Discuss The Seanchan/Fortuona

[wvlr2]

Your statement is a little bit inaccurate - Tuon's Damane loved her (as is witnessed when she disappears and all of her Damane are desperate to get her back).

 

 

Have you ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? And that is without the delibrate Brainwashing that the Seanchan practice.

 

Hardly a good argument on your part.

 

 

 

She had one of her Damane tell her fortune, than out of shock and anger had her beaten. She then realized what she did was wrong, ensured that the Damane received favourable treatment and considered herself shamed by her ill-behavior (hence the veil).

 

Again, hardly a good argument for your stance. She was clearly more concerned with the "shame" she herself incurred than what she did to the woman. The woman recieved a few extra candies or something and was happy -

Stockholm Syndrome and brainwashing again

 

 

 

Yes, she enjoys breaking Marath'Damane to the A'dam, but that is because she doesn't consider them to be truly human. Many people take great pleasure from training a dog or a horse, but that does not make them evil.

 

Yes, Tuon's (/Fortuona's) actions are wrong, but that is not because she is an evil person by nature, rather she has been raised to rule a society where things we consider atrocities are considered both right and just.

Tuon is a good person, she just has wrong beliefs.

 

I am sure that there are plenty of Real World examples of despicable people throughout history (several come to my mind but to be Politically Correct I will not give names). They all (or at least quite a few) could claim similar circumstances. i.e. "It's not my fault - it is the culture I was brought up in." "It's not my fault - they deserve it because they are Green." "It's not my fault - my mommy did not love me." "It's not my fault - everyone I know likes raping and killing people." "It's not my fault - my children were hungry." "It's not my fault - the buffalo hides were very valuable but I did not need the meat" "It's not my fault - they were just savages and I wanted the land" ...................... The list is endless, the actions, tell the true tale.

 

Almost, every real culture in the world has had its own evil deeds done - inquisitions, conquests, plundering whatever. That is the nature of the world. It is just part or what we humans are. Sometimes we learn and grow, sometimes not.

 

I guess that making excuses for these things, is just part of what we are as well.

[moratcorlm]

She was clearly more concerned with the "shame" she herself incurred than what she did to the woman.

So what? There are a lot of shame-based cultures; morality need not be guilt-based.

 

Edit: you know what, believe whatever you like about the treatment of damane. Nobody's mind's going to be changed.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The Seanchan show the most promise for progress, development and future of all the cultures we have met. The Seanchan at least seem to place an emphasis on the welfare of the common people by promoting stability, peace and justice considering with which vigor they enforce these ideals. In that respect they are the legacy of Hawkwing who held similar views, hence the comment that in the days of Hawkwing a man could walk with a full purse from one city to another and not fear having to be robbed.

 

The Randland cultures are inferior to this or more degenerate in quality. It is also part of the reason why the Seanchan are so prolifically successful, they carry the passion and the support of the people. We even see in Randland how people are abandoning their nations to flee behind Seanchan lines for safety and stability. Or how much more content the commoners seemed to appear under Seanchan occupation.

 

This certainly implies that the Seanchan are the most progressive culture. The larger their reach the better for the people in the future, particularly post-Last Battle.

[gary0044187]

The Seanchan show the most promise for progress, development and future of all the cultures we have met. The Seanchan at least seem to place an emphasis on the welfare of the common people by promoting stability, peace and justice considering with which vigor they enforce these ideals. In that respect they are the legacy of Hawkwing who held similar views, hence the comment that in the days of Hawkwing a man could walk with a full purse from one city to another and not fear having to be robbed.

 

The Randland cultures are inferior to this or more degenerate in quality. It is also part of the reason why the Seanchan are so prolifically successful, they carry the passion and the support of the people. We even see in Randland how people are abandoning their nations to flee behind Seanchan lines for safety and stability. Or how much more content the commoners seemed to appear under Seanchan occupation.

 

This certainly implies that the Seanchan are the most progressive culture. The larger their reach the better for the people in the future, particularly post-Last Battle.

it seems to me that the seanchan are the template for the survival of humanity after the last battle. They do have some horrific side effects, but I can name one thing my country does that many European countries think is utterly barbaric (death penalty). There is even a quote on that in youtube somewhere.

