Four Lines of the Dragon Reborn?

[Mr Ares]

Okay, sorry.

I know that Aviendha had quadruplets, but I couldn't figure out whether he was referring to the line of the four quadruplets, or to the overall three lines.

Confuscation.

There are not three lines overall. A wife is not a line of descent, a child is.

 

 

- Fish

 

 

Why Im Thankful To 2010: Getting to hear the phrase ''At the end of the day'' 6 Brazillion times and words like ''Trending'' - ''Fail'' - Epic'' - ''Ownage'' and ''FTW'' (Or is that last one an actual 'word'?) ... Also Im thankful that my suspicions about Graendal were right alll along...That she IS hotter than Halima, Berelain and Lanfear.

 

''I have another man to kill first."- Thom Merrilin; a gleeman and one-time court bard...known by some as 'The Gray Fox' - according to Moiraine Damodred; an Aes Sedai of the Blue Ajah.

 

 

WAR The Gray Fox!!!

I think someday, someone might have to sit you down and explain the concept of a "sig".

 

 

I, personally, hope it will. Having just 1 book for all the things that are yet to happen would be extremely rushed. Anyhow, have any official info or just your own speculation? Or did I just... Misinterpret that? xD

AMoL will not be two books. The current estimate is for less than either TGS or ToM, and if it did have to expand it could do so for quite a way beyind those lengths before it started hitting the lengths of LoC, TSR, or WoK, and a further split really became necessary. Current estimate is, according to wikipedia, 250,000 words. ToM was 328K, TSR (the longest WoT book) was 394K, and WoK was about 400K. There is quite a lot of room for growth before they can really justify another split.

 

Mr Sir:

 

Two Things:

 

1 Can I sit on your lap?

No.

 

2 Have you read WOK - and, if so, did you like it?

No, I'm only part way through.

 

3 Whats wrong with my sig?

 

 

- Fish

Ananta already answered that one. It would save you having to type Fish at the end of all your posts.

[Guest Ishu161]

AMoL will not be two books. The current estimate is for less than either TGS or ToM, and if it did have to expand it could do so for quite a way beyind those lengths before it started hitting the lengths of LoC, TSR, or WoK, and a further split really became necessary. Current estimate is, according to wikipedia, 250,000 words. ToM was 328K, TSR (the longest WoT book) was 394K, and WoK was about 400K. There is quite a lot of room for growth before they can really justify another split.

 

err...WoK ??

[UncleButcher1980]

The Way of Kings.

[Xader]

In ToM, the part where Aviendha is Ladalin, Aiel Wise One, she mentions that she is the the descendant of the Dragon (and Aviendha). Quote: "She was of the lineage of the Dragon, one of the last living. The other three lines had been killed off."-ToM, pg. 726, Chapter: The Court of the Sun

It says the other three lines. But we know for sure that Rand already has three consorts, and therefore three lines. However, this was written from a Dragon-born's point of view. Does that mean that there is going to be a fourth line? And whom might that be from?

 

Speculation on the Fourth:

It could be Lanfear, especially when taking in the fact that Brandon Sanderson threw in that last tidbit of Cyndane in Rand's dream. Does she... dare I say it... reform?

 

Just a bit of random speculation. Comment?

 

-Shadowfaxx

 

Re Lanfaer/Cyndane: It's a trap!

 

Sidenote: How does TVtropes not have Admiral Ackbar as a reference on that page!?

[Rcurran]

Two books?! Brandon wearing an a-dam or something? Got Harriet holding the leash? //Brandon put down his pen and burning pain coursed through his body. "You will write two books, Fluffy" "My name is Brandon" he wept but it did no good, Harriet would not let him stop writing, it had already been three moons since the last book and the empress grew impatient.//

[yoniy0]

Paul Mua'Dib [...] is more amoral and evil in his deeds than the actual villains.

Hmm, if I may threadjack for a minute, how do you figure? Is he less moral than Shaddam IV (who enslaves an entire nation on a prison planet just to make them into good soldiers), Baron Harkonnen (who rapes little boys and enjoys murder in his free time) or Rabban (who sometimes hunts fellow human beings as a sport)? I would even find it hard to support the position that the Bene Gesserits are more moral than he.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Paul Mua'Dib [...] is more amoral and evil in his deeds than the actual villains.

Hmm, if I may threadjack for a minute, how do you figure? Is he less moral than Shaddam IV (who enslaves an entire nation on a prison planet just to make them into good soldiers), Baron Harkonnen (who rapes little boys and enjoys murder in his free time) or Rabban (who sometimes hunts fellow human beings as a sport)? I would even find it hard to support the position that the Bene Gesserits are more moral than he.

