why all the hating on Egwene

[Darth Krewl]

Nice responses, Darth Krewl, Thank-you.

 

Galadriel was cool, no doubt, but she had hundreds of years to get where she was by the time the Fellowship met up with her.

 

Leia Organa... Leia from Star Wars? ... seriously? She could have out Sedai'd the Aes Sedai in imperious arrogance, so I'm not sure why you approve of her and not Egwene.

 

Daenerys Targaryen was brilliantly written and total awesome sauce. Egwene doesn't come close. :)

 

Egwene's rise was meteroical. I concede that her motivations were purely for the tower. She believes, however, that a strong WT is imperitave in the face of the last battle. I personally think she will come around and support Rand, and this is much more likely than, say, the Seanchan giving up their a'dam enforced slavery.

 

Glad you liked the responses, RC9. And thank you for the kind words, much appreciated :-)

 

Agreed on almost all fronts. Except for Leia . I agree that she's arrogant at first...till Han sets her straight big time lol! You don't see that in Gawyn. Quite the contrary, in fact (I don't think he'd dare tell her, "Listen, your Worship, I follow orders from just one person: Me!" ;-)) What sets her apart, IMO, is that she is completely selfless. She's not looking after her own interests, but fighting to free the galaxy from the Empire is all she cares about. Also, look at the way Leia cares about her friends (even when she doesn't know that Luke's her brother). Egwene is more than capable of turning against her friends, if she feels that their opinion is against her or inconvenient for her plans.

 

A strong, united White Tower is indispensable for the Last Battle, agreed 100%. Unfortunately, after I saw the ineptitude of Aes Sedai during the Seanchan attack (let's face it, w/o Egwene they would've been toast), I have serious doubts about their ability in intense combat situations vs. Forsaken, Dreadlords and the like. Even the Greens, supposed to be the "Battle Ajah" looked like chickens w/their heads chopped off against a handful of To'raken and Damane! Perhaps if they spent more time preparing for Tarmon Gai'don, instead of squabbling all the time, they'd be ready. But as it is, I believe Egwene has her work cut out for her and I just don't see her making any strides in this sense.

 

I agree with you here. The Aes Sedai arrogance is abhorant, and Egwene has certainly out arroganted them all. I just don't see the problem with an arrogant woman who gets things done. She would be hard to live with, and I'd probably avoid her as much as anyone, but I'm also pleased that someone besides me is getting the job done. :)

 

And Taim is slamming his men against walls and denying them healing, using some sort of compusion/mind control against his opponents and is most likely strongly influneced by one or more forsaken.

 

I think Aes Sedai arrogance is by design. I've a theory that Jordan was showing us the fall of the White Tower, precisely because he really made a point of showing us its flaws, rather than its qualities. I never liked/disliked Egwene much myself before her captivity and I admit she earned herself lots of points in the respect department with all she did during that time. Unfortunately, I had hoped that she'd revolutionize the AS mentality and she's not getting it done. Nothing wrong with strong, independent (and even arrogant women), that's always been my type precisely lol! But, when it hinders them more than it helps, I think it's time for someone to ground them. Hopefully, Rand will take care of this ;-)

 

As for Taim, he, along w/Lanfear, is my fave villain. Guy's just too creepy lol! Plus, he's sneaky and clever (and very effective, IMO, unlike most of the Forsaken, who are such clumsy twits heh!). But he is a villain, of course and as such, he is doing what you'd expect from him. Whereas Egwene's infuriating in the sense that, while no heroin by my standards, she is supposed to be one of the "good guys" and she's been hindering the efforts of the Light (unknowingly, if you will) more than helping them, IMO.

 

The Seanchan are far worse. They are human rights violators who would be sanctioned big time in today's world. Even by fantasy standards they are highly discriminatory, indulge whole heartedly in slave labor, subjugate women who can channel to the point that they have to give up their identity and behave like trained animals. On the otherhand, other than sticking their noses in the air and prancing around like they're better than anyone else, I don't see the Aes Sedai subjugating anyone... at least not in a way that causes anyone to lose their identity.

