did not want to leave (i.e. if they were not just holding the city until they could give it to her).

 

You can say that Dyelin ruled, but how exactly would she have ruled anything without any troops to speak of? She was running the place with the grace of the army provided by Rand. Without that army, she does not have enough to hold the capital or to do much of anything.

 

I think we are at an impasse. If you cannot believe that Elayne would not have won the throne without holding Camelyn, and that the army that was holding Camelyn was the Dragon's army, and, therefore Elayne only got the throne because the Dragon held it for her... I think more back and forth will lead to nowhere. And, frankly, I HATED path of daggers and Winter's heart and now I've had to re-read parts of them to verify my memory :-)

[Suttree]

5. Rand is the Dragon Reborn. He breaks all bonds and traditions. This is not debateable.

Well, certainly sound legal reasoning you have there.

Without Rand, Elayne would not be Queen. Elayne is Queen because Rand wants her to be.

This does not follow. (Is this a version of divine right to you, since Rand is Jesus?)

 

It has nothing to do with divine right, and everything to do with power politics.

 

Without Rand, Elayne would not be involved in any sort of succession struggle, because Morgase would still be Queen. And in thrall to one of the Foresaken. Indisputable, yes?

 

If Rand had wanted to make someone else Queen, or even if he hadn't cared much one way or the other, someone else would be Queen. He could have easily removed Dyelin and sent her to a farm. If he had annouced that Morgase's crimes made Trankand an unacceptable choice for the throne, he may well have garnered significant support among the nobles. But he could have done it, with the nobles or without them.

 

Elayne scored the goal. After Rand knocked the goaltender unconscious. Sure, Elayne had to be sure not to trip over her own feet, but that's about it. You can see that as a demonstration of Elayne's athletic prowess if you wish, but don't expect everyone to see it that way.

 

And Rand isn't Jesus, but he is in fact a Messiah figure, influenced by many in the history of our world, including Jesus.

 

Why do you keep mentioning Rand possibly removing Dyelin and sending her to a farm? We have seen this only once in the story and that was what he did to a murderer. Let's try and keep the topic to what happened in the story not hypothetical what ifs? In the story it was made clear that if Rand showed any inclination to hold the throne Dyelin would mobilize the nobles and move against him.

 

Because Rand himself mentioned the possibility.

 

Rand waved that away with the empty goblet. “Tell me about Dyelin.” Dyelin of House Taravin would be next in line for the throne should anything happen to Elayne, but he had told her he was having Elayne brought to Caemlyn. “If she thinks she can take the Lion Throne, I can find a farm for her, too.”

 

She wasn't taking the Lion Throne, she was holding it for Elayne, so Rand allowed her to continue, rather than exiling her to a farm. I would say it is clear from the text that Rand had the power to hold the throne if so inclined, and the power to remove Dyelin if he were so inclined.

 

 

Here is how Rand in his own words views his place in Andor, def not the words of a conqueror or one who is inclined to hold the throne.

 

LoC ch 16

"I will not welcome you-this is your land, and the palace of your Queen"

 

What you fail to do with the quote above is finish that line...yes Rand mentions it and then realized immediately how wrong he was.

 

“Take the throne?” Deira said incredulously, and her husband laughed out loud.

 

“I have no understanding of wetlander ways,” Bael said, “but I do not think that is what she has done.”

 

“Far from it.” Davram carried the pitcher over to pour more punch for Rand. “Some lesser lords and ladies who thought to curry favor proclaimed for her at Aringill. She moves quickly, Lady Dyelin. Within four days she had the two leaders hanged, for treason to the Daughter-Heir Elayne, and ordered another twenty flogged.” He chuckled approvingly. His wife sniffed. Likely she would have had the road lined with gibbets all the way from Aringill to Caemlyn

 

and Dyelin has this to say if Rand is inclined to keep the throne.

 

LoC Ch16

"But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in cairhein or tear.......then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." "and I will ride beside you," Luan said firmly. "And I," Ellorian said, echoed by Abelle.

