AoL Aes Sedai during the Breaking

[Taura-Tierno]

I think I remember reading _somewhere_ that no AoL Aes Sedai survived the Breaking. I think it was a quote from RJ, but I'm not entirely sure, since I don't seem to find it now.

 

Is it stated anywhere? If yes, where? I mean, theoretically some could've survived those 300 years. I just have this memory of reading that at the end of the Breaking, everyone who had lived during the AoL was dead. I know it says that the Breaking ended when the last male Aes Sedai died, so I'm not referring to that.

[blazetheearth]

I think I remember reading _somewhere_ that no AoL Aes Sedai survived the Breaking. I think it was a quote from RJ, but I'm not entirely sure, since I don't seem to find it now.

 

Is it stated anywhere? If yes, where? I mean, theoretically some could've survived those 300 years. I just have this memory of reading that at the end of the Breaking, everyone who had lived during the AoL was dead. I know it says that the Breaking ended when the last male Aes Sedai died, so I'm not referring to that.

 

The visions from Rhuidean. At least 2 AoL AS survived until after the Jenn began to build Rhuidean. They were probably newly raised during the War of Power, if so they could have lived that 300 years plus possibly 300 to 400 afterward. The Breaking resulted from the Strike on Shayol Ghul. The Bore was drilled approximately 100 to 120 years before the Strike. The War of Power began almost 11 years before the Strike, so any AS raised after the Bore was created but before the War could have easily survived the additional 600 years assuming that she could avoid the potential conflicts (the remaining unsealed Forsaken, the men causing the Breaking, etc.). And the woman in the Pillar Visions that possessed the Foretelling and made the prophecy was an AS at least that is how the Aiel in the vision treat and think of her.

[moratcorlm]

At least 2 AoL AS survived until after the Jenn began to build Rhuidean.

Those two at least are specifically not from before the Breaking.

Q: "Was the Aes Sedai who initiated the Pact of Rhuidean from the Age of Legends?".

RJ: "No. No, she was not from the Age of Legends."

I can't find anything ruling out anyone else, though. It would be kind of peculiar if they all just died off. But then, it's kind of peculiar that knowledge things like Traveling died out instead. Certainly there were AOL Aes Sedai alive during the Breaking, like the ones Rand saw in Paaran Disen, or the one who took angreal from the Aiel and said Ishamael was still around.

 

The information I think you are both referring to is from the Guide:

Given the exceedingly long lifespan of Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends, it would seem possible that at least some Aes Sedai who were alive at the beginning of the Breaking, even some who lived when the Bore was drilled, were still living when the Breaking ended. Over the centuries there has been considerable speculation, some rather wild, about this. However, the increasingly violent nature of the times, from the drilling of the Bore to the beginning of the War of the Shadow, the war itself, and finally the centuries of the Breaking, suggest that no Aes Sedai alive at the end of the Breaking had survived that entire span, or even a significant portion of it. The one possible exception may be the Aes Sedai who were involved in the building of Rhuidean, in the Aiel Waste. Tantalizing rumors claim that Aiel Wise Ones and clan chiefs may know something of this, but unless they can be induced to be more forthcoming—and so far, they are rigidly closemouthed—little is likely to be learned beyond the fact that Aes Sedai were involved.

It has to be taken into consideration, though, that Jordan had Teresa Patterson write the book as if she were an ACOS-contemporary historian, and as the last sentence suggests that includes a definite lack of omniscience. The rest is supposition, really, though probably more informed than our own.

[blazetheearth]

At least 2 AoL AS survived until after the Jenn began to build Rhuidean.

Those two at least are specifically not from before the Breaking.

Q: "Was the Aes Sedai who initiated the Pact of Rhuidean from the Age of Legends?".

RJ: "No. No, she was not from the Age of Legends."

I can't find anything ruling out anyone else, though. It would be kind of peculiar if they all just died off. But then, it's kind of peculiar that knowledge things like Traveling died out instead. Certainly there were AOL Aes Sedai alive during the Breaking, like the ones Rand saw in Paaran Disen, or the one who took angreal from the Aiel and said Ishamael was still around.