 

I'm wondering if a lot of the stuff people are criticizing Egwene for are based on her reaction to having been collared by the seanchan. Her desire to make the White Tower strong are perhaps her way of insuring that she would never be collared by them again.

 

Human Rights sanctions...lol! This is so funny because I've had a rather long and heated debate concerning this very topic on the ToM spoilers forum (discuss the full book) and I agree wholeheartedly. What got me into trouble on that thread was that, while I certainly don't approve of the Seanchan's enslaving ways in the very least, from a neutral position, I do think that there's some good qualities about them in other ways. Even Rand admits to this, during his brief visit to Ebou Dar. My whole point was that the Tower's not exactly a very democratic institution either.

 

Aes Sedai are bullies, who try to impose their will upon others, often relying to very questionable methods such as intimidation, coercion, etc., to get their way, which also constitutes violations to HR. Egwene's trauma concerning the A'dam is very strong, no doubt. But, I don't see the White Tower ready for a Seanchan attack on a bigger scale, anymore than I see them ready for Tarmon Gai'don. Too many tea parties to conspire and plot against everyone (including one another) instead of being grounded and mindful of the times of change they're facing.

 

So, I do believe the Tower will crumble and that a new Hall of the Servants will rise in its stead, w/men and women working together once again, which isn't a bad thing, if you think about it. At least, that's how I think Jordan was envisioning the fate of Tar Valon.

[EvilSocrates]

Interesting discussion.

 

I have to pre-face my comments with the note that the Aes Sedai are probably the second most disappointing thing in any fantasy series I have ever read, with the Forsaken just edging them out. Although, one might argue that the Forsaken are idiots by design, because only a complete moron goes around thinking that the DO will actually make them kings or queens instead of just destroying everything. This dovetails nicely with the fact that Ishydin is actually very competent, if insane, and he's the only one who seems to realize the deal. But thats off topic. Aes Sedai are total bullying morons who are built up as these huge badasses early on in the series. They really stink.

 

However, I DO think that their attitude towards Rand, and by extension Egwene's (whom I like more than most--shes probably my second favorite female character after Min recently), is more reasonable than people think. Many are saying things like "you can't put yourself before the Dragon" and "he is the leader of the Light, and you should follow him, not control him," but that's not really clear to the AS and Egwene and many other characters. They might think, like Moiraine did in the first book, that Rand is necessary because of his pattern bending properties or prophecy or what have you, not because of his ability to be a better leader and planner straight off the farm. Remember, all the prophecies about the DR are of the form "he will be reborn and kill just about everything, and all will weep, but rejoice because that is marginally better than the DO breaking free and winning!" Not "and the righteous DR will verily smite the DO, but only after the DO almost wins, before the purest dragon can save the remnant, in his wisdom, bless his name!"

 

Given that, its not totally unreasonable to think that a valid strategy is to try to contain the damage Rand will do before he can ta'avern them all a victory at SG somehow via blood sacrifice or whatever he has to do. Letting the crazy person who can melt mountains and who it is foretold will break the world while saving it probably seems unwise, from Egwene's perspective. Granted, Rand, even while freaking crazy, is still at least as competent your average Aes Sedai, but he was still super dangerous and unstable, and Egwene probably thinks that using his magical properties with a less crazy brain providing "guidance" would be better.

[Hadilmir]

Sure, the Seanchan are awful. But if all the Aes Sedai were guilty of where a superiority complex, that would be OK. But they're guilty of much more than that.

 

Including torture.

 

I was just re-reading Winter's Heart, and read that bit about the use of the Chair of Regret. Apparently the reason that crime is so uncommon in Tar Valon is that those accused of crime are psychologically tortured by use of the One Power until they are broken. Unless those accused of the crime are initiates of the Tower, because it is against Tower law to use the Chair of Regret on initiates.

 

The Aes Sedai of this Age a an horrific organization.

