Military Roundup

[Muad Cheade]

two things to keep in mind about the Seanchan: their lands are far larger than the Westlands, and are all nominally under the Seanchan crown, so this isn't like any country in Rand's part of the world - it would be akin to doubling the size of the Westlands (or more) and its population and giving it all to one country. The Westlands are fractured into many different lands, some in pseudo peace and some at war. Second, Seanchan forces often employ soldiers sworn to them from the host countries, so a fair number of people that Ituralde fought when he was fighting his war against the Seanchan were Taraboners and probably Amadician as well. So its not only Seanchan forces you have to deal with.

yes, that's all true (althought I'm not clear on the size of the Seanchan continent with relation to Randlands) but the numbers seem to me to be too big anyway. keep in mind that the Seanchan have only arrived en mass a short time ago (a year ago, perhaps?) Could they really have brought millions of people with them in such a short time? seems very unrealistic to me given the time span, the distance and the available technology. also, because of the assassination of the old empress and the rebellion and civil war back home they no longer can draw on the Seanchan population and forces back on the Seanchan continent. So how many people do they actually have on this side of the ocean and how big is their army? anyone has an estimate?

You mustn't forget about the Hailene and Corene which each brought hundreds of thousands of soldiers, craftsmen, settlers etc to the Westlands. Also, the Seanchan actively recruit from the nations they have conquered.

 

The Seanchan most likely have close to 600,000 soldiers under the command, not including damane. The Thirteenth Depository did a recap of the military forces as of TGS. You can find it here.

Thanks for the link. It's quite interesting. not sure about that 600k total though. Based on Turan told Ituralde it would seem to me that they should have more than that.

 

That link has since been updated to include ToM:

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/military-forces-of-westlands.html

For some reason, I believed the Wolf Guard was 70,000 strong. I wasn't aware it was only 25,000.

[Annia]

I'm going to address this once more and then give up. There is no way in hell that a force that's outnumbered 8 to 1 can win in the manner described.

 

Here are some real life examples of battles fought with overwhelming strength by one side.

 

In the Zulu war, the initial battle was fought by a force of 4100 British and auxilary troops (1600 British, 2500 African troops). They faced a force 20,000 strong. That's only 5-1 odds. The British had much superior technology (equate that with the Asha'men if you will). The result? Complete and utter annihilation. Not a single survivor.

 

We all know about the Battle of Little Big Horn. Custer was outnumbered there at anywhere from a 3-1 to 7-1 odds (historians disagree on the exact number), and he was completely wiped out. Another example of a force with superior technology engaging a force with overwhelming numbers.

 

I could go on about this to endless length, but the numbers are quite frankly ridiculous. Since the RPG is not canon, it has not been verified accurate by Team Jordan, and I've already found major mistakes in it with regards to the defense of Edmond's Field, I think we can safely put aside the supposed numbers at Dumai Wells.

 

As much as we'd like to believe in technology, overwhelming numbers usually wins out against a small force with better technology. I could believe a 2-1 or 3-1 size difference, but not an 8-1 size difference.

Allow me to use another real life example, where the smaller force won/ended up in draw:

 

xD

 

You didn't actually tell them that a good portion of the Russians who died actually froze to death, because the Russian conscripts were not wearing long underwear or winter coats... Tanks weren't at their useful due to heavy snow and the fact that many of the battle grounds were right next to forest where the tanks couldn't go etc.

 

And let's keep in mind that the Finns did actually surrender in the end, because they started to run out of ammo and men.

[Annia]

To be frank, not that many people have the same skill set as the Five Great Captains. That's why they're the Great Captains. Mat and Rand are on their level due to their "borrowed" memories and that's pretty much it. However, Perrin's skill in battle shouldn't be underestimated. He's quite the leader. We've seen that repeatedly. I don't think he and Mat are going to be leading armies to counter the Shadow's thrusts. They will probably by needed to aid Rand for the Strike at Shayol Ghul 2.0.

 

Why would they be all coming with Rand? It seems to me that RJ gave the battle with the DO to Rand. Mat was given a military skill far greater then any of the Great Captains, so it makes sense for him to be leading the AoL.

