How To Fix Egwene

[capuga]

It just occurred to me that Egwene still hasn't met her toh to Ruarc. A nice way to bring her down a peg would be to make her meet her toh at FOM in front of everybody.

 

That would be political suicide. No one would ever take her seriously again.

[herid]

It just occurred to me that Egwene still hasn't met her toh to Ruarc. A nice way to bring her down a peg would be to make her meet her toh at FOM in front of everybody.

 

That would be political suicide. No one would ever take her seriously again.

yeh, I wasn't really serious. I know this will never happen. In fact, I doubt the matter of her toh to Ruarc will ever be brought up at all.

[capuga]

It just occurred to me that Egwene still hasn't met her toh to Ruarc. A nice way to bring her down a peg would be to make her meet her toh at FOM in front of everybody.

 

That would be political suicide. No one would ever take her seriously again.

yeh, I wasn't really serious. I know this will never happen. In fact, I doubt the matter of her toh to Ruarc will ever be brought up at all.

 

Yeah, I doubt it will be addressed. My thought was - As much as I want to see Egwene humbled (at least in her own POV) I don't think it needs to be so public or done in a way that will completely kill her authority. (Even though it would amuse me )

[Phoenix8514]

I can see Egwene going into the meeting at the FOM ready to claim that Rand is crazy and should not be allowed go through with his plan. I think the way Rand will humble her is by explaining to the leaders why he has to do it. I honestly, think Egwene will try to place him under White Tower control only to fail and look like an idiot in front of the other leaders. I also think they will recieve word that the White Towers is under attack fromt he Seanchan as well. I want someone to say something along the lines of "How can we trust you to guide the Dragon Reborn when you cannot even protect Tar Valon and the White Tower?" It should bring her down a notch and make her think herself over. Hopefully anyway.

[idiostock]

I can see Egwene going into the meeting at the FOM ready to claim that Rand is crazy and should not be allowed go through with his plan. I think the way Rand will humble her is by explaining to the leaders why he has to do it. I honestly, think Egwene will try to place him under White Tower control only to fail and look like an idiot in front of the other leaders. I also think they will recieve word that the White Towers is under attack fromt he Seanchan as well. I want someone to say something along the lines of "How can we trust you to guide the Dragon Reborn when you cannot even protect Tar Valon and the White Tower?" It should bring her down a notch and make her think herself over. Hopefully anyway.

 

She would just get indignant and think to herself "They don't understand." That's the problem with Egwene, as a person. She doesn't ever accept her flaws' existence, because she can always excuse them to herself.

[sfgiantsfanmike]

@ randsc: hard to trim long quotes on me phone or I would have.

 

What I was reffering to, in regards to appolgies to Mat, happens in "What is Written in Prophecy," chapter 55 of the Dragon Reborn:

 

Matt: What I understand is that I got you out of something you couldn't get yourselves out of and you all have as much gratitude as a bloody Tarren Ferry man with a toothache!"

 

Nynaeve: You are right. As much as it pains me to say it, Mat, you are right.

 

Not a great appology but coming from Nynaeve it's like most people begging for forgiveness (flashes expired poetic licence... will have to get on that)

[Phoenix8514]

I can see Egwene going into the meeting at the FOM ready to claim that Rand is crazy and should not be allowed go through with his plan. I think the way Rand will humble her is by explaining to the leaders why he has to do it. I honestly, think Egwene will try to place him under White Tower control only to fail and look like an idiot in front of the other leaders. I also think they will recieve word that the White Towers is under attack fromt he Seanchan as well. I want someone to say something along the lines of "How can we trust you to guide the Dragon Reborn when you cannot even protect Tar Valon and the White Tower?" It should bring her down a notch and make her think herself over. Hopefully anyway.

 

She would just get indignant and think to herself "They don't understand." That's the problem with Egwene, as a person. She doesn't ever accept her flaws' existence, because she can always excuse them to herself.