 

 

(warning a few spoilers ahead)

 

You mean besides claiming there are no innocents in justification to his mother as to his wholesale slaughter of prisoners (including civilians)? Then proceeding to supplant himself as the dictator of an Empire by threatening to implement a galactic genocide by blowing up the entire source of the spice. Thereby condemning millions to slow death by addiction, many more by starvation as space travel breaks down, etc...

 

He instates himself as the Godhead of a fanatic religious order, declaring himself the Messiah. Thereby establishing a fundamentalist theocracy where his likeness was to be worshipped. Furthermore once in power he proceeds, in accordance to the previous religious undertaking, to unleash his Fremen legions unto the remnants of the Empire in a holy Jihad which cost the lives of billions upon billions of humans. The worst bloodshed since the Butlerian Jihad millenia prior, leaving entire planets depopulated. While this he still selfishly uses the Fremen by delaying on his promise to bring green bloom/life to Arrakis.

 

In the end though he falters and cannot cope with the magnitude of his creation. In Dune:Messiah there is a rather interesting conversation between Paul and Stilgar. Paul wonders about his Jihad and all the people being murdered in his name, he then proceeds to compare himself to Genghis Khan and Hitler. Quoting to Stilgar the number of deaths attributed to both dictators/conquerors, Stilgar proceeds to call them both great warriors to have killed so many. Paul musingly corrects Stilgar and says that is the number their armies killed, a pebble in the sand compared to the bloodshed his own Fremen legions were inflicting. Reflectively Paul then insinuates that he is a much greater monster than either Hitler or Khan.

 

 

 

Later on Paul falters and leaves. No longer being able to live with the burden of his sins. Instead opting to ride a worm out into the desert in isolation, leaving the Empire he forged with blood and death to his son. The same son who would later be known as "The Great Tyrant or God Emperor" and call his own father weak for not stepping up and fulfilling his role, instead cowardly running away into the desert.

 

 

 

Needless to say. Understand why I consider Paul and his son to be in most ways a much worse person than the villains? I mean as you said what did Shaddam or Harkonnen do? Nothing that is even a speck on the scale of the protagonists actions. You can justify the deeds or claim leniency if you wish, but that doesn't really change the fact that those things happened.

[yoniy0]

I respectfully reject some of your arguments, and your conclusion. The jihad is basically the only real crime you can accredit to Paul. Well, he is weak in his inability to stop it, certainly, but he did try to. For me, it counts to something. Case in point - Rand undoubtedly caused many deaths himself. Mat will end up being responsible for even more. For that matter, Eddard Stark did his share of foolish mistakes which ended up costing people their lives, as did his firstborn son. If you look for unsullied heroes, you'll have trouble finding them even in naive works such as the Belgariad or the world of Pern. Merry and Pippin are probably the last examples I can think of in modern fantasy (BTW one of them, I can't remember which, did disobey his king, didn't he?). TWoT is in no way different from what counts as mainstream in that regard.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Uhhhhh. Threatening to destroy the entire galaxy by blowing up the spice gets a free pass just because the Padishah Emperor was a reasonable man? Also your comparison is flawed. The villains in WoT are much worse than Rand or his actions. The Forsaken between themselves leveled entire cities, tortured countless, etc.. And the DO simply wants to end all existence. I don't know. I think Rand will have a tough time keeping up with that, since they certainly set the bar up pretty damn high.

 

In Dune there is relative peace and although life is not perfect in the galaxy, holy hell did Paul decide to make it worse. Whatever you can say about the Harkonnens or the Padishah Emperor, they were definitely not going around slaughtering billions upon billions in a crusade with religiously fanatic legions. Paul knew what he was getting into well before that point, due to his ability to see into the future. Being the Kwasitz Haderach and all, he still decided to consciously follow through on the matter, making it a willed decision. It's even why Herbert, the author attempts to have Paul paint himself as one of the most bloodthirsty human conquerors. By having Paul downplay the deeds of Genghis Khan and Hitler to be insignificant to his own deeds.

[Shadowfaxx]

Whoa.

I'm a bit over halfway done with Dune, and it's... interesting. Don't know if I'd say good or bad, but I still want to read it.

So the great bloody jihad with the Atreides banner does happen... ouch.

[Sid]

Sanderson's said a number of times that he sees no reason why it would be longer than one more book. His estimate (that I think read on his twitter) was about the length of ToM. I actually trust him a lot more than RJ when hes says things like this.

[deltadisco]

Paul Mua'Dib [...] is more amoral and evil in his deeds than the actual villains.

Hmm, if I may threadjack for a minute, how do you figure? Is he less moral than Shaddam IV (who enslaves an entire nation on a prison planet just to make them into good soldiers), Baron Harkonnen (who rapes little boys and enjoys murder in his free time) or Rabban (who sometimes hunts fellow human beings as a sport)? I would even find it hard to support the position that the Bene Gesserits are more moral than he.

