Towers of Midnight....

[Shadowfaxx]

I still don't see the importance of "Towers of Midnight" in the book.

Yeah, it's the Seanchan base thing, but it never really was important.

Or was it? I can't remember...

This is what happens when you read it with a three day break in the middle. Meh.

 

-Shadowfaxx

[Finnssss22]

I still don't see the importance of "Towers of Midnight" in the book.

Yeah, it's the Seanchan base thing, but it never really was important.

Or was it? I can't remember...

This is what happens when you read it with a three day break in the middle. Meh.

 

-Shadowfaxx

 

The title of the book refers to the nations starting to come together under The Dragon Reborn.

 

The Towers of Midnight in Seanchan represents the consolidation of all the nations in that land under one rule.

[asudlow]

And they are also where the imperial family are said to go in a time of great peril. I suspect Mat and Tuon will have to go there in aMoL hence, 'The one-eyed fool walks the halls of mourning' and why I believe Demandred is in Seanchan.

[Elend]

Don't forget Egwene's dream of the black towers.

[Finnssss22]

Don't forget Egwene's dream of the black towers.

 

I'm not set on what that dream means yet but I'm leaning towards it representing the tight groups the nations are in.

The Borderlander's together is one tower for example, Andor, Cairhien, Ghealdan, Mayene and The Two Rivers another ect, ect.

 

The theories I have seen saying it represents the remaining Forsaken just doesn't hold water for me, not with Mesaana down and out now. I realise the argument is that Mesaana is the tower that almost crashed and then grew taller than all the rest but that just simply doesn't jive for me.

Highly doubtful imo that Mesaana will be back, let alone being powerful enough to over take everyone else.

[Vexorian]

It is actually referencing that dream mostly. The tower that fell and grows taller than the rest actually represents Moridin. Since he died in TDR and is now back as Nae'blis. Also, it was stated by RJ (or BS?) that there would be no more action on the Seanchan mainland. (But that doesn't mean that the action won't be brought to us *hint* Demandred *hint*)

[Finnssss22]

It is actually referencing that dream mostly. The tower that fell and grows taller than the rest actually represents Moridin. Since he died in TDR and is now back as Nae'blis. Also, it was stated by RJ (or BS?) that there would be no more action on the Seanchan mainland. (But that doesn't mean that the action won't be brought to us *hint* Demandred *hint*)

Aginor/Osan'gar and Lanfear/Cyndane have both died as well so only one of the towers falling almost to the ground makes no sense to me under your logic.

 

Just because there were 13 Forsaken in the beginning is not enough imo, there are also 13 Towers of Midnight in Seanchan.

The Towers of Midnight represent the consolidation of nations in Seanchan.

The name of the book represents Rand bringing/attempting to bring almost all the nations to him.

Why would Egwene's dream represent the towers as the forsaken and then turn around and represent Mesaana as a serpent. I mean, to a point it makes some sense but doesn't seem right to me.

[Luckers]

The prophecy at the end makes fairly clear that the Midnight Towers are the Forsaken.

[Vexorian]

Lanfear technically never died... And at the point of the dream Osan'gar and Aran'gar are already dead.

 

And from the wheel of time wiki.

 

"The Towers of Midnight form a fortress complex located within the city of Imfaral, located on the northern landmass of the Seanchan continent. There are thirteen towers in the fortress. The Towers of Midnight are first noted in history as the place where Deain, the creator of the a'dam, was imprisoned after being betrayed by Luthair Paendrag Mondwin during The Conquest.

 

The Towers of Midnight and the city of Imfaral were captured early during Luthair's invasion, and were the primary base of operations for the invaders before they took Seandar later in the war.

 

Since the Consolidation, the Towers have remained unoccupied. Legend has it that when a time of dire need comes, the Imperial family will return to the Towers and "right that which is wrong"."

[rand4747]

Could the Towers of midnight have existed since before the breaking and belonged to the forsaken aka the midnight towers back then. They are just part of the entire fortress which may have been the shadows stronghold.

[Luckers]

Note the title is 'Towers of Midnight' not 'the Towers of Midnight'.

 

There is no need to connect the fortress to the title. The Forsaken are, melodramatically put, 'towers' of 'midnight'.

[Finnssss22]

Lanfear technically never died... And at the point of the dream Osan'gar and Aran'gar are already dead.

 

And from the wheel of time wiki.

 

"The Towers of Midnight form a fortress complex located within the city of Imfaral, located on the northern landmass of the Seanchan continent. There are thirteen towers in the fortress. The Towers of Midnight are first noted in history as the place where Deain, the creator of the a'dam, was imprisoned after being betrayed by Luthair Paendrag Mondwin during The Conquest.