 

True. My least favorite character used to be Faile, but I actually liked her in this book. She grew up. Egwene has just become worse during the last couple of books. She was ok in TGS, but of course she had to screw up it. Plus I got annoyed how she got all angry at Siuan for saving her. I mean a little Seachan raid is nothing to her. It feels weird saying it, but I actually felt bad for Gawyn in this book. Also, she thiks Nynaeve is caught up in Rand's taveren effect, but doesn't she realize why the Pattern uses them. To do what is best. Perhaps she will realize this and become less of a pain. I happen to like the theory that she has been placed under some kind of Compulsion. It would at least explain things. Granted, she was a annoying character from the beginning.

[restausn]

What a great discussion!

Egwene has always been one of my 3 favorite characters in the series.

I'm pissed at her about how arrogant she has become, but I think Sanderson writes her well. The fight at the tower against the Seanchen in TGS was awesome I thought.

I think being Amyrlin Seat has gone to her head a bit as well. :-)

About the compulsion.. remember how much time Halima (Aran'gar) spent massaging her head.?

Warm regards to all..

 

 

 

[Brammeri]

She is the Amyrlin.

 

She isnt supposed to be liked.

 

Most powerful figures are not well liked.

 

I dont have a problem with her if she gets on with her job.

 

She can be the most arrogant prick in the world, which she is, and I dislike her personally.

 

But as long as she realises Rand is right in this (the seals) in the end, I am happy.

 

 

Personally, I dislike Elayne more than Egwene.

Egwene is determined to fulfil the prophecies as she has seen and read them.

Elayne is just after ensuring she has power after the Final Battle.

 

And it's funny how many female characters (from what I've seen on here) are disliked.

Faile is another one who I've read should be killed off.

Are a lot of posters male and don't like powerful female characters?

 

And if we want to mention dislikeable characters, what about:

Gawyn the muppet, Morgase the unlikeable and Olver the hoodie.

Is it something in Trakand blood that makes them unlikeable?

[Ashandarei]

And it's funny how many female characters (from what I've seen on here) are disliked.

Faile is another one who I've read should be killed off.

Are a lot of posters male and don't like powerful female characters?

 

And if we want to mention dislikeable characters, what about:

Gawyn the muppet, Morgase the unlikeable and Olver the hoodie.

Is it something in Trakand blood that makes them unlikeable?

 

I don't think it's the readers but the author's portrayal of the lead female characters as "frustrating" "confusing" "stubborn" etc etc from the male leads' points of view and also the way RJ wrote a lot of them acting(for ex. being ungrateful such as when Nynaeve refuses to apologize to Mat for her treatment of him and thank him for saving her, Eg, and Elayne from the Stone, or how the only reason Elayne apologized to Mat or even wanted to apologize was to make Avi proud) that causes so much dislike of various females, namely Egwene, Faile, Elayne etc. I know that the girls and women I've interacted with in real life certainly DO NOT act the way those I mentioned above do. I mean, yeah anybody can be frustrating or stubborn or irrational or ungrateful, but those things don't define them whereas in the WoT world, those adjectives seem to define many (not all) females.

 

This is a whole nasty can of worms that I'm reluctant to open but the example pertains quite strongly to my argument. Take the Aes Sedai of the third age, that is the female White Tower organization. You notice how all they seem to do is bicker and grab for power and keep secrets for NO REASON other than keeping secrets. There are a few very notable exceptions but by and large the White Tower which is supposed to be the bastion of the Light against the shadow is simply shown as a political machine worried more about power-politics than the fate of the world. Many people have used this example but here it is again: The Greens should be in the Borderlands helping defend against the DO's forces, but what do they do? Just like the rest of the AS, they sit in the WT or go out on their own selfish little personal quests, again with the ultimate goal of gaining more political power.

 

In response to your Trakand blood comment, I was thinking along the same lines the other day! All three- Morgase, Elayne, and Gawyn are extremely annoying to read and very irrational and make extremely stupid decisions many a time. Gawyn takes the prize on stupid decisions though, no doubt about it.