 

What is clear from the text is that if Rand was inclined to do any of the possibilities you mention(which he wasn't...not even a remote chance...ever...so you are still dealing in what ifs), Andor would have risen against him.

[randsc]

No one disputes that several of the noble houses would have tried to rise against him.

 

What is in question is 1.) How many; and 2.) How effectively.

 

I maintain that the answer to 1 is "less than all" and the answer to 2 is "not at all."

 

I also maintain that there is a difference between the nobles caring and the population caring. So no, it is not clear at all that, "Andor" would have risen against him.

 

In any case, it doesn't matter, since as you say, that was never his intent. The fact remains that Elayne wouldn't be Queen without him. I really don't understand why some people find that notion so offensive. It is clearly true.

 

Personally, I don't have a lot of patience for dynastic rule, or lines of descent from Ishara, or the alleged legal right of any person to exercise near-absolute authority over the life of another. Princesses hold no fascination for me. Bring on the guillotine. Or at least the Magna Carta.

[Fel]

LoC Ch16

"But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in cairhein or tear.......then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." "and I will ride beside you," Luan said firmly. "And I," Ellorian said, echoed by Abelle.

 

What is clear from the text is that if Rand was inclined to do any of the possibilities you mention(which he wasn't...not even a remote chance...ever...so you are still dealing in what ifs), Andor would have risen against him.

Correct. Rand was not trying to be king of Andor. He was just giving the throne to Elayne. He used his power and muscle to hold the seat open and hold the capital until such time as Elayne could be bothered to come claim it. Dyelin and Elayne combined did not have enough power to hold the capital city and keep it secure after Elayne made her claim (i.e. Dyelin would not have been able to hold things on her own). The only reason that the capital was Elayne's for the taking was that Rand's forces held it for her.

[Suttree]

LoC Ch16

"But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in cairhein or tear.......then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." "and I will ride beside you," Luan said firmly. "And I," Ellorian said, echoed by Abelle.

 

What is clear from the text is that if Rand was inclined to do any of the possibilities you mention(which he wasn't...not even a remote chance...ever...so you are still dealing in what ifs), Andor would have risen against him.

Correct. Rand was not trying to be king of Andor. He was just giving the throne to Elayne. He used his power and muscle to hold the seat open and hold the capital until such time as Elayne could be bothered to come claim it. Dyelin and Elayne combined did not have enough power to hold the capital city and keep it secure after Elayne made her claim (i.e. Dyelin would not have been able to hold things on her own). The only reason that the capital was Elayne's for the taking was that Rand's forces held it for her.

 

Funny because that is exactly what they did...without the help from the nobles that initially were supporting Dyelin or Bashere and Rand's forces who were camped outside the city. In fact Bashere states the reasons why they can't help Elayne.

 

Personally, I don't have a lot of patience for dynastic rule, or lines of descent from Ishara, or the alleged legal right of any person to exercise near-absolute authority over the life of another. Princesses hold no fascination for me.

 

 

But the people of Andor do when it comes to descent from Ishara.

 

Removed.

[randsc]

LoC Ch16

"But if time passes and you still reign here, or if your Aiel savages do here what I've heard they did in cairhein or tear.......then I will come against you, whether anyone else in Andor does the same." "and I will ride beside you," Luan said firmly. "And I," Ellorian said, echoed by Abelle.

 

What is clear from the text is that if Rand was inclined to do any of the possibilities you mention(which he wasn't...not even a remote chance...ever...so you are still dealing in what ifs), Andor would have risen against him.

Correct. Rand was not trying to be king of Andor. He was just giving the throne to Elayne. He used his power and muscle to hold the seat open and hold the capital until such time as Elayne could be bothered to come claim it. Dyelin and Elayne combined did not have enough power to hold the capital city and keep it secure after Elayne made her claim (i.e. Dyelin would not have been able to hold things on her own). The only reason that the capital was Elayne's for the taking was that Rand's forces held it for her.

 

Funny because that is exactly what they did...without the help from the nobles that initially were supporting Dyelin or Bashere and Rand's forces who were camped outside the city. In fact Bashere states the reasons why they can't help Elayne.

