Discuss Lan/Defense of the Blight Border

[babuada]

I doubt Lan would die. I agree to Darth Krewl that he is not hero. But I think he would grow to become a real hero in the Last Book. Nynaeve will see to that.

[Ataxia]

Seriously how can you use Mat and Thoms rescue or Moiraine against Lan? The bond was severed and he thought she was dead. No one else knew that she was alive. Why? Because the 3 to rescue her had to be specific. Why do you think Thom didnt tell Lan that she was alive? Because he would've gotten her killed. Thom, Mat, and a man she didnt know. There was still a chance that they died. You dont think Lan would have tried to rescue her? Come on.

[sleepinghour]

The "potential to murder innocents" that I had thought of was the scene in Jarra in TDR when Perrin goes to Moir's room and tells her that Simmian knows she is AS, and Lan's first reaction is to tense as though ready to do violence and only stands down when Moir tells him "No". Because of that scene and her comment in it to Perrin that her answer "may not always be 'No'" really made me wonder about the time that we have no books to reference. Almost 20 years pass between tNS and TEoTW, so how many times during those 2 decades was her response "yes" instead.

"Simion knows you're Aes Sedai. He wants you to Heal his brother Noam of some sickness. If I hadn't talked to him, he would never have worked up nerve enough to ask, but he might have started talking among his friends."

Lan caught Moiraine's eye, and for a moment they stared at one another. The Warder had the air about him of a wolf about to leap. Finally, Moiraine shook her head. “No," she said.

"As you wish. It is your decision." Lan sounded as if he thought she had made the wrong one, but the tension left him.

Perrin stared at them. "You were thinking of... Simion couldn't tell anyone if he were dead, could he?"

"He will not die by my actions," Moiraine said. "But I cannot, and will not, promise that it will always be so. We must find Rand, and I will not fail in that. Is that spoken plainly enough for you?" Caught in her gaze, Perrin could make no answer.

-TDR

If Simion had told others about Moiraine, it could have ended with a mob trying to chase her out of town. But at that point Simion hadn't done anything wrong.

 

Not to absolve Lan in any way, but if Lan murdered innocents, it was on Moiraine's order or with her consent. That's pretty clear from this scene ("It is your decision"). So if you want to blame Lan for this, Moiraine should be included too. Certainly they don't enjoy killing people, but they believe the ends justify the means. They're not heroes in the traditional sense.

 

It bears pointing out that Lan does not to kill Byar (who attacked him with an axe) in TEotW and only knocks him unconscious. He's also unwilling to obey Moiraine's orders to leave Nynaeve behind with the Whitecloaks -- though it's hard to say whether it was because Lan thought it was wrong or because he already had feelings for Nynaeve at that point. Maybe a bit of both.

[Jon Paul]

I don't think Lan set of with the intention of charging by himself into the Trollocs. I'm sure he intended to link up with the meagre forces at Fal Dara for the last defence that they would offer.

 

Does anyone else see the irony in regards to Lan?

 

All the main characters from the first book were forced into positions of authority. They've all since accepted, than embraced their respective positions. Lan, however, although being twice the age of any of them doesn't accept what he is until the 13th book and only right before marching 12,000 men on a suicide mission. He finally accepts leadership and his first action is to ensure the death of him and all his men. Now it's up to Rand and Nynaeve to pull his ass out of the fire.

 

Lan doesn't have any problems with leading men. After all he was a commander during the Aiel War. What he has simply refused to do is lead men under the banner of the Golden Crane. Lan's case is completely different to that which faces Rand or Mat. Whether it be Rand trying to figure out the economy of Tear or Mat trying to find the wages for his soldiers in games of dice, Lan simply refuses to lead men to their death based on a memory.

 

Lan's tale has not been about his "coming of age" and "accepting leadership". It's been about Lan accepting that his war with the Shadow is not a private affair. It's about accepting his war is the same war as Moiraine's.

[Darth Krewl]

Seriously how can you use Mat and Thoms rescue or Moiraine against Lan? The bond was severed and he thought she was dead. No one else knew that she was alive. Why? Because the 3 to rescue her had to be specific. Why do you think Thom didnt tell Lan that she was alive? Because he would've gotten her killed. Thom, Mat, and a man she didnt know. There was still a chance that they died. You dont think Lan would have tried to rescue her? Come on.

 

hehehe...I knew someone was gonna bring out the bond as a feeble excuse to render my point moot.

 

Simple, Ataxia...ever heard of a little concept known as HONOR?

 

Bond or no bond, the man was sworn to defend Moiraine until she died. Well, technically speaking, she wasn't dead, was she? So in my book, he failed to uphold his honor MISERABLY.

 

Mat wasn't bonded to her. Thom wasn't bonded to her. And certainly, Noal/Jain wasn't bonded to her. Did that stop them?