[ranjitb]

 

And it's funny how many female characters (from what I've seen on here) are disliked.

Faile is another one who I've read should be killed off.

Are a lot of posters male and don't like powerful female characters?

 

 

I'm sorry, but while there is a large portion of truth to the double-standard arguement, the whole "Powerful men are revered and Powerful women are hated" thing is fast becoming a parody of itself.

 

While I cannot speak for everyone, a part of accepting women=men is to hold them to the same standard of behaviour.

The fact that as RJ wrote them, most female characters were arrogant, discourteous, self-serving manipulative assholes, and this is why they are disliked has less to do with them being women and everything to do with them just being awful people.

 

A larger fraction of the fan-base seems to like Moiraine, Aviendha, Min, Nynaeve not because they prostrate themselves at the feet of the male protagonist, which they don't, but they seem to be capable of treating people around them with the same level of respect and rationality with which they themselves expect to be treated.

 

Now as I have said elsewhere, I personally find the Sanderson characterization of Faile and Egwene to be a million times better than the Jordan one (he really hasn't done much with Elayne) but my dislike of them is rooted far too firmly and deeply in the first 10 books to really change.

[David Selig]

Egwene is determined to fulfil the prophecies as she has seen and read them.

What prophesies would that be? If you mean the Caraethon Cycle, I don't think she's ever read it. And I haven't seen anything in her thoughts that she's striving to fulfill any prophesies.

[Sleeper]

 

And it's funny how many female characters (from what I've seen on here) are disliked.

Faile is another one who I've read should be killed off.

Are a lot of posters male and don't like powerful female characters?

 

 

I'm sorry, but while there is a large portion of truth to the double-standard arguement, the whole "Powerful men are revered and Powerful women are hated" thing is fast becoming a parody of itself.

 

While I cannot speak for everyone, a part of accepting women=men is to hold them to the same standard of behaviour.

The fact that as RJ wrote them, most female characters were arrogant, discourteous, self-serving manipulative assholes, and this is why they are disliked has less to do with them being women and everything to do with them just being awful people.

 

A larger fraction of the fan-base seems to like Moiraine, Aviendha, Min, Nynaeve not because they prostrate themselves at the feet of the male protagonist, which they don't, but they seem to be capable of treating people around them with the same level of respect and rationality with which they themselves expect to be treated.

 

Now as I have said elsewhere, I personally find the Sanderson characterization of Faile and Egwene to be a million times better than the Jordan one (he really hasn't done much with Elayne) but my dislike of them is rooted far too firmly and deeply in the first 10 books to really change.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[jgarnett83]

she is going to perish!

[Moogle]

By the way, when Egwene began this line of thought that she, as the Amyrlin, was the White Tower that would not bend or break, that Mesaana was an insect in comparison etc. - I began rooting for Mesaana. It seems to me that thinking of other people as insects is kind of evil, no matter who they are

 

I began rooting for Mesaana there too. I found it disgusting that, in TaR, the more arrogant you are, the more powerful you become. It actually validates Egwene and shows she is "right" to think that way because by thinking of herself that way she becomes powerful enough. And she says Rand has a puffed up head...

 

I sort of found it odd how much I loved Egwene in TGS and hated her in ToM.

 

Some way for her to be embarrassed and for her to admit her to some of her mistakes would be enough to fix her, imo.