 

I'm beginning to skip over your posts because after you make your several good points you run out of worthwhile arguments and grasp at anything negative related to Aes Sedai. I've agreed with some things you've said in the past, but this post is ridiculous. Go reread the section you mentioned, it's specifically stated that the method used is showing the criminal the potential consequences of their crimes. As in murderer is forced to watch themselves stab someone only to find out it is their spouse, or even play out 'months' in a cell before going to the gallows for their murder. Then they are allowed to go free. That is the fairest system I have ever heard of and I would welcome it's use in the real world if possible. It is the learning curve without any true risk; the perfect punishment. The only thing more humane I can think of is the AoL method of binding criminals not to commit a crime again.

 

Technically, yes, that is torture. However, it is torture in the same sense that a prison sentence is torture. They are not specifically putting the guys in the Chair and having them hacked to pieces slowly by trollocs. That could only be a consequence of being a darkfriend, but I'd have no regrets whatsoever about forcing someone to watch what may have happened had their crime gone differently. Yes, they are breaking them, but it is of their will to do harm to others that they're breaking them. Tell me, are you one of those who do not condone the use of spanking to teach children what is right and wrong? If so, I'll just agree to disagree with you since I wouldn't really be able to understand your stance.

[randsc]

The point is that they exempt themselves.

[Hadilmir]

The point is that they exempt themselves.

 

That could've been made a whole lot clearer in your post. You at the very least indirectly linked their use of torture to the Aes Sedai being a horrific organization. Still, I'll agree with you on the part where they exempt themselves, it isn't terrible or horrific, but it does seem wrong. I have a feeling (But no proof) that the reason behind the distinction is the understanding that Aes Sedai are taught to deal with emotional and mental stress, so demeaning their pride itself through penance is probably more effective than the 'torture'.

[buckeyebull64]

Interesting discussion.

 

I have to pre-face my comments with the note that the Aes Sedai are probably the second most disappointing thing in any fantasy series I have ever read, with the Forsaken just edging them out. Although, one might argue that the Forsaken are idiots by design, because only a complete moron goes around thinking that the DO will actually make them kings or queens instead of just destroying everything. This dovetails nicely with the fact that Ishydin is actually very competent, if insane, and he's the only one who seems to realize the deal. But thats off topic. Aes Sedai are total bullying morons who are built up as these huge badasses early on in the series. They really stink.

 

However, I DO think that their attitude towards Rand, and by extension Egwene's (whom I like more than most--shes probably my second favorite female character after Min recently), is more reasonable than people think. Many are saying things like "you can't put yourself before the Dragon" and "he is the leader of the Light, and you should follow him, not control him," but that's not really clear to the AS and Egwene and many other characters. They might think, like Moiraine did in the first book, that Rand is necessary because of his pattern bending properties or prophecy or what have you, not because of his ability to be a better leader and planner straight off the farm. Remember, all the prophecies about the DR are of the form "he will be reborn and kill just about everything, and all will weep, but rejoice because that is marginally better than the DO breaking free and winning!" Not "and the righteous DR will verily smite the DO, but only after the DO almost wins, before the purest dragon can save the remnant, in his wisdom, bless his name!"

 

Given that, its not totally unreasonable to think that a valid strategy is to try to contain the damage Rand will do before he can ta'avern them all a victory at SG somehow via blood sacrifice or whatever he has to do. Letting the crazy person who can melt mountains and who it is foretold will break the world while saving it probably seems unwise, from Egwene's perspective. Granted, Rand, even while freaking crazy, is still at least as competent your average Aes Sedai, but he was still super dangerous and unstable, and Egwene probably thinks that using his magical properties with a less crazy brain providing "guidance" would be better.

 

In the sprirt of friendly disagreement, I feel I should point out that the Aes Sedai of this age DO deserve the reputation we got early on in the books. They are the most scholarly of any group, powerful compared to you average guy, and it was the average guy perspective that we started out with. After that, we begin to get the perspectives of people who are just as competent, powerful, and knowledgable as they are, if not more so.