 

*snip*

 

Needless to say. Understand why I consider Paul and his son to be in most ways a much worse person than the villains? I mean as you said what did Shaddam or Harkonnen do? Nothing that is even a speck on the scale of the protagonists actions. You can justify the deeds or claim leniency if you wish, but that doesn't really change the fact that those things happened.

 

 

 

Though what they did was terrible.. do you really consider it "amoral" or "evil" when both saw that that path was the only that actually *ensured* the survival of the human race? Frank Herbert never explicitly stated what the threat was, but the newer books (admittedly all mind-numbingly inferior to the original six) do.

 

Paul and Leto II are both tragic characters in that they both had to give up their humanity to save humanity. Of course one could argue that Paul's only REAL failing was his unwillingness to actually go through with what he started.. leaving Leto to continue in his place.

 

At any rate.. the real "Hero" in the Dune saga is and always will be Duncan Idaho. =)

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Paul Mua'Dib [...] is more amoral and evil in his deeds than the actual villains.

Hmm, if I may threadjack for a minute, how do you figure? Is he less moral than Shaddam IV (who enslaves an entire nation on a prison planet just to make them into good soldiers), Baron Harkonnen (who rapes little boys and enjoys murder in his free time) or Rabban (who sometimes hunts fellow human beings as a sport)? I would even find it hard to support the position that the Bene Gesserits are more moral than he.

 

*snip*

 

Needless to say. Understand why I consider Paul and his son to be in most ways a much worse person than the villains? I mean as you said what did Shaddam or Harkonnen do? Nothing that is even a speck on the scale of the protagonists actions. You can justify the deeds or claim leniency if you wish, but that doesn't really change the fact that those things happened.

 

 

 

Though what they did was terrible.. do you really consider it "amoral" or "evil" when both saw that that path was the only that actually *ensured* the survival of the human race? Frank Herbert never explicitly stated what the threat was, but the newer books (admittedly all mind-numbingly inferior to the original six) do.

 

Paul and Leto II are both tragic characters in that they both had to give up their humanity to save humanity. Of course one could argue that Paul's only REAL failing was his unwillingness to actually go through with what he started.. leaving Leto to continue in his place.

 

At any rate.. the real "Hero" in the Dune saga is and always will be Duncan Idaho. =)

 

 

Whether it is evil? Herbert, bless him, thankfully avoids all that black vs white or good vs evil diatribe that ruins many other series with lots of promise. There is arguably no good or bad in the Dune Universe. Oddly outside of the original 6, those books that Herbert's son writes, there is a much clearer moral compass which disappoints me and robs the books of some of their uniqueness.

 

As for the events in Dune. Paul certainly seemed to believe they were evil. From the very beginning he felt the need to justify it even to his mother. Later on he was so broken and disgusted by the entire affair and the billions of slain lives on his hands that he fled as a recluse into the desert. Later on still, in the final chapter of his life he becomes a rabble preacher ranting and yelling against everything he once stood for. Completely antagonizing mobs, whilst in disguise, against himself and his legacy as a form of redemption.

 

His son was much colder and ruthless. He had no qualms about fulfilling "the golden path," however to be fair by this point the Jihad had already reached it's apex so he didn't have as much on his plate as Paul did. But Leto sums it up rather well when he tells his father (in preacher disguise), that he was born as a wild variable into this universe to complete what Paul couldn't. What Paul was too weak to see through. It is rather telling that Paul begs his son not to follow through on the golden path.

 

As for good and evil. You will notice Herbert specifically uses "the best chance for humanity's survival," the Jihad and all that doesn't ensure it. It merely provides a branching that gives a stronger probability to humanities continuation in the future. So would you say it's evil to break an entire Empire apart, enslave everyone to your vital resource, threaten to destroy the said vital resource which murder billions upon billions unless they adhered to your every command, then actually proceed to murder billions upon billion in a religiously fanatic crusade, etc.. etc.. simply to statistically increase the chance that humans might survive a few millenia onwards. Not even an absolute, nor is it implied that not to follow through on the golden path will doom humanity, it will merely make their chance for survival lower.

 

That is a moral predicament that Herbert built into the book which is rather tough to answer.

[deltadisco]

Paul Mua'Dib [...] is more amoral and evil in his deeds than the actual villains.

Hmm, if I may threadjack for a minute, how do you figure? Is he less moral than Shaddam IV (who enslaves an entire nation on a prison planet just to make them into good soldiers), Baron Harkonnen (who rapes little boys and enjoys murder in his free time) or Rabban (who sometimes hunts fellow human beings as a sport)? I would even find it hard to support the position that the Bene Gesserits are more moral than he.

