Is Rand a Unique Dragon?

[meeker]

I have been thinking a lot recently about Rand's role in the grand scheme of the pattern. Especially with ToM where we gain a lot more insight into Lews Therin as Rand has finally gained the entirety of his consciousness. This gives us a new insight into Rand's role(past and present) as a catalyst in changing ages.

 

The reason I bring this up is that we know Rand is trying to permanently defeat the Dark One. Throughout the series we are given signs that Rand is seemingly unique. Graendal even remarks on it in FoH, "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who know what he is?"(34)

 

This matches what we have learned from Birgitte. I forget where the exact quote is but she tells us that people reborn are not supposed to know who they are. She even seemed to think that having the knowledge meant she might no longer be bound to the pattern. Her situation is different than Rand's but the fact remains that she is confident that no one has ever known who they were before. As many times as she has been spun out she should be a fairly reliable source as far as this goes.

 

Now Rand is not only the prophesied re-birth but he has regained his memories, at least of his last life. This puts him in a seemingly unique position. Unfortunately our knowledge is still extremely limited as the wheel has already spun countless times and we have strong knowledge of just one passing of the 2nd and 3rd ages with a few wild rumors of the 1st.

 

The question is this. Does this mean that Rand is unique in some way and there is at least a chance he can succeed in permanently defeating the Dark One and fundamentally altering the Pattern or does this just always happen in the 3rd age?

[herid]

Rand being a unique Dragon in some way is an interesting possibility but IMO we are not given enough information to start making substantive guesses on this one. That quote of Graendal you found is very interesting but it's hardly conclusive. She would know very little about past ages beyond the one before last so who knows what happened there. BTW, I'm not sure but I think Moridin/Ishamael might have at least some memories of his past lives too.

Also, I really don't think Rand is going to be able to defeat the DO permanently, much less kill him. That would contradict not only the idea of the wheel of time but also the whole "there can not be light without shadow" theme which seems quite prevalent in the last two books. Moridin seems to understand that when he tells Rand in response to his statement that he'll kill the DO "I doubt you can understand the magnitude of the stupidity in your statement."

[Areopagitican]

I think Rand is normal, but Lewis wasn't.

[Elan Tedronai]

no one is going to kill the great lord of the dark. In the words of shao khan 'No one can'

[Ananta]

no one is going to kill the great lord of the dark. In the words of shao khan 'No one can'

 

In words of Barack Obama "Yes we can!"

 

With little help from Fain.

[Xader]

no one is going to kill the great lord of the dark. In the words of shao khan 'No one can'

 

But he likely can seal the DO's prison, so it's like-new. Y'know, until the next "Meirin" comes along and releases him again...

 

 

In words of Barack Obama "Yes we can!"

 

Don't you know that speaking the DO's name brings calls his attention to you? lol. I jest, of course...

[Mats Spare Hat]

I kinda thought that was what made the Dragon, the Dragon. Rather than Rand having all the memories of past lives being a unique occurrence, maybe it has to do specifically with being the Dragon/Dragon Reborn. Did LTT have those past memories when he was the Dragon, did he have a Veins of Gold moment where everything came together? Your guess is as good as mine.

 

I get the inkling that LTT did/does have those memories. He knows how to seal the bore, but because of the added context of what may have been his upbringing, circumstances out of his control, going it alone, or whatever reason floats your boat, he couldn't pull it off in his age, as had/may have happened in past turnings of the wheel.

 

As for Rand having uniqueness, it makes me wonder if the Dragon was/is or always is Ta'varen. Could it be that you could be the Dragon, and not be powerfully Ta'varen? We know you can be powerfully Ta'varen but not the Dragon, as with Hawkwing. I wonder if it's an absolute that a Dragon is always as TV as Rand happens to be.

 

That's where I start thinking about Rand being Unique as a Dragon - his Ta'varen-ness.

[Ananta]

I kinda thought that was what made the Dragon, the Dragon. Rather than Rand having all the memories of past lives being a unique occurrence, maybe it has to do specifically with being the Dragon/Dragon Reborn. Did LTT have those past memories when he was the Dragon, did he have a Veins of Gold moment where everything came together? Your guess is as good as mine.

 

I get the inkling that LTT did/does have those memories. He knows how to seal the bore, but because of the added context of what may have been his upbringing, circumstances out of his control, going it alone, or whatever reason floats your boat, he couldn't pull it off in his age, as had/may have happened in past turnings of the wheel.