 

And I can agree that people who would just allow rand to run amok should be suspected of insanity, coming from the general perspective of the third age. On the other hand, he's still a person, who needs to grow and develope, who has plans and ideas and needs. My problem with Egwene is that she was in the best position to see that, to be there for him after he lost his first advisor, to listen to him, trust him, and have him trust her and listen to her in return, basically to be his partner. Instead, she set herself against him in a conflict based relationship that has only caused problems.

[Xader]

RedCastle made me think...there are some women in WoT that do have a poor view of men...but I would argue Egwene isn't one of them. Thinking about it, it seems to me that she less of a problem with men than she does with Rand in particular. It seems to me like she doesn't think of men in general poorly, but rather thinks of Rand like EVERYthing ever good or smart about him is gone. And Mat, the opposite, like he never changed.

 

To an extent, I agree. But even as far back as TEoTW, we see her belittling Rand, and thinking that he can't possibly know more about something than her. And the entire scene with the reunion in Camelyn, and then again in the Ways when she asks "Who is Elayne?" and he responds "the Daughter-Heir of Andor", her immediate response is ..... "Well, if you can't be serious for one minute Rand al'Thor, I don't see any point in talking to you." No attempt at investigation, no asking others if it might be possible, nothing like that, in fact she doesn't believe him until she meets Elayne in the WT.

 

Think about this exchange in modern context.

 

Say you accidentally find yourself in Buckingham Palace, in the presence of the queen.

 

Later, your friend mentions Elizabeth. Your significant other asks: "who is Elizabeth?" and you respond: "the queen of England."

 

Would you expect him/her to believe you're being sincere?

[Darth Krewl]

In the sprirt of friendly disagreement, I feel I should point out that the Aes Sedai of this age DO deserve the reputation we got early on in the books. They are the most scholarly of any group, powerful compared to you average guy, and it was the average guy perspective that we started out with. After that, we begin to get the perspectives of people who are just as competent, powerful, and knowledgable as they are, if not more so.

 

I can see your point, though I respectfully disagree.

 

IMO, the countless weaves that have been discovered/rediscovered over the series, leads one to understand that Aes Sedai of the Third Age are not all they're cracked up to be (in universe) nor are they anywhere close to their counterparts from the Age of Legends (the fact that the Forsaken are such clumsy and useless twits is a different thing altogether). They are as square and stiff as they come; always unwilling to try new things with the Power (hey, it comes from the Creator, only like the most creative being in the universe. So, hint, hint: you have this gift, now use it in creative ways!) always afraid of the new and always discouraging young novices from trying new things, through fear.

 

You claim that we see them through the eyes of other powerful, knowledgeable characters. In-universe, this is the case. But don't forget that we, the readers, are not supposed to be Farmer Giles from Watch Hill, either. All you have to do is look at the AS from a modern day perspective, to find their many flaws. Example: according to the BWB, the first channelers started to show up early in Age Two, if I'm not mistaken, and were only between 1 and 2% of the general population.

 

Now, since ages in the WoT universe are supposed to be around 3000 yrs., compare the progress and evolution from those first channelers to the Aes Sedai at the time of the Drilling, to that of the Aes Sedai from the Breaking to the eve of Tarmon Gai'don. IMO, it's not even close. They've had 3000 yrs. and yet, what little progress they've made. They have barely evolved. And this is not the result of all the knowledge that was lost, as those first channelers of the previous age had nothing; they had to build everything from scratch. So, clearly, the AS of the Third Age are not the mighty, wise and mystical wizards that one might have been led to believe in the first few books.

 

And I can agree that people who would just allow rand to run amok should be suspected of insanity, coming from the general perspective of the third age. On the other hand, he's still a person, who needs to grow and develope, who has plans and ideas and needs. My problem with Egwene is that she was in the best position to see that, to be there for him after he lost his first advisor, to listen to him, trust him, and have him trust her and listen to her in return, basically to be his partner. Instead, she set herself against him in a conflict based relationship that has only caused problems.

