Oh Egwene Thoust Ego Is So Big

[Nooska]

Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

Consensus in the Perrin thread ended up at him not becoming a lord in his own right, so he rules the two rivers in Rand's name, thus he is subject to Rand (Pro Forma, clearly from the agreement) but not to Elayne. The Andoran responsibilites of the Two Rivers is a matter between Rand and Elayne - and clearly not something where there are actual restrictions on the self governance of the Two Rivers under Rand by Perrin.

Ghealdan's queen has sworn to Perrin - not to Rand, and not to Perrin as Steward, but Perrin personally - Elayne cannot command Ghealdan, and only has Ghealdanin troops insofar as Perrin asks Ghealdan to provide them.

Due to this, combined with Elayne only having 2 countries (in reality minus the Two Rivers), and Perrin being married to the probable next Queen of Saldaea (Davram Bashere is older than Tenobia, and Tenobia has no kids, and - iirc - are not expected to ever marry) and Saldaea being a co-rulership per the glossary, Perrin is definately above Elayne on the powerscore meter.

Elayne, really doesn't have a lot of clount unless the dragon lands split up from their alliance.

 

Post TG, Post Rand, The blocks are (before movement or further agreements) in no particular order

 

1) Saldaea, Two Rivers, Ghealdan

2) Illian, Tear

3) Mayene + the Children

4) Shienar, Kandor, Arafel

5) Seanchan controlled territories

6) Andor, Cairhien

 

After this we have the independant states / powers

 

Tar Valon, Murandy, Far Madding and the country north of Tarabon (my memory fails me right now)

 

Malkier could be a player dependant on the way things go, but I'll exclude it for now due to the "what if"'s being applicable to any future event.

I don't think I have forgotten any alliances by marriage to heirs apparent.

 

Of all these, the Two Rivers crew is in charge of 1, 5(consensus argument for Prince of Ravens)) and TV directly / by co rulership.

[Nooska]

True, Dark-Rand does face Tuon, but until they face each other again, the record still stands

 

Tuon: 1-0

Rand: 0-1

 

I agree. Rand in TOM changes this though. Light Rand is > Tuon. Tuon + Egwene > Light Rand though. Tis' one reason Egwene and Tuon will form an alliance to oppose Rand breaking the seals it would seem - Egwene's going to fail at FOM and try again a second time with Tuon.

You keep saying this, I have yet to see you produce any support, whatsoever, apart from your own interpetation of several (some vague) dreams summing up. Egwene/Tuon alliance is about the most unlikely alliance you could fin in Randland - even more unlikely than the original posited "LCC marrying the Amyrlin Seat" saying.

[gambril]

True, Dark-Rand does face Tuon, but until they face each other again, the record still stands

 

Tuon: 1-0

Rand: 0-1

 

I agree. Rand in TOM changes this though. Light Rand is > Tuon. Tuon + Egwene > Light Rand though. Tis' one reason Egwene and Tuon will form an alliance to oppose Rand breaking the seals it would seem - Egwene's going to fail at FOM and try again a second time with Tuon.

You keep saying this, I have yet to see you produce any support, whatsoever, apart from your own interpetation of several (some vague) dreams summing up. Egwene/Tuon alliance is about the most unlikely alliance you could fin in Randland - even more unlikely than the original posited "LCC marrying the Amyrlin Seat" saying.

 

My link Read post #17. That's my most up to date version of how FOM is going to play out. Get back to me after you've read it.

 

If the link doesn't work, it's over on Theoryland - Towers of Midnight Forums - Egwene's Dream and Seanchan Woman - post #17 = most up to date version of FOM event.

[Nygma7]

Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

Pretty simple, Perrin is Alliandre's liege lord, and Elayne is now Perrin's liege lady. If Alliandre's nation is attacked, Perrin is obliged to come to her defense, and if Perrin needs troops or resources, Alliandre is bound to provide them. Same thing between Perrin and Elayne, and by extension Elayne and Alliandre. If Andor goes to war, the Two Rivers will be called up, and if the Two Rivers is called up, Ghealdan will be called up. If Ghealdan is attacked, Perrin is bound to come to its defense, and so is Elayne.