 

The information I think you are both referring to is from the Guide:

Given the exceedingly long lifespan of Aes Sedai during the Age of Legends, it would seem possible that at least some Aes Sedai who were alive at the beginning of the Breaking, even some who lived when the Bore was drilled, were still living when the Breaking ended. Over the centuries there has been considerable speculation, some rather wild, about this. However, the increasingly violent nature of the times, from the drilling of the Bore to the beginning of the War of the Shadow, the war itself, and finally the centuries of the Breaking, suggest that no Aes Sedai alive at the end of the Breaking had survived that entire span, or even a significant portion of it. The one possible exception may be the Aes Sedai who were involved in the building of Rhuidean, in the Aiel Waste. Tantalizing rumors claim that Aiel Wise Ones and clan chiefs may know something of this, but unless they can be induced to be more forthcoming—and so far, they are rigidly closemouthed—little is likely to be learned beyond the fact that Aes Sedai were involved.

It has to be taken into consideration, though, that Jordan had Teresa Patterson write the book as if she were an ACOS-contemporary historian, and as the last sentence suggests that includes a definite lack of omniscience. The rest is supposition, really, though probably more informed than our own.

 

Cool, thank you. I hadn't seen that quote by RJ before.

[Taura-Tierno]

I guess it might've been the guide I was thinking of ... maybe mixed with the fact that I've always thought they all died during the breaking. I've thought that the reason Talents were lost was because no AoL Aes Sedai were alive after to pass them on, and that those Talents were either so complex (real Healing) that those who had the Talent died before finding appropriate apprentices, or that they were too dangerous/useless (Traveling) that they were saved for "later" because there were more important things to be taught. And Traveling would've been dangerous because you wouldn't have known if you were opening a gateway to a good location, or if you'd end up being flooded by water or lava ... and useless because the world kept changing, so "learning" a location might not have been possible.

[Agitel]

Along with madmen tearing the world apart, there were still plenty of Forsaken running loose terrorizing the world, and Mesaana's children (raised in her special schools under her governance) were also a terror. They were dangerous times, and I doubt many, if any, Aes Sedai who had lived before the strike survived those years. Likely they themselves did try and teach and raise students, though of course they likely were not properly tested, and it was after things settled down that these women were able to create the White Tower, which is why so much knowledge was lost.

[blazetheearth]

I guess it might've been the guide I was thinking of ... maybe mixed with the fact that I've always thought they all died during the breaking. I've thought that the reason Talents were lost was because no AoL Aes Sedai were alive after to pass them on, and that those Talents were either so complex (real Healing) that those who had the Talent died before finding appropriate apprentices, or that they were too dangerous/useless (Traveling) that they were saved for "later" because there were more important things to be taught. And Traveling would've been dangerous because you wouldn't have known if you were opening a gateway to a good location, or if you'd end up being flooded by water or lava ... and useless because the world kept changing, so "learning" a location might not have been possible.

 

While Traveling has been described as a "lost Talent" by AS, we have seen through out the series that it really isn't a Talent at all. It was a lost weave, but not Talent. Talents seem to be referring to things like Foretelling, or Dreaming. Talents are not truly weaves, they are simply an ability that channelers are born with. Traveling is a weave. I could compare it to carpentry vs eidetic memory or lightning calculator. No one can give them selves eidetic memory, either you are born with a photographic memory or you are not just like Foretelling. Where as carpentry is a skill that anyone can learn. Some may have an almost innate ability at carpentry (or forming weaves) but that does not qualify the skill itself as something born with as opposed to something learned. AS in the books refer to Lost Talents, but the reality is that the Wheel or the Pattern decided that no channelers needed those 'Talents' during the time they were lost. Where as learned weaves like Traveling and the Making Of Heartstone are things that the knowledge of how to perform the action was lost. I know it's weird because the AS in the books misuse the term constantly.

 

The thing that has bugged me though is that Balefire was a weave that both sides feared to use during the War of Power, and therefore should have been one of the first weaves to be 'lost', but instead we see that Moraine managed to learn it somehow between the begining of TGH and the middle of TDR, but it took Egwene trying to figure out how to enter TAR in order to rediscover a weave that could have been used by either side during the War and should have lasted well into the Breaking at least. I never have figure out why knowledge of Balefire lasted long enough for Mor to learn it while a much more useful weave was lost.

 

True Healing like Nyn uses is another of those that is described as a Talent, but in truth it is a talent (a skill that one person may have an innate ability to perform better than others). After all, even Romanda can use the 'new Healing' but she does not have a spectacular skill with it like Nyn or Sharina.