 

The Towers of Midnight and the city of Imfaral were captured early during Luthair's invasion, and were the primary base of operations for the invaders before they took Seandar later in the war.

 

Since the Consolidation, the Towers have remained unoccupied. Legend has it that when a time of dire need comes, the Imperial family will return to the Towers and "right that which is wrong"."

 

It is also the place where the last battle of the consolidation took place leaving Hawkwing's armies to rule Seanchan.

 

As far as Lanfear goes, if she didn't die, why would she need a new body.

I guess you could argue the snakes and foxes drained most, if not all of her channeling ability in her former body and needed a new one to be of use to the DO.

 

 

 

 

Note the title is 'Towers of Midnight' not 'the Towers of Midnight'.

 

There is no need to connect the fortress to the title. The Forsaken are, melodramatically put, 'towers' of 'midnight'.

 

Fair enough, I guess it makes more sense than I first thought.

My biggest hangup is that Aginor/Osan'gar was vaporized by fire, not Bale-fired and am still expecting him to pop up again so I always think there's 7 Forsaken left, not 6 at the time of Egwene's dream.

 

Add to that that most of the book was about the forces of light "consolidating". From Rand getting the borderlands under his banner to Perrin grabbing the Children to Elayne taking the Sun Throne and making her pact with the nations Perrin has bound to him and of course Rand's super meeting with every nation except Murandy and the Seanchan starting at the end.

Just made sense to me.

 

I would love to see an answer from BS on the subject.

[Gasha]

My biggest hangup is that Aginor/Osan'gar was vaporized by fire, not Bale-fired and am still expecting him to pop up again so I always think there's 7 Forsaken left, not 6 at the time of Egwene's dream.

 

Wasn't it said somewhere that The Dark One can only resurrect people once?

[rand4747]

My biggest hangup is that Aginor/Osan'gar was vaporized by fire, not Bale-fired and am still expecting him to pop up again so I always think there's 7 Forsaken left, not 6 at the time of Egwene's dream.

 

Wasn't it said somewhere that The Dark One can only resurrect people once?

 

 

He probably doesn't want to ressurect him again.

[Dakota]

The "Towers of Midnight" played about as important a role in this book as the "Knife of Dreams" played in it's book, or the "Path of Daggers" in it's book.

 

Towers of Midnight definately wouldn't be the first book in the series named after a random line in the Prologue or Epilogue.

 

Hell, "Knife of Dreams" would have been a more fitting title for this book than the one two books ago, since the dreamspike could be considered to be a 'knife of dreams'.

[blazetheearth]

I have also put forward that the title could be referring two the 2 black (midnight) fortresses (towers) that exist on the Randland side of the ocean. I am talking about the BT and Moridin's Fortress in the Blight. Both are made from black stone and both are described as 'towers'. And while we don't see much time in Moridin's Fortress in ToM, we do see the effects through out this book. In TGS, Graendal described Asha'man standing guard at Moridin's Fortress and she claims that they are needed to guard against the Shadowspawn that will not answer to the Forsaken. I think that Taim has been sending his SS troops to Moridin's Fortress for "advanced training". Fighting continuously guarding the Fortress would 'force' them even faster than the regular students (explaining how they grow in strength so fast) also some of the DFs that Taim found while recruiting could have been sent to Moridin first instead of the BT which would explain men like Kash showing up but already trained and strong in the power. In at least 2 of the major fights in ToM we see male channelers used by the Shadow, Maradon and Trollocs appearing by portal stone. Graendal talks to a 'servant' that Moridin lent her, the servant was a male channeler (the one that carried the Trollocs by Portal Stone) not Slayer. She blames Slayer later when talking to SH, but Slayer wasn't the 'servant' she was talking to before the Trolloc attack was sent.

 

All in all, I think that the title refers to the two separate Black Towers and the ever increasing effects of the men who were trained at them.

[akira.taylor]

My biggest hangup is that Aginor/Osan'gar was vaporized by fire, not Bale-fired and am still expecting him to pop up again so I always think there's 7 Forsaken left, not 6 at the time of Egwene's dream.

 

Wasn't it said somewhere that The Dark One can only resurrect people once?

 

 

He probably doesn't want to ressurect him again.

 

I think it may have come up (it feels like it has, but that could be my imagination) that the Dark One doesn't give third chances, only second. So, yeah, only one resurrection per Forsaken. Of course, the characters don't know that Aginor/Osan'gar, Balthamel/Aran'gar, and Asmodean are dead, and that Graendal is alive, but that doesn't change whether they are or aren't alive.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Chronologically speaking, as of Egwene's dream, Mesaana hadn't gotten smacked yet, which would leave six standing.

 

Demandred

Mesaana

Moridin

Moghedien

Lanfear

Graendal

 

I'm thinking the fledgling eagles represent something else.