 

 

With respect to Tuon vs Rand being 1-0, that's kinda like saying Mat vs Tuon in stones stands in Mat's favor, so Mat is a more powerful ruler than Tuon. Tuon is 1-0 against Rand in terms of sheer willpower vs ta'veren pattern warping. Has nothing to do with the number and kind of armies, channelers, resources, and allies each can call up.

[gambril]

Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

Consensus in the Perrin thread ended up at him not becoming a lord in his own right, so he rules the two rivers in Rand's name, thus he is subject to Rand (Pro Forma, clearly from the agreement) but not to Elayne. The Andoran responsibilites of the Two Rivers is a matter between Rand and Elayne - and clearly not something where there are actual restrictions on the self governance of the Two Rivers under Rand by Perrin.

Ghealdan's queen has sworn to Perrin - not to Rand, and not to Perrin as Steward, but Perrin personally - Elayne cannot command Ghealdan, and only has Ghealdanin troops insofar as Perrin asks Ghealdan to provide them.

Due to this, combined with Elayne only having 2 countries (in reality minus the Two Rivers), and Perrin being married to the probable next Queen of Saldaea (Davram Bashere is older than Tenobia, and Tenobia has no kids, and - iirc - are not expected to ever marry) and Saldaea being a co-rulership per the glossary, Perrin is definately above Elayne on the powerscore meter.

Elayne, really doesn't have a lot of clount unless the dragon lands split up from their alliance.

 

Post TG, Post Rand, The blocks are (before movement or further agreements) in no particular order

 

1) Saldaea, Two Rivers, Ghealdan

2) Illian, Tear

3) Mayene + the Children

4) Shienar, Kandor, Arafel

5) Seanchan controlled territories

6) Andor, Cairhien

 

After this we have the independant states / powers

 

Tar Valon, Murandy, Far Madding and the country north of Tarabon (my memory fails me right now)

 

Malkier could be a player dependant on the way things go, but I'll exclude it for now due to the "what if"'s being applicable to any future event.

I don't think I have forgotten any alliances by marriage to heirs apparent.

 

Of all these, the Two Rivers crew is in charge of 1, 5(consensus argument for Prince of Ravens)) and TV directly / by co rulership.

 

WOw you're right. I've been thinking ever since I read TOM that Perrin got sucked in by Elayne, but he didn't. As you said, it was more an alliance due to the Two Rivers belonging to Rand and being an independent state. I didn't think about that. Perrin is a powerful player. ...And Elayne thought to execute the guy *headdeask*.

 

Thankyou Morgase for the well timed, "You do not want to go against this man."

[sleepinghour]

At this point it's Rand > Tuon > Egwene. Rand and Tuon have the largest military forces and can do whatever they want without needing anyone's consent or worry about losing their position. Egwene can at any time be unseated by the Hall.

 

I think it's too early to tell how things will be after the Last Battle. If we go by Aviendha's visions of the future, the Seanchan will only gain more power and the Tower eventually fall to them, although not under Tuon's rule. Neither Elayne or her daughter seem to have lived very long either since Andor is ruled by her granddaughter Talana. So, to get back to that list of the most powerful people:

 

Rand - Dies young.

Tuon - Dies young.

Egwene - If alive, she'll either be collared or on the run from the Seanchan.

Elayne - Dies young.

[Nooska]

Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

Pretty simple, Perrin is Alliandre's liege lord, and Elayne is now Perrin's liege lady.

Perrin has not sworn fealty to Elayne, and indeed is not required to as he serves TDR as steward of his land. What he personally can call upon has NO bearing on Rand's (and by extension, Perrin's as steward) obligations towards the Andoran Throne - I refer to how littlecontrol Elayne has to command the armsmen of the other lords and ladies of Andor - i.e. none - and the fact that Rand is a higher hierarchical lord than the existing as he is made High Lord of TTR.

 

That being said, I have no doubt that Perrin will marshal all his forces if the cause is just and Elayne asks rather than tries to command.