 

As for Rand having uniqueness, it makes me wonder if the Dragon was/is or always is Ta'varen. Could it be that you could be the Dragon, and not be powerfully Ta'varen? We know you can be powerfully Ta'varen but not the Dragon, as with Hawkwing. I wonder if it's an absolute that a Dragon is always as TV as Rand happens to be.

 

That's where I start thinking about Rand being Unique as a Dragon - his Ta'varen-ness.

 

LTT didn't have any memories of past life/lives. Lews Therin was "The Dragon". Rand Sedai is "The Dragon Reborn", thus the memories.

 

I think it's completely normal for The Dragon Reborn to have The Dragon's memories.

[meeker]

 

 

LTT didn't have any memories of past life/lives. Lews Therin was "The Dragon". Rand Sedai is "The Dragon Reborn", thus the memories.

 

I think it's completely normal for The Dragon Reborn to have The Dragon's memories.

 

Doesn't Hawkwing recognize Rand as someone that had already been born many times?

[Ananta]

LTT didn't have any memories of past life/lives. Lews Therin was "The Dragon". Rand Sedai is "The Dragon Reborn", thus the memories.

 

I think it's completely normal for The Dragon Reborn to have The Dragon's memories.

 

Doesn't Hawkwing recognize Rand as someone that had already been born many times?

 

I'd say he recognizes his Soul... Dunno if they are born each time looking the same?

 

Hawkwing: " 'Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh.' He was looking at Rand."

 

 

What does "but remember when you wore flesh"? Does it mean that he talks to Rand as if he's Lews Therin, while still acknowledging the fact that he's not yet Lews Therin (Because he doesn't have LTTs memories, yet).

 

So that would mean Hawkwing sees more than meets the eye.

[meeker]

I found the line I was looking for. Couple paragraphs below.

 

"I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself"(661).

 

This is not the first time he has been the dragon or the dragon reborn. Yet from what we can tell this is the first time he has had memories of a previous life. Even Hawkwing who claims to have been with him for countless ages expects him to have no memories.

 

I agree that Rand can't or even shouldn't kill the Dark One. However, I can't escape the feeling that something that has never happened before may happen. It just seems we get information from all sides that there is something different about this age and this coming battle. Why else out of all the countless previous ages did RJ pick this one to base his story in.

[Gasha]

Moridin certainly seems to believe that Rand is in no way unique, seeing as his whole reason for turning to the shadow was his frustration with the cyclical timeline. If he thought Rand was an exception to that timeline, he would most likely have tried to aid him, no? Could be a setup for a redemption plot, I suppose, but it seems unlikely, given Rands embracing of the cyclical timeline in VoG

[Elan Tedronai]

no one is going to kill the great lord of the dark. In the words of shao khan 'No one can'

 

In words of Barack Obama "Yes we can!"

 

With little help from Fain.

 

fain? that's your help? The great lord wants to know what are you smoking

[Ananta]

fain? that's your help? The great lord wants to know what are you smoking

 

Evil from Shadar Logoth counters evil of DO.

 

This is evident from The Cleansing, where they used Shadar Logoth's evil to clean the Taint from Saidin. And Rand's wounds, when one of the Asha'man (forgot who it was...) "heals" Rand by making his wounds "fight" each other (One of his wounds was made by DO's evil and other by Shadar Logoth's evil).

 

 

This leads to theory that Fain, being the 'avatar' of Shadar Logoth can somehow cause a standoff between DO and Fain, or even take DO's place as new DO. Or destroy the whole concept of Dark One all together.

[Goramier]

I have seen it like this; there are two aspects to his one person. First you have the soul. The soul is the same soul that is in Rand as was in the previous Dragons. Rand, Lews and the previous ones (Roland Darskbane was a previous one wasn't he?) all shared the same soul and as such, were the same person. Then there is the second aspect. The sociological aspect of where you are raised, by whom you are raised, the conditions of it, etc... Those things reflect deeply in most people. This of course isn't 100% true but for the most part it is valid to suggest that ones environment does in fact, contribute to shaping ones person.

 

I believe this is where Rand departs from the bodies his soul has shared previously. He made the statement, that he was raised differently. The other day I read a thread about Rand's sensing the darkfriends and couldn't have agreed less with the thoughts but considering what I am about these days, (bar exam prep) have few chances left to discuss this stuff.

