The White Tower - Seanchan Attack

[Taura-Tierno]

But there is no way the Aes Sedai will consider bring captured safe, in any way. That's why they'll use it as a weapon. By your reasoning, an aes Sedai couldn't use it as a weapon unless someone is literally swinging a sword at them.

 

Consider Dumai's wells. The Aes Sedai who were fighting there could most certainly have used weaves of air instead of fireballs in 95% of the time, but they didn't. Why? The Oath isn't supposed to stop the use if the OP as a weapon in such circumstances. It's supposed to stop them from murdering innocents, hurting those who disagree with them and to prevent them from having a reign of terror. Being in a battle is a life-threatening situation, so it works. Even if the enemy claims to mean you no harm, if you really believe they're lying.

[moratcorlm]

But there is no way the Aes Sedai will consider bring captured safe, in any way.

Why not? Even if they, like Egwene, believe it to be worse than death, it is not death. And the more they learn about the Seanchan, the more they realize that they do not have death in store for them if it can be helped. Damane are, as Egeanin says, too valuable to execute.

By your reasoning, an aes Sedai couldn't use it as a weapon unless someone is literally swinging a sword at them.

Well, I think running at them with a sword is close enough, but pretty much. I think that's adequately borne out throughout the series.

Consider Dumai's wells. The Aes Sedai who were fighting there could most certainly have used weaves of air instead of fireballs in 95% of the time, but they didn't. Why? The Oath isn't supposed to stop the use if the OP as a weapon in such circumstances. It's supposed to stop them from murdering innocents, hurting those who disagree with them and to prevent them from having a reign of terror. Being in a battle is a life-threatening situation, so it works.

Indeed, but the Seanchan invasion of the Tower will probably not be like Dumai's Wells, a ready-made battle they can just throw themselves into, against an enemy like the Shaido that's more than happy to attack them. The Seanchan will be careful to make no fatally threatening moves, to use no lethal weaves, and simply attempt to subdue and leash them. And even if the sisters order the Tower Guard to create such a battle, we've seen that channelers are capable of great precision with their weaves as well as indiscriminate destruction. They could watch all 100,000 men be cut down and still be powerless to intervene. What they'll have to do is deliberately try to commit suicide against an enemy that will be prepared for such a gambit and deliberately avoiding any violence against them. That, or send in the Warders to die on their behalf.

Even if the enemy claims to mean you no harm, if you really believe they're lying.

There is that. But belief is a tricky thing. Egwene, Teslyn, Edesina, Joline, Bethamin, Seta, the captured damane... all will have said that in a full-scale invasion rather than a raid there's no death awaiting an Aes Sedai who doesn't commit suicide.

 

If a man came up to an Aes Sedai and honestly said "I'm going to rape you, but I will not kill you", she ordinarily would bind him with Air. But if he could channel, and severed every one of her nonviolent weaves (without shielding her), she would eventually have no defense; she could not then balefire him. This situation is no different. If the sul'dam play their cards right, the Aes Sedai will find it very hard to resist. They will have to run.

[Dysaster]

it is all a matter of Belief.

 

if the Aes Sedai Believes she is in danger of her life, the restraints are off.

 

if an Aes Sedai Believes her fellow Aes Sedai sisters are in danger of their life...the restraints are off.

 

the Seanchan invasion- whatever occurs, due to the raid,an AS would Believe that their life was in danger thus allow full offensive channeling.

 

which imo is not needed, just the whip of air to unlock the collars/bracelets-which no sul'dam knows about (they all were either killed or captured) air whip, collar off, shielded damane...rinse, repeat.

[moratcorlm]

It wouldn't take long before the damane started severing those air whips. And that's if Egwene has actually been spreading knowledge of the exact procedure involved in unclasping the rather complicated lock, which frankly I'm kind of leery about. And in any case this part is incorrect:

the Seanchan invasion- whatever occurs, due to the raid,an AS would Believe that their life was in danger thus allow full offensive channeling.