[sidcarton]

The Seanchan show the most promise for progress, development and future of all the cultures we have met. The Seanchan at least seem to place an emphasis on the welfare of the common people by promoting stability, peace and justice considering with which vigor they enforce these ideals. In that respect they are the legacy of Hawkwing who held similar views, hence the comment that in the days of Hawkwing a man could walk with a full purse from one city to another and not fear having to be robbed.

 

The Randland cultures are inferior to this or more degenerate in quality. It is also part of the reason why the Seanchan are so prolifically successful, they carry the passion and the support of the people. We even see in Randland how people are abandoning their nations to flee behind Seanchan lines for safety and stability. Or how much more content the commoners seemed to appear under Seanchan occupation.

 

This certainly implies that the Seanchan are the most progressive culture. The larger their reach the better for the people in the future, particularly post-Last Battle.

 

I am not sure that the conclusions you draw are valid. Stability, peace, and justice built on a foundation of slavery are too high a price. Without invoking Godwin's Law, consider numerous societies in the 20th century that had stability, peace, and "justice", making the trains run on time, etc. -- as long as you were not a member of an undesirable group. Later wars notwithstanding, even people in the liberal democracies were initially fooled into believing that new, progressive societies were being created -- and before their true natures surfaced they did manage to convince a lot of people that they were paragons of stability, peace, and justice for all.

 

The Seanchan have had the benefit of largely avoiding the huge periods of chaos and conflict that the main continent has had to suffer. They don't have the Blight to deal with. They have a unitary political construct -- there is the Empire...and that's it. They haven't had to deal with the fallout of nations being repeatedly battered over three thousand years of chaos and strife. THe funny thing about chaos is, people who can't fight will look to whoever seems to bring stability, even to the point of giving up their freedoms. People react out of fear. Put it another way, nobody is running TO the Seanchan out of passion for their oh-so-cool lifestyle -- they're rather running FROM the strife and chaos created in the wake of the Dragon being reborn and the Last Battle approaching -- chaos that until recently the Seanchan have managed to avoid thanks in part to the big freakin' ocean between them and Randland and because the action is in Randland proper -- since that's where Rand is. Still, you'll notice they didn't do so hot at preventing J. Random Forsaken from easily messing up their Empire back home.

[moratcorlm]

Well, without invoking Godwin's Law, that makes your opponents both fascists and naïve communist sympathizers – and possibly genocidal, too? Heil Stalin, I guess.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The Seanchan show the most promise for progress, development and future of all the cultures we have met. The Seanchan at least seem to place an emphasis on the welfare of the common people by promoting stability, peace and justice considering with which vigor they enforce these ideals. In that respect they are the legacy of Hawkwing who held similar views, hence the comment that in the days of Hawkwing a man could walk with a full purse from one city to another and not fear having to be robbed.

 

The Randland cultures are inferior to this or more degenerate in quality. It is also part of the reason why the Seanchan are so prolifically successful, they carry the passion and the support of the people. We even see in Randland how people are abandoning their nations to flee behind Seanchan lines for safety and stability. Or how much more content the commoners seemed to appear under Seanchan occupation.

 

This certainly implies that the Seanchan are the most progressive culture. The larger their reach the better for the people in the future, particularly post-Last Battle.

 

I am not sure that the conclusions you draw are valid. Stability, peace, and justice built on a foundation of slavery are too high a price. Without invoking Godwin's Law, consider numerous societies in the 20th century that had stability, peace, and "justice", making the trains run on time, etc. -- as long as you were not a member of an undesirable group. Later wars notwithstanding, even people in the liberal democracies were initially fooled into believing that new, progressive societies were being created -- and before their true natures surfaced they did manage to convince a lot of people that they were paragons of stability, peace, and justice for all.