 

3 men had to rescue Moiraine, yes. Mat had to be one, Thom had to be another. Seems to me like Lan was the perfect choice for the third man, for reasons more than obvious. At least if I was Thom or Mat, that's the first thought that would've crossed my mind.

 

But, of course, Lord Mandragoran was unavailable at the time, because he had finally decided to fulfill that death wish of his and had marched to meet his doom at the Blight. Hence, I've no choice but to find me another.

 

Had Lan stuck around his inner circle like he should have, then he would have learned that Moiraine was alive and I'm 100% positive that he would have been the third man, instead of Noal/Jain. But he wasn't there anymore and so, he didn't know. Either way, he failed Moiraine.

 

Again, this is just my personal take on the character and no one's gonna change that. Just like I'm sure that no one will change your personal take on Lan. But, if you want to debate whether the character's a hero or not, whether Rand is compromising his whole operation to save just one man, then I'm open to debate. Because that's what I have been sustaining all along and not who likes or dislikes this fictional man on a personal basis.

[anotherfingolfin]

Seriously how can you use Mat and Thoms rescue or Moiraine against Lan? The bond was severed and he thought she was dead. No one else knew that she was alive. Why? Because the 3 to rescue her had to be specific. Why do you think Thom didnt tell Lan that she was alive? Because he would've gotten her killed. Thom, Mat, and a man she didnt know. There was still a chance that they died. You dont think Lan would have tried to rescue her? Come on.

 

But, of course, Lord Mandragoran was unavailable at the time, because he had finally decided to fulfill that death wish of his and had marched to meet his doom at the Blight. Hence, I've no choice but to find me another.

 

Had Lan stuck around his inner circle like he should have, then he would have learned that Moiraine was alive and I'm 100% positive that he would have been the third man, instead of Noal/Jain. But he wasn't there anymore and so, he didn't know. Either way, he failed Moiraine.

 

 

i think the point about the third person having to be a man she DIDN'T KNOW kind of excludes Lan. it's pretty self-explenatory.

 

I think Lan would have jumped at the chance of rescuing her, but umm... are you seriously trying to fault him for NOT KNOWING? because really, it's his fault he was not informed. (even thought this point is rendered moot, given that it could NOT be him).

[Darth Krewl]

But, of course, Lord Mandragoran was unavailable at the time, because he had finally decided to fulfill that death wish of his and had marched to meet his doom at the Blight. Hence, I've no choice but to find me another.

 

Had Lan stuck around his inner circle like he should have, then he would have learned that Moiraine was alive and I'm 100% positive that he would have been the third man, instead of Noal/Jain. But he wasn't there anymore and so, he didn't know. Either way, he failed Moiraine.

 

 

i think the point about the third person having to be a man she DIDN'T KNOW kind of excludes Lan. it's pretty self-explenatory.

 

I think Lan would have jumped at the chance of rescuing her, but umm... are you seriously trying to fault him for NOT KNOWING? because really, it's his fault he was not informed. (even thought this point is rendered moot, given that it could NOT be him).

 

I'm blaming Lan for bailing out on his friends and allies at the eleventh hour, to pursue the death wish he's had since I first met this character in tEotW. I'm blaming him for putting a selfish, personal wish above everything else, including his wife, whom he left in such a painful position that she'd have to beg Rand for help, regardless on how this may (may not) compromise the forces of the Light and their strategies in the face of the Last Battle, to save one single man.

 

As for Lan not knowing about Moiraine (in addition to Rand, who also believes her dead, though that may have changed now that he's seen Lanfear, of course) I blame that on the lack of communication skills found in most TWoT characters. And I know I'm not alone when I say that these people never talk w/each other.

 

Now, as for why he couldn't be the third man, frankly, to me that's Jordan plotting a storyline a certain way to set something up, in this case, Noal's revelation as Jain and his going out in a blaze of glory. Can't think of any other reason why Lan shouldn't have been the third man. But, if there is another justifiable reason, I'd like to know, 'cause I haven't found it myself.

 

Either way, I'm not saying Lan wouldn't have gone into the Tower of Ghenjei immediately. I don't question his loyalty to Moiraine, bond or no bond. What I'm saying is that, whether he could do it or not, the man was unavailable at the time and couldn't be informed that his former friend and partner of 20 yrs. was alive and kicking. What I question is the reason why he wasn't available, not only for that, but for anything else that could be helpful to his friends and allies, only because the guy can't get over the past and move on.

 

My whole point here has been to expose my views on why I don't view him as a hero and why I feel Rand shouldn't put much at risk to save one man who got himself in a huge hole willingly, no matter how painful that may be to the man's wife or anyone else, for that matter. These people are supposed to be at war; the biggest war in the history of their world and therefore, casualties are to be expected. Risking more than is needed to get one single man out of a hot spot, when nobody asked him to be there but himself, is frankly, not a sound military decision and that's one casualty that, as the commander in chief, you're not responsible for.

