I found a mistake in Sanderson's writing

[Dagon Thyne]

I am reading TGS.....and on page 593 when Egwene is being led to the Novices' Quarters after being let out of her cell, he writes "But she's won. The realization was just beginning to dawn on her. She'd won She'd resisted the worst punishment Elaida could contrive, and had come out victorious! The Amyrlin would be punished by the Hall and Egwene would go free."

 

 

This is supposed to be from Egwene's point of view. Eqwene would never consider Elaida as the Amyrlin. To her Elaida was a traitor to the Tower, and never deserved the title......Sanderson should have wrote "Elaida would be punished"....not The Amyrlin....

[raolan]

...

[Demiandre]

I suppose it is from a political an hierarchical point of view. Which explain the use of "Amyrlin" to refer to Elaida. Because she has to submit to the will of the Hall.

[dovien]

There are plenty of mistakes in Sanderson's writing. Don't get too het up about it.

Although, it might be useful if we compiled a list of them.

[Kestrel]

There are plenty of mistakes in Sanderson's writing. Don't get too het up about it.

Although, it might be useful if we compiled a list of them.

Or not. What would be the point? Overall they're minor.

 

When faced with such a temptation I think about whether I could have done better, or whether I would just make my own set of different mistakes.

[Darth Krewl]

Technically, since Elaida was raised as Amyrlin lawfully at the White Tower, this is not a mistake. Egwene being out of character for one little line? Sure. Richard Nixon, for instance, was ousted after Watergate, but he was the President of the USA one way or the other, until he was out of the White House.

 

I'm pretty sure that, in the 1000's of pages Jordan wrote, he must have overlooked something like this. Man was a good writer, but like the rest of us, he wasn't perfect and Sanderson's doing an amazing job as it is. This is just nitpicking and not a plot hole or a continuity mistake per se, which IMO, are the serious mistakes that can do a lot of damage to a story.

[Dagon Thyne]

Technically, since Elaida was raised as Amyrlin lawfully at the White Tower, this is not a mistake. Egwene being out of character for one little line? Sure. Richard Nixon, for instance, was ousted after Watergate, but he was the President of the USA one way or the other, until he was out of the White House.

 

I'm pretty sure that, in the 1000's of pages Jordan wrote, he must have overlooked something like this. Man was a good writer, but like the rest of us, he wasn't perfect and Sanderson's doing an amazing job as it is. This is just nitpicking and not a plot hole or a continuity mistake per se, which IMO, are the serious mistakes that can do a lot of damage to a story.

 

 

Actualy her rise was illegal because of the fact that half of the Hall that stood for her were Black Ajah......They are legaally not Aes Sedai....so they had no authority to stand for a new Amyrlin.....PLus there is the fact that Tower Law was broken when the former Alyrlin was deposed.....If you are wndering what I mean.....Tower Law says that every Ajah must be present at any hearing that involves the deposing or raising of a new Amyrlin.......no Blues (That were not secretly Black Ajah) were present at Siuan's dispoal

 

 

Ignorance of a situation does not justify breaking the law......so the fact that Elaida never knew that there were Blacks in the Hall....does not justify the Black's votes....they still did not legally count.....

[Darth Krewl]

Actualy her rise was illegal because of the fact that half of the Hall that stood for her were Black Ajah......They are legaally not Aes Sedai....so they had no authority to stand for a new Amyrlin.....PLus there is the fact that Tower Law was broken when the former Alyrlin was deposed.....If you are wndering what I mean.....Tower Law says that every Ajah must be present at any hearing that involves the deposing or raising of a new Amyrlin.......no Blues (That were not secretly Black Ajah) were present at Siuan's dispoal

 

 

Ignorance of a situation does not justify breaking the law......so the fact that Elaida never knew that there were Blacks in the Hall....does not justify the Black's votes....they still did not legally count.....

 

In universe, none knew that half of the Hall who stood behind Elaida was Black, till Egwene received intel on the Blacks from Verin. Therefore, to the eyes of the White Tower, those women were legitimate Aes Sedai at the time. Had somebody known the truth about them beforehand, I'm quite certain that Elaida would have been deposed on the spot and the Black Sisters tried and executed. Just as they were, after Egwene had gathered her evidence from Verin.

 

No, I'm not wondering what you mean. I'm clearly not as big a fan of the WoT as you, but I know my politics in general, believe me. What Elaida did is universally known as a coup and that's illegal in any country/organization where it takes place, regardless of how it occurs. Real life example: Augusto Pinochet's rise to power in Chile during the early 70's. Though his coup d'etat was completely illegal and, unlike Elaida's raising, there was enough evidence to prove it. Still, to the world at large, Pinochet was Chile's legitimate President.