 

Personally, I don't have a lot of patience for dynastic rule, or lines of descent from Ishara, or the alleged legal right of any person to exercise near-absolute authority over the life of another.

 

But the people of Andor do when it comes to descent from Ishara.

 

As for the rest this excludes your precious Dragon reborn I assume.

 

This whole, "If you disagree with me, you must be a Rand fanboi" thing is really tiresome. If it matters, Rand isn't among my 5 most favorite characters.

 

We have no evidence that the lines of descent from Ishara matter to the common people of Andor, only the noble houses. All of which can trace lines of descent from Ishara. Convenient, that.

[haloun]

Firstly, I do have to note my surprise at Perrin's apparent sex change.

queen consort does not mean he got a sex change it means he is the queens lover, that said it was still the wrong choice of words.

 

on to the subject... I am always surprised by the way everyone seems to pick apart this series, it is like half the people on the forums actually believe it is happening, and that it is really this world. it is a story. the author can make whatever he wants to happen... happen. if you want the reasons for what she did again go read the book. yes Rand conquered Andor, and then "gave" the throne to her. it happens sometime that someone will "conquer" a land just to free it for their ally, they then relinquish the throne to the rightful ruler and leave it alone. much like Rand did. the ruler of that country can then give any section of his/her land to the "conquerer" as recompense for what they did, just as Elayne now has. as for Perrin being a lord of the land. Elayne would be well to remember that it wasnt even half an age ago that her ancestors were farmers or some such as well. they happened to be friends with artur hawking, or rather his best general, and because of MILITARY MIGHT they become "noble" nobility when it all started was granted to those who could and would be protectors. her mother gave the two rivers up all by herself when she allowed not only an army of trollocs to invade but also an army of whitecloaks. the trollocs were just an added offense, but when the whitecloaks marched through all of andor to get to the two rivers, and started arresting morgases citizens and she just let it happen... she gave up all right for andor to rule the two rivers. the people rose up and protected themselves under the leadership of one of their own. the same way the original queen of andor protected her people at the first and slowly gained land. now the current queen has forgotten what true nobility really means and is going to remove the title of lord from perrin and his bloodline. but what does she think will happen when trollocs invade again? and this time the TR has to fund their defense alone, they will start paying "taxes" to the current "steward" of the TR, no ones blood is any bluer than any one elses, this is why feudalism allowed for the knighting of NEW nobility after certain feats of valor, she should have raised perrin to a level of lord or knight or something like that, and set a precedence for it as a anyone who cares more for the lives of others more than their own enough to do this.....(set forth requirements that are rather difficult but not impossible) will be henceforth titled such and such (equivilent to arthurian knight-hood title) so let it be written etc... the nobles could not argue with her. especially when she points out that they themselves come from similar stock. the new titles would be lesser nobility, and would have no claim to the throne unless through marriage, but they would still have the respect due, and ideally would likely be more along the lines of marshal general material, IE the queens must follow one line, the generals must follow another. think if she used someone who was used to fighting as her commander of the armies, instead of a prince who is used to sitting in a cushion. the prince would still be trained in combat out of necessity but he would be the diplomat/ambassador instead of the master mind leading the armies, just as the queen doesnt charge out it in the front lines anymore she wouldnt be losing her brother. and the people would have a better respect for the leader of the armies. the whole idea that one bloodline is better than another and that no one can be noble unless they come from a specific line is the very reason why the feudalist nations empires all failed. they snubbed a great general who wasnt "noble" and he retaliated. for that matter, Rand is the only one who really knows about his heritage, so while the irony is that he has rights to a title already she chose to raise one peasant as a noble and not another, and the raising was based on military might. he is now an emperor so i guess we grant him the title of nobility over the land of his birth, instead of this other person who is protecting that same land, has proven the more competent in battle, and already has the allegiance of all the people there, so much so they forced him to accept a title and lands and power from their own hands when he refused over and over and over again. and you say she was right to do so because if perrin can become a lord simply by claiming it than why cant anyone else? rand has done the same thing. true he has "noble blood" but no one knows that. so it is kind of a double standard.