 

I know that fans of the character will raise up in arms (like Ataxia has done twice already) but that doesn't change these facts.

[anotherfingolfin]

But, of course, Lord Mandragoran was unavailable at the time, because he had finally decided to fulfill that death wish of his and had marched to meet his doom at the Blight. Hence, I've no choice but to find me another.

 

Had Lan stuck around his inner circle like he should have, then he would have learned that Moiraine was alive and I'm 100% positive that he would have been the third man, instead of Noal/Jain. But he wasn't there anymore and so, he didn't know. Either way, he failed Moiraine.

 

 

i think the point about the third person having to be a man she DIDN'T KNOW kind of excludes Lan. it's pretty self-explenatory.

 

I think Lan would have jumped at the chance of rescuing her, but umm... are you seriously trying to fault him for NOT KNOWING? because really, it's his fault he was not informed. (even thought this point is rendered moot, given that it could NOT be him).

 

I'm blaming Lan for bailing out on his friends and allies at the eleventh hour, to pursue the death wish he's had since I first met this character in tEotW. I'm blaming him for putting a selfish, personal wish above everything else, including his wife, whom he left in such a painful position that she'd have to beg Rand for help, regardless on how this may (may not) compromise the forces of the Light and their strategies in the face of the Last Battle, to save one single man.

 

As for Lan not knowing about Moiraine (in addition to Rand, who also believes her dead, though that may have changed now that he's seen Lanfear, of course) I blame that on the lack of communication skills found in most TWoT characters. And I know I'm not alone when I say that these people never talk w/each other.

 

Now, as for why he couldn't be the third man, frankly, to me that's Jordan plotting a storyline a certain way to set something up, in this case, Noal's revelation as Jain and his going out in a blaze of glory. Can't think of any other reason why Lan shouldn't have been the third man. But, if there is another justifiable reason, I'd like to know, 'cause I haven't found it myself.

 

Either way, I'm not saying Lan wouldn't have gone into the Tower of Ghenjei immediately. I don't question his loyalty to Moiraine, bond or no bond. What I'm saying is that, whether he could do it or not, the man was unavailable at the time and couldn't be informed that his former friend and partner of 20 yrs. was alive and kicking. What I question is the reason why he wasn't available, not only for that, but for anything else that could be helpful to his friends and allies, only because the guy can't get over the past and move on.

 

My whole point here has been to expose my views on why I don't view him as a hero and why I feel Rand shouldn't put much at risk to save one man who got himself in a huge hole willingly, no matter how painful that may be to the man's wife or anyone else, for that matter. These people are supposed to be at war; the biggest war in the history of their world and therefore, casualties are to be expected. Risking more than is needed to get one single man out of a hot spot, when nobody asked him to be there but himself, is frankly, not a sound military decision and that's one casualty that, as the commander in chief, you're not responsible for.

 

I know that fans of the character will raise up in arms (like Ataxia has done twice already) but that doesn't change these facts.

 

the scope of my argument was ONLY the points i argued, and not any bigger picture stuff. also, you can't minimise the fact that it's "Jordan plotting a storyline a certain way to set something up," as well, it's his story, and this particular aspect of the plot is not inconsistent with anything else.

 

"I'm blaming him for putting a selfish, personal wish above everything else, including his wife, whom he left in such a painful position"

you absolutely cannot hold against him Nynaeve's emotions. you just can not. she KNEW what she was getting into. he was very clear about it, and discouraged her for those very reasons.

 

frankly, i initially questioned his decision to go to the borderlands, but why not? i don't think we are supposed to believe Rand knows all, and the only way forward is to wait for him to make decisions for you. Lan was underused in the South, and his decision to go fight in the north is not without merit, in itself. going to shore up the war effort at the points where fighting is likely to be had in greatest intensity, doesn't sound bad to me. (ok, his suicidal tendency and the seeming lack of strategic/tactical guile in the epilogue, is a whole other point).

 

that said, i don't think Lan has been really heroic ever. he has certainly come across as badass, but that is not the same thing. he is cast in the reluctant hero mould, except that i think he is still in the reluctant phase, and needs a Crowning Moment of Awesome, to achieve the hero part.

[DemandredFO]

Darth Krewl, there's a quote from a game of thrones; You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move.

A Game of Thrones. Example from the series the tinkers are being honorable as they see by following TWotLeaf, does that make Arams parents or any of the others the Trollocs killed any less dead. Rand, Mat, borderlanders and who knows who else, they're honorable by their code but if Toun hadn't been there, would that have made mat any less dead in Matteran or wherever? Even if Lan had know about Moiraine, suicidal honor is not honor.

[babuada]

that said, i don't think Lan has been really heroic ever. he has certainly come across as badass, but that is not the same thing. he is cast in the reluctant hero mould, except that i think he is still in the reluctant phase, and needs a Crowning Moment of Awesome, to achieve the hero part.