[jwlee]

I love Egwene, and felt she finally got a chance to shine in TGS during the Seanchan attack. She's supposed to be the end all and be all of AS but unfortunately, being in that type of leadership position, she rarely gets to do anything, unlike Nynaeve who has done practically EVERYTHING from capturing Moghedian, cleansing the taint, blah, blah. Sure, Egwene defeated Mesaana, which was great, but it was a bit anticlimactic. It took like 2 seconds, while Nynaeve's battle with Moghedian took forever. many leaders in this story are arrogant, Rand most of all, until now, Elayne, Mat. Egwene's trying to hold things together. Her reaction to Rand's proclamation regarding breaking the seals is to be expected, although I don't care for the fact that her opposition to it makes her look stupid. What can people expect though? he simply drops in for like one minute and says, I have to break the seals, with no explanation! Sure the all knowing Perrin who has his bromance connection with Rand understands all in like a millisecond. Please. It's also annoying that Egwene had to spend like two books studying with the Wise Ones and learning about Tel'aran'rhiod and Perrin learns it in like 2 chapters. Not only does he learn it that quickly, he learns it even better than her as she gasps when he is able to repel balefire. It's a bit insulting that Egwene has had to be under the tutelage of others, while Rand, Perrin, Mat, have all become leaders without having to undergo any of that. Elayne has been instructed from birth and Nynaeve also had to bow to other AS, but the holy triumvirate, they all just magically became leaders without having to bow to anyone.

[Hopefire]

I love Egwene, and felt she finally got a chance to shine in TGS during the Seanchan attack. She's supposed to be the end all and be all of AS but unfortunately, being in that type of leadership position, she rarely gets to do anything, unlike Nynaeve who has done practically EVERYTHING from capturing Moghedian, cleansing the taint, blah, blah. Sure, Egwene defeated Mesaana, which was great, but it was a bit anticlimactic. It took like 2 seconds, while Nynaeve's battle with Moghedian took forever. many leaders in this story are arrogant, Rand most of all, until now, Elayne, Mat. Egwene's trying to hold things together. Her reaction to Rand's proclamation regarding breaking the seals is to be expected, although I don't care for the fact that her opposition to it makes her look stupid. What can people expect though? he simply drops in for like one minute and says, I have to break the seals, with no explanation! Sure the all knowing Perrin who has his bromance connection with Rand understands all in like a millisecond. Please. It's also annoying that Egwene had to spend like two books studying with the Wise Ones and learning about Tel'aran'rhiod and Perrin learns it in like 2 chapters. Not only does he learn it that quickly, he learns it even better than her as she gasps when he is able to repel balefire. It's a bit insulting that Egwene has had to be under the tutelage of others, while Rand, Perrin, Mat, have all become leaders without having to undergo any of that. Elayne has been instructed from birth and Nynaeve also had to bow to other AS, but the holy triumvirate, they all just magically became leaders without having to bow to anyone.

 

Rand learned the sword and how to appear from Lan. Rand learned statecraft and the game of houses from Moiraine. Rand learned how to control the One Power from Asmodean and Lews Therin. Rand learned tactics from Rhuarc, Bashere, and Lan. Rand was at the very least discussing the problem of cleansing the Taint and resealing the Dark One with Fel. Cadsuane taught Rand how to laugh again.

 

Like Egwene, Rand has had his teachers.

[anotherfingolfin]

I love Egwene, and felt she finally got a chance to shine in TGS during the Seanchan attack. She's supposed to be the end all and be all of AS but unfortunately, being in that type of leadership position, she rarely gets to do anything, unlike Nynaeve who has done practically EVERYTHING from capturing Moghedian, cleansing the taint, blah, blah. Sure, Egwene defeated Mesaana, which was great, but it was a bit anticlimactic. It took like 2 seconds, while Nynaeve's battle with Moghedian took forever. many leaders in this story are arrogant, Rand most of all, until now, Elayne, Mat. Egwene's trying to hold things together. Her reaction to Rand's proclamation regarding breaking the seals is to be expected, although I don't care for the fact that her opposition to it makes her look stupid. What can people expect though? he simply drops in for like one minute and says, I have to break the seals, with no explanation! Sure the all knowing Perrin who has his bromance connection with Rand understands all in like a millisecond. Please. It's also annoying that Egwene had to spend like two books studying with the Wise Ones and learning about Tel'aran'rhiod and Perrin learns it in like 2 chapters. Not only does he learn it that quickly, he learns it even better than her as she gasps when he is able to repel balefire. It's a bit insulting that Egwene has had to be under the tutelage of others, while Rand, Perrin, Mat, have all become leaders without having to undergo any of that. Elayne has been instructed from birth and Nynaeve also had to bow to other AS, but the holy triumvirate, they all just magically became leaders without having to bow to anyone.