 

Ignorance of a situation does not justify breaking the law, indeed. As long as there is proof that said law has been breached and evidence strong enough to support it; something that was impossible, until Egwene's discoveries through Verin. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, Elaida ai'Roihan was the official Amyrlin Seat to the world at large, whether legally in office or not.

 

As for the phrase "The Amyrlin would be punished by the Hall and Egwene would go free.", which is the point discussed in this thread, it's possible, no matter how unlikely, that Egwene was thinking in terms of those peers of hers in the Tower who had been led to believe (foolishly, if you will) that Elaida was the legitimate Amyrlin. In that case, calling the woman "Amyrlin" wouldn't be a mistake per se.

 

Perhaps Sanderson should or could have phrased it differently, but again, the phrase does not constitute a plot hole or an error inconsistent with the rest of the story. An inaccuracy, perhaps. But not a mistake. At least not IMO. And again, I'm certain Mr. Jordan overlooked similar lines, paragraphs or phrases in the 11 books he wrote himself.

[dovien]

Or not. What would be the point? Overall they're minor.

If we made a list then Team Jordan could be informed what fixes to make for the next printing.

[Dagon Thyne]

Actualy her rise was illegal because of the fact that half of the Hall that stood for her were Black Ajah......They are legaally not Aes Sedai....so they had no authority to stand for a new Amyrlin.....PLus there is the fact that Tower Law was broken when the former Alyrlin was deposed.....If you are wndering what I mean.....Tower Law says that every Ajah must be present at any hearing that involves the deposing or raising of a new Amyrlin.......no Blues (That were not secretly Black Ajah) were present at Siuan's dispoal

 

 

Ignorance of a situation does not justify breaking the law......so the fact that Elaida never knew that there were Blacks in the Hall....does not justify the Black's votes....they still did not legally count.....

 

In universe, none knew that half of the Hall who stood behind Elaida was Black, till Egwene received intel on the Blacks from Verin. Therefore, to the eyes of the White Tower, those women were legitimate Aes Sedai at the time. Had somebody known the truth about them beforehand, I'm quite certain that Elaida would have been deposed on the spot and the Black Sisters tried and executed. Just as they were, after Egwene had gathered her evidence from Verin.

 

No, I'm not wondering what you mean. I'm clearly not as big a fan of the WoT as you, but I know my politics in general, believe me. What Elaida did is universally known as a coup and that's illegal in any country/organization where it takes place, regardless of how it occurs. Real life example: Augusto Pinochet's rise to power in Chile during the early 70's. Though his coup d'etat was completely illegal and, unlike Elaida's raising, there was enough evidence to prove it. Still, to the world at large, Pinochet was Chile's legitimate President.

 

Ignorance of a situation does not justify breaking the law, indeed. As long as there is proof that said law has been breached and evidence strong enough to support it; something that was impossible, until Egwene's discoveries through Verin. Therefore, for all intents and purposes, Elaida ai'Roihan was the official Amyrlin Seat to the world at large, whether legally in office or not.

 

As for the phrase "The Amyrlin would be punished by the Hall and Egwene would go free.", which is the point discussed in this thread, it's possible, no matter how unlikely, that Egwene was thinking in terms of those peers of hers in the Tower who had been led to believe (foolishly, if you will) that Elaida was the legitimate Amyrlin. In that case, calling the woman "Amyrlin" wouldn't be a mistake per se.

 

Perhaps Sanderson should or could have phrased it differently, but again, the phrase does not constitute a plot hole or an error inconsistent with the rest of the story. An inaccuracy, perhaps. But not a mistake. At least not IMO. And again, I'm certain Mr. Jordan overlooked similar lines, paragraphs or phrases in the 11 books he wrote himself.

 

 

 

There is another law that was broken when Siuan was disposed.......to dispose an Amyrlin, the Hall must be called to a full session......Elaida and the sitters made sure that only a small number of sitters who were loyal to Elaida were present at Siuan's diposal......So because they did not call a formal session, and did it in secret, they broke tower law.....

[Darth Krewl]

There is another law that was broken when Siuan was disposed.......to dispose an Amyrlin, the Hall must be called to a full session......Elaida and the sitters made sure that only a small number of sitters who were loyal to Elaida were present at Siuan's diposal......So because they did not call a formal session, and did it in secret, they broke tower law.....