I agree. You must understand that although he is much older, he never got a chance to work out his issues himself. Moir forced him to abandon his suicidal goal by bonding him. Then he went into warder's rage and Myrele saved him for sometime. I believe he would eventually be able to work out his issue and prove to be a valuable commander for Light albait at the last moment.

As for his rescue by Rand, he considers Lan as a friend and Nynaeve even a closer friend. He would try everything in his power to save him, at least help him. Sounds selfish :) Well, he saved The Wolf at Maradon. You would say it was his responsibility blah blah blah. But that was not the reason he gave. He saved them and Maradon because they were fighting for Light. Will he try to save everybody? Of course not. But he would save Lan because he is fighting for Light.

[Darth Krewl]

the scope of my argument was ONLY the points i argued, and not any bigger picture stuff. also, you can't minimise the fact that it's "Jordan plotting a storyline a certain way to set something up," as well, it's his story, and this particular aspect of the plot is not inconsistent with anything else.

 

Fair enough. I was just replying to Ataxia, who was questioning that point about Lan not rescuing Moiraine, which I only used as one of many other points to lend support to my argument that, IMO, Lan is not a hero.

 

As for Jordan's reasons, of course this was his story and he could do with it as he pleased. It's up to the reader to see if you agree with the direction he chose for his story and characters or not. I never questioned that, much less did I call it inconsistent.

 

All I said was that, to my understanding, there's no reason in-universe, that would prevent Lan from being the third man in Mat's party. I clearly said that I haven't read anything to indicate this and that if there was something along those lines, I would like to know.

 

"I'm blaming him for putting a selfish, personal wish above everything else, including his wife, whom he left in such a painful position"

you absolutely cannot hold against him Nynaeve's emotions. you just can not. she KNEW what she was getting into. he was very clear about it, and discouraged her for those very reasons.

 

Now, where do you get from my quote that I'm holding anything against Nynaeve? Of course I understand how she feels. That's precisely my point, that it's Lan who's leaving her behind and that she'd want to help him at all costs.

 

Maybe it's my favorite story of all times - Star Wars - that has a strong influence on me here. Assuming that you've watched those films, I'd like to use an example from Episode II to illustrate my point.

 

When Padmé Amidala falls on the sands of Geonosis and Anakin Skywalker desperately wants to go back and save the woman he loves, Obi-Wan Kenobi is very clear, "we can capture Count Dooku right now and end this war. We can't go back. What do you think Padmé would do in your place?" I couldn't agree more with Master Kenobi.

 

In other words, I see Rand in Obi-Wan's role here and Nynaeve in Anakin's. Except that, since Nynaeve has sworn no Jedi-like oaths against personal attachment, I wouldn't go as far as to forbid her from going personally to her husband's aid. Again, I just wouldn't compromise any of my resources to save one man, when I'll have need of them all for the Last Battle.

 

frankly, i initially questioned his decision to go to the borderlands, but why not? i don't think we are supposed to believe Rand knows all, and the only way forward is to wait for him to make decisions for you. Lan was underused in the South, and his decision to go fight in the north is not without merit, in itself. going to shore up the war effort at the points where fighting is likely to be had in greatest intensity, doesn't sound bad to me. (ok, his suicidal tendency and the seeming lack of strategic/tactical guile in the epilogue, is a whole other point).

 

Well, personally, I've never questioned Lan's decision to seek vengeance for his fallen nation. In fact, I understand the man. But I do agree that his fight at the border can be of use to the forces of the Light. It could be very useful in fact. And I also agree that his lack of a sound plan and suicidal tendencies complicate things in every possible way.

 

That's precisely why I feel that the man's being way too selfish (and nothing like a hero) by letting his friends down at the eleventh hour (let's face it, he could've been very useful if he had a plan and gotten his wish at the same time) and by compromising his allies, because naturally, his wife will go out of her way in an effort to save him at all costs. Though, Nynaeve did know what she was getting into when she married Lan, as you've wisely noted, so to me, her crying foul at this point is not valid. Maybe I'm being too Galad-like here lol, but to me, people of honor stand by their word, come hell or high water.

 

that said, i don't think Lan has been really heroic ever. he has certainly come across as badass, but that is not the same thing. he is cast in the reluctant hero mould, except that i think he is still in the reluctant phase, and needs a Crowning Moment of Awesome, to achieve the hero part.

 

Oh yes, Lan's badass. IMO, in a Bruce Willis in Die Hard kind of way. An antihero, but no a hero. As for the Crowning Moment, that's precisely how this whole thing got started in the first place lol! I said that I find Lan's arc too similar to Aragorn's in LotR and that I wish to see it headed in another, more original direction. But my point was that, IMO, Lan, Egwene and a few other characters in WoT are no heroes, despite being enemies of the Shadow, based on their thoughts, words and actions.