[Mats Spare Hat]

Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

Pretty simple, Perrin is Alliandre's liege lord, and Elayne is now Perrin's liege lady. If Alliandre's nation is attacked, Perrin is obliged to come to her defense, and if Perrin needs troops or resources, Alliandre is bound to provide them. Same thing between Perrin and Elayne, and by extension Elayne and Alliandre. If Andor goes to war, the Two Rivers will be called up, and if the Two Rivers is called up, Ghealdan will be called up. If Ghealdan is attacked, Perrin is bound to come to its defense, and so is Elayne.

 

 

With respect to Tuon vs Rand being 1-0, that's kinda like saying Mat vs Tuon in stones stands in Mat's favor, so Mat is a more powerful ruler than Tuon. Tuon is 1-0 against Rand in terms of sheer willpower vs ta'veren pattern warping. Has nothing to do with the number and kind of armies, channelers, resources, and allies each can call up.

 

 

You're right, it doesn't have anything to do with the number & kind of armies, channelers, resources, or allies they can call upon. Tuon being 1-0 over Rand has everything to do with the two of them facing each other literally, 1 on 1, in the purest sense, on the political battlefield. Tuon won.

 

Mat plays Stones many times with Tuon, so we're given a bigger sample size for which to reference their Stones playing ability, only.

 

There's no way around it. It's the only time we've seen Tuon vs. Rand, sans proxies, armies, what have you beyond their own wits/force of will or what have you, or in Rand's case wits and ta'varen-ness, so it's not even a level playing field, and Tuon still wins. You could bring up armies, allies, abilities all but at the end of the day it doesn't change the outcome of the only matchup we've been given between the two.

 

Rand(after the fact): Well, I've still got better armies, with channelers, and cool allies. Plus I've changed since that first time, and I'm better - even though we haven't faced off head to head, so I can say that with actual results in my favor to back it up.

Tuon: Scoreboard

Rand: Buh-buh-buh buuuuhhh

Tuon: Scoreboard.

 

Rand might have all of those other things at his disposal, but it still doesn't change the outcome of the referenced encounter, the only direct face to face political encounter(so far), on the most personal and basic level, between he and Tuon. So until there's another meeting, a Tuon vs. Rand II, Rumble in the Rahad or whatever you want to call it, Tuon's 1-up on Rand in the political game.

[Nygma7]

Not sure where the idea that the Two Rivers is an independent state came from. It was made pretty clear in ToM that all the involved parties agreed that the Two Rivers is still part of Andor.

 

Elayne got creative with the bookkeeping to placate the other nobles, but the result is that - legally - she gives the Two Rivers to Rand (who grew up as an unknowing subject of Andor and is not only the Dragon Reborn but the Queen's... consort?... and liberator of Andor) as his seat IN ANDOR, which in turn he "gives" to his best buddy Perrin to rule.

 

Cutting through the legal mumbo jumbo, the upshot is that Perrin rules the Two Rivers as a High Lord of Andor (the *only* high lord) and as Elayne's subject.

 

The Two Rivers is now confirmed as a province of Andor.

[Nooska]

Not sure where the idea that the Two Rivers is an independent state came from. It was made pretty clear in ToM that all the involved parties agreed that the Two Rivers is still part of Andor.

 

Elayne got creative with the bookkeeping to placate the other nobles, but the result is that - legally - she gives the Two Rivers to Rand (who grew up as an unknowing subject of Andor and is not only the Dragon Reborn but the Queen's... consort?... and liberator of Andor) as his seat IN ANDOR, which in turn he "gives" to his best buddy Perrin to rule.

 

Cutting through the legal mumbo jumbo, the upshot is that Perrin rules the Two Rivers as a High Lord of Andor (the *only* high lord) and as Elayne's subject.

 

The Two Rivers is now confirmed as a province of Andor.

1) it is absolutely not clear, I'll refer you to the many, many pages of discussion of that in the Elayne thread, starting here: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/53176-elaynes-arc/page__st__587

 

2) Perrin was not made high lord, and evenb if he was, fealty is only owed in a feudal system where fealty has been sworn. Perrin has not sworn to Elayne, and is not subject to here if he WAS made a lord (which he wasn't).