 

*snip*

 

Needless to say. Understand why I consider Paul and his son to be in most ways a much worse person than the villains? I mean as you said what did Shaddam or Harkonnen do? Nothing that is even a speck on the scale of the protagonists actions. You can justify the deeds or claim leniency if you wish, but that doesn't really change the fact that those things happened.

 

 

 

Though what they did was terrible.. do you really consider it "amoral" or "evil" when both saw that that path was the only that actually *ensured* the survival of the human race? Frank Herbert never explicitly stated what the threat was, but the newer books (admittedly all mind-numbingly inferior to the original six) do.

 

Paul and Leto II are both tragic characters in that they both had to give up their humanity to save humanity. Of course one could argue that Paul's only REAL failing was his unwillingness to actually go through with what he started.. leaving Leto to continue in his place.

 

At any rate.. the real "Hero" in the Dune saga is and always will be Duncan Idaho. =)

 

 

Whether it is evil? Herbert, bless him, thankfully avoids all that black vs white or good vs evil diatribe that ruins many other series with lots of promise. There is arguably no good or bad in the Dune Universe. Oddly outside of the original 6, those books that Herbert's son writes, there is a much clearer moral compass which disappoints me and robs the books of some of their uniqueness.

 

As for the events in Dune. Paul certainly seemed to believe they were evil. From the very beginning he felt the need to justify it even to his mother. Later on he was so broken and disgusted by the entire affair and the billions of slain lives on his hands that he fled as a recluse into the desert. Later on still, in the final chapter of his life he becomes a rabble preacher ranting and yelling against everything he once stood for. Completely antagonizing mobs, whilst in disguise, against himself and his legacy as a form of redemption.

 

His son was much colder and ruthless. He had no qualms about fulfilling "the golden path," however to be fair by this point the Jihad had already reached it's apex so he didn't have as much on his plate as Paul did. But Leto sums it up rather well when he tells his father (in preacher disguise), that he was born as a wild variable into this universe to complete what Paul couldn't. What Paul was too weak to see through. It is rather telling that Paul begs his son not to follow through on the golden path.

 

As for good and evil. You will notice Herbert specifically uses "the best chance for humanity's survival," the Jihad and all that doesn't ensure it. It merely provides a branching that gives a stronger probability to humanities continuation in the future. So would you say it's evil to break an entire Empire apart, enslave everyone to your vital resource, threaten to destroy the said vital resource which murder billions upon billions unless they adhered to your every command, then actually proceed to murder billions upon billion in a religiously fanatic crusade, etc.. etc.. simply to statistically increase the chance that humans might survive a few millenia onwards. Not even an absolute, nor is it implied that not to follow through on the golden path will doom humanity, it will merely make their chance for survival lower.

 

That is a moral predicament that Herbert built into the book which is rather tough to answer.

 

I've not read the Dune books in years.. but I'm almost certain it was stated that options other than The Golden Path all led to the end of humanity. It might be that it only offered up the *chance* for survival.. but that distinction still makes all the difference. Yes, Paul knew the terrible things he had to do. Leto also knew he was a monster.. but the only thing more monstrous was to ignore the knowledge he'd been given. It's still a moral conundrum.. but I could have sworn there was much less gray area than you are implying.

 

On top of all of that there's the whole idea that Paul and Leto were trapped by prescience - that by witnessing the future they were then given no option but to choose the (relative - and debatable) lesser of many, many evils.

[Aliriel]

Ok, this might sound a little stupid, but with does WoK stand for? I honestly can't think of anything that could fit.

 

A.

[Mulk]

probably Brandon's separate work Way of Kings

[Mandro]

Okay, sorry.

I know that Aviendha had quadruplets, but I couldn't figure out whether he was referring to the line of the four quadruplets, or to the overall three lines.

Confuscation.

 

-Shadowfaxx

P.S. Is Dune good? Contemplating reading it.

 

Dune is pretty good. Alia is kind of awesome (admittedly, in a creepy sort of way). The sequels . . . get weird (more mysticism, mostly, and some spoiler-ish things). The 2006 movie is pretty bad, I think (I got to the third scene of people, and decided that the shields' special effects have earned who ever did the special effects unemployment). There was an older movie, which I vaguely recall as good (but it has been long enough, I couldn't say what the plot was, even having now read the book).

 

I liked the David Lynch attempt, but it really wasn't very honorable to the book. The Weirding Way isn't some sort of technology or magical power, it is Kung Fu. It's really pretty clear in the book.

 

As for if it's good, Dune, the first book is damn near magic. The next two, Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune are pretty good, the rest are strange and hard to get into unless you are a fan. I had to drink my way through chapterhouse.