 

The Seanchan have had the benefit of largely avoiding the huge periods of chaos and conflict that the main continent has had to suffer. They don't have the Blight to deal with. They have a unitary political construct -- there is the Empire...and that's it. They haven't had to deal with the fallout of nations being repeatedly battered over three thousand years of chaos and strife. THe funny thing about chaos is, people who can't fight will look to whoever seems to bring stability, even to the point of giving up their freedoms. People react out of fear. Put it another way, nobody is running TO the Seanchan out of passion for their oh-so-cool lifestyle -- they're rather running FROM the strife and chaos created in the wake of the Dragon being reborn and the Last Battle approaching -- chaos that until recently the Seanchan have managed to avoid thanks in part to the big freakin' ocean between them and Randland and because the action is in Randland proper -- since that's where Rand is. Still, you'll notice they didn't do so hot at preventing J. Random Forsaken from easily messing up their Empire back home.

 

Stability, peace and justice built upon the backs of an Empire of all races and differing nations. Whether Ogier, Hillmen or contemporary Seanchan there is a fraternal drive towards a common goal that you don't find anywhere on the Randland continent prior to the Seanchan reconquista bringing that enlightened idea to the continent. Randland is full of petty squabbles as well as national and racial segregation.

 

While it is perhaps not morally defensible what is being done to channelers. It is definitely justifiable de jure even by modern concepts such as the Benes decree and Yalta concord. The channeling parties have shown time and time again to form a fifth column, whether back in the beginning with the founder Hawkwing being sabotaged, manipulated and almost destroyed by the scheming White Tower. Which gave birth to the Seanchan dislike and wariness of channelers. Then upon the creation of the Seanchan settlement by Luthair, who was also confronted by warring channeling consortiums spreading anarchy and chaos.

 

I don't think it's coincidental that the lack of a White Tower or similar channeling organization bent on manipulation and political influence on the Seanchan continent lead to the creation of the Empire. The Aes Sedai would never tolerate an all-reaching Empire in Randland, preferring many warring parties and factions, as we've seen time and time again. No matter the benefit and welfare to the common people such as establishment would bring about.

 

So no, while I despair at the methods of the Seanchan. I fully see them in their rights to put the welfare of the common people, stability, welfare and peace on the highest pedestal. If this requires the segregation of potential malefactors, it is a necessary evil for the greater good. Obviously it is a greater good seeing how receptive the peasants, commonfolk and villagers are to the Seanchan occupation. Willing to leave behind their abodes and homes to start a new life in Seanchan territory, seeing a true and better future for their families there.

 

The Seanchan may have many faults. But they are a force for good, in the anarchy and relentless destruction that will encompass the final battle they are perhaps humanities salvation and transition into a stable future in lieu of another breaking. The Seanchan are Hawkwings personal legacy, the type of Empire he tried to build up in Randland but which was only realized by his son across the Aryth. They are the strongest force for the light and good, at least by their deeds/aspirations, that can presently be found in the story.

[Elan Tedronai]

Necessary evil?there is nothing necessary about about leashing women like wild animals. No justification for that. I rather live amongst the trollocs and the fades than spend one minute as damane.

 

if they want to practise their sick systems on the their side of the aryth ocean then that's their problem. But not in randland countries. They should be destroyed to the point where they will never even dare think to invade beyond the shores of seandar

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Necessary evil?there is nothing necessary about about leashing women like wild animals. No justification for that. I rather live amongst the trollocs and the fades than spend one minute as damane.

 

if they want to practise their sick systems on the their side of the aryth ocean then that's their problem. But not in randland countries. They should be destroyed to the point where they will never even dare think to invade beyond the shores of seandar

 

 

Joke post. Grow up and return when you have something of value to add to the debate.

[Elan Tedronai]

i just did.

[Exy]

The Seanchan show the most promise for progress, development and future of all the cultures we have met. The Seanchan at least seem to place an emphasis on the welfare of the common people by promoting stability, peace and justice considering with which vigor they enforce these ideals.

Except, of course, when they're enslaving people or murdering children.

 

But I mean other than that they're great.

 

 

Willing to leave behind their abodes and homes to start a new life in Seanchan territory, seeing a true and better future for their families there.

I'm rereading The Great Hunt right now and the citizens of Toman Head are living in constant terror. Well, I guess they should be, after seeing so many of their fellows murdered by the Seanchan.