 

3) TTR is not given to Perrin, it is Rands, Perrin's line rules it for him per the arrangement, like Dobraine ruled Cairhien, Darlin rules Tear and... erhmm, whatshisname rules in Illian for Rand.

 

4) Rands obligations to Andor are not Perrins obligations. Ghealdan is not subject to The Lion Throne, otherwise you can be sure Faile would have prevented any deal, as she is in line for the throne of Saldaea - and if Ghealdan is subject to Elayne because of the fealty owed to Perrin, then Saldaea would become subject to Elayne by the same extended thinking if Failed inherited the broken crown.

For realworld examples, someone else has mentioned several examples in teh discussions of Perrin and Elayne (I believe in the linked thread)

[randsc]

 

 

Cutting through the legal mumbo jumbo, the upshot is that Perrin rules the Two Rivers as a High Lord of Andor (the *only* high lord) and as Elayne's subject.

 

 

 

 

True. Which means nothing at all regarding any other lands he may control or come to control.

 

It happened all the time in medieval Europe. The fact that the Duke of Normandy became king of England in no way meant that England now belonged to the King of France.

 

Perrin controls the Two River subject to his agreement with Elayne. But he controls (at one step remove) Ghealden in his own right, and if Faile comes to rule Saldaea, Elayne will have no claim there either.

 

What COULD end up binding all of these pieces together is the dynastic marriage Elayne, Faile and Perrin discussed. The child of Perrin's child and Elayne's child would have a claim on all of these lands, assuming no one ended up with a better one.

[Nooska]

 

 

Cutting through the legal mumbo jumbo, the upshot is that Perrin rules the Two Rivers as a High Lord of Andor (the *only* high lord) and as Elayne's subject.

 

 

 

 

True. Which means nothing at all regarding any other lands he may control or come to control.

 

It happened all the time in medieval Europe. The fact that the Duke of Normandy became king of England in no way meant that England now belonged to the King of France.

 

Perrin controls the Two River subject to his agreement with Elayne. But he controls (at one step remove) Ghealden in his own right, and if Faile comes to rule Saldaea, Elayne will have no claim there either.

 

What COULD end up binding all of these pieces together is the dynastic marriage Elayne, Faile and Perrin discussed. The child of Perrin's child and Elayne's child would have a claim on all of these lands, assuming no one ended up with a better one.

Which actually illustrates that none of them have the illusion that Perrin, in any way, brings anything to the table apart from ending the (technical) rebellion, as it wouldn't be necessary if the rest came by fait accompli.

 

What could happen with 1 male heir after Faile and Perrin, would be Daugther-heir of Andor, heir apparant of Cairhien, marrying the heir apparent/presumptive of Saldaea (depending on Tenobia's Lifespan) TTR (the stewardship, making it a direct property of the crown) and liegelord of Ghealdan, combining Andor, Cairhien, Saldaea, TTR (included because it can be considered seperate) with the kingdom of Ghealdan subject to the throne at that time.

[Suttree]

Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

Pretty simple, Perrin is Alliandre's liege lord, and Elayne is now Perrin's liege lady.

Perrin has not sworn fealty to Elayne, and indeed is not required to as he serves TDR as steward of his land. What he personally can call upon has NO bearing on Rand's (and by extension, Perrin's as steward) obligations towards the Andoran Throne - I refer to how littlecontrol Elayne has to command the armsmen of the other lords and ladies of Andor - i.e. none - and the fact that Rand is a higher hierarchical lord than the existing as he is made High Lord of TTR.

 

That being said, I have no doubt that Perrin will marshal all his forces if the cause is just and Elayne asks rather than tries to command.

 

Wait what? I might of missed something but now that Elayne is actually Queen how is she not able to command the armsmen of other lords and the lords themselves for that matter.

[Muad Cheade]

Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

Pretty simple, Perrin is Alliandre's liege lord, and Elayne is now Perrin's liege lady.

Perrin has not sworn fealty to Elayne, and indeed is not required to as he serves TDR as steward of his land. What he personally can call upon has NO bearing on Rand's (and by extension, Perrin's as steward) obligations towards the Andoran Throne - I refer to how littlecontrol Elayne has to command the armsmen of the other lords and ladies of Andor - i.e. none - and the fact that Rand is a higher hierarchical lord than the existing as he is made High Lord of TTR.