 

Also, I agree with Agitel's comment, and would give you the AS in Seanchan as a good example of that. The AS there carved out their own petty fiefdoms from the lands and people there instead of forming an organization like the WT, but they managed to retain the ability to create ter'angreal until Luthair subjucated the entire nation and collared all of them. This we know because the a'dam was a brand new creation when it was presented to Luthair, not a relic that someone kept copying over and over. That is what they have become now but not what they were 1000 years ago, where the WT had lost the ability to even copy ter'angreal long before the Trolloc Wars, much less by the time Hawkwing was born.

[dovien]

I don't see why Travelling cannot fall into the category of things that anyone can learn but few can master.

[blazetheearth]

I don't see why Travelling cannot fall into the category of things that anyone can learn but few can master.

 

It does. That's why it is not properly a Talent. 'Talents' were supposed to be inborn gifts. Traveling is a learned thing. Sorry if my wording wasn't exactly clear on that.

 

Foretelling would be a Talent, but Traveling would not.

 

It's unfortunate that some of the characters in the books misuse the term 'Talent' when they are referring to 'Lost Weaves' like Traveling.

[Xader]

I don't see why Travelling cannot fall into the category of things that anyone can learn but few can master.

 

It does. That's why it is not properly a Talent. 'Talents' were supposed to be inborn gifts. Traveling is a learned thing. Sorry if my wording wasn't exactly clear on that.

 

Foretelling would be a Talent, but Traveling would not.

 

It's unfortunate that some of the characters in the books misuse the term 'Talent' when they are referring to 'Lost Weaves' like Traveling.

 

Right, Travelling can be seen as a talent, but not necessarily a Talent. A channeler can have an affinity for something and be good at it (talented), without necessarily being Gifted (Talent).

 

Though I'm sure there were those with a Talent for Travelling, like Berowin's Talent for shielding. She can create amazing shields using relatively little Power (she is fairly weak). Anyone with sufficient strength can do it, but those with a Talent do it very well.

[Taura-Tierno]

I guess it might've been the guide I was thinking of ... maybe mixed with the fact that I've always thought they all died during the breaking. I've thought that the reason Talents were lost was because no AoL Aes Sedai were alive after to pass them on, and that those Talents were either so complex (real Healing) that those who had the Talent died before finding appropriate apprentices, or that they were too dangerous/useless (Traveling) that they were saved for "later" because there were more important things to be taught. And Traveling would've been dangerous because you wouldn't have known if you were opening a gateway to a good location, or if you'd end up being flooded by water or lava ... and useless because the world kept changing, so "learning" a location might not have been possible.

 

While Traveling has been described as a "lost Talent" by AS, we have seen through out the series that it really isn't a Talent at all. It was a lost weave, but not Talent. Talents seem to be referring to things like Foretelling, or Dreaming. Talents are not truly weaves, they are simply an ability that channelers are born with. Traveling is a weave. I could compare it to carpentry vs eidetic memory or lightning calculator. No one can give them selves eidetic memory, either you are born with a photographic memory or you are not just like Foretelling. Where as carpentry is a skill that anyone can learn. Some may have an almost innate ability at carpentry (or forming weaves) but that does not qualify the skill itself as something born with as opposed to something learned. AS in the books refer to Lost Talents, but the reality is that the Wheel or the Pattern decided that no channelers needed those 'Talents' during the time they were lost. Where as learned weaves like Traveling and the Making Of Heartstone are things that the knowledge of how to perform the action was lost. I know it's weird because the AS in the books misuse the term constantly.

 

The thing that has bugged me though is that Balefire was a weave that both sides feared to use during the War of Power, and therefore should have been one of the first weaves to be 'lost', but instead we see that Moraine managed to learn it somehow between the begining of TGH and the middle of TDR, but it took Egwene trying to figure out how to enter TAR in order to rediscover a weave that could have been used by either side during the War and should have lasted well into the Breaking at least. I never have figure out why knowledge of Balefire lasted long enough for Mor to learn it while a much more useful weave was lost.

 

True Healing like Nyn uses is another of those that is described as a Talent, but in truth it is a talent (a skill that one person may have an innate ability to perform better than others). After all, even Romanda can use the 'new Healing' but she does not have a spectacular skill with it like Nyn or Sharina.