 

I know there's a fair number of people who really want authoritarian governments. People who want government to be the all-powerful daddy, and it doesn't matter to them if daddy is brutally abusive, as long as he stays in control. It's an obvious thread in U.S. politics. But watching people here stick up for a society that's depicted as so purely fascist and so willing to do violence to its own citizens is just disturbing. The Seanchan are depicted like Mussolini's Italy, except more willing to murder the people under their control and more open about it.

[wvlr2]

Except, of course, when they're enslaving people or murdering children.

 

But I mean other than that they're great.

 

Let's not forget the spying and torturing their own citizens to get supposed "confessions", or the Blood's routine practice of assassination, murder and regicide, or the genocide and murder of the common people including children to make examples.

 

OH, and on top of that - someone above used the example that all kinds (nationalities) of people are flocking to Ebu Dar for security reasons, when the same can be said for Caemlyn, Tar Valon and even Arad Doman for crying out loud. The world is falling apart & scared people are running everywhere trying to find safety and food.

[David Selig]

I personally find the treatment of damane the most disgusting thing in this series. Much more than the Trollocs eating humans for example. The systematic brainwashing, terrorising and the inhuman cruelty with which these women are treated just sickening for me.

 

One example:

TGH, Ch.40

 

Damane are too valuable to be killed out of hand, but you might find yourself not only soundly punished, but absent a tongue to speak or hands to write. Damane can do what they must without these things.”

 

Egwene shivered, though the air was not very cold. Pulling her cloak up onto her shoulders, her hand brushed the leash, and she jerked at it fitfully. “This is a horrible thing. How can you do this to anyone? What diseased mind ever thought of it?”

 

The blue-eyed sul’dam with the empty leash growled, “This one could do without her tongue already, Renna.”

 

If that's the price for stable government - no, thanks. It's not justified in any way in my book.

[Erunion]

The Seanchan concept of a stable, peaceful empire is good (or at least, better than what Randland has). The methods they use to achieve this empire are evil. Do the ends justify the means? I do not think so. What needs to happen is that the means used to achieve the ends change.

@wvlr2, My point earlier is not that the systematic enslavement, brainwashing and control of Damane is all right and good, it is that Tuon (and every other flipping Seanchan citizen) has grown up in a society where there is no alternative. The collaring of Channelers is the only thing that happens. It's not a matter of "It's not my fault - everyone I know likes collaring Damane" - It's a matter of "Huh? You mean there are people who don't collar Damane? You guys are weird". What needs to happen is that a viable alternative to the Damane system is shown to the Seanchan peoples, Tuon included.

 

 

If it is evil to consider collaring Damane right and good, then 95% of the Seanchan populace are evil.

The action itself is evil, but the people do not believe it to be so. They must come to an understanding that their actions are evil, with a viable, "good" alternative shown to them. If, after that, there are still people who use the A'dam as the Seanchan do, then they would be evil people. Right now, we have good, or at least neutral, people doing something that is evil, because they do not believe it to be evil. (Would you call all of the slave-using south of America pre-civil war to be evil? Or just doing something that is evil?)

[wvlr2]

The Seanchan concept of a stable, peaceful empire is good (or at least, better than what Randland has). The methods they use to achieve this empire are evil. Do the ends justify the means? I do not think so. What needs to happen is that the means used to achieve the ends change.

 

So invading many other sovereign countries is peaceful?

 

Spying on and torturing their own citizens is peaceful?

 

Genocide and murder of the common people including children is peaceful?

 

Routine practice of assassination, murder and regicide is peaceful?

 

 

 

@wvlr2, My point earlier is not that the systematic enslavement, brainwashing and control of Damane is all right and good, it is that Tuon (and every other flipping Seanchan citizen) has grown up in a society where there is no alternative. The collaring of Channelers is the only thing that happens. It's not a matter of "It's not my fault - everyone I know likes collaring Damane" - It's a matter of "Huh? You mean there are people who don't collar Damane? You guys are weird". What needs to happen is that a viable alternative to the Damane system is shown to the Seanchan peoples, Tuon included.

 

 

If it is evil to consider collaring Damane right and good, then 95% of the Seanchan populace are evil.

