Blood Knives vs. Fades vs. Gawyn

[johthohar]

Regarding the whole thing about Lan beating Gawyn in under a minute, I think the "Any Given Sunday" concept applies here. Riatin is close to the same skill level as Rand. Lan > Rand > Gawyn. Lan whoops Riatin in no time flat. Doesn't mean Lan whoops Gawyn in no time flat as well necessarily. "Any Given Sunday" is, for those of you who don't watch football, the theory that any team, no matter how good or bad, can beat any other team on any given day. It just depends on who plays better that day as well as other factors like how well rested they are, what the weather is like, playing at home or away, etc. So, it could be that nine times out of ten, Lan beats Riatin but it is pretty evenly matched. But this particular time was the "Any Given Sunday" that Lan lays some total pwnage on Riatin with little/no effort. It makes sense story-wise for this to happen too, because the fight being fast was necessary to the narrative. You could also argue that, since we didn't actually see the fight between the two, it was evenly matched but over quickly because they both knew they had little time and went for the high risk/reward moves or stances or whatever and Lan just came out on top. I'm not saying Lan wouldn't put a beat down on Gawyn, I don't have an opinion either way aside from Lan beats him 90% of the time. But we really can't say for sure that Lan beats him in under a minute.

 

Regarding the Mat vs. Lan fight, I don't think Mat's luck factors in either way. For one thing, and I've argued this exhaustively on another thread, Mat doesn't consciously control his luck. He understands it and therefore can use it to an extent, but he can't actually control how the dice fall. When fighting he is actively trying to beat another person. Maybe if he closed his eyes and randomly twirled his little bladed baton his luck would factor in. But otherwise its all about skill. Another thing is that we don't have any example of his opponent in a fight tripping on a rock and falling on their sword/spear/arrow. Not any that I can remember at least. His ta'veren nature can affect other people, making them say or do things they normally wouldn't. But I think his luck only has a direct affect on him. Is there an example of his luck affecting another person directly? In a fight or otherwise? I can't think of any.

[moratcorlm]

Another thing is that we don't have any example of his opponent in a fight tripping on a rock and falling on their sword/spear/arrow. Not any that I can remember at least. His ta'veren nature can affect other people, making them say or do things they normally wouldn't. But I think his luck only has a direct affect on him. Is there an example of his luck affecting another person directly? In a fight or otherwise? I can't think of any.

There are several.

“Time to toss the dice,” he said. He thought the other man looked confused for an instant, but an instant was all he had. With a heave of his legs, Mat flipped them both off into the empty air.

 

For a stretched-out moment he seemed to have no weight. Air whistled past his ears and ruffled his hair. He thought he heard the other man scream, or start to. The impact knocked all the air out of his lungs and made silver-black flecks dance across his blurring vision.

 

When he could breathe again—and see—he realized he was lying on top of the man who had attacked him, his fall cushioned by the other’s body. “Luck,” he whispered. Slowly he climbed to his feet, cursing the bruise the quarterstaff had put across his ribs.

 

He expected the other man to be dead—not many could survive a thirty-foot fall to cobblestones with another’s weight on top of him—but what he had not expected was to see the fellow’s dagger driven to the hilt into his own heart. Such an ordinary-looking man to have tried to kill him. Mat did not think he would even have noticed him in a crowded room.

 

“You had bad luck, fellow,” he told the corpse shakily.

Mat shoved the table at him, overturning it, and grabbed for his quarterstaff. He had forgotten how big Comar was. The bearded man pushed the table right back at him. Mat fell over with his chair, holding a bare grasp on his staff, as Comar heaved the table out of the way and stabbed at him. Mat threw his feet against the man’s middle to stop his rush, swung the staff awkwardly, just enough to deflect the sword. But the blow knocked the staff from his fingers, and he found himself gripping Comar’s wrist, instead, with the man’s blade a hand from his face. With a grunt he rolled backwards, heaving as hard as he could with his legs. Comar’s eyes widened as he sailed over Mat to crash onto a table, face up. Mat scrambled for his staff, but when he had it, Comar had not moved.

 

The big man lay with his hips and legs sprawled across the top of the table, the rest of him hanging down with his head on the floor. The men who had been sitting at the table were on their feet a safe distance away, wringing their hands and eyeing each other nervously. A low, worried buzz filled the common room, not the noise Mat expected.

 

Comar’s sword lay within easy reach of his hand. But he did not move. He stared at Mat, though, as Mat kicked the sword away and went to one knee beside him. Light! I think his back is broken! “I told you you should have gone, Comar. Your luck is all used up.”