 

Agreed with the Third Age mentality. Problem is that, as the Dragon Reborn, Rand is a different kind of animal altogether. Therefore, he can't be treated as you would any normal person. Based on the Karaethon Cycle, he can't be seen as a normal human being, but more like a natural force of nature. And, concerning nature, you can't do anything other than adapt and adjust. If it's too cold, you put on tons of clothes on you; you don't command the cold to stop. If it's too hot, you take your clothes off and a cold shower to refresh yourself; you don't command the heat to stop.

 

So it is with the Dragon Reborn; the champion of the Light and the Creator himself. He only serves those two omnipotent entities and no one else. Let's look at the way Moiraine tried to handle him. At first, she did want the cold or the heat to stop...till she realized that it was her who had to adapt to the guy. She adopted a far more humble, very wise and intelligent posture, honestly leading Rand to believe that she didn't want to control and manipulate, but to help him. When Rand saw that the woman was honest, he finally started to trust her.

 

We don't see that kind of wisdom in Egwene, agreed. Though in all fairness, it took Cadsuane (Rand's self-imposed mentor) a long while to also see this. Still, IMO, Egwene is too young, inexperienced, unwise and full of herself to see the wisdom learned through harsh experience that Moiraine and Cadsuane were able to see and I do believe these 2 (Rand and Egwene) are in for a big clash, which I blame squarely on her, if/when it comes, 'cause I agree: it was her who set herself against him and not the other way around.

[moratcorlm]

Now, since ages in the WoT universe are supposed to be around 3000 yrs.

As something of an aside, this is not really accurate. The Third Age is 3000 years long (or at least this one has been); that implies nothing about the lengths of other Ages. An Age is defined by what happens during it more than how long it takes anything to get done, and in that regard the Third Age has been one of incompleteness and stagnation.

[Darth Krewl]

Now, since ages in the WoT universe are supposed to be around 3000 yrs.

As something of an aside, this is not really accurate. The Third Age is 3000 years long (or at least this one has been); that implies nothing about the lengths of other Ages. An Age is defined by what happens during it more than how long it takes anything to get done, and in that regard the Third Age has been one of incompleteness and stagnation.

 

I understand. This is why I said "supposed to be around", because I don't have accurate data of how long a turn of the Wheel would take, so I wouldn't presume to know for a fact.

 

But my point is exactly what I've highlighted in bold. One only has to look at real history to see how long we've come over the last 3000 yrs. to see how stagnant and slow to develop the Third Age has been since the Breaking, which would serve the point I made in my original post the same, regardless on the exact or inexact length of an age.

[Ihasavowel]

 

 

But my point is exactly what I've highlighted in bold. One only has to look at real history to see how long we've come over the last 3000 yrs. to see how stagnant and slow to develop the Third Age has been since the Breaking, which would serve the point I made in my original post the same, regardless on the exact or inexact length of an age.

I suspect that in the real world, we do not have one of the Forsaken interferring in our affairs, in order to prevent consolodation, cooperation, and progress.

[Jon Paul]

I suspect that in the real world, we do not have one of the Forsaken interferring in our affairs, in order to prevent consolodation, cooperation, and progress.

 

And people say the Forsaken are failures?

[Hadilmir]

And people say the Forsaken are failures?

 

Quick Question: Is Ishmael still considered one of the Forsaken? He seems like too much of a BAMF for that...

[Darth Krewl]

I suspect that in the real world, we do not have one of the Forsaken interferring in our affairs, in order to prevent consolodation, cooperation, and progress.

 

No, but some would tell you that there's something called the Illuminati trying to take over the world...or the Free Masons or the Rosicrucians or some other evil, secret society privy to occult knowledge that has put them in power, so on and so forth.