 

Also, I agree with Agitel's comment, and would give you the AS in Seanchan as a good example of that. The AS there carved out their own petty fiefdoms from the lands and people there instead of forming an organization like the WT, but they managed to retain the ability to create ter'angreal until Luthair subjucated the entire nation and collared all of them. This we know because the a'dam was a brand new creation when it was presented to Luthair, not a relic that someone kept copying over and over. That is what they have become now but not what they were 1000 years ago, where the WT had lost the ability to even copy ter'angreal long before the Trolloc Wars, much less by the time Hawkwing was born.

 

All weave-related things are Talents. It says so in the books, in the glossary, and RJ has even said so himself. This includes Traveling and Healing.

 

Week 7 Question: What was the most respected Talent in the Age of Legends? Why?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Healing was probably the most respected single Talent in the Age of Legends' date=' in part because it eased suffering (disease had been all been eradicated, but injuries still occurred) and in part because high levels of ability in that Talent were much more rare than high levels in most other Talents.[/quote']

 

You can have different abilities in a Talent, it's not just something you possess. An Aes Sedai can use such a Talent without having any amazing skill in it. She can, in fact, be terrible at it. Semirhage is mentioned to be lousy at manipulating the weather, which would mean that she's lousy at Cloud Dancing, which is a major Talent.

 

I do agree that there is a distinction between "inherent" Talents and weave-related Talents, though. But they're still Talents.

[Exy]

Along with madmen tearing the world apart, there were still plenty of Forsaken running loose terrorizing the world, and Mesaana's children (raised in her special schools under her governance) were also a terror. They were dangerous times, and I doubt many, if any, Aes Sedai who had lived before the strike survived those years. Likely they themselves did try and teach and raise students, though of course they likely were not properly tested, and it was after things settled down that these women were able to create the White Tower, which is why so much knowledge was lost.

This. I can't see any explanation for losing things as useful as Traveling or Age of Legends-style Healing unless no Aes Sedai survived. The Aes Sedai would have been in particular danger, since they were the only people who could deal with male channelers, and probably were also out in the world trying to Heal people and that sort of thing.

 

So yeah, my conclusion is that what knowledge survived was the result of lots of ad hoc training for new female channelers, done by Aes Sedai at the beginning of the Breaking and then transmitted on by several generations of half-trained female channelers afterwards.

 

 

True Healing like Nyn uses is another of those that is described as a Talent' date=' but in truth it is a talent (a skill that one person may have an innate ability to perform better than others). After all, even Romanda can use the 'new Healing' but she does not have a spectacular skill with it like Nyn or Sharina.[/quote']

I think this style of Healing qualifies as a Talent (as does the other one) at least as far as the word is used by Aes Sedai. There's some talents (Foretelling, seeing ta'veren, etc.) that you either have or don't have, but it appears that most of the time the word is used in reference to various affinities that channelers have. And Healing seems to be particularly based on a person's innate Talent for it, rather than strength, since strong channelers like Sheriam and Egwene have been mentioned as not being able to Heal anything beyond cuts and scrapes. By contrast, Siuan, who appears to have been above average at Healing, retains her ability at it even after losing most of her strength in the Power.

 

A lot of the regular weaves that anyone can learn still seem to be more effective for certain people, and that sort of thing is consistently called a Talent. Beyond Healing, it seems like some people have more or less ability with controlling weather (although, of course, the Sea Folk have refined that far more than the Aes Sedai ever did.) And there's Berowyn, the relatively weak kinswoman who nonetheless could effortlessly hold a shield on Egwene and Nynaeve. Seemingly most or all Aes Sedai can create cuendillar, but some were much better at it than others. Verin thinks to her self at one point how she's better at Delving than anyone else in the Tower.

[Finnssss22]

Yeah, a lot of confusion on exactly what a talent is.

 

Nynaeve and Damer Flinn are definitely extra talented with delving and healing.

Egwene can find metals in the ground.

The Kinswoman with the super shield.

Androl being able to make ridiculously large gateway's despite being very weak in the power.

Aviendha's ability to see weave residue's.

Elayne's ability to make Ter'angreal.

As mentioned, seems Cuendillar can be made by anyone but I also thought it required strength in fire and earth to do so which is rare among women.

Fager Neald's ability to create power wrought weapons.

Foretelling and seeing Ta'veren are obvious extra talents.

 

I guess according to RJ, there's a difference between making a weave and copying one but there are definitely special talents as well.