The danger must be immediate, and it must be specific:

I cannot use it for revenge. The Oaths do not permit it. The Children are very nearly as vile as men can be, short of Darkfriends, but they are not Darkfriends, and for that reason they are safe from the Power except in self-defense. Stretch that as far as we can, it will only stretch so far.

[wvlr2]

It wouldn't take long before the damane started severing those air whips. And that's if Egwene has actually been spreading knowledge of the exact procedure involved in unclasping the rather complicated lock, which frankly I'm kind of leery about. And in any case this part is incorrect:

the Seanchan invasion- whatever occurs, due to the raid,an AS would Believe that their life was in danger thus allow full offensive channeling.

The danger must be immediate, and it must be specific:

I cannot use it for revenge. The Oaths do not permit it. The Children are very nearly as vile as men can be, short of Darkfriends, but they are not Darkfriends, and for that reason they are safe from the Power except in self-defense. Stretch that as far as we can, it will only stretch so far.

Wrong, No damane could block an "air whip" powered by a circle or an Angeral.

 

The moment any invasion starts - it creates an immediate danger. They are one and the same.

[moratcorlm]

Wrong, No damane could block an "air whip" powered by a circle or an Angeral.

The one of which takes planning and coordination, and the other takes access to angreal. As of TGS46, Egwene has plans to keep the location of angreal secret from the sisters at large, and it's unclear whether or not they're still in the basement levels through which the Seanchan will be entering. With a sa'angreal, a damane could prevent even a full circle from unlocking her.

The moment any invasion starts - it creates an immediate danger.

Not of death, no. This is wishful thinking.

[Suttree]

Wrong, No damane could block an "air whip" powered by a circle or an Angeral.

The one of which takes planning and coordination, and the other takes access to angreal. As of TGS46, Egwene has plans to keep the location of angreal secret from the sisters at large, and it's unclear whether or not they're still in the basement levels through which the Seanchan will be entering. With a sa'angreal, a damane could prevent even a full circle from unlocking her.

The moment any invasion starts - it creates an immediate danger.

Not of death, no. This is wishful thinking.

 

No I believe the minute they feel threatened it is fine for the AS to respond. It is all perception remember. There is no way for an AS to be 100% certain that the Damane are only trying to seize them.

[Taura-Tierno]

Your quote refers to Alanna talking about her warder, yes? She cannot use it for revenge, but if the whitecloaks attacked it would have been self defense.

 

And i still believe that the aes Sedai about to be raped would have been able to use the OP as a weapon. I'd consider that self-defense and fighting for my life.

 

Teslyn and Joline used it as a weapon without being directly threatened, just when the enemy was close enough. and they were not in direct mortal danger.

 

And there is still no guarantee, for the aes Sedai, to BELIEVE that the damane would not kill them if they resist. As I said; better that they die than are allowed to roam free. The Aes Sedai aren't damane yet.

 

And the oath does not say "to prevent my death". If it had, you might've had a stronger argument. It speaks if life, which has a wider definition. I were to be brought into a slavery with almost mo possibility of escape and endure long-term torture, I'd consider it the end of my life.

[moratcorlm]

And the oath does not say "to prevent my death". If it had, you might've had a stronger argument. It speaks if life, which has a wider definition. I were to be brought into a slavery with almost mo possibility of escape and endure long-term torture, I'd consider it the end of my life.

A very Aes Sedai answer. You win.

[Taura-Tierno]

Haha. :)

 

I was going to post a quote from the scene I was referring to with Mat, Joline and Teslyn, but don't have KoD here. So I'll post an excerpt from the summary at tarvalon.net's library which explains it.