The action itself is evil, but the people do not believe it to be so. They must come to an understanding that their actions are evil, with a viable, "good" alternative shown to them. If, after that, there are still people who use the A'dam as the Seanchan do, then they would be evil people. Right now, we have good, or at least neutral, people doing something that is evil, because they do not believe it to be evil. (Would you call all of the slave-using south of America pre-civil war to be evil? Or just doing something that is evil?)

 

I think that I understand what you are saying/the point that you trying to make. I do not agree with it, but I at least understand.

 

Part of the Problem is this word "Evil".

Was it "Evil" for the Mayans to routinely sacrifice virgins to their gods? It was normal in their culture.

Was it "Evil" for some tribes to eat their neighbors? Cannibalism was normal in their culture.

Was it "Evil" to behead a pheasant for looking at you? Many cultures have done this.

[moratcorlm]

Let's not forget the spying and torturing their own citizens to get supposed "confessions", or the Blood's routine practice of assassination, murder and regicide, or the genocide and murder of the common people including children to make examples.

 

[...]

 

when the same can be said for Caemlyn, Tar Valon and even Arad Doman

Indeed. What I see here is a bunch of feudalists and monarchists who dislike anyone who goes up against Rand, then seek out reasons to rationalize their dislike. For a reader of fantasy fiction series set in premodern times to get the vapors when encountering premodern political philosophy is kind of laughable, people. Just say you don't like X and leave it at that.

I personally find the treatment of damane the most disgusting thing in this series. Much more than the Trollocs eating humans for example. The systematic brainwashing, terrorising and the inhuman cruelty with which these women are treated just sickening for me.

In what regard are they 'women'? Channelers are not human, as such, and while the scope of the 'other' brutality toward which engenders discomfort has been greatly expanded for modern people, as well it should – well, we still don't say that Michael Vick is worse than a murderous cannibal.

“Is that what we are?” Graendal arched an eyebrow. “Merely human? Surely we are something more. This is human.” She stroked a finger down the cheek of the woman kneeling beside her. “A new word will have to be created to describe us.”

Oh, genetically they're of homo sapiens, but they are so far outside the human experience – our human experience, for all of our human history – that they cannot be considered to be of like kind. And Luthair was right to consider them a threat to the people, but obviously profoundly hypocritical to then try to leash that threat. Nuclear weapons are no less dangerous in your hands than in anyone else's. No, if he considered them such a threat he should have had them all hunted down and killed, and been done with it.

 

I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the plight of the da'covale; to the extent their lives are brutal, that system should be altered to a more just and equitable one. And I fully recognize that many of the characters whom we have become accustomed to and fond of are channelers, and as fans we don't want to see their agency ended; people read the books to fantasize more about living in a world where they could have unrestricted magical and other powers than about living in a world without indoor plumbing. But we're interlopers, tourists, and we don't have a right to tell the people who actually have to live in a world where human-shaped creatures can kill, destroy, Compel with their minds and with no warning how to manage that problem. Nor is any ethical concern in real-life human history analogous to this. It was wrong to treat blacks terribly in North America, but blacks were not superhuman. It was wrong to treat Jews terribly in Eastern Europe, but Jews were not superhuman. Name any gender, ethnic, religious, or otherwise-based persecution and you'll find that in none of those cases were the persecuted in fact superhuman. There is no analogy. There is no pertinent allegory. This is new, and the fears of the masses cannot be so cavalierly dismissed.

[moratcorlm]

So invading many other sovereign countries [...] Spying on and torturing their own citizens [...] Genocide and murder of the common people including children [...] Routine practice of assassination, murder and regicide is peaceful?

None of that is 'peaceful', for a certain definition of peaceful. Nor is any of it new. Come on now; the uniqueness of Seanchan violence been disproved pages back.

[David Selig]

I can understand the concerns and caution of the normapl people towards the channellers with their superpowers and their potential for dominating the society using them, but the a'dam is hardly a solution. It just transfers the control of the superpowers to someone else. It's a massive hypocrisy which is one of my main problems with the Seanchan society. If they were killing all channellers, it would've been harsh, but understandable and logical in a way.

 

But brainwashing and treating them like pets for 500 years is both sickening from my POV and doesn't solve the fundamental problem of their huge potential for destruction or using something like Compulsion against others.