As for Perrin he got the wolves and T'A'R, so something would probably happen there too.

 

The ta'veren connection makes the boys able to see eachother at longdistance, I dont know if this has been discussed before, but as far as I can recall, none of them have used the ability to do anything useful. RJ would not put something like that into the series just to dismiss it, so it seems to me that Mat, Perrin and Rand are not going to be at the same place when they go to SG.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong tho.

 

 

I think they have to be with Rand due to Min's vision that said that they would have to be together or the light would be swallowed up by darkness. Other people needed to be there too, so that light would win. Rand obviously needs to deal with the Dark One. Mat will be in charge of the tactics and Perrin will make those tactics into reality by leading from the front, because people have such fate in him that they will follow him where he will lead them. I don't see the problem here.

[idiostock]

To be frank, not that many people have the same skill set as the Five Great Captains. That's why they're the Great Captains. Mat and Rand are on their level due to their "borrowed" memories and that's pretty much it. However, Perrin's skill in battle shouldn't be underestimated. He's quite the leader. We've seen that repeatedly. I don't think he and Mat are going to be leading armies to counter the Shadow's thrusts. They will probably by needed to aid Rand for the Strike at Shayol Ghul 2.0.

 

Why would they be all coming with Rand? It seems to me that RJ gave the battle with the DO to Rand. Mat was given a military skill far greater then any of the Great Captains, so it makes sense for him to be leading the AoL.

As for Perrin he got the wolves and T'A'R, so something would probably happen there too.

 

The ta'veren connection makes the boys able to see eachother at longdistance, I dont know if this has been discussed before, but as far as I can recall, none of them have used the ability to do anything useful. RJ would not put something like that into the series just to dismiss it, so it seems to me that Mat, Perrin and Rand are not going to be at the same place when they go to SG.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong tho.

 

 

I think they have to be with Rand due to Min's vision that said that they would have to be together or the light would be swallowed up by darkness. Other people needed to be there too, so that light would win. Rand obviously needs to deal with the Dark One. Mat will be in charge of the tactics and Perrin will make those tactics into reality by leading from the front, because people have such fate in him that they will follow him where he will lead them. I don't see the problem here.

 

I can get behind this, but if Rand is leading a commando channeler fight, Nynaeve will likely ask how Rand thinks the fight is going, he'll view, and say "They're doing what they have to." and move on.

 

If the triumvirate ever talked about it, they could set up T'A'R-esque communiques. And if one of them can't make it to the communique, the other two can see very easily why.

[Muad Cheade]

The visions they see of each other is the Pattern trying to force them together as they were separate for far too long.

[b3arz3rg3r]

To be frank, not that many people have the same skill set as the Five Great Captains. That's why they're the Great Captains. Mat and Rand are on their level due to their "borrowed" memories and that's pretty much it. However, Perrin's skill in battle shouldn't be underestimated. He's quite the leader. We've seen that repeatedly. I don't think he and Mat are going to be leading armies to counter the Shadow's thrusts. They will probably by needed to aid Rand for the Strike at Shayol Ghul 2.0.

 

Why would they be all coming with Rand? It seems to me that RJ gave the battle with the DO to Rand. Mat was given a military skill far greater then any of the Great Captains, so it makes sense for him to be leading the AoL.

As for Perrin he got the wolves and T'A'R, so something would probably happen there too.

 

The ta'veren connection makes the boys able to see eachother at longdistance, I dont know if this has been discussed before, but as far as I can recall, none of them have used the ability to do anything useful. RJ would not put something like that into the series just to dismiss it, so it seems to me that Mat, Perrin and Rand are not going to be at the same place when they go to SG.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong tho.

 

 

I think they have to be with Rand due to Min's vision that said that they would have to be together or the light would be swallowed up by darkness. Other people needed to be there too, so that light would win. Rand obviously needs to deal with the Dark One. Mat will be in charge of the tactics and Perrin will make those tactics into reality by leading from the front, because people have such fate in him that they will follow him where he will lead them. I don't see the problem here.