 

http://library.tarvalon.net/index.php?title=Knife_of_Dreams:_Chapter_37

The two former sul'dam want to try to help, but are subdued by the Aes Sedai. As arrows keep flying and coming closer to Mat and the Aes Sedai, the men regroup and the slings came out. Then Mat feels the arrows close in on him and one rips each sleeve and one rips the shoulder of his coat. Finally the Aes Sedai feel threatened enough to respond and begin hurling fireballs at the advancing army.

 

So. They could've simply used shields of Air to block the arrows - instead they started throwing fireballs. That's my main evidence from the books, aside from my opinion on how the Oaths work.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

Your quote refers to Alanna talking about her warder, yes? She cannot use it for revenge, but if the whitecloaks attacked it would have been self defense.

 

And i still believe that the aes Sedai about to be raped would have been able to use the OP as a weapon. I'd consider that self-defense and fighting for my life.

 

Teslyn and Joline used it as a weapon without being directly threatened, just when the enemy was close enough. and they were not in direct mortal danger.

 

And there is still no guarantee, for the aes Sedai, to BELIEVE that the damane would not kill them if they resist. As I said; better that they die than are allowed to roam free. The Aes Sedai aren't damane yet.

 

And the oath does not say "to prevent my death". If it had, you might've had a stronger argument. It speaks if life, which has a wider definition. I were to be brought into a slavery with almost mo possibility of escape and endure long-term torture, I'd consider it the end of my life.

 

And i still believe that the aes Sedai about to be raped would have been able to use the OP as a weapon. I'd consider that self-defense and fighting for my life.

 

Being raped itself isn't life threatening (Traumatizing, terrifying and extremely wrong, yes.), without actually knowing the person is going to (Or threatening to) end her life , she can't use the power as a weapon..

 

 

Teslyn and Joline used it as a weapon without being directly threatened, just when the enemy was close enough. and they were not in direct mortal danger.

 

Had arrows been shot near Teslyn or Joline, their lives would be threatened.

 

 

And there is still no guarantee, for the aes Sedai, to BELIEVE that the damane would not kill them if they resist. As I said; better that they die than are allowed to roam free. The Aes Sedai aren't damane yet.

 

That's like saying the Aes Sedai are allowed to kill White Cloaks because they BELIEVE they might kill them if they walk away from them..

 

 

And the oath does not say "to prevent my death". If it had, you might've had a stronger argument. It speaks if life, which has a wider definition. I were to be brought into a slavery with almost mo possibility of escape and endure long-term torture, I'd consider it the end of my life.

 

Life, "Definition of LIFE

 

1

a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body

b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings

c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

2

a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual

b : one or more aspects of the process of living <sex life of the frog>"

 

"Or in the last extreme of defending my life"

The a'dam obviously doesn't threaten her life, it threatens their freedom.

There's quite a bit of difference between life and freedom.. There's also quite a difference between torture and punishment (The Damane only get disciplined when they break the rules, orders or back talk.. At least, that we've seen?)

[capuga]

That's like saying the Aes Sedai are allowed to kill White Cloaks because they BELIEVE they might kill them if they walk away from them.

 

This is not a very good example. Obviously, they could not attack Whitecloaks just because the Children hate them and want them dead. If the Whitecloaks were actually threatening them and attacking them it would be a different story. They also feel more confident that they can handle the Whitecloaks non-lethally because the WCs cannot use the power like the damane. If you knew that recently the Seanchan assaulted the WT and killed several Aes Sedai and then suddenly they are assaulting the WT again, you would likely be afraid for your life.

 

And the oath does not say "to prevent my death". If it had, you might've had a stronger argument. It speaks if life, which has a wider definition. I were to be brought into a slavery with almost mo possibility of escape and endure long-term torture, I'd consider it the end of my life.

 

Life, "Definition of LIFE

 

1

a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body

b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings

c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

2

a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual

b : one or more aspects of the process of living <sex life of the frog>"

 

"Or in the last extreme of defending my life"

The a'dam obviously doesn't threaten her life, it threatens their freedom.

