Aludra's cannons and the Seanchan

[USURP888]

The biggest obstacle for peace ( or at least a ceasefire ) between the Seanchan and the rest of Randland is the issue of Damane. The Seanchan would not part with their weapon and the AS, wiseones and the seafolk will not rest easy while there is a constant threat of them getting collared, not to mention those that have already been collared.

 

I feel like the best inducement for the seanchan to stop collaring damane is to convince them that it is an obsolete "technology" and that Aludra's cannons are the weapons of the future. Certainly Tuon saw the potential of the repeating crossbow as a very big advantage and I am sure she will be quick to realize the firepower of the dragons just as Elayne and Birgette had.

 

Mat has the plans and I think he might use it to bargain with tuon in order to get them to unite with the rest of the randland armies that will be under his command. The only problem here is that Aludra hates the Seanchan and will never allow the cannons to be shared with the Seanchan. Therefore, I have this odd feeling that she will die somehow. I know it is not in any of the prophecies but I can't seem to shake this theory in my mind.

[randsc]

Well, if she doesn't die, she's going to be the victim of a massive double-cross, that's for sure.

 

Almost everyone (including me) assumes that Mat will somehow bring the Seanchan under the Dragon's banner. How this will square with the promises he made to Aludra is difficult to see.

[yoniy0]

Now that the damane know Travelling, I disagree that they're obsolete as weapons. Also, we can refer to the future Aviendha saw as a reference point. The Seanchan had little problem to live in peace with the rest of the Randlanders, it seems. It was the Aiel that were the troublemakers.

[Mr Ares]

I feel like the best inducement for the seanchan to stop collaring damane is to convince them that it is an obsolete "technology" and that Aludra's cannons are the weapons of the future. Certainly Tuon saw the potential of the repeating crossbow as a very big advantage and I am sure she will be quick to realize the firepower of the dragons just as Elayne and Birgette had.

I'm not convinced the Seanchan will see the advantage in swapping one weapon for an inferior one - having cannons might be an advantage over not having them, but they are not much advantage over damane. If it had to be one or the other, choose damane - they are more powerful and versatile.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I fail to see how they can't just declare an armistice for the greater good. The Seanchan are allowed their damane and their upkeep in the lands they control, the Randlanders are allowed to keep damane they captured off the Seanchan. The Seanchan are forbidden from taking new damane by raids outside of their established borders, the Randlanders are forbidden from undertaking actions to steal damane. The release of damane captured since the Seanchan reconquista can be negotiated between individual parties for monetary compensation (the entire campaigning is probably putting a gaping hole in the Seanchan treasury).

 

 

The Dark One is breaking out threatening to doom existence itself and the conflicting parties can't put aside petty squabbles to save the actual plane of existence they reside on. It's ridiculously stupid.

[David Selig]

I really don't see Mat going behind Aludra's back and giving the plans for the Dragons to the Seanchan, this will be totally against his character.

 

I don't see Tuon agreeing to such a deal anyway, the damane are a lot more useful than the Dragons, not only in battle, but for transportation now that they have Travelling available, also for Healing, discovering ore deposits, etc. Not to mention that releasing the damane goes against the core of the Imperial ideology.

[Durinax]

Healing doesnt count in with the value of damane, since their ideology prevents them from seeking Healing.

[moratcorlm]

Healing doesnt count in with the value of damane, since their ideology prevents them from seeking Healing.

What? No it doesn't. Their bigotry prevents them from seeking Healing. But that can change, with time, and the Empress's strong support for it.

 

Time they don't have, but in another setting it would become commonplace.

[ranjitb]

The Seanchan don't collar Damane because they are obsolete/non-obsolete weapons, they do it because they believe they are dangerous animals who are a threat to "Real" humans.

There is no way the New-Rand, let alone All-Mother Egwene, Queen Elayne, Aiel Wise Ones, Sea Folk Windfinders, or whoever will agree to an armistice that allows the damane system to exist (or expand to men).

 

Or I hope so anyway. I still have hope that what Rand said way back in TGH holds true - "What does it matter if I win the last battle ....(paraphrase)..... if I leave Egwene to THAT"

[Durinax]

The Seanchan don't collar Damane because they are obsolete/non-obsolete weapons, they do it because they believe they are dangerous animals who are a threat to "Real" humans.