 

Darth Krewl, there's a quote from a game of thrones; You wear your honor like a suit of armor, Stark. You think it keeps you safe but all it does is weigh you down and make it hard for you to move.

A Game of Thrones. Example from the series the tinkers are being honorable as they see by following TWotLeaf, does that make Arams parents or any of the others the Trollocs killed any less dead. Rand, Mat, borderlanders and who knows who else, they're honorable by their code but if Toun hadn't been there, would that have made mat any less dead in Matteran or wherever? Even if Lan had know about Moiraine, suicidal honor is not honor.

 

Not sure what you're trying to say here, FO, but isn't Lan's honorable last stand for a long lost kingdom suicidal? Isn't that what has led the guy to put himself in such a lousy position at this point in the story, to begin with?

 

So, if you're saying that Lan would be stupider to go in to save Moiraine than to go die fighting wild hordes of Trollocs in the Blight, I'd reconsider if I were you, 'cause with all due respect, that doesn't make any sense to me.

 

For the record, I happen to like ASoIaF, too and Ned Stark's one of my favorite characters in Martin's series. But, since this isn't westeros.org, I don't think that we should be debating Ned's actions and fate here. Suffice to say that Ned does qualify as a hero in my book, while Lan doesn't.

[Jon Paul]

As for his rescue by Rand, he considers Lan as a friend and Nynaeve even a closer friend.

 

I actually think Rand considers Lan more than just a friend. Lan has been pretty much a father to Rand through crucial moments of Rand's life.

[Jon Paul]

[. . .]

 

What the hell are you talking about?

 

Everyone thought Mo' was dead up until Thom opened his letter and even then only four people knew: Thom, Mat, Farstrider and Olver. How was Lan to find out regardless of whether he was still with Rand and Nyn' or not? He has no failed to uphold his honour and his vows. Everyone thought Mo' was dead and there was strong evidence to support that fact.. the snapping of the bond for a start.

[Darth Krewl]

I agree. You must understand that although he is much older, he never got a chance to work out his issues himself. Moir forced him to abandon his suicidal goal by bonding him. Then he went into warder's rage and Myrele saved him for sometime. I believe he would eventually be able to work out his issue and prove to be a valuable commander for Light albait at the last moment.

 

Exactly. These are my feelings concerning Lan 100%. You nailed it, Bab.

 

As for his rescue by Rand, he considers Lan as a friend and Nynaeve even a closer friend. He would try everything in his power to save him, at least help him. Sounds selfish :) Well, he saved The Wolf at Maradon. You would say it was his responsibility blah blah blah. But that was not the reason he gave. He saved them and Maradon because they were fighting for Light. Will he try to save everybody? Of course not. But he would save Lan because he is fighting for Light.

 

I understand Rand's feelings for Lan as a friend and even a mentor. But still, my point is that the Last Battle is no time to let your personal feelings get in the way of sound, rational decisions. What is the fate of one man who marched to "certain" death willingly, next to the fate of the whole world? As for Lan fighting for the Light, I wouldn't debate that, but the truth is that the guy's fighting to avenge the memory of Malkier. So, IMO, he's doing it for selfish reasons. Because fighting for the Light per se, would mean leaving personal feelings behind and doing what is requested of you. Lan's last stand may be useful to the Light (he could even strike a grievous blow to the Shadow if he were to win at Tarwin's Gap) but would that be for the sake of all or to avenge his fallen kingdom?

 

To me that is a huge difference.

 

 

[. . .]

 

What the hell are you talking about?

 

Everyone thought Mo' was dead up until Thom opened his letter and even then only four people knew: Thom, Mat, Farstrider and Olver. How was Lan to find out regardless of whether he was still with Rand and Nyn' or not? He has no failed to uphold his honour and his vows. Everyone thought Mo' was dead and there was strong evidence to support that fact.. the snapping of the bond for a start.

 

Um...IDK, didn't Lan give his email or cell number to all his friends?

 

Now seriously, Traveling is a mean of communication that we don't even have in real life. And it certainly strikes me as a much better and more effective way of sending a message than an email or phone call. So, somebody could've traveled to Lan (the same way that we all suspect Rand and Nynaeve will to rescue him) and told him about Moiraine not being dead. After all, it's not as if Thom just found out last night, is it?

 

So, there you go...there's been plenty of time to share the great news with Lan (I'm assuming that, like me, you'd consider this to be great news to him, of course).

[anotherfingolfin]

"I'm blaming him for putting a selfish, personal wish above everything else, including his wife, whom he left in such a painful position"

you absolutely cannot hold against him Nynaeve's emotions. you just can not. she KNEW what she was getting into. he was very clear about it, and discouraged her for those very reasons.

 

Now, where do you get from my quote that I'm holding anything against Nynaeve? Of course I understand how she feels. That's precisely my point, that it's Lan who's leaving her behind and that she'd want to help him at all costs.