[Xader]

I'm thinking the fledgling eagles represent something else.

 

Egwene "knew" what it meant.

 

She said it was a representation of the AS, ignoring the serpent (Mesaana) as it was devouring them, taking it for one of their own (Mesaana was disguised as an AS).

 

Have we ever seen Egwene to be wrong when she "knew" the meaning of a Dream?

[Eht Slat Meit]

I'm thinking the fledgling eagles represent something else.

 

Egwene "knew" what it meant.

 

She said it was a representation of the AS, ignoring the serpent (Mesaana) as it was devouring them, taking it for one of their own (Mesaana was disguised as an AS).

 

Have we ever seen Egwene to be wrong when she "knew" the meaning of a Dream?

 

She's sure of its interpretation, yes. However, unlike with Min, I don't think we have the data to support the suggestion that she's unfailingly wrong when she is sure of or knows an intrepretation. I'm inclined to agree that it's probably right, but I don't think that automatically disincludes the interpretation of Mesaana as one of the towers as well. One represents a dream of the world, while the other is a dream much closer to home.

[OptimusPrime]

Its not the fledgeling eagle one its the one she mentions just before. She sees thirteen midnight towers, and they begin to fall, but some rise again and one of them rises impossibly high, and there are six left. Moridin, Mesaana, Demandred, Graendal, Moghedien and Cyndane. Moridin is the one that grew taller. I see this as a portrayal of the Forsakens downfall and returns right from the beginning.

 

If indeed this Dream does represent the Chosen, then I think this is an indirect piece of evidence that Mazrim Taim is not a newly raised Chosen nor is he a fourteenth surviving Chosen from the AoL, because the midnight towers that the book is named after depict very closely what we know of the Chosen and if Taim was involved it would be safe to assume the ammount of towers would be one more than the number of Chosen we knew of for definite.

 

Towers of Midnight refers to the Chosen and Mazrim Taim does not hold his own place in their ranks.

[Cherubin]

'whats wrong will be righted' in dire need

Well, the last battle is coming, Seanchan is in civil war resembling Somalia or Afghanistan, your Empress, might she live forever, is legally married to Mat. Oh, and she is the last living member of the Royal Blood, and has the potential to channel. Dire need. Check.

 

What is now the thing that is wrong with the Seanchan empire, that has something to do with 'The Towers of Midnight' and shame. Hmm. Towers and shame - Probably the betrayal conducted by the first Seanchan Emperor at exactly the same place.

What could be wrong. Ah yes, the Suldam - Damane thingy, sth that really needs to be resolved one way or the other (no Saidin-Saidar anymore after the last battle?), if there ever should be peace between the Egwene and the Seanchan, or so that Tuon can remain empress and the Suldam un-collared.

 

So, Probably. For whatever crazy reason (maybe to be accepted by Seanchan society), Mat and Tuon have to beam to these Towers of Midnight; face the Fins again, survive against 1 to 1000 chances, consume their marriage. and so on. What do you think? Plausible? Will it be part of the next back, or the epilogue?

[Eht Slat Meit]

 

So, Probably. For whatever crazy reason (maybe to be accepted by Seanchan society), Mat and Tuon have to beam to these Towers of Midnight; face the Fins again, survive against 1 to 1000 chances, consume their marriage. and so on. What do you think? Plausible? Will it be part of the next back, or the epilogue?

 

Sounds like the reason for those outriggers (?) Jordan wanted to do...? I don't see all that happening in AMoL.

[chinnma]

Im almost positive that I read a Sanderson interview in which he states "the working title for this book was the three towers(with the lotr reference being intentional)" meaning the Black tower, the White tower, and the Tower of Ghenji. I think its one one of Lucker's interview threads, but i dont have time to look it up before work; if i find time later ill edit it in.

[Shadowfaxx]

Its not the fledgeling eagle one its the one she mentions just before. She sees thirteen midnight towers, and they begin to fall, but some rise again and one of them rises impossibly high, and there are six left. Moridin, Mesaana, Demandred, Graendal, Moghedien and Cyndane. Moridin is the one that grew taller. I see this as a portrayal of the Forsakens downfall and returns right from the beginning.

 

If indeed this Dream does represent the Chosen, then I think this is an indirect piece of evidence that Mazrim Taim is not a newly raised Chosen nor is he a fourteenth surviving Chosen from the AoL, because the midnight towers that the book is named after depict very closely what we know of the Chosen and if Taim was involved it would be safe to assume the ammount of towers would be one more than the number of Chosen we knew of for definite.

 

Towers of Midnight refers to the Chosen and Mazrim Taim does not hold his own place in their ranks.

O.o you speak like a Darkfriend.... haha, just kidding.

 

Thanks everyone for your replies. I get it now... more or less.