 

That being said, I have no doubt that Perrin will marshal all his forces if the cause is just and Elayne asks rather than tries to command.

 

Wait what? I might of missed something but now that Elayne is actually Queen how is she not able to command the armsmen of other lords and the lords themselves for that matter.

She does. Lords answer the call of their Kings and Queens. It's simple feudalism. If Elayne as Queen of Andor calls her banners and a lord refuses, that is in essence rebellion and is punishable hrough whatever methods she chooses.

 

Perrin is only Lord when Rand is absent. That's his role as steward. Apart from those duties, he is Alliandre's liegelord. Those two are separate roles. However, Perrin might have some leeway to use his forces as he is in essence the most powerful lord and has a nation's army under his command.

[randsc]

The Kings of France were the liege lords of the Dukes of Burgundy.

 

When France went to war, its Kings didn't demand the support of Burgundy. They negotiated for the support of Burgundy. And didn't always get it.

[Nygma7]

Not sure where the idea that the Two Rivers is an independent state came from. It was made pretty clear in ToM that all the involved parties agreed that the Two Rivers is still part of Andor.

 

Elayne got creative with the bookkeeping to placate the other nobles, but the result is that - legally - she gives the Two Rivers to Rand (who grew up as an unknowing subject of Andor and is not only the Dragon Reborn but the Queen's... consort?... and liberator of Andor) as his seat IN ANDOR, which in turn he "gives" to his best buddy Perrin to rule.

 

Cutting through the legal mumbo jumbo, the upshot is that Perrin rules the Two Rivers as a High Lord of Andor (the *only* high lord) and as Elayne's subject.

 

The Two Rivers is now confirmed as a province of Andor.

1) it is absolutely not clear, I'll refer you to the many, many pages of discussion of that in the Elayne thread, starting here: http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/53176-elaynes-arc/page__st__587

 

2) Perrin was not made high lord, and evenb if he was, fealty is only owed in a feudal system where fealty has been sworn. Perrin has not sworn to Elayne, and is not subject to here if he WAS made a lord (which he wasn't).

 

3) TTR is not given to Perrin, it is Rands, Perrin's line rules it for him per the arrangement, like Dobraine ruled Cairhien, Darlin rules Tear and... erhmm, whatshisname rules in Illian for Rand.

 

4) Rands obligations to Andor are not Perrins obligations. Ghealdan is not subject to The Lion Throne, otherwise you can be sure Faile would have prevented any deal, as she is in line for the throne of Saldaea - and if Ghealdan is subject to Elayne because of the fealty owed to Perrin, then Saldaea would become subject to Elayne by the same extended thinking if Failed inherited the broken crown.

For realworld examples, someone else has mentioned several examples in teh discussions of Perrin and Elayne (I believe in the linked thread)

Not to go off on too much of a tangent, but the Two Rivers was not given away like a present to Rand, no longer Elayne's and not part of her nation anymore.

 

It was made the Dragon's seat in Andor, which is not at all the same thing as making Rand an Andoran lord subject to Elayne's rule. Compare Tuon with Beslan in TGS. She pronounces Altara her seat on this side of the ocean, making Beslan preeminent High Blood on this side only to Tuon herself.

 

Elayne was doing a similar thing. By making TTR Rand's seat, she elevated it in position within Andor, giving her legal reason to make Perrin, its steward for the Dragon, a High Lord. And yes, Perrin owes loyalty to Elayne now.

[Nygma7]

The Kings of France were the liege lords of the Dukes of Burgundy.

 

When France went to war, its Kings didn't demand the support of Burgundy. They negotiated for the support of Burgundy. And didn't always get it.

But that's more a comment on the relative strength of France and Burgundy at the time and not of how the system was intended to work. Powerful lords had lesser lords swear to them for protection, but over the years as things changed, a lord could easily find himself in the position of being unable to force obedience of a recalcitrant subject.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that Elayne can rightfully expect Perrin to muster forces for her which includes his fiefdom of Ghealdan. Which doesn't mean that Elayne owns Ghealdan, or even Perrin does, but it is an asset she can count on unlike, say, the aid of Murandy.