 

Okay, see, I've never said that Elaida was the rightful Amyrlin. Only that in-universe, she was perceived as such, with the exception of the rebel Aes Sedai, of course.

 

That being said, IMO the problem is Sanderson's use of the word Amyrlin, concerning of Egwene's thoughts. And I agree that it does feel out of character for someone who despised Elaida as deeply as the "child Amyrlin" did. Still, I consider that a minor inaccuracy, as I've already said, and not a major mistake that could affect continuity or consistency within the WoT story or timeline, in any way.

 

Far as I know, Egwene could've been using the term Amyrlin in a sarcastic sense and Sanderson just forgot to put it in italics to highlight it. Either way, it's something that can be easily corrected and nothing that Jordan couldn't have done himself a few times.

[lou]

i think the thing that bothers me most in sanderson's writing is the way he has handles the romantic scenes, a 14 year old girl could have put more thought into some of those scenes. then there is tempest every chance he gets. i dont think anyone but jordan could have gotten it right, sadly. i will take what is given and be thankful for it.

[T00thbrush]

I've got to say I'm not sure what's the big fuss about "tempest"... I didn't really notice it the first time around, and even now that I've read so many complaints about it and am re-reading ToM... still doesn't bother me.

 

As for love scenes, RJ himself was weak in that area - many romances popped up out of nowhere, and in just about every single one of those romances characters instantly proclaim their undying, absolute love to one another and hurry up to try and get married *facepalm*

[Demiandre]

No I don't think so toothbrush. Look at Maighdin and Tallanvor, or Gaul and Bain and Chiad. Those are well done I think. Both secrets, not really worded, and always with difficulties. Even Bryne and Siuan are good.

 

Egwene and Gawyn, on the other side... same for Elayne and Rand. It feels too much like Ta'veren, unlike Min and Aviendha.

 

But then, I don't think I could have done better

[T00thbrush]

"Many", not all I'm fine with Gaul and his ladies, and with Siuan and Gareth (despite not being too keen on them as a couple, I see how they work). I'm not sure what I think about Morgase/Tallanvor, though. For me personally, that particular relationship started well enough, but didn't quite work out. I understand Tallanvor falling in love with his queen from a distance, and I also understand how Morgase losing her throne and Tallanvor remaining loyal and true could bring them together. But at the end of the day, I just couldn't quite "feel" it. It's a bit difficult to explain (and again is very much a personal feeling), but I felt a little bit like "yeah, OK, Tallanvor loves her, so she will have to love him, and they will have to end up tying the knot, because this is the way it always happens".

[Jon Paul]

I am reading TGS.....and on page 593 when Egwene is being led to the Novices' Quarters after being let out of her cell, he writes "But she's won. The realization was just beginning to dawn on her. She'd won She'd resisted the worst punishment Elaida could contrive, and had come out victorious! The Amyrlin would be punished by the Hall and Egwene would go free."

 

 

This is supposed to be from Egwene's point of view. Eqwene would never consider Elaida as the Amyrlin. To her Elaida was a traitor to the Tower, and never deserved the title......Sanderson should have wrote "Elaida would be punished"....not The Amyrlin....

 

It's not as bad as the time that Vegeta referred to Kakarot as "Goku".

[Demiandre]

Toward the end, Vegeta called "Goku" Goku a lot. The more humanity he got, the more he was calling him Goku.

 

For Tallanvor, Morgase was rejecting him at the beginning. Bu then, feeling helpless, after Valda's rape, and with the capture, and the rest, she understood that he cared for her, and she was feeling safe abd comfortable around him. And then it evolved, it grew, to become affection and love. It wasn't like Rand and Elayne "I met him and knew he would be my lover and husband!" Silly. A peasants in a garden....

[T00thbrush]

Then again, just about ANY romance is miles ahead of the Rand/Elayne fiasco But yes, I see what you mean - as I said, it's a personal thing. I guess sometimes Tallanvor is so "sick with love" that it's hard not to see him as needy, which I always thought wasn't a very attractive trait, especially to a woman as strong and experienced as Morgase. Then again that neediness is what differenciates him from Thom or Gareth, so it could very well be argued it's part of why it works.

 

I don't know. Maybe by that stage I was just getting a bit bored about WoT relationship always working out and building up quite quickly to being together forever, getting married, etc. After all, Morgase/Tallanvor isn't instant, yes, but it doesn't take such a long time either (I'm not sure about the chronology, but if the whole series is spread over 2 years so far, it can't have been more than a few months).