 

And still, whether these conspiracy theories are real or not, humankind keeps evolving and moving forward, especially during the last 200 yrs. or so. Besides, judging from what I've seen out of the Forsaken over the 13 books published so far, I can't really see them hinderning anyone's efforts but their own ;-)

[Jon Paul]

No, but some would tell you that there's something called the Illuminati trying to take over the world...or the Free Masons or the Rosicrucians or some other evil, secret society privy to occult knowledge that has put them in power, so on and so forth.

 

It's a fact with the Freemasons though. Their work in France brought the Old World to her knees with that blasted revolution that they engineered. Then we had to deal with them in Iberia. We gave them a good thumping that time though. The Blessed Virgin herself saw to them in Portugal!

 

We've let them get on in that White House of theirs too long though! King George, if he himself wasn't a Freemason, should have stamped it out long ago !

[Darth Krewl]

It's a fact with the Freemasons though. Their work in France brought the Old World to her knees with that blasted revolution that they engineered. Then we had to deal with them in Iberia. We gave them a good thumping that time though. The Blessed Virgin herself saw to them in Portugal!

 

We've let them get on in that White House of theirs too long though! King George, if he himself wasn't a Freemason, should have stamped it out long ago !

 

Hmm...I could tell you a few things about Freemasons (grandson of a 33rd. degree, Grand Master, here) but then, I'd have to kill you and then, they would kill me too...heh heh

 

J/k...what I do know is that lots of things that are said about Freemasons are exaggerations, to say the least, and that's just how they like it.

 

BTW, did you know that James Rigney was a Freemason himself? And that the Wheel of Time is filled with Masonic imagery? Whaddaya know, right?

[Jon Paul]

J/k...what I do know is that lots of things that are said about Freemasons are exaggerations, to say the least, and that's just how they like it.

 

Oh don't get me wrong I know most are harmless (though as a Catholic I worry individually for their immortal souls).

 

BTW, did you know that James Rigney was a Freemason himself? And that the Wheel of Time is filled with Masonic imagery? Whaddaya know, right?

 

Aah but Masonic imagery its self is not bad because they themselves draw their inspiration from other sources .

[Darth Krewl]

Aah but Masonic imagery its self is not bad because they themselves draw their inspiration from other sources .

 

Yep, Jordan did borrow a lot from Eastern philosophies, too. Hinduism, Jainism, Taoism and Buddhism, mostly. All in all, I believe he appealed to the natural interests of humankind in general to build his amazing world and tale. To me, that's one of the most fascinating aspects I've found in WoT, the rich use of imagery.

[Jon Paul]

To me, that's one of the most fascinating aspects I've found in WoT, the rich use of imagery.

 

I actually have most of it go over my head except for the obvious influences from Eastern philosophy and culture (I'm still trying to figure out of the Dark one is greater than the Pattern ).

[Terror405]

I think she was great up until Siuan got at her. Me no like Amyrlin Egwene. It was crippling when Egwene agreed not to change the Tower's stance on oaths.

[Ihasavowel]

I suspect that in the real world, we do not have one of the Forsaken interferring in our affairs, in order to prevent consolodation, cooperation, and progress.

 

No, but some would tell you that there's something called the Illuminati trying to take over the world...or the Free Masons or the Rosicrucians or some other evil, secret society privy to occult knowledge that has put them in power, so on and so forth.

 

And still, whether these conspiracy theories are real or not, humankind keeps evolving and moving forward, especially during the last 200 yrs. or so. Besides, judging from what I've seen out of the Forsaken over the 13 books published so far, I can't really see them hinderning anyone's efforts but their own ;-)

Your argument makes no sense. The Illuminati are small fry next to the Forsaken. Hoped for occult powers are no match for the One Power, and if the Illuminati are up to starting a Trolloc war, they've obviously opted not to.

 

200 years ago takes us only to 1810. I doubt that 1810 levels of "progress/advancement" are supposed to have existed in WoTland, at any time since the Breaking. Your argument implicitly relies on the unspoken assumption that the last 200 years is some kind of inevitability once one reaches a certain point, while ignoring the fact that it appears WoTland has never reached that point in the time since the Breaking, and that many cultures approached that point throughout human history (and then receeded from it), while others had never made it past the stoneage.