 

my bad, for not typing that clearly. what i meant to say is that, as Nyn knew what she was getting into, and he pretty much warned her of it, you cannot use her emotional state as a indicator of Lan's selfishness. yeah she is upset etc, but she had been warned he would do something like this. he cannot be called selfish on that particular count.

[Darth Krewl]

my bad, for not typing that clearly. what i meant to say is that, as Nyn knew what she was getting into, and he pretty much warned her of it, you cannot use her emotional state as a indicator of Lan's selfishness. yeah she is upset etc, but she had been warned he would do something like this. he cannot be called selfish on that particular count.

 

Oh, okay. Yeah, now I see your point. And I agree 100%.

 

Love does make people change their plans, sometimes, life changing plans. So, I just thought that Lan's love for Nynaeve could have helped him change his mind in this sense. And that's why I feel he's being selfish.

 

You have to be very selfish and insensitive to leave behind someone who loves you so much and cause her so much grief. I for one, wouldn't do it to my wife, for instance. So that's why it strikes me as selfish and insensitive from Lan.

[sleepinghour]

Rand is not sending aid to Tarwin's Gap solely for Lan's sake. When Lan arrives there in the ToM epilogue, he estimates there are at least 100,000 Trollocs on the other side that would eventually have invaded Shienar. Rand is not only saving Lan, but Shienar as well.

 

While Lan and his army will barely make a dent in the Trolloc hordes, they see it as their duty to be there and fight even when there's no hope of winning. After all, it's what Lan's parents did--they knew Malkier was lost yet refused to go down without a fight. Even Lan's mother stayed behind instead of following her infant son to safety. (I always thought that was idiotic...el'Leanna's presence made no difference to the battle, but would have made all the difference in the world to her son growing up.)

 

I think Lan made a stupid decision and should have waited for backup, but he is motivated by his oaths and identity as a Malkieri. He didn't want to just sit back and wait for backup when he had no assurance it would arrive. In KoD, Rand was only talking about dealing with the Seanchan and the Borderlander army was making no move to leave Far Madding.

 

Even if Lan hadn't gone and the Borderlander army stayed at home instead of going to Far Madding, Rand would've still needed to save Shienar from being overrun. The Borderlander army of 200,000 men won't be nearly enough to save all Borderland countries when Tarwin's Gap alone houses 100,000+ Trollocs and scores more are being brought through Portal Stones.

[Ataxia]

Traveling is good for that...traveling. In terms of communication, I wouldnt consider it better then a cellphone because of numerous reasons. You have to know where the person is, you have to sit in the same location studying a map for a certain amount of time, and you have the chance of cutting someone in half. A cellphone is instant but traveling really isnt. Unless you have shitty service like I do

-_-

..Back on the topic..

 

Do you really think Thom would risk her life by telling Lan about her captivity? There is nothing good that would come out of telling Lan that she lives. Even if hes told, he'd also have to be told there's nothing he can do, and theres a chance that the rescue still fail. Do you really see any good coming out of that? I dont.

 

I can see your side about the anti-hero thing, but I think your point about Moir is completely irrelevant.

[Darth Krewl]

Rand is not sending aid to Tarwin's Gap solely for Lan's sake. When Lan arrives there in the ToM epilogue, he estimates there are at least 100,000 Trollocs on the other side that would eventually have invaded Shienar. Rand is not only saving Lan, but Shienar as well.

 

Now, this does make all the sense in the world. Saving an entire nation from potential invasion as opposed to saving one man out of personal reasons is beyond argument, IMO. And the rest of your post makes sense to me, also.

 

Traveling is good for that...traveling. In terms of communication, I wouldnt consider it better then a cellphone because of numerous reasons. You have to know where the person is, you have to sit in the same location studying a map for a certain amount of time, and you have the chance of cutting someone in half. A cellphone is instant but traveling really isnt. Unless you have shitty service like I do

-_-

..Back on the topic..

 

Do you really think Thom would risk her life by telling Lan about her captivity? There is nothing good that would come out of telling Lan that she lives. Even if hes told, he'd also have to be told there's nothing he can do, and theres a chance that the rescue still fail. Do you really see any good coming out of that? I dont.

 

I can see your side about the anti-hero thing, but I think your point about Moir is completely irrelevant.

 

Yup, I know the laws of Traveling. But, truth be told, Nynaeve was able to reach many Malkieri to get them to join Lan, so Lan could've been located as well, should the need arise for it.

 

As for Thom risking Moiraine's life, I honestly don't know about that. All I know is that only three people could come to Moiraine's aid and that more parties would compromise the rescue effort. I've already said, twice, that I fail to find any reason for that, other than Jordan moving this particular thread in a certain direction, for the sake of the plot, his story or some other reason known only to him.