 

Regarding their roles in the last battle. Mat and Perrin should definitely be at Rand's side when he seals the DO. Mat can help the other generals plan the overall strategy of the battle, how to prepare the battleground and so on, but after that is said and done he has to be in the thick of it to sound the Horn of Valere and at Shayol Ghul a ta'veren will be worth a dozen channelers. Same with Perrin. His role is to be Rand's Bannerman.

[Nooska]

The visions they see of each other is the Pattern trying to force them together as they were separate for far too long.

Quote or reference please?

 

All we have seen is that Mat and Perrin didn't have the vision when they were physically together, but that might just be because the pattern doesn't need to show them the othe rperson from a differen POV since they are there themselves.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

 

Matt all but lays out their structure and battle strats by himself with Bashere barely having a chance to contribute much leaving Bashere almost stunned after and most definitely impressed.

 

Not the way I read it at all. It seemed that Bashere was impressed because Mat was a hayseed with straw in his hair. More along the lines of "That's about right" as opposed to "Genius! I never would have thought of that!"

[solarz]

Randland is approximately the size of the United States.

 

China is pretty much the same size as the US, and has regularly raised armies in the millions during its history. Therefore, I don't think RJ's numbers are off at all.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

Randland is approximately the size of the United States.

 

China is pretty much the same size as the US, and has regularly raised armies in the millions during its history. Therefore, I don't think RJ's numbers are off at all.

 

I don't understand the gnashing of teeth over this point. Unless the numbers are ridiculously off, what difference does it make? It is a fantasy novel after all. Though it is good to know that the numbers are reasonably close.

[XXX]

What is the strength of Egwene's "army" she is gathering to face the Dragon? Tear, Illian and the Aiel have more ties to the Dragon than Aes Sedai so they can be counted on to be on the Dragon's side. Perin's army is with Rand. Egwene will perhaps have the tower guard and perhaps Elayne's Andor/Carhein armies(ironic considering the Dragon presented both to her) but the most powerful force in that, Mat's Band will also break away to support Rand.

 

Aes Sedai setting themselves up or an epic fail at FoM?

[WhiskyJack]

What is the strength of Egwene's "army" she is gathering to face the Dragon? Tear, Illian and the Aiel have more ties to the Dragon than Aes Sedai so they can be counted on to be on the Dragon's side. Perin's army is with Rand. Egwene will perhaps have the tower guard and perhaps Elayne's Andor/Carhein armies(ironic considering the Dragon presented both to her) but the most powerful force in that, Mat's Band will also break away to support Rand.

 

Aes Sedai setting themselves up or an epic fail at FoM?

 

 

Or..she is doing Rand's bidding without even knowing

[Finnssss22]

 

Matt all but lays out their structure and battle strats by himself with Bashere barely having a chance to contribute much leaving Bashere almost stunned after and most definitely impressed.

 

Not the way I read it at all. It seemed that Bashere was impressed because Mat was a hayseed with straw in his hair. More along the lines of "That's about right" as opposed to "Genius! I never would have thought of that!"

 

Really? I mean it was from Rand's PoV. He described it as telling Mat and Bashere what kind of attack he wanted, to which Mat and Bashere then provided the thousands of details needed to carry it out. Mat more than Bashere.

 

Also, The Legion of the Dragon and their unique formation and tactics, is quite assuredly mostly of Mat's conception. The concept itself, occurred to him way back in tSR chptr 37. The only difference in the end, was deciding on massive shields instead of pikes.

Bashere has adjusted their tactics and formations depending on what they were fighting against (vs The Seanchan for example) but still holds them within Mat's original guidelines.

No, I believe Bashere was more than just merely impressed with Mat

[Ingtar Shinowa]

 

Matt all but lays out their structure and battle strats by himself with Bashere barely having a chance to contribute much leaving Bashere almost stunned after and most definitely impressed.

 

Not the way I read it at all. It seemed that Bashere was impressed because Mat was a hayseed with straw in his hair. More along the lines of "That's about right" as opposed to "Genius! I never would have thought of that!"