[capuga]

I'm at least somewhat sympathetic to the plight of the da'covale; to the extent their lives are brutal, that system should be altered to a more just and equitable one. And I fully recognize that many of the characters whom we have become accustomed to and fond of are channelers, and as fans we don't want to see their agency ended; people read the books to fantasize more about living in a world where they could have unrestricted magical and other powers than about living in a world without indoor plumbing. But we're interlopers, tourists, and we don't have a right to tell the people who actually have to live in a world where human-shaped creatures can kill, destroy, Compel with their minds and with no warning how to manage that problem. Nor is any ethical concern in real-life human history analogous to this. It was wrong to treat blacks terribly in North America, but blacks were not superhuman. It was wrong to treat Jews terribly in Eastern Europe, but Jews were not superhuman. Name any gender, ethnic, religious, or otherwise-based persecution and you'll find that in none of those cases were the persecuted in fact superhuman. There is no analogy. There is no pertinent allegory. This is new, and the fears of the masses cannot be so cavalierly dismissed.

 

But superhuman or not, no-one deserves to be punished until they have actually commited a crime. Punish the channelers that actually use their Power for criminal pursuits. Don't treat someone as an animal because they might do something wrong. I realize that this is an opinion from an outside perspective, but I don't think there is anything wrong in pointing out the unfairness of the Seanchan damane system while understanding their point of view on the matter.

 

Besides, they've now had plenty of time to realize that their fears are mostly unfounded. Channelers in Randland have not been collared yet they don't rule the world in a cruel, tight fist. Sure, they have influence and political power. But they are not ruthless tyrants killing people left and right and forcing their rule upon the masses. And one group of channelers that the Seanchan have spent plenty of time with (the Windfinders) are not even bound by Oaths to govern their use of the Power.

 

I've also never understand how you haven't heard of more people fighting the system in Seanchan. The girls get collared around 14 - 18 years old. Until then, they are someone's beloved children. Kids that their parents have seen are lovable humans and not monsters. There is not a chance in hell that I would just let someone take my daughter away from me to be treated the way damane are treated without a fight.

[Erunion]

@Wvlr2 - You are way behind in the argument, I have already brought up those points against Morat'corlm days ago. What I'm trying to say now is that these actions are evil. The people doing them are not, because they do not understand or realize that there is an alternative to their actions. The actions must stop, and the people doing them must realize that what they are doing is very, very wrong.

 

@Mark Grayson - Absolutely agree.

 

On the lack of fighting the system, the Seanchan people fear and are terrified of unleashed chanellers + are indoctrinated into absolute obedience to the crystal throne. Suddenly finding out that your child is something you both fear and hate, while the government who you are trained to be totally obedient to sweeps in and takes her away, how would you react? Honestly, I'm not sure what I would do in that situation.

Of course, if I didn't buy the whole Marath'damane are evil shtick that the government is feeding me, than I would almost certainly try to free the woman.

 

It's an interesting line of thought. What would you do? (speaking to all the Dragonmounters here)

[moratcorlm]

But superhuman or not, no-one deserves to be punished until they have actually commited a crime.

Even the White Tower, the 'free alternative', disagrees with you there. I don't disagree with you, as it happens, but it seems that following the incident where channelers brought an evil god into contact with the world, which directly resulted in half of them killing on a genocidal scale and destroying the better part of human civilization, and the other half was still capable of creating unstoppable weapons, there was overwhelming popular demand for channelers to be bound. Even Aes Sedai believe that the preemptive punishment of the binding is what it means to be Aes Sedai; witness Romanda's horror at the notion of unbinding the Oaths. The Windfinders are enjoined from the highest degree of power, so that they are always servants, by childhood indoctrination. The Wise Ones pretty much rule the Aiel and are a somewhat unique case.

 

Now, as I say, I disagree with the notion of preemptive punishment, and I have hopes that the Seanchan dedication to universal justice will allow Tuon to find the holes in the illogic of the a'dam and right that ancient wrong. But I'm not going to get too worked up about damane. Stop removing tongues, if indeed that happens? Certainly. Stop with physical punishments? Sure, though there are no mentions in the books of physical torment as severe as that which Egwene unleashed upon Nynaeve to compel obedience – torture is wrong. But they are superhuman, and looking at things in the light of how they can be integrated into mundane human society rather than the light of how cool it would be to use magic they become problematic. How do you go about punishing a rogue channeler after the fact? Semirhage showed exactly how difficult that is when there isn't a rather totalitarian guild structure that is universally capable of doing so, and I might add universally willing.