There's quite a bit of difference between life and freedom.. There's also quite a difference between torture and punishment (The Damane only get disciplined when they break the rules, orders or back talk.. At least, that we've seen?)

 

Knowing the technical definition of "life" is not going to change many AS's perception that their lives are in danger. It will depend on the individual. Some will see the literal definition that being captured is not life threatening (if they can think that clearly in the chaos of an assault) but many would have the perception noted above - that even being taken damane is the end of their lives. After all, the damane get new names and are trained to believe that they are animals. That is basically a completely different life than they were used to.

 

Honestly, I don't understand how anyone would think that the Aes Sedai would not feel threatened enough during an assault to be able to use the Power as a weapon. I don't mean that to sound rude. I understand the points others have made - I'm just saying that we'll have to agree to disagree.

[Jillain Sanche]

Historically, chattel slavery has often been considered to be worse than death. There is much documentation of women slaves even killing their children when they had no hope of ever attaining freedom.

 

And although one could make the case that not all slave societies are equivalent in life conditions of the slaves, in this particular fictional case they are indeed treated as chattel. They are treated like pet dogs with pet names, albeit pets who are expected to kill and wreak havoc on demand and never to do any use of the power for positive or constructive use such as healing.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

That's like saying the Aes Sedai are allowed to kill White Cloaks because they BELIEVE they might kill them if they walk away from them.

 

This is not a very good example. Obviously, they could not attack Whitecloaks just because the Children hate them and want them dead. If the Whitecloaks were actually threatening them and attacking them it would be a different story. They also feel more confident that they can handle the Whitecloaks non-lethally because the WCs cannot use the power like the damane. If you knew that recently the Seanchan assaulted the WT and killed several Aes Sedai and then suddenly they are assaulting the WT again, you would likely be afraid for your life.

 

And the oath does not say "to prevent my death". If it had, you might've had a stronger argument. It speaks if life, which has a wider definition. I were to be brought into a slavery with almost mo possibility of escape and endure long-term torture, I'd consider it the end of my life.

 

Life, "Definition of LIFE

 

1

a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body

b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings

c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

2

a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual

b : one or more aspects of the process of living <sex life of the frog>"

 

"Or in the last extreme of defending my life"

The a'dam obviously doesn't threaten her life, it threatens their freedom.

There's quite a bit of difference between life and freedom.. There's also quite a difference between torture and punishment (The Damane only get disciplined when they break the rules, orders or back talk.. At least, that we've seen?)

 

Knowing the technical definition of "life" is not going to change many AS's perception that their lives are in danger. It will depend on the individual. Some will see the literal definition that being captured is not life threatening (if they can think that clearly in the chaos of an assault) but many would have the perception noted above - that even being taken damane is the end of their lives. After all, the damane get new names and are trained to believe that they are animals. That is basically a completely different life than they were used to.

 

Honestly, I don't understand how anyone would think that the Aes Sedai would not feel threatened enough during an assault to be able to use the Power as a weapon. I don't mean that to sound rude. I understand the points others have made - I'm just saying that we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

This is not a very good example. Obviously, they could not attack Whitecloaks just because the Children hate them and want them dead. If the Whitecloaks were actually threatening them and attacking them it would be a different story. They also feel more confident that they can handle the Whitecloaks non-lethally because the WCs cannot use the power like the damane. If you knew that recently the Seanchan assaulted the WT and killed several Aes Sedai and then suddenly they are assaulting the WT again, you would likely be afraid for your life.

 

It depends on how you read the example.

The oath they make has nothing to do with their confidence at being able to handle a group of Whitecloaks.. It's about not being able to react until their lives actually are in danger. If the Aes Sedai believe that the Whitecloaks will attack if they walk away, they're still not allowed to attack until the Whitecloaks do.. Same thing with the Seanchan, if the Aes Sedai believe that the Seanchan will attack if they fight back, they're still not able to use the Power as a weapon until the Seanchan do attack

 

Knowing the technical definition of "life" is not going to change many AS's perception that their lives are in danger. It will depend on the individual. Some will see the literal definition that being captured is not life threatening (if they can think that clearly in the chaos of an assault) but many would have the perception noted above - that even being taken damane is the end of their lives. After all, the damane get new names and are trained to believe that they are animals. That is basically a completely different life than they were used to.