“Sandar, you find that—” he began, swinging his staff up onto his shoulder, and cut off when it thudded into something.

 

Spinning, he found himself facing another half-dressed High Lord, this one with his sword on the floor, his knees buckling, and both hands to his head where Mat’s staff had split his scalp. Hastily, Mat poked him hard in the stomach with the butt of the staff to bring his hands down, then gave him another thump on the head to put him down in a heap on top of his sword.

 

“Luck, Sandar,” he muttered. “You cannot beat bloody luck. Now, why don’t you find this bloody private way the High Lords take down to the cells?” Sandar had insisted there was such a stairway, and using it would avoid having to run through most of the Stone. Mat did not think he liked men so eager to watch people put to the question that they wanted a quick route to the prisoners from their apartments.

 

“Just be glad you were so lucky,” Sandar said unsteadily, “or this one would have killed us both before we saw him.

The slim-bladed knife came up swiftly, all her remaining strength behind it, the point driving the dangling foxhead against his chest. The silver medallion should not have stopped a blade, but the angle was just that much wrong, and some hidden flaw in the steel snapped the blade off right at the hilt just as he caught her hand. “You have the Great Lord’s own luck.”

And then there's the battles with the Shaido in Cairhien where the Band comes together. Others too, probably.

[johthohar]

There are several.

 

bunch of examples

 

Consider me set straight. It is relatively few though, considering the number of fights he's been in.

 

And then there's the battles with the Shaido in Cairhien where the Band comes together. Others too, probably.

 

This isn't really luck in a fight. He was lucky to have a group of soldiers come together when he needed them. His luck affects the actual combat here only indirectly. But you already disproved my theory with the previous examples anyway. I'm sure I'll remember more now that I'm thinking about it. Even without his luck though, Mat wins I think more times than he loses against Lan.

[Mulk]

When you're at the level that Lan, Rand, Gawyn and the rest are at, I honestly don't think it matters and I do think the any given day applies. Rand shouldn't have beaten Turak on the face of it; he stayed alive long enough to take him by surprise. Galad shouldn't have beaten Valda; he wasn't superior at moving the blade, but he was a superior strategist and planned out how to surprise Valda and take advantage of the fact that he liked to play with his victims. I do think that Valda, if he had tried to win early instead of going for humiliation, probably would have won the fight.

 

Lan's not nearly as susceptible to underestimating someone as Valda or Turak, at least I don't think so. That doesn't change the fact that a sword can't be moved as quickly as a quarterstaff, and the staff's greater reach gives an advantage all its own if the owner knows how to use it. I think a sword user has to be better than a staff user to fight on even ground, as it were. I mean, it's not long timeline-wise after Mat's bout with Galad and Gawyn that Gawyn kills Hammar and Coulin. So Gawyn is already really good, and Galad is even better at this point. We know Mat's really good, too, though he claims his dad and Tam are both better than he is. He still wins the fight outright without any slips or anything else to aid him. Of course, the wonder half-brothers did underestimate him.

 

I would say that there is luck in a fight though. A man slips on a puddle of water he didn't see (amazing how invisible it can be on tile); someone sneezes at an inopportune moment; given Mat's luck, he could be fighting the <insert evil dude of awesome here> and about to die, and then a blackfly will bite his opponent in a soft spot or a bird will die overhead and land on the opponent's head, causing attention to waver and allowing Mat to win the day. Being very good and aware of your surroundings helps minimize that, but it never fully removes random odd occurrences.

 

In straight up sparring with nothing at stake (since stakes seem to activate Mat's luck) I'd love to see that fight. I -think- Lan would win because of his much greater experience at hand to hand fighting but I could be wrong. Mat's memories might neutralize that.

[johthohar]

I'd like to see a straight up MMA style fight between Rand and Mat or Lan with no weapons. I always thought it was a pretty awesome piece of badassery that Rand fought and killed a skilled warder who had a sword with no weapons. I really wish that scene had been on screen though instead of described later from one of the Sister's POV. I think because of his training in the hand fighting technique with the Aiel that he was probably superior to both of them pre-tGS. But without his left hand it would be an interesting match up.

[Express]

Lan, Galad, Gawyn, in 'blade master' order but wouldn't Tam be the best as a fighter? Mat did say Tam was better with the staff and he did kill a man to earn the heron marked sword so he's also a blade master. Maybe 'fighter' is the wrong word???

[capuga]

Lan, Galad, Gawyn, in 'blade master' order but wouldn't Tam be the best as a fighter? Mat did say Tam was better with the staff and he did kill a man to earn the heron marked sword so he's also a blade master. Maybe 'fighter' is the wrong word???