 

Maybe my problem is less with Tallanvor and Morgase per see than with the fact I think the series should include a few more break-ups or relationships that are sort of hanging on but without progressing to the "true love forever" phase. It just always struck me as a little bit simplistic and naive (and maybe conservative, to have so many weddings! ) for such an adult epic, with complex plotlines and a rich universe.

[moratcorlm]

Maybe my problem is less with Tallanvor and Morgase per see than with the fact I think the series should include a few more break-ups or relationships that are sort of hanging on but without progressing to the "true love forever" phase.

Actually, that's one of the interesting things about Elayne and Rand's relationship. She got a crush, spent a few days with him, decided to have sex, and now

she's perfectly calmly making contingency plans for his death.

She's still 'in love', but the way she's handling it is a lot more mature than "true love forever". It might go that way, but it very much might not.

[Jon Paul]

Toward the end, Vegeta called "Goku" Goku a lot. The more humanity he got, the more he was calling him Goku.

 

This was the one and only time I have ever heard the Prince of all Saiyans call Kakarot by his earthling name no matter how "humane" Vegeta became. Even in the end, when he acknowledged Kakarot to be the better warrior and even when he accepted Kakarot as a friend, he never called him "Goku".

 

And mind you I am referring to Vegeta referring to Kakarot as "Goku" in his internal monologue at the very beginning of the Namek Saga right after just having his ass kicked on Earth.

[T00thbrush]

Maybe my problem is less with Tallanvor and Morgase per see than with the fact I think the series should include a few more break-ups or relationships that are sort of hanging on but without progressing to the "true love forever" phase.

Actually, that's one of the interesting things about Elayne and Rand's relationship. She got a crush, spent a few days with him, decided to have sex, and now

she's perfectly calmly making contingency plans for his death.

She's still 'in love', but the way she's handling it is a lot more mature than "true love forever". It might go that way, but it very much might not.

 

You make an excellent point. I stand corrected.

I've always felt RJ was trying to sell us Rand/Elayne as "true love forever", which made me cringe. Maybe I was mistaken on that.

[Jon Paul]

[. . .]

 

I'm beginning to believe there has never been love between Rand and Elayne, not even a poorly written one. I believe it's all a weave of the Pattern for the birth of the twins Calian & Shivan who herald the end of an Age. How weird will it be when they're all chilling out in T'A'R after the dust is settled and the Dragon Soul is threatening to send them to their bedrooms :D?

[JordanRutherford]

[. . .]

 

I'm beginning to believe there has never been love between Rand and Elayne, not even a poorly written one. I believe it's all a weave of the Pattern for the birth of the twins Calian & Shivan who herald the end of an Age. How weird will it be when they're all chilling out in T'A'R after the dust is settled and the Dragon Soul is threatening to send them to their bedrooms :D?

 

 

Well.. Damn. That makes sense. Somehow I haven't heard that argument before, but it sure is a stong one. And here I was really hoping Elayne and Rand would actually be something.. heh.

[T00thbrush]

I've always felt the Pattern played a big part in their romance (as well as possibly Elayne being a modern-day equivalent of LTT's Ilyena), but it was never good enough for me until now, as I always assumed RJ was using this as an easy way to justify an otherwise unbelievable "true lover forever" relationship.

 

However, if Rand/Elayne is nothing more than the result of the Pattern + rampaging teenage sex drive... that I can believe and be happy with. The pretense that their "love" is real just needs to be dropped - it's a superficial relationship, period. Then again, maybe we don't need to be told (in-book I mean) it's superficial. It just is. Neither Rand nor Elayne would be too inclined to admit to it being superficial anyway (most people would rather lie to themselves about such things after all )!

[moratcorlm]

Well, Elayne and Rand are certainly lying to themselves at times, but I don't think their POV reactions were too over-the-top, especially considering that Rand's a 21-year-old virgin yokel, and Elayne's several years younger and by her own admission knows very little of men aside from what her mother and Lini told her, and presumably what she observed from her brothers and Gareth Bryne. What sort of hammers the entire thing in is Aviendha and her "You belong to Elayne" refrain from TSR through LOC, "one more tirade on his supposed ill-treatment of Elayne and later another embarrassing lecture meant to convince him Elayne was the perfect woman" after another.

 

I figure it's a primarily sexual thing + ta'veren, or at any rate I like that explanation better than that they are really supposed to be in Twu Wuv and it's just written that badly.