 

Really? I mean it was from Rand's PoV. He described it as telling Mat and Bashere what kind of attack he wanted, to which Mat and Bashere then provided the thousands of details needed to carry it out. Mat more than Bashere.

 

Also, The Legion of the Dragon and their unique formation and tactics, is quite assuredly mostly of Mat's conception. The concept itself, occurred to him way back in tSR chptr 37. The only difference in the end, was deciding on massive shields instead of pikes.

Bashere has adjusted their tactics and formations depending on what they were fighting against (vs The Seanchan for example) but still holds them within Mat's original guidelines.

No, I believe Bashere was more than just merely impressed with Mat

 

I think that is much more fanon than canon. More than anything, what I got from that section is that at this part of the story Mat is still a craven yellow belly. I stand by my interpretation of Bashere's reaction.

 

edit: I'm clearly thinking of a different passage. Mine is from tFoH. Not sure where yours is from. My bad.

[Finnssss22]

I think that is much more fanon than canon. More than anything, what I got from that section is that at this part of the story Mat is still a craven yellow belly. I stand by my interpretation of Bashere's reaction.

 

edit: I'm clearly thinking of a different passage. Mine is from tFoH. Not sure where yours is from. My bad.

 

 

LoC chptr 1, a little bit after Rand finishes his sparring vs multiple opponents and Bashere throws the knife at him. Just before Taim's arrival.

 

I'm actually not even sure what passage from tFoH you are referring to? Bashere doesn't even meet Rand till the very end of the book. There is no mention of the Legion, Bashere meeting Mat or the plan for Illian until the passage I quoted.

[Ingtar Shinowa]

I think that is much more fanon than canon. More than anything, what I got from that section is that at this part of the story Mat is still a craven yellow belly. I stand by my interpretation of Bashere's reaction.

 

edit: I'm clearly thinking of a different passage. Mine is from tFoH. Not sure where yours is from. My bad.

 

 

LoC chptr 1, a little bit after Rand finishes his sparring vs multiple opponents and Bashere throws the knife at him. Just before Taim's arrival.

 

I'm actually not even sure what passage from tFoH you are referring to? Bashere doesn't even meet Rand till the very end of the book. There is no mention of the Legion, Bashere meeting Mat or the plan for Illian until the passage I quoted.

 

First, thanks! We be reading that over shortly.

 

Second, yep, you're correct. The scene I was thinking of didn't have Bashere in it at all. It was the scene prior to the battle with the Shaido, when Mat was in the tent, absently reviewing the maps and started going on about battle plans with Asmo. Cut me some slack, my memory isn't what it should be and I've been reading this damn series for over twenty years!

 

edit: chapter 42 FoH, speaking with Lan and Asmo.

[Finnssss22]

I think that is much more fanon than canon. More than anything, what I got from that section is that at this part of the story Mat is still a craven yellow belly. I stand by my interpretation of Bashere's reaction.

 

edit: I'm clearly thinking of a different passage. Mine is from tFoH. Not sure where yours is from. My bad.

 

 

LoC chptr 1, a little bit after Rand finishes his sparring vs multiple opponents and Bashere throws the knife at him. Just before Taim's arrival.

 

I'm actually not even sure what passage from tFoH you are referring to? Bashere doesn't even meet Rand till the very end of the book. There is no mention of the Legion, Bashere meeting Mat or the plan for Illian until the passage I quoted.

 

First, thanks! We be reading that over shortly.

 

Second, yep, you're correct. The scene I was thinking of didn't have Bashere in it at all. It was the scene prior to the battle with the Shaido, when Mat was in the tent, absently reviewing the maps and started going on about battle plans with Asmo. Cut me some slack, my memory isn't what it should be and I've been reading this damn series for over twenty years!

 

edit: chapter 42 FoH, speaking with Lan and Asmo.

 

 

I hear ya.

Been reading the series almost 20 years myself and sometimes you get an impression in your mind from 15 years ago that turns out wrong or exaggerated and it can be a bit of a shock to the system.

Been there, trust me