There is no way the New-Rand, let alone All-Mother Egwene, Queen Elayne, Aiel Wise Ones, Sea Folk Windfinders, or whoever will agree to an armistice that allows the damane system to exist (or expand to men).

 

Or I hope so anyway. I still have hope that what Rand said way back in TGH holds true - "What does it matter if I win the last battle ....(paraphrase)..... if I leave Egwene to THAT"

I hope to see rand challenge fortuona to put on a collar, and in her arrogence do it and get trapped (I saw in her arrogence becuase she believes she isnt a marath damane because she chooses not too be

[yoniy0]

There is no way the New-Rand, let alone All-Mother Egwene, Queen Elayne, Aiel Wise Ones, Sea Folk Windfinders, or whoever will agree to an armistice that allows the damane system to exist (or expand to men).

 

Or I hope so anyway. I still have hope that what Rand said way back in TGH holds true - "What does it matter if I win the last battle ....(paraphrase)..... if I leave Egwene to THAT"

Again, you're ignoring Aviendha's vision. There definitely is a strong possibility that the Seanchan will be allowed to continue the practice post-TG.

[Suttree]

The Seanchan don't collar Damane because they are obsolete/non-obsolete weapons, they do it because they believe they are dangerous animals who are a threat to "Real" humans.

There is no way the New-Rand, let alone All-Mother Egwene, Queen Elayne, Aiel Wise Ones, Sea Folk Windfinders, or whoever will agree to an armistice that allows the damane system to exist (or expand to men).

 

Or I hope so anyway. I still have hope that what Rand said way back in TGH holds true - "What does it matter if I win the last battle ....(paraphrase)..... if I leave Egwene to THAT"

I hope to see rand challenge fortuona to put on a collar, and in her arrogence do it and get trapped (I saw in her arrogence becuase she believes she isnt a marath damane because she chooses not too be

 

Well for now it is true. Fortuona can not be held by the A'dam unless she chooses consciously to learn how to channel. She hasn't worked long enough with Damane.

[Mr Ares]

The Seanchan don't collar Damane because they are obsolete/non-obsolete weapons, they do it because they believe they are dangerous animals who are a threat to "Real" humans.

There is no way the New-Rand, let alone All-Mother Egwene, Queen Elayne, Aiel Wise Ones, Sea Folk Windfinders, or whoever will agree to an armistice that allows the damane system to exist (or expand to men).

 

Or I hope so anyway. I still have hope that what Rand said way back in TGH holds true - "What does it matter if I win the last battle ....(paraphrase)..... if I leave Egwene to THAT"

The Last Battle is coming. The hordes of Trollocs are loosed, the Blightborder is falling. The release of damane is a massive cultural shift, and these women could not be made battle ready as individuals in time - the Light needs the Seanchan as allies, here and now, damane and all. They do not have time for it to be otherwise. So they need an armistice. After TG, things are different. Then they can go back to fighting, and try to free the damane. Long term, I agree that it is undesirable to let the Seanchan enslave women like that, but in the short term it is necessary.

[ranjitb]

Again, you're ignoring Aviendha's vision. There definitely is a strong possibility that the Seanchan will be allowed to continue the practice post-TG.

 

I'm not ignoring it, but I believe people are reading her vision too narrowly, i.e. Aiel war with Seanchan = Disaster.

 

I actually believe Aviendha's vision translates to Aiel building empire in the name of the Dragon = disaster.

In my opinion, the so-called future will be avoided by the Aiel en masse laying down their weapons and reverting to their AOL "Service to the AS" mode of living, thus removing the largest remaining loyalist force from the control of Rand and placing it under All-Mother Egwayne, but that's a rant for a different thread perhaps.

[Taura-Tierno]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

This is the Seanchan position. Now think politics. If a large coalition of channelers started massacring and annihilating entire segments of the Seanchan structure in a war. How do you think many common people would view this? Aes Sedai are already often viewed with suspicion. Such a coalition would simply not work since it would play into the fears of the commoners and rulers too much. The end result would simply be that many who formerly detested the Seanchan would side alongside them out of fear. Fear is a powerful motivator.