 

To be totally honest, if I had found some evidence in the books forbidding Lan from being the third party in Moiraine's rescue for some reason, then I'd understand how this would compromise the rescue. But I can't recall anything of that kind. So in that sense, unless there's some explanation in the books that I missed, this would be based on personal interpretation and that may be were we're disagreeing.

 

But you're right. Perhaps this is irrelevant in the overall sense of things. Now to make this perfectly clear, it's not about liking or disliking Lan. Personally, I just don't view him as a hero and I was just stating my reasons for that.

[DemandredFO]

Lan's decision is idiotic, for being older than all the others, he is seemingly the most immature of the lot barring. He had to be forced by a woman half his age who isn't even Malkeri to do his duty; at least Al'Akir and the Malkeri saved the last king. The borderlands are destroyed, what will Lan accomplish with 12,000 non-chanellers against 100,000+ Trollocs. Even they delay them, if Lan is smart he knows that other armies will be breaking through elsewhere. What he needed to do was raise the golden crane at world's end, gather an army and do some good with it, rather than die for nothing. If a Foresaken is there, he or she could kill the majority without breaking a sweat and leave the rest for the trollocs.

Darth Krewl, I was merely pointing out that even had he known of Moiraine he should go after her and as this post states, I agree about his charge suicide. Honor or not, if no help comes, he'll still be honorably dead having accomplished nothing and Nyneave will feel the pain of his loss forever.

[Orderofolde]

The thing is, weren't the odds against the Borderlanders in the battle at Tarwin's Gap in TEotW pretty terrible too, until Rand showed up and zapped all the Trollocs? It seems like fighting at Tarwin's Gap against incredible odds is just what the Borderlanders have been doing for centuries.

 

Presumably, the Gap is also pretty favorable terrain for defenders, which may negate a lot of the advantage the Trollocs gain from numbers anyway. It may not be as ridiculous a stand as it sounds just based on the size of the forces.

 

This.

 

Tarwin's gap is a gap. A mountain pass, and a reasonably wide/flat one. Now, the borderlanders have excellent heavy cavalry. The Trollocs are heavy foot, low on pikes but high on numbers/individual size. When heavy cavalry face heavy foot on flat terrain with cliff/mountain borders, you charge. There's not a heck of a lot else you can do. If you stand your ground, the enemy will charge you giving them the advantage in momentum while negating the mobility and strength of your heavy horsemen. An army like the band of the red hand, heavy on pikes and crossbows, could stand their ground and hold, but when you have an army of heavy cavalry your only real option is all out charge.

A full on charge of heavy cavalry will inflict the most damage of any of the tactics available to Lan. As this is a gap, it is likely that the front lines will be about 1000 trollocs wide. This means that Lan's forces will be able to hold the gap, by charging, pulling back, reforming and charging again in a rotating fashion (first 2000 charge, pull back and reform as the next 2000 charge and so on). The gap will prevent the trollocs from really benefiting from their overwhelming numbers, and allow the humans to fight for a good day or so before being completely overwhelmed.

Of course, the wider the gap, the worse the situation for the light. Does anyone know how wide Tarwin's gap is?

You are talking about a Wheel, with about 2000 in each spoke coming round to hit. Sorry to say, 2000 will be overwhelmed. The best thing to do is put pike up front laminated with crossbowmen and archers in the rear. Lan doesn't have this, so next best option is to charge and fill up the narrowest part of the gap and hold there. If he can do it, he can hold all the live-long day. The Trollocs will bunch up and their numbers won't count for squat. Lan has several riders with horsebows, which will help if they can organize. Of course, common or rather period-specific battle tactics go out the window if the Shadow has channelers there, or even if they some to the aid of Lan. A dozen channelers casting Death Gates and Blossoms of Fire in the narrower part of the Gap? Pull up a lawnchair and watch some awesome!

[aaron hranek]

Rand is not sending aid to Tarwin's Gap solely for Lan's sake. When Lan arrives there in the ToM epilogue, he estimates there are at least 100,000 Trollocs on the other side that would eventually have invaded Shienar. Rand is not only saving Lan, but Shienar as well.

 

Now, this does make all the sense in the world. Saving an entire nation from potential invasion as opposed to saving one man out of personal reasons is beyond argument, IMO. And the rest of your post makes sense to me, also.

 

Traveling is good for that...traveling. In terms of communication, I wouldnt consider it better then a cellphone because of numerous reasons. You have to know where the person is, you have to sit in the same location studying a map for a certain amount of time, and you have the chance of cutting someone in half. A cellphone is instant but traveling really isnt. Unless you have shitty service like I do

-_-

..Back on the topic..

 

Do you really think Thom would risk her life by telling Lan about her captivity? There is nothing good that would come out of telling Lan that she lives. Even if hes told, he'd also have to be told there's nothing he can do, and theres a chance that the rescue still fail. Do you really see any good coming out of that? I dont.

 

I can see your side about the anti-hero thing, but I think your point about Moir is completely irrelevant.