 

Tam's also the best shot with a bow. He's just an all around badass.

[Jon Paul]

Second Captain Tam al'Thor versus Lord Anomander Rake?

 

My money is on Tam.

[Suttree]

Second Captain Tam al'Thor versus Lord Anomander Rake?

 

My money is on Tam.

 

I'll take that wager and your money.

 

Lord of Moon's Spawn, Anomandaris Dragnipurake, Son of Darkness, Knight of High House Dark, Mane of Chaos, The Rake, Blacksword. Anyone with that many names can kick some serious ass ;)

[Jon Paul]

I'll take that wager and your money.

 

Lord of Moon's Spawn, Anomandaris Dragnipurake, Son of Darkness, Knight of High House Dark, Mane of Chaos, The Rake, Blacksword. Anyone with that many names can kick some serious ass ;)

 

Okay, okay, maybe choosing Rake was aiming a little too high ! A Second-Captain doesn't really rank with a god. In fact Tam should be noted as a First-Captain now.

 

A much better fight would have to be between First-Captain Tam al'Thor versus Sergeant Whiskeyjack.

[akira.taylor]

I'll take that wager and your money.

 

Lord of Moon's Spawn, Anomandaris Dragnipurake, Son of Darkness, Knight of High House Dark, Mane of Chaos, The Rake, Blacksword. Anyone with that many names can kick some serious ass ;)

 

Okay, okay, maybe choosing Rake was aiming a little too high ! A Second-Captain doesn't really rank with a god. In fact Tam should be noted as a First-Captain now.

 

A much better fight would have to be between First-Captain Tam al'Thor versus Sergeant Whiskeyjack.

 

What in the world are you two talking about? I get the impression you are both referencing something I'm unfamiliar with, but I can't be certain.

[johthohar]

What in the world are you two talking about? I get the impression you are both referencing something I'm unfamiliar with, but I can't be certain.

 

Fantasy series by a Canadian author called "Malazan Book of the Fallen".

 

Google is awesome

[RedRaider]

Lan is by far the best swordsman in the series followed closely by Rand back when he could still clap. Then its Galad. Why is it in this order?

 

The author said it is.

 

Now hears a question for you. Who would win in a fight. Lan or Matt

 

i know who i'd put my money on.

 

Minus his luck, Mat would get his rear end handed to him by Lan. While Mat is right up there with the elite warriors in terms of abilities with said weapon...Lan is on a league of his own.

 

With Mat's luck, Lan probably trips and falls on his own sword.

Did Mat have good luck before he came into contact with the dagger from SL? I've always wondered if his luck and fighting ability came from the dagger. Remember when he was beating Gawyn and Galad to death and nearly used a killing blow on Galad? He barely stopped himself. I just do not think his old Da taught him so well that he bested what would become two blademasters with a stave. I think that his ability to fight so effectively, not plan tactically, but his ability to fight came from the dagger as a lingering side effect.

[capuga]

Lan is by far the best swordsman in the series followed closely by Rand back when he could still clap. Then its Galad. Why is it in this order?

 

The author said it is.

 

Now hears a question for you. Who would win in a fight. Lan or Matt

 

i know who i'd put my money on.

 

Minus his luck, Mat would get his rear end handed to him by Lan. While Mat is right up there with the elite warriors in terms of abilities with said weapon...Lan is on a league of his own.

 

With Mat's luck, Lan probably trips and falls on his own sword.

Did Mat have good luck before he came into contact with the dagger from SL? I've always wondered if his luck and fighting ability came from the dagger. Remember when he was beating Gawyn and Galad to death and nearly used a killing blow on Galad? He barely stopped himself. I just do not think his old Da taught him so well that he bested what would become two blademasters with a stave. I think that his ability to fight so effectively, not plan tactically, but his ability to fight came from the dagger as a lingering side effect.

 

Its unlikely that Mat's fighting ability came from the dagger. The explanation that Mat's dad taught him the quarterstaff and that a village of farmers would practice and hold quarterstaff competitions makes more sense. Plus Mat is athletic and has very quick reflexes, so he would quickly learn a weapon like the quarterstaff.

 

As to your question about Mat's luck and the SL dagger - I have seen some pretty convincing arguments that the two are tied together. You certainly don't see a hint of Mat's supernatural luck until after he has (and is parted from) the dagger.

[johthohar]

As to your question about Mat's luck and the SL dagger - I have seen some pretty convincing arguments that the two are tied together. You certainly don't see a hint of Mat's supernatural luck until after he has (and is parted from) the dagger.