[Suttree]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

[moratcorlm]

What Rembrandt is saying is that the justification is echoed today in the puppetmaster White Tower – and will probably always be echoed, by the 'power corrupts' principle. Channelers need to have guiding ethics and limitations imposed upon them somehow; obviously, most of us agree that self-governance is better than the damane system, which does nothing but shift the danger of a channeler to the next remove of whoever holds her leash, but the White Tower has failed in a lot of regards. It does not command the respect that the Hall of Servants had in the last Age, nor does it deserve to. Some new compact will have to be formed, and preferably one which actually features justice rather than an attempt at preemption coupled with secrecy and avoidance of being called to account.

 

Well, Dominic has written more eloquently on it than I can. I'll see if I can find his posts.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

[gambril]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

This is the Seanchan position. Now think politics. If a large coalition of channelers started massacring and annihilating entire segments of the Seanchan structure in a war. How do you think many common people would view this? Aes Sedai are already often viewed with suspicion. Such a coalition would simply not work since it would play into the fears of the commoners and rulers too much. The end result would simply be that many who formerly detested the Seanchan would side alongside them out of fear. Fear is a powerful motivator.

 

This man speaks the truth. Up until recently I used to loathe the Seanchan and still do to a certain extent (a'dam/da'covale). But as far as their zeal to put all Aes Sedai on leashes I agree with. What I mean by that is the Seanchan won't put up with Aes Sedai meddling with rulers, manipulating them and even going so far as to kidnap them. So no, not leashes literally but moreso bringing them around to fulfilling their true purpose again as servants. I don't agree with the method in which they accomplish this goal however.

 

But yeah what I quoted I agree with. The irony is a bit deep indeed. Seanchan are against Aes Sedai for disrupting order and not respecting the soverignty of nations (only the White Tower matters right?). And Aes Sedai are against the Seanchan for the a'dam. All instigated by Ishymael, brilliant! But what the Pattern (Jordan) did was use Ishy's manipulation to bring about the changes that are needed for both of their cultures (Seanchan/Aes Sedai), very sly.

 

Bring Aes Sedai to heel, teach those hags some humility (shouldn't they have learned this after failing hardcore over the past 12 books? le sigh) and discontue use of the a'dam and da'covale and we can all be happy! In effect, destrying Ishy's manipulations over the past 3k years to boot!

[Suttree]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

As does every noble in Randland but that's a different arguement.

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

[gambril]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

It has nothing to do with using the Power. If I have a loaded gun (channeling) pointed at your face threatening you, whether directly or indirectly and telling you to either come with me (kidnappping) or telling you what you will do,does it matter if I use that loaded gun? The end result is the same, you're going to be doing what I say. (for the benefit of the White Tower, not for the benefit of that country mind. If it does happen to benefit said country/ruler...it's an after thought and not the true intent of an Aes Sedai). This is what's truly disgusting, I can put up with manipulation for my own benefit (hi2u Moiraine) but for the benefit of Aes Sedai? No thankyou, bugger off.

 

All the rulers of Randland (minus Murandy) gathering at the Fields of Merrilor due to a letter by the Amyrlin doesn't signify the White Tower's iron grip on Randland, then I don't know what will. Or the comment that even the LCC of the Whitecloaks would come to a summon by the Amrylin...

If you don't know after reading 13 books that rulers of Randland don't act without considering what Aes Sedai will think or do because of said acts, then I don't know why I even try.

[Suttree]

I doubt any channeling party will want peace with the Seanchan as long as they keep damane. There will always be the risk that they seek damane outside their Borders since it's such a strong part of their ideology. It's an offense to all channelers, and if the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, Windfinders and possibly the Asha'man unite, they Seanchan would be at a serious disadvantage, both in numbers and the fact that they cannot link and don't have any angreal.

 

 

The irony is a bit deep. The Seanchan collar channelers because they misuse their abilities to assert dominance, manipulate and oppress those without the ability. The White Tower is known for kidnapping the rulers of nations, manipulating people to no end, always seeking to expand their power base and then they claim innocent indignation when the Seanchan come along proclaiming the segregation of channelers from society is for everyones benefit.

 

You do realize all of that happened back in Hawkwings time right?

 

Quite a big difference from this to the reality of the situation which is forced slavery and treating people as less than human because of they way they are born.

 

 

How do the Aes Sedai not treat those born without the ability to channel as inferior? Putting themselves on a pedestal in society based solely on their genes at birth? Declaring and noting themselves to be superior to non-channelers to the point that many Aes Sedai are rather derisive of anyone who cannot channel. Likewise seeing it their birthright to attempt to manipulate, overthrow and control the non-channeling elements of the world.