 

In the real world, literacy and agriculture are at least 10,000 years old, yet it took 9800 of those years to get to where we were 200 years ago, and for many of us (humanity), that was still in the stone age. Taking 3000 years to get where WoTland is, when those years include a Trolloc war, and two Forsaken-orchestrated collapses of a unified order (the Covenent of the Ten Nations, and Hawkwing's Empire), is not all that bad.

[Sleeper]

I honestly didn't mind her until the last couple books. It was cool and all how she was Amyrlin and managed to outmanipulate people who thought she was just a puppet and resist Elaida as well, but her personality seriously degraded in TGS and TOM.

[GaseousAnomaly]

"Let the lord of chaos rule" pretty much castrated the forsaken. After reading that bit I stopped seeing them as a real threat to Rand and I think it removed some tension(sadly).

[htarcan]

I didn't like her in the village. You know, the fist book. Though I admire everything she does in the white tower after her so-called capture. I enjoyed those chapters alot.

[Exy]

Reacting against female characters is not necessarily misogyny. At least, it is not indicative of misogyny on the part of the READER.

Not necessarily, to be sure, but that doesn't mean it's not applicable sometimes.

 

A certain degree of sexism on the part of the author is hard to ignore, though, and readers who fail to recognize that earn my ire.

 

 

In other words' date=' blame the author for being unable to write strong female characters who don't come off as nasty little tyrants, before you blame the reader for not liking nasty little tyrants (who happen to be female.)[/quote']

I do, although I'm not sure that WoT fandom isn't generally a little harder on women characters.

 

 

If yes' date=' why is it OK for Tylin to do that to Mat?[/quote']

It's not, although I have never been able to decide if I think that's sexism against men, or a laughing sort of fratboy mentality that holds that it would be ridiculous for a man to protest being held captive by an attractive woman.

 

 

Here's an interesting question: If the gender roles in WoT were reversed ' date=' would the fans bash the males ? I'm sure as hell they would , not to mention that the books wouldn't have been published in the first place.[/quote']

You mean, if the books featured recurring themes depicting men being spanked or whipped, or descending from positions of power to realizing they're happier just serving their wives, or even being beaten by their wives and secretly being grateful for being taken in hand by them?

 

 

Here's an interesting question: If the gender roles in WoT were reversed ' date=' would the fans bash the males ? I'm sure as hell they would , not to mention that the books wouldn't have been published in the first place. [/quote']

That's the biggest unique feature of Egwene's personality -- she's willing to abandon her attitudes and preconceptions and throw herself into anything. When she decided to become an Aes Sedai, she became the best Aes Sedai she could. When she trained with the Aiel, she became the best apprentice Wise Woman she could. When she became the Amyrlin, she became the best Amyrlin she could. She'll throw herself into whatever circumstance and embrace whatever it requires of her. I find that to be an appealing quality, and one that's fairly unique among the major characters in the books. Contrasted with the other characters' parochialism, it seems like a positive to me.

 

 

It seems that whenever there’s a woman who shows assertiveness she gets castigated. A man in the same situation as Egwene would be admired. It kind of makes me wonder if the people calling her sexist really know what sexist means.

Duh, it means she went against Rand.

 

 

As far as Egwene not being sexist....have you actually read the books? The entire WoT universe is sexist (i.e. Discriminating against men)

It's not exactly that I'm surprised to see someone say this' date=' but viewing the WoT universe as sexist against men, given what we've seen, is just really nutty.

 

 

"Well, if you can't be serious for one minute Rand al'Thor, I don't see any point in talking to you." No attempt at investigation, no asking others if it might be possible, nothing like that, in fact she doesn't believe him until she meets Elayne in the WT.

No one believes him. Fuck, Birgitte didn't even initially believe that Elayne was the daughter-heir. This is stupid.