[Muad Cheade]

The Kings of France were the liege lords of the Dukes of Burgundy.

 

When France went to war, its Kings didn't demand the support of Burgundy. They negotiated for the support of Burgundy. And didn't always get it.

But that's more a comment on the relative strength of France and Burgundy at the time and not of how the system was intended to work. Powerful lords had lesser lords swear to them for protection, but over the years as things changed, a lord could easily find himself in the position of being unable to force obedience of a recalcitrant subject.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that Elayne can rightfully expect Perrin to muster forces for her which includes his fiefdom of Ghealdan. Which doesn't mean that Elayne owns Ghealdan, or even Perrin does, but it is an asset she can count on unlike, say, the aid of Murandy.

Correct. For example, William the Conqueror, who initiated the Norman Conquest and became King of England was at the same time Duke of Normandy and vassal of the King of France. In one capacity he was the King of France's equal and in another he was his liegeman.

[randsc]

The Kings of France were the liege lords of the Dukes of Burgundy.

 

When France went to war, its Kings didn't demand the support of Burgundy. They negotiated for the support of Burgundy. And didn't always get it.

But that's more a comment on the relative strength of France and Burgundy at the time and not of how the system was intended to work. Powerful lords had lesser lords swear to them for protection, but over the years as things changed, a lord could easily find himself in the position of being unable to force obedience of a recalcitrant subject.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that Elayne can rightfully expect Perrin to muster forces for her which includes his fiefdom of Ghealdan. Which doesn't mean that Elayne owns Ghealdan, or even Perrin does, but it is an asset she can count on unlike, say, the aid of Murandy.

Correct. For example, William the Conqueror, who initiated the Norman Conquest and became King of England was at the same time Duke of Normandy and vassal of the King of France. In one capacity he was the King of France's equal and in another he was his liegeman.

Incorrect. The King of France was never entitled to command the military support of England because England's King also happened to hold lands in France.

[Muad Cheade]

The Kings of France were the liege lords of the Dukes of Burgundy.

 

When France went to war, its Kings didn't demand the support of Burgundy. They negotiated for the support of Burgundy. And didn't always get it.

But that's more a comment on the relative strength of France and Burgundy at the time and not of how the system was intended to work. Powerful lords had lesser lords swear to them for protection, but over the years as things changed, a lord could easily find himself in the position of being unable to force obedience of a recalcitrant subject.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that Elayne can rightfully expect Perrin to muster forces for her which includes his fiefdom of Ghealdan. Which doesn't mean that Elayne owns Ghealdan, or even Perrin does, but it is an asset she can count on unlike, say, the aid of Murandy.

Correct. For example, William the Conqueror, who initiated the Norman Conquest and became King of England was at the same time Duke of Normandy and vassal of the King of France. In one capacity he was the King of France's equal and in another he was his liegeman.

Incorrect. The King of France was never entitled to command the military support of England because England's King also happened to hold lands in France.

That's not what I said. The King of France was the liegelord of William I, Duke of Normandy. He was the equal of William I, King of England. The only way the Kingdom of England would enter a war on the behalf of France was if William the King decided to, not that Willaim the Duke was ordered to.

[capuga]

Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

Pretty simple, Perrin is Alliandre's liege lord, and Elayne is now Perrin's liege lady. If Alliandre's nation is attacked, Perrin is obliged to come to her defense, and if Perrin needs troops or resources, Alliandre is bound to provide them. Same thing between Perrin and Elayne, and by extension Elayne and Alliandre. If Andor goes to war, the Two Rivers will be called up, and if the Two Rivers is called up, Ghealdan will be called up. If Ghealdan is attacked, Perrin is bound to come to its defense, and so is Elayne.

 

 

With respect to Tuon vs Rand being 1-0, that's kinda like saying Mat vs Tuon in stones stands in Mat's favor, so Mat is a more powerful ruler than Tuon. Tuon is 1-0 against Rand in terms of sheer willpower vs ta'veren pattern warping. Has nothing to do with the number and kind of armies, channelers, resources, and allies each can call up.