 

This is true. But Rand's channeling ability and Perrin's wolf brotherness surface around the same time without similar stimuli. I think it's more likely a latent ability linked to his ta'veren nature (or possibly something unique like Perrin's being a wolfbrother) and was triggered by his coming of age and/or the great stress caused by the recent events at that time.

[Mulk]

I recall a PoV from Mat where he thinks that he has always been lucky, though some things he'd been sure he would get away with he hadn't. I'd argue he's always been a touch lucky, and as johthothar says, that the greater and more incredible occurrences of it grew as he came of age/needed it.

 

The dagger was fully imbued with the hate of Shadar Logoth. We've seen nothing from Fain's PoV that indicates he is luckier than anyone else in things of chance - he can just do things he doesn't understand early on. Whatever power is in it has nothing to do with random chance, imo.

 

edit for grammar

[gary0044187]

 

Did Mat have good luck before he came into contact with the dagger from SL? I've always wondered if his luck and fighting ability came from the dagger. Remember when he was beating Gawyn and Galad to death and nearly used a killing blow on Galad? He barely stopped himself. I just do not think his old Da taught him so well that he bested what would become two blademasters with a stave. I think that his ability to fight so effectively, not plan tactically, but his ability to fight came from the dagger as a lingering side effect.

Mark Grayson already answered you directly but I wanted to point something out too. Leaving the TR seems to be what set these three boys off so to speak. It is very possible strange things had been happening before (fain figured out that they were targets for the raid the year before, wolves were strangely close to perrin, it is possible rand was already channeling, and mat says he was lucky) but remember that in the chapter when they charge at the trollocs, Mat slipped out some old tongue. This is in line with his memory of the fall of Manetheren that we read when he was having his connection with the dagger severed. I believe this is some measure of his nature, not just what the 'finns did to him. They just made it stronger. I believe by the time he is in TV dualing Gawyn and Galad he is already benefiting from those memories, at least subconsciously. Their teacher of course brushed it off, but it was actually a definite indicator of the BA he was growing to be. I know my assessment of his "memories" falls into theory, but it makes sense to me.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I would guess Lan based on experience. But it's been shown that both Galad and Gawyn have very high skill. Rand, the last time we saw, was still not on par with Lan and was bested by another blade master (can't remember name) in the rebels' camp just before the bubble of evil struck. Or at least he was about to be bested by all appearances. I have to disagree with Jon Paul, however, about Galad being better than Gawyn. I think it is said earlier in the series that Galad is the better swordsman but isn't this from Gawyn's POV? And therefore colored by his idolatry of his half-brother. Not to mention the fact that Gawyn defeated one (maybe two?) blademaster during the White Tower coup who had the added benefit of being a warder. Then he killed three bloodknives still without having the benefit of the warder bond himself. I would have to say that I think Gawyn would lay some serious pwnage on Galad at this point.

 

Another thought, LTT was a blade master in the AoL if I'm not mistaken. Now that Rand has fully integrated his memories it could be possible that he is the blade master with the most badassery in the land.

 

 

Galad beat Valda who was far superior to any opponent Gawyn ever faced. Gawyn himself considers Galad superior to himself. Not to mention that Gawyn is more flawed than Galad. Something that will always hold Gawyn back and make him inferior is his immaturity and lack of control over his emotions. Provoke Gawyn enough and he will trip himself up.

 

Finally. Brandon himself stated that Galad is the better blademaster.

[johthohar]

I would guess Lan based on experience. But it's been shown that both Galad and Gawyn have very high skill. Rand, the last time we saw, was still not on par with Lan and was bested by another blade master (can't remember name) in the rebels' camp just before the bubble of evil struck. Or at least he was about to be bested by all appearances. I have to disagree with Jon Paul, however, about Galad being better than Gawyn. I think it is said earlier in the series that Galad is the better swordsman but isn't this from Gawyn's POV? And therefore colored by his idolatry of his half-brother. Not to mention the fact that Gawyn defeated one (maybe two?) blademaster during the White Tower coup who had the added benefit of being a warder. Then he killed three bloodknives still without having the benefit of the warder bond himself. I would have to say that I think Gawyn would lay some serious pwnage on Galad at this point.

 

Another thought, LTT was a blade master in the AoL if I'm not mistaken. Now that Rand has fully integrated his memories it could be possible that he is the blade master with the most badassery in the land.

 

 

Galad beat Valda who was far superior to any opponent Gawyn ever faced. Gawyn himself considers Galad superior to himself. Not to mention that Gawyn is more flawed than Galad. Something that will always hold Gawyn back and make him inferior is his immaturity and lack of control over his emotions. Provoke Gawyn enough and he will trip himself up.

 

Finally. Brandon himself stated that Galad is the better blademaster.