 

Right. Rand is the super-powerful prophecised saviour, central character. You REALLY cannot compare his 'rise' to any of the others'. And it's not like he hasn't undergone the most extreme trials and tribulations.

Mat and Perrin have the Ta'veren thing going for them as well. You could argue that it is a little deus ex machina, but it isn't, as it was established fairly early on.

Mat's gaining badass knowledge from the Finns could be called a bit of a shortcut. And yeah, I guess it is. If you accept his super-military genius though, then him becoming a military leader is really NOT a stretch.

Perrin, well him as a leader seems a little unnatural to me, but maybe it's supposed to, as it does to the character himself. I guess his rise stems from his defence of the TR. I think that that is a very legitimate starting point, but yeah, the exponential growth in his following does seem a little contrived.

You can't really whine about Perrin being better at T'A'R than Egwene. His link with the wolves was established very early on, and that is why he is so good at it. I mean, different species have certain advantages over others. He shares this affinity that the woves have. It's like, no matter how much a human trains, sprinting is always going to be easier for a cheetah. That's how you have to view Perrin being so much better than Egwene.

[Sleeper]

I love Egwene, and felt she finally got a chance to shine in TGS during the Seanchan attack. She's supposed to be the end all and be all of AS but unfortunately, being in that type of leadership position, she rarely gets to do anything, unlike Nynaeve who has done practically EVERYTHING from capturing Moghedian, cleansing the taint, blah, blah. Sure, Egwene defeated Mesaana, which was great, but it was a bit anticlimactic. It took like 2 seconds, while Nynaeve's battle with Moghedian took forever. many leaders in this story are arrogant, Rand most of all, until now, Elayne, Mat. Egwene's trying to hold things together. Her reaction to Rand's proclamation regarding breaking the seals is to be expected, although I don't care for the fact that her opposition to it makes her look stupid. What can people expect though? he simply drops in for like one minute and says, I have to break the seals, with no explanation! Sure the all knowing Perrin who has his bromance connection with Rand understands all in like a millisecond. Please. It's also annoying that Egwene had to spend like two books studying with the Wise Ones and learning about Tel'aran'rhiod and Perrin learns it in like 2 chapters. Not only does he learn it that quickly, he learns it even better than her as she gasps when he is able to repel balefire. It's a bit insulting that Egwene has had to be under the tutelage of others, while Rand, Perrin, Mat, have all become leaders without having to undergo any of that. Elayne has been instructed from birth and Nynaeve also had to bow to other AS, but the holy triumvirate, they all just magically became leaders without having to bow to anyone.

Perrin has been learning about T'A'R since the first book. That's the wolf dream, something he's been accessing since the beginning of the series. He legitimately should be just as good as Egwene, if not better at it.

 

Rand's had to undergo worse torment than Egwene on his way to becoming a leader. Plus, even if you discount that, he's kind of supposed to automatically become a leader. He's the Dragon Reborn, Car'a'carn, Coramoor; he's already automatically a leader, he always has been. And he has had teachers, as Hopefire stated very well several posts ago. Mat's memories immediately made him a leader because they gave him the experience of dozens of generals. His path to leadership was the fast and dirty way, he got memories stuffed into his head which automatically gave him incredible ability, but he also died for a couple minutes as the price.

 

You think Egwene hasn't done much compared to Nynaeve? She was elected as the youngest Amyrlin seat ever (I think) and pretty much unified the White Tower by herself. That's pretty damn impressive.

 

I still don't like her, though...

[idiostock]

I really liked that Perrin smacked her down in T'A'R, but it came over more, to me, as Perrin being the superior critical thinker. His whole character is based on thinking things through. "Something coming at me? Doesn't matter what. Will it out of existence."