 

Knowing the definition of life does should the way the Aes Sedai can react, if their lives aren't in danger, they shouldn't be able to use lethal weaves.

 

 

 

 

 

I guess I'm looking at how the oaths should "technically" work.. If the Aes Sedai are allowed to "lie" and use the Power as a weapon when their lives aren't in danger.. Then what's next? using the Power to make weapons for women? (For one man to kill another) then the woman can just hand the weapons to the men? Since they made it for the woman, it's not breaking their oath..

 

As Egwene (And every other Aes Sedai) it's the Three Oaths that make Aes Sedai different from every other group of channelers.. When they break all three, what are they?

 

 

 

I guess I'm looking to technically into the oaths.. I guess the Aes Sedai made them to please the public, knowing they can get around them all..

[moratcorlm]

Historically, chattel slavery has often been considered to be worse than death.

That's neither here nor there; it doesn't change the fact that an Aes Sedai would have to be especially disingenuous to twist her Oath to fight to prevent it, and the more it's harped on about how much worse than death (i.e., far from death) it is, the more disingenuous she'd have to be. I suppose it's fortuitous, for the Aes Sedai, that lying artfully is a cottage industry in the Tower.

never to do any use of the power for positive or constructive use such as healing.

That's simply untrue; what Egwene learned in TGH, and the experiences of Mylen and Pura, have shown that there are many nonviolent uses for damane, and since the introduction of the Healing weave it is likely that will be a large part of their total channeling. Probably moreso than in the Tower, in fact. Certainly damane are preferred to be adept at killing weaves, but that's hardly the limit of their utility; they perform a broad range of tasks in many different aspects of society.

[Jillain Sanche]

Where have you read that they have any other tasks besides making war? (And forget the fortune telling.) No, they do not do healing; Seanchan are so afraid of the power at this point in time, not a one of them would want to be the subject of healing.

 

And no, the issue of slavery is not "here nor there;" Jordan uses it for a reason and he does not portray it as a benevolent institution. He knows the history of it in society.

[RyanDuranGeiger]

Where have you read that they have any other tasks besides making war? (And forget the fortune telling.) No, they do not do healing; Seanchan are so afraid of the power at this point in time, not a one of them would want to be the subject of healing.

 

And no, the issue of slavery is not "here nor there;" Jordan uses it for a reason and he does not portray it as a benevolent institution. He knows the history of it in society.

 

 

Egwene was being sent to Seandar because she would be useful for mining.

[moratcorlm]

Where have you read that they have any other tasks besides making war?

For one, damane with strength in Earth are used to divine ore.

“Apparently,” she said bitterly, “I am now too valuable to be wasted making things explode. Any damane can do that; only a handful can find ores in the ground. Light, I hate making things explode, but I wish that was all I could do.”

I'm almost positive there was something explicit about excavations and construction work. There's also Sky Lights and such.

No, they do not do healing; Seanchan are so afraid of the power at this point in time, not a one of them would want to be the subject of healing.

Well, even now, Karede thinks favorably about Healing in KOD36. But so what? Tuon is now Empress, and she thinks:

This Healing is a wonderful thing. My Mylen knows it, and I taught it to my others, too. Of course, many people are foolish about having the Power touch them. Half my servants would faint at the suggestion, and most of the Blood, too, I shouldn’t be surprised.

It's likely that old fears (which aren't even old, since Healing is just being introduced; it's a knee-jerk reaction, really) will be overridden by the Empress's will, but even if the situation doesn't change, that's not much different from the status quo ante, where Mat's attitude toward being Healed was common and the Aes Sedai didn't go out of their way to offer Healing off of the Tower grounds in any case.