 

 

You're right, it doesn't have anything to do with the number & kind of armies, channelers, resources, or allies they can call upon. Tuon being 1-0 over Rand has everything to do with the two of them facing each other literally, 1 on 1, in the purest sense, on the political battlefield. Tuon won.

 

Mat plays Stones many times with Tuon, so we're given a bigger sample size for which to reference their Stones playing ability, only.

 

There's no way around it. It's the only time we've seen Tuon vs. Rand, sans proxies, armies, what have you beyond their own wits/force of will or what have you, or in Rand's case wits and ta'varen-ness, so it's not even a level playing field, and Tuon still wins. You could bring up armies, allies, abilities all but at the end of the day it doesn't change the outcome of the only matchup we've been given between the two.

 

Rand(after the fact): Well, I've still got better armies, with channelers, and cool allies. Plus I've changed since that first time, and I'm better - even though we haven't faced off head to head, so I can say that with actual results in my favor to back it up.

Tuon: Scoreboard

Rand: Buh-buh-buh buuuuhhh

Tuon: Scoreboard.

 

Rand might have all of those other things at his disposal, but it still doesn't change the outcome of the referenced encounter, the only direct face to face political encounter(so far), on the most personal and basic level, between he and Tuon. So until there's another meeting, a Tuon vs. Rand II, Rumble in the Rahad or whatever you want to call it, Tuon's 1-up on Rand in the political game.

 

But the point of the thread is who has the must political power (i.e. resources), not who came out ahead in one particular political manuveur. And saying Tuon won is not really accurate either - what did she gain? Rand didn't get the treaty he wanted, but it was meant to be mutually beneficial. She didn't actually gain anything from Rand. And in terms of political power and resources - with Seandar in chaos, Tuon only has the resources she currently has in Randland at her disposal. Which Rand very nearly decided to single-handedly crush. He can destroy her if he wants, even without using the CK.

[gambril]

She didn't actually gain anything from Rand

 

If one wanted to nitpick, it could be argued that she did gain something from Rand - more knowledge of Matrim. She was forced to re-evaluate how she viewed him. This re-evaluation she did, due to their obvious loyalty, can only be to the good. It might be insignificent, but until we've seen how the story ends (Rand/Tuon meeting again) we can't know for certain.

[Suttree]

Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

 

Just posted this quote in another thread but I believe its coming from Faile.

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

[gambril]

Where is all this "Elayne controlls Ghealdan" coming from?

 

Just posted this quote in another thread but I believe its coming from Faile.

 

ToM

"Your Majesty," Faile continued, "there is much to gain here. Through my marriage to Perrin, you gain a tie to Saldaea. Through Alliandre's oaths, you gain Ghealdan.

 

Keyword there is tie. Tie does not equal control. Tie equals an alliance, which is what the result of the meeting was.

[Entreri]

No, I would clearly put Rand >> Tuon.

 

Fact is, Rand has the Aiel, even in Aviendha's dream, they fought the Seanchan for many many decades to a draw, even without any help from the other Randland armies. The Aiel would have been easily out numbered against the Seanchan forces 10 to 1.

 

Man for man, by far the best armies in the world are the Aiel.

 

Just 4 Aiel clans would have beaten all the combined armies of Randland, only reason they did not was they wanted King Laman.

 

Aiel are the best fighters in the world. The top 500 Aiel >> 500 Warders >> top 500 Seanchan. Lan/by far the best Warder/best blademaster in the series = Rhuarac, according to Moraine.

 

 

 

Given this fact, Aiel = Seanchan at least in the short run (decades). I figure the Seanchan superior numbers in the end will win out against just the Aiel. Similar to what happened to Iturlade. If the others had joined the Aiel in the beginning, they would have defeated the Seanchan.

 

Then Rand has the Borderland armies, the Black Tower (soon to be his), Tear, Illian and Perrin's forces. If they were to fight, Seanchan armies would be destroyed, and utterly. Not to mention the DR would be fighting against the Seanchan. The Seanchan have no chance of victory.

 

Fortunately for the hapless Seanchan, the DR has bigger fish to fry.

 

 

Lastly, the DR is supposed to bind the Daughter of the Nine moons.