 

While arguably not as bad as the Seanchan slavery. It's definitely to be abhorred in near the same fashion. Both hold the world by a leash, the Seanchan's is just a wee bit tighter.

 

 

The Aes Sedai only have complete control over Tar Valon. No present day Aes Sedai has used channeling to "oppress those w/o the ability". Who have they attempted to overthrow with the power? Again a huge difference between political manipulation and overt use of the one power with force. If they had been attempting to conquer and unify Randland under the Amrylin's rule you might have an argument. You can not compare political maneuvering to forced slavery.

 

It has nothing to do withusing the Power. If I have a loaded gun (channeling) pointed at your face threatening you, whether directly or indirectly and telling you to either come with me (kidnappping) or telling you what you will do (for the benefit of the White Tower mind, not for the benefit of that country mind you. If it does happen to benefit said country/ruler...it's an after thought and not the true intent of an Aes Sedai) then it's the same thing.

 

All the rulers of Randland (minus Murandy) gathering at the Fields of Merrilor due to a letter by the Amyrlin doesn't signify the White Tower's iron grip on Randland, then I don't know what will. Or the comment that even the LCC of the Whitecloaks would come to a summon by the Amrylin...

If you don't know after reading 13 books that rulers of Randland don't act without considering what Aes Sedai will think or do because of said acts, then I don't know why I even try.

 

Quick questions, when you say "for benefit of the WT" what do you think that means? In your mind what is the AS goal? Do you think they believe they are acting for the common good?

 

With kidnapping you are talking about something that non channelers have been know to do in the series as well, it is not unique to Elaida. In terms of the gathering at FoM... well it concerns the last battle and fate of the world, I would hope said rulers would be in attendance. You still have not explained how forced slavery stands on the same moral ground as political maneuvering from a position of strength.

[David Selig]

Iron grip is really stretching it. Sure, the Tower was the most influential political entity in Randland before the Dragon Reborn came, but they weren't in total control by any means. In Amadicia they were killed on sight and they could do nothing to change the laws there. In Tear channelling was outlawed and again the Aes Sedai couldn't do anything to change that. The wars between Tarabon and Arad Doman continue to happen almost every year, despite attempts of the Tower to ensure a long term peace. In Cairhien, we were told in TGH that the king would've kept the Horn of Valere for himself even against Verin and the Tower's wishes to take it.

 

If they were strong enough to control everything directly, they wouldn't have needed to manipulate the monarchs and nobles, they would've ordered them directly all the time.

[Taura-Tierno]

I agree that the Aes Sedai have been corrupted to a certain degree and lost their way somewhat (at least some of them). But on the greater whole, they do a lot of good. They Heal people, although they could certainly do more in that department. They captured men who could channel, which is something only they could do properly. They always try to bring the nations together and preventing unnecessary disputes and wars. The Brown Ajah gathers knowledge, which is a noble thing to do any day. For the most part, they do seem to use their power for good, even if there are some exceptions.

 

And I think it'd be easy for anyone who's over a 100 years and healthy, with at least another 100 to live, to put themselves on a pedestal. Having a couple of centuries on your neck does give you a perspective that "ordinary" people lack. So I think it's only natural that those who'll live many, many times longer than ordinary people will want to be in charge, in one way or another. Even during the AoL channelers controlled things. Lews Therin was their leader and summoned those rods of dominion who were regional governors.

 

But then, the Aes Sedai is the only group out of the three we've seen in the westlands that has achieved that power and been "corrupted". The Wise Ones are extremely respected, and they have a lot of influence. Same with Windfinders.

 

If the Windfinders and Wise Ones wanted the Seanchan gone and unleashed themselves on them, I doubt the Aiel or Seafolk would consider it bad in any way. It would, after all, be self-defense, since the Seanchan are a real threat to their existence.

 

And I don't think that the channelers of the westlands assaulting the Seanchan would necessarily alter the views towards channelers in general. After all, there would be little difference between a collared channelers used as a weapon by the one holding the leash than a free channeler using it as a weapon for some other reason. The channelers would still be around and be used as a weapon.

 

Of course, I guess some people would consider it better, like people from Amadicia and maybe Tear. But the Borderlanders, among others, have a very deep respect for the Aes Sedai and the White Tower.