And no, the issue of slavery is not "here nor there;" Jordan uses it for a reason and he does not portray it as a benevolent institution. He knows the history of it in society.

Well, "societies" is a better word. But the issue of whether or not Aes Sedai's Third Oath would prevent them from using the One Power as a weapon against damane is unaffected by whether you or I or anyone else think the a'dam/damane system is worse than death or the greatest invention of this Age.

[gary0044187]

they are able to hinder and slightly hurt other people just fine without the oaths kicking in. as for fighting the seanchan they have shown that they do not need to feel threatened to bind people with air and shield them. I wonder why the argument is still going.

[moratcorlm]

as for fighting the seanchan they have shown that they do not need to feel threatened to bind people with air and shield them.

Binding people in Air works well against non-channelers, but not so much against people who can cut the flows. And whose ability to strike at you isn't in the least impeded by being so bound. As for shielding, we've seen that it's nearly impossible for one channeler to shield another who is already holding the True Source unless the shielder is significantly stronger than the shieldee.

[Moogle]

A huge mistake made by Egwene is not having each and every angreal out and in use at all times.

 

Egwene has shown that, with a sa'angreal, she was unable to be shielded. Damane cannot link. Any sister with an angreal would be near impossible to shield.

 

Why are they hiding them away? What if another attack comes? Does Egwene really think they are going to give up after one attempt? "Oh yeah, they took a bunch of sisters, we killed a couple of their mounts... surely they will leave us alone!"

[Suttree]

they perform a broad range of tasks in many different aspects of society.

 

There's also Sky Lights and such.

 

Yeah Damane are totally working in numerous aspects of society. Probably why weaves as trivial as Sky Lights are mentioned to be one of the only things they do aside from kill.

[capuga]

I guess I'm looking at how the oaths should "technically" work.. If the Aes Sedai are allowed to "lie" and use the Power as a weapon when their lives aren't in danger.. Then what's next? using the Power to make weapons for women? (For one man to kill another) then the woman can just hand the weapons to the men? Since they made it for the woman, it's not breaking their oath..

 

But Aes Sedai can lie. They just have to believe what they are saying. That is why the Salidar Aes Sedai are able to spread Suian's lies about the Red Ajah setting up Logain as a false dragon. And their lives are in danger. At least they will think they are. Remember, they don't have your knowledge of the Seanchan's goal to just capture them. They just know that they are being attacked by a group of people weilding the One Power who recently killed several of their members.

 

Again, you have presented a rational and articulate argument and I understand your point of view. I just don't agree with it.

[Taura-Tierno]

Your quote refers to Alanna talking about her warder, yes? She cannot use it for revenge, but if the whitecloaks attacked it would have been self defense.

 

And i still believe that the aes Sedai about to be raped would have been able to use the OP as a weapon. I'd consider that self-defense and fighting for my life.

 

Teslyn and Joline used it as a weapon without being directly threatened, just when the enemy was close enough. and they were not in direct mortal danger.

 

And there is still no guarantee, for the aes Sedai, to BELIEVE that the damane would not kill them if they resist. As I said; better that they die than are allowed to roam free. The Aes Sedai aren't damane yet.

 

And the oath does not say "to prevent my death". If it had, you might've had a stronger argument. It speaks if life, which has a wider definition. I were to be brought into a slavery with almost mo possibility of escape and endure long-term torture, I'd consider it the end of my life.

 

And i still believe that the aes Sedai about to be raped would have been able to use the OP as a weapon. I'd consider that self-defense and fighting for my life.

 

Being raped itself isn't life threatening (Traumatizing, terrifying and extremely wrong, yes.), without actually knowing the person is going to (Or threatening to) end her life , she can't use the power as a weapon..