 

He applied what is basically the most commonly mentioned thing in T'A'R to... doing things in T'A'R. In the event that was not clear enough, how many hundreds of times have the novice Aes Sedai- pun intended- whined and whined about their garb changing on a whim? Has Egwene just forgotten this detail, as she is likely to, given her arrogance and casting off of old hats?

 

"I can wear aaaaaanything I want. Cooly. Now I'm a wolf. Now I'm a man. Wow, I can change a lot about this place. OH MY GOD MAGIC DEATH IS FLYING AT ME MAKE IT A TEDDY BEAR!"

 

Mat's memories immediately made him a leader because they gave him the experience of dozens of generals. His path to leadership was the fast and dirty way, he got memories stuffed into his head which automatically gave him incredible ability, but he also died for a couple minutes as the price.

 

Mat was death for days, I thought. He and Rand come out of Rhuidean ~7 days after they go in.

[FarShainMael]

< OT> Mat and Rand were in Rhuidean for days, certainly. But Rand was among the columns, and Mat was in 'finnland. If Rand had been in the columns for 7 of his days without food or water, he would have died of thirst. similarly, if Mat had been hanging for 7 days he would have been very dead, beyond Rand's ability with CPR to revive him. We'd have to conclude that something in the setup - the columns, 'finnland, or Rhuidean's mist dome - distorts time. < /OT>

[jwlee]

 

Rand learned the sword and how to appear from Lan. Rand learned statecraft and the game of houses from Moiraine. Rand learned how to control the One Power from Asmodean and Lews Therin. Rand learned tactics from Rhuarc, Bashere, and Lan. Rand was at the very least discussing the problem of cleansing the Taint and resealing the Dark One with Fel. Cadsuane taught Rand how to laugh again.

 

Like Egwene, Rand has had his teachers.

 

Rand may have had teachers but he has never had to bow down to his teachers as Egwene and the other women have had to. Egwene accepted all the tasks and punishments the Wise Ones and AS have set before her because she wanted to learn. Rand has never had to bow down to Lan or the others, since he's the proclaimed messiah. Asmodean was forced to teach him. There is a big, big, big difference, and I think that's partly why I hate Rand.

[jwlee]

 

Right. Rand is the super-powerful prophecised saviour, central character. You REALLY cannot compare his 'rise' to any of the others'. And it's not like he hasn't undergone the most extreme trials and tribulations.

Mat and Perrin have the Ta'veren thing going for them as well. You could argue that it is a little deus ex machina, but it isn't, as it was established fairly early on.

Mat's gaining badass knowledge from the Finns could be called a bit of a shortcut. And yeah, I guess it is. If you accept his super-military genius though, then him becoming a military leader is really NOT a stretch.

Perrin, well him as a leader seems a little unnatural to me, but maybe it's supposed to, as it does to the character himself. I guess his rise stems from his defence of the TR. I think that that is a very legitimate starting point, but yeah, the exponential growth in his following does seem a little contrived.

You can't really whine about Perrin being better at T'A'R than Egwene. His link with the wolves was established very early on, and that is why he is so good at it. I mean, different species have certain advantages over others. He shares this affinity that the woves have. It's like, no matter how much a human trains, sprinting is always going to be easier for a cheetah. That's how you have to view Perrin being so much better than Egwene.

 

I don't appreciate you attacking me by saying I'm whining. I'm pointing out a lot of the truths in this story. RJ has created a complex, interesting world, and that's why I read it, but there is definite inequality between the sexes in the story and other troubling things, like Rand being in love with 3 women, and more appalling, them all being ok with sharing him. My point is, the triumvirate have basically had everything handed to them. People follow Rand because of the prophecies. mat became a military genius overnight. Perrin actually is the least annoying in this respect as his rise to leadership, saving the Two Rivers, seems more natural. However he also just magically connects with wolves, and he doesn't really have to work at it. There's no honing of his skills, until this last book with learning TAR. Egwene, nynave, elayne, they were all born with the spark, but they've had to develop their skills.