 

Anyways, I think we have seen the soul, which includes that which came from his prior bodies merging with the new body. They are no longer fighting each other. A huge part of the fight with all the Two Rivers kids was the internal fighting they all did against who they were and what they knew based on their environments. Perhaps for the first time, the soul we know as the Dragon has been reborn in a man who was raised with the standards of a small villiage. If you know anyone from a small town compared to people from a larger town there are vast differences. I could spend a long time discussing just that. More or less however, I think that what we have is NOT a different Dragon, not a more powerful one but one that is for the first time, balanced. I think that is key here. Rand has balanced his body, in terms of his person and up-bringing with the inherant power of his soul. He has not only balanced it but is able to draw upon the power that Lews had via knowledge and experience. Now, rather then having this up-bringing fighting, refusing and denying that which his soul is, he has balanced it.

 

I don't think Rand is any special Dragon. I do not see it as him having any special powers. I truly have seen it as that he is in fact, far WEAKER then the past Dragons. He is less powerful and less knowledgable then his soul was before. His soul was in bodies who were far superior to his now. However, those past people lacked the balance that Rand now has. The balance he has only recently found. He know has all the benefits of his up-bringing and understand that for what it is. He has balanced that with his soul which carries with it, rebirths of power, knowledge and influence.

 

Thus, I think Rand is both less powerful and more powerful then previous Dragons. The "more" powerful part of course coming from his balance and for the first time, his ability to have both ends of the spectrum from which to draw upon.

 

With that said, I will admit that before reading this forum I had previously thought, "three become one" was Rand blending with Lews and the Dragon previous to Lews. I had taken it has the souls finally connecting with those past lives and finally settling that internal conflict. I have since read some very convinving thoughts about Rands morphing with Moridin. I am not sure what that is all about. Perhaps we will never be told and left to speculation on points such as that.

 

This also leads to why I really don't bother guessing the ending. As the boards have suggested there are many, many ways the book could end. I have wondered if Rands "death" would in the end more or less being Lews dying within Rand or some other such event where we see his soul and current body of some sort of impact on the story. Maybe. Maybe not. We can only guess for now. But to finish my thoughts, I think Rand is both a weaker Dragon (in terms of power, skill and knowledge) then the previous ones and a more powerful one (he has balanced who he is and won't be subject to what Lews was).

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I have been thinking a lot recently about Rand's role in the grand scheme of the pattern. Especially with ToM where we gain a lot more insight into Lews Therin as Rand has finally gained the entirety of his consciousness. This gives us a new insight into Rand's role(past and present) as a catalyst in changing ages.

 

The reason I bring this up is that we know Rand is trying to permanently defeat the Dark One. Throughout the series we are given signs that Rand is seemingly unique. Graendal even remarks on it in FoH, "It may well be that, as many believe, all are born and reborn as the Wheel turns, but nothing like this has ever happened that I have read. A specific man reborn according to prophecy. Who know what he is?"(34)

 

This matches what we have learned from Birgitte. I forget where the exact quote is but she tells us that people reborn are not supposed to know who they are. She even seemed to think that having the knowledge meant she might no longer be bound to the pattern. Her situation is different than Rand's but the fact remains that she is confident that no one has ever known who they were before. As many times as she has been spun out she should be a fairly reliable source as far as this goes.

 

Now Rand is not only the prophesied re-birth but he has regained his memories, at least of his last life. This puts him in a seemingly unique position. Unfortunately our knowledge is still extremely limited as the wheel has already spun countless times and we have strong knowledge of just one passing of the 2nd and 3rd ages with a few wild rumors of the 1st.

 

The question is this. Does this mean that Rand is unique in some way and there is at least a chance he can succeed in permanently defeating the Dark One and fundamentally altering the Pattern or does this just always happen in the 3rd age?

 

 

What makes you believe Rand is unique? He is simply the rebirth of Lews Therin, who is probability is the unique persona, considering he is taking over Rand's body. This is especially prominent in the latest books where it is implied repeatedly by the likes of Egwene or Siuan that Rand's eyes seemed to look ancient. That he held himself like a man of high birth and spoke in an educated/learned manner of an intellectual. Likewise he has adopted the tense of Lews Therin's memories into the singular. He promptly states "I was there" or "I remember" when it comes to reminiscing towards an event that was witnessed by Lews Therin.

 

Lews Therin botched the job up the first time out of a mixture of pride and desperation. However he is the Light's Champion and hence has been given another attempt to finish his task, being offered the body of Rand as a vassal to fulfill his mission. Hence why Rand is not known as "the Dragon," but emphasized that he is "the Dragon Reborn." It certainly seems to make a lot of sense in a form. Most of the old players from the first war against the Dark Lord are still present. There are no prominent new Forsaken, the old constellation of Lews Therin vs Ishamael/Demandred/Graendal/etc.. remained true.

 

There is a reason why the story back in EotW began with Lews Therin and his final moments. The story has always revolved around him and his return to finish his task.