 

 

Teslyn and Joline used it as a weapon without being directly threatened, just when the enemy was close enough. and they were not in direct mortal danger.

 

Had arrows been shot near Teslyn or Joline, their lives would be threatened.

 

 

And there is still no guarantee, for the aes Sedai, to BELIEVE that the damane would not kill them if they resist. As I said; better that they die than are allowed to roam free. The Aes Sedai aren't damane yet.

 

That's like saying the Aes Sedai are allowed to kill White Cloaks because they BELIEVE they might kill them if they walk away from them..

 

 

And the oath does not say "to prevent my death". If it had, you might've had a stronger argument. It speaks if life, which has a wider definition. I were to be brought into a slavery with almost mo possibility of escape and endure long-term torture, I'd consider it the end of my life.

 

Life, "Definition of LIFE

 

1

a : the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body

b : a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings

c : an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

2

a : the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual

b : one or more aspects of the process of living <sex life of the frog>"

 

"Or in the last extreme of defending my life"

The a'dam obviously doesn't threaten her life, it threatens their freedom.

There's quite a bit of difference between life and freedom.. There's also quite a difference between torture and punishment (The Damane only get disciplined when they break the rules, orders or back talk.. At least, that we've seen?)

 

 

Concerning Joline and Teslyn: They're lives were threatened, yes. But they did not throw fireballs as "the last extreme", which is my point. They could have raised shields of Air and been perfectly protected from any kind of long-distance assault. Which means that there is some flexibility, and the threat doesn't have to be as severe as you claim.

 

Obviously, and Aes Sedai couldn't kill a whitecloak with the OP just because she knows he wants to kill her. But if the whitecloaks invaded the White Tower, even just to capture them, they could, because they'd be under attack.

 

The same way, if an Aes Sedai encountered a sul'dam and a damane somewhere, and the pair did not do anything, the Aes Sedai couldn't use the OP as a weapon. If, however, the damane started trying to shield and capture her, she'd be threatened. If she thought she could defeat the damane easily with shields and Air, she wouldn't be able to use it as a weapon. If, however, the damane were too strong to be shielded, the Aes Sedai would most certainly be able to use the OP as a weapon.

 

 

And do bear in mind that the dictionary's definition of a word is not always the the same as every single person's, especially not in a fictional world. Even so, if you look at this:

 

"the sequence of physical and mental experiences that make up the existence of an individual"

Notice the use of "individual", which usually means a sentient person. If I were captured by the Seanchan, I would consider it the end of the mental experiences that makes me an individual. I'd be turned into something less than an animal, being tortured and tormented and have my entire identity removed. There is definitely some leeway there.

 

And I don't see why this kind of "loopholes" shouldn't exist with this Oath. The Aes Sedai certainly seem to "lie" more often than they speak truth, after all. Which the example with Teslyn and Joline showed, since that most certainly was not "the last extreme" defense of their lives. They could have done plenty of other things. Hell, they could have left.

[csarmi]

Binding people in Air works well against non-channelers, but not so much against people who can cut the flows. And whose ability to strike at you isn't in the least impeded by being so bound.

 

You cannot cut flows when you are shielded.

 

As for shielding, we've seen that it's nearly impossible for one channeler to shield another who is already holding the True Source unless the shielder is significantly stronger than the shieldee.

 

You may believe so, but it's not true. It's all a matter of skill, oppurtunity and being precise.

Even circles of three would be all but unstoppable, most likely.

 

Besides, we still haven't figured out what counts as 'using the power as a weapon'.

Once we did that, we still need to figure out what counts as 'using the power as a weapon' according to Aes Sedai.

 

Until then, this whole argument is useless.

 

Examples:

 

- shielding a channeler

- binding someone in flows of air

- disabling someone (preemptively, but not causing any direct harm)

- creating a shield around you

- hiding your ability to channel

- setting wards, traps

 

Do any of these count as using the OP as a weapon? What IS a weapon anyway?