 

This has already been pointed out several times since I made that post. You're beating a dead horse.

[Entreri]

Lan is by far the best swordsman in the series followed closely by Rand back when he could still clap. Then its Galad. Why is it in this order?

 

The author said it is.

 

Now hears a question for you. Who would win in a fight. Lan or Matt

 

i know who i'd put my money on.

 

Minus his luck, Mat would get his rear end handed to him by Lan. While Mat is right up there with the elite warriors in terms of abilities with said weapon...Lan is on a league of his own.

 

With Mat's luck, Lan probably trips and falls on his own sword.

 

When Hammar asks the Warder candidates, "Who is the greatest blademaster of all time?" they don't shout "Lan Mandragoran."

 

And Jearom was defeated by a farmer with a quarterstaff.

 

So there is really no reason at all to think that Mat couldn't defeat Lan in single combat. Theyy use entirely different weapons. Wil al'Seen could probably defeat Lan also, if they started the fight standing at least 30 feet apart.

 

Not yet anyway.

 

I wonder if Jearom being defeated by a farmer is real or a folk tale meant as a warning. Either way, this could be when Jearom was young and inexperienced. If Jearom was reborn now, it would have to be as Lan, since it cannot be Gawyn.

 

It is highly unlikely that Mat could defeat Lan in single combat unless his luck factors in greatly, considering that Lan is considerably better than even the DR.

[moratcorlm]

It is highly unlikely that Mat could defeat Lan in single combat unless his luck factors in greatly, considering that Lan is considerably better than even the DR.

Galad and Gawyn are considerably better swordsmen than Mat as well. But Mat fights with a weapon superior to the sword. Lan's a better swordsman than Birgitte, too, but that wouldn't save his life from fifty paces.

[randsc]

It is highly unlikely that Mat could defeat Lan in single combat unless his luck factors in greatly, considering that Lan is considerably better than even the DR.

Galad and Gawyn are considerably better swordsmen than Mat as well. But Mat fights with a weapon superior to the sword. Lan's a better swordsman than Birgitte, too, but that wouldn't save his life from fifty paces.

 

 

Precisely.

 

You know, I could take Lan down myself, in seconds. With my .40 Sig.

[randsc]

By the way, does anybody know whether or not it is true, in the real world, that a master of the quarterstaff could easily defeat a master of the sword? Bows I know about; staves and swords not so much.

 

I know that in the Middle Ages, no one would have carried an axe, hammer, or mace who could afford to or was not prohibited from carrying a sword. But I don't have any idea about a quarterstaff.

[Suttree]

Lan is by far the best swordsman in the series followed closely by Rand back when he could still clap. Then its Galad. Why is it in this order?

 

The author said it is.

 

Now hears a question for you. Who would win in a fight. Lan or Matt

 

i know who i'd put my money on.

 

Minus his luck, Mat would get his rear end handed to him by Lan. While Mat is right up there with the elite warriors in terms of abilities with said weapon...Lan is on a league of his own.

 

With Mat's luck, Lan probably trips and falls on his own sword.

 

When Hammar asks the Warder candidates, "Who is the greatest blademaster of all time?" they don't shout "Lan Mandragoran."

 

And Jearom was defeated by a farmer with a quarterstaff.

 

So there is really no reason at all to think that Mat couldn't defeat Lan in single combat. Theyy use entirely different weapons. Wil al'Seen could probably defeat Lan also, if they started the fight standing at least 30 feet apart.

 

Not yet anyway.

 

I wonder if Jearom being defeated by a farmer is real or a folk tale meant as a warning. Either way, this could be when Jearom was young and inexperienced. If Jearom was reborn now, it would have to be as Lan, since it cannot be Gawyn.

 

It is highly unlikely that Mat could defeat Lan in single combat unless his luck factors in greatly, considering that Lan is considerably better than even the DR.

 

Think you are missing the point. In a one on one duel type situation the quarterstaff is a superior weapon to the sword. RJ collected weaponry and was very aware of their strengths, it is based in historical fact. When Mat beats Gawyn and Galad it brought to mind the story of English Sailor Richard Peeke who beat three Spanish swordsman wielding rapiers and daggers.

[Yates_]

In the Dragon Reborn, we learned that LTT had been one of the guys who turned Swordplay from a tame form of excercise into the deadly artform it is today. Now that Rand Sedai has all of LTTs memories, it makes sense that he is the best, especially with his Aiel martial arts added in. I think we will get a duel in AMOL where he essentially takes both of the Bros apart, and makes it look easy, with only 1 hand.

 

At least, I sure hope so. That would be one step down from porn.