 

Yup, I know the laws of Traveling. But, truth be told, Nynaeve was able to reach many Malkieri to get them to join Lan, so Lan could've been located as well, should the need arise for it.

 

As for Thom risking Moiraine's life, I honestly don't know about that. All I know is that only three people could come to Moiraine's aid and that more parties would compromise the rescue effort. I've already said, twice, that I fail to find any reason for that, other than Jordan moving this particular thread in a certain direction, for the sake of the plot, his story or some other reason known only to him.

 

To be totally honest, if I had found some evidence in the books forbidding Lan from being the third party in Moiraine's rescue for some reason, then I'd understand how this would compromise the rescue. But I can't recall anything of that kind. So in that sense, unless there's some explanation in the books that I missed, this would be based on personal interpretation and that may be were we're disagreeing.

 

But you're right. Perhaps this is irrelevant in the overall sense of things. Now to make this perfectly clear, it's not about liking or disliking Lan. Personally, I just don't view him as a hero and I was just stating my reasons for that.

 

Moiraine's letter states that the third person has to be someone that she doesn't know.

[Darth Krewl]

Lan's decision is idiotic, for being older than all the others, he is seemingly the most immature of the lot barring. He had to be forced by a woman half his age who isn't even Malkeri to do his duty; at least Al'Akir and the Malkeri saved the last king. The borderlands are destroyed, what will Lan accomplish with 12,000 non-chanellers against 100,000+ Trollocs. Even they delay them, if Lan is smart he knows that other armies will be breaking through elsewhere. What he needed to do was raise the golden crane at world's end, gather an army and do some good with it, rather than die for nothing. If a Foresaken is there, he or she could kill the majority without breaking a sweat and leave the rest for the trollocs.

Darth Krewl, I was merely pointing out that even had he known of Moiraine he should go after her and as this post states, I agree about his charge suicide. Honor or not, if no help comes, he'll still be honorably dead having accomplished nothing and Nyneave will feel the pain of his loss forever.

 

Then we are on the same page, FO. Because the point I've been making all this time is that I don't approve of what Lan did and that he certainly doesn't strike me as a hero in the very least. I certainly hear you and share your views.

 

As for Nynaeve's pain, well, she knew what she was getting into before marrying the suicidal dude. Perhaps she naively thought that her love could lead Lan to change his mind, but she's got no one to blame for her potential loss other than herself. So, I wouldn't shed any tears for the braid-tugging former Wisdom.

 

Moiraine's letter states that the third person has to be someone that she doesn't know.

 

I see. Well, this certainly explains why it couldn't be her former Warder, but it still doesn't offer a good explanation as to why this should be the case. But thanks for your reply, anyways. Much appreciated.

[Charlz Guybon]

Is Tarwin's Gap the only way into the northern lands along the Blight Border that we know of? I'm assuming that the Trolloc attack on Heeth Keep is the same one that Lan Charges at Tarwin's Gap, unless the entire Blight is not blocked off by mountains as I think by JRs map. Help plz.

*Update: I just reread introduction, and think I just answered my own question. Heeth tower sends its messengers to the next tower along the line south toward the Aesdaishar Palace in Chachin. At the same time, or perhaps just after, (dang time-line) in Maradon, Ituralde fights an unexpected battle of overwhelming odds. So my guess is YUP, plenty of open ground for hordes of Trollocs to travel tween. My bet is fists are attacking each city along the Blightborder. Which might mean Lans Charge at the Gap may be happening at the same time, as the Trollocs haven't crossed it.

This is a post I just made on the Simple Q&A thread. Yes I quoted myself.

So I think part of the timeline setup is a way of pulling the wool over our eyes as to just how the heck Lan gets out of that mess. I could be wrong though. Anyone reassembled the Trolloc chapters in the timeline?

They might just be reinforcements for a stronger army that's already passed through the Gap.

[Charlz Guybon]

 

 

The biggest gripe I have with the military situation in the Wheel of Time is the apparent disregard for needing remounts. A force of heavy calvary generally needs to have at least 3 horses per knight. You can get by with less if you're a horse archer, but even then you'll probably want at least 2, yet nobody in Randland seems to worry about remounts, or finding grazing for their animals. No comments on the vast herds of horses surrounding the armies, nothing like that.

 

Now Lan's situation is different, since he's not expecting to come back from this battle, and I suspect most of the men there are expecting to die as well, so you won't need remounts. However every other army will, and it's just not discussed.

I assumed there were millions of free roaming horses in the borderlands, with acres and acres of grass for pasture. This is the only way to explain the all cavalry armies we have been told about from the borderlands. Even the southern armies have been abnormally cav heavy. eh, I can't get into this,

There's an uninhabited open plain that covers hundreds of thousands of sq. miles just to the south of the borderlands. I can't imagine they have a problem with keeping a steady supply of horses.