[jwlee]

 

Perrin has been learning about T'A'R since the first book. That's the wolf dream, something he's been accessing since the beginning of the series. He legitimately should be just as good as Egwene, if not better at it.

 

Rand's had to undergo worse torment than Egwene on his way to becoming a leader. Plus, even if you discount that, he's kind of supposed to automatically become a leader. He's the Dragon Reborn, Car'a'carn, Coramoor; he's already automatically a leader, he always has been. And he has had teachers, as Hopefire stated very well several posts ago. Mat's memories immediately made him a leader because they gave him the experience of dozens of generals. His path to leadership was the fast and dirty way, he got memories stuffed into his head which automatically gave him incredible ability, but he also died for a couple minutes as the price.

 

You think Egwene hasn't done much compared to Nynaeve? She was elected as the youngest Amyrlin seat ever (I think) and pretty much unified the White Tower by herself. That's pretty damn impressive.

 

I still don't like her, though...

 

perrin may have been learning, but he really hasn't applied himself until now, only asking Hopper to teach him now. Rand has undergone trials, but he hasn't had to bow down to anyone, like Egwene and all the other women have had to. Sure, he is the end all and be all, but some humility would go a long way. I'm not religious but wasn't jesus humble? Yes, Egwene has accomplished but Nynaeve has done all these amazing things, figured out how to break an a'dam, collared moghedian, discovered all sorts of new weaves, it goes on and on. Great for Nynaeve, sure, I like her, but she has gotten to do like EVERYTHING, and now she's also going to help Rand seal the DO prison. Of course it's easy to like Nynaeve, she's amazing!

[anotherfingolfin]

 

Right. Rand is the super-powerful prophecised saviour, central character. You REALLY cannot compare his 'rise' to any of the others'. And it's not like he hasn't undergone the most extreme trials and tribulations.

Mat and Perrin have the Ta'veren thing going for them as well. You could argue that it is a little deus ex machina, but it isn't, as it was established fairly early on.

Mat's gaining badass knowledge from the Finns could be called a bit of a shortcut. And yeah, I guess it is. If you accept his super-military genius though, then him becoming a military leader is really NOT a stretch.

Perrin, well him as a leader seems a little unnatural to me, but maybe it's supposed to, as it does to the character himself. I guess his rise stems from his defence of the TR. I think that that is a very legitimate starting point, but yeah, the exponential growth in his following does seem a little contrived.

You can't really whine about Perrin being better at T'A'R than Egwene. His link with the wolves was established very early on, and that is why he is so good at it. I mean, different species have certain advantages over others. He shares this affinity that the woves have. It's like, no matter how much a human trains, sprinting is always going to be easier for a cheetah. That's how you have to view Perrin being so much better than Egwene.

 

I don't appreciate you attacking me by saying I'm whining. I'm pointing out a lot of the truths in this story. RJ has created a complex, interesting world, and that's why I read it, but there is definite inequality between the sexes in the story and other troubling things, like Rand being in love with 3 women, and more appalling, them all being ok with sharing him. My point is, the triumvirate have basically had everything handed to them. People follow Rand because of the prophecies. mat became a military genius overnight. Perrin actually is the least annoying in this respect as his rise to leadership, saving the Two Rivers, seems more natural. However he also just magically connects with wolves, and he doesn't really have to work at it. There's no honing of his skills, until this last book with learning TAR. Egwene, nynave, elayne, they were all born with the spark, but they've had to develop their skills.

 

First off let me apologise for that rude phrasing. I should have said it differently.

 

The fact that the three main males seem to have advantages thrust on them by the plot is because they are THE main character of the books.

My stand is that, they are afforded these advantages because they are the main characters, not because they are male. You could of course, make the very valid point that maybe a female character should have been written with that degree of primacy.