[SvetSedi]

None of that is 'peaceful', for a certain definition of peaceful. Nor is any of it new. Come on now; the uniqueness of Seanchan violence been disproved pages back.

Pardon my ignorance, but reading back through the thread, all the thread, I seem to see the issue addressed previously but as far as being disproved? I sure am not convinced.

I seem to remember mostly all the Seanchan POVs that we have had and most of them (excepting Tuon) have had a common element of concern for the danger of the Seakers, Listeners and Questioners. Now we have had probably less than 20 Seanchan POVs, but I think that the number of times that most of the Seanchan characters show concern about the issue is quite telling and contrary to what you say that the Seanchan are not unique in this reguard. Even the extreemely loyal Deatwatch Guard guy, spent time thinking on the possability.

 

On the other hand, we have multitudes of POVs from all over Randland, the Aiel and the Seafolk and at most only a couple, if any showed any concern about such things from their government.

 

No this is far from disproven.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Its too hard to view the Seanchan with any objectivity. The simple fact that they collar channelers makes them "evil" in the eyes of the reader.

 

I dont condone slavery at all, obviously, but i believe the Seanchan are getting the hard end of the bargain.

 

Remember the whole scene with Aviendha in ToM was THE AIEL'S FAULT. They decieved everyone to break the Dragon's Peace. The Seanchan respected the compact. Their rule, aside from the whole collaring channelers, Rand admits is better than his own. the Seanchan bring peace, for all of their military rule, the average person lives in peace.

 

So while I do not particularly like the idea of the Raven Empire taking over the world and collaring every channeler, i dont have any sympathy for the Aiel. They got what they deserved in that future viewing thing. They started the war, and dragged everyone else into it with deception.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

The Seanchan show the most promise for progress, development and future of all the cultures we have met. The Seanchan at least seem to place an emphasis on the welfare of the common people by promoting stability, peace and justice considering with which vigor they enforce these ideals.

Except, of course, when they're enslaving people or murdering children.

 

But I mean other than that they're great.

 

 

Willing to leave behind their abodes and homes to start a new life in Seanchan territory, seeing a true and better future for their families there.

I'm rereading The Great Hunt right now and the citizens of Toman Head are living in constant terror. Well, I guess they should be, after seeing so many of their fellows murdered by the Seanchan.

 

I know there's a fair number of people who really want authoritarian governments. People who want government to be the all-powerful daddy, and it doesn't matter to them if daddy is brutally abusive, as long as he stays in control. It's an obvious thread in U.S. politics. But watching people here stick up for a society that's depicted as so purely fascist and so willing to do violence to its own citizens is just disturbing. The Seanchan are depicted like Mussolini's Italy, except more willing to murder the people under their control and more open about it.

 

 

You're applying a faux analogy there. You're implying that invasion and occupation are to be put on the same level. I am more than sure that when Rand brought the Aiel into the continent to conquer and unleashed the Shaido into the world through his actions that the terror eclipsed nigh anything less than a shadowspawn invasion. Worse than that Rand is a dismal leader and possesses nowhere near the infrastructure, efficiency and ability to repair what he breaks.

 

How are US politic relevant to this discussion at all? So far as I am aware there is as of yet no nation build upon free democratic, federalist or republican values. Even Caemlyn is ruled with an iron-fist where the regent Elayne speaks non-nonchalantly of executing those who disobey her in matters of rule and forcefully keeping individuals kidnapped to keep their families in line.

 

Explain to me how an Empire can be fascist? I believe you haven't a clue what you're talking about in this regard. Fascism in its Epoch seems to imply a form of resistance to and a reaction against modernity. Fascism arises as a metapolitical dimension in a democratic society based on the discontent of the middle and lower classes as a force to infuse all levels of society with their force. Can you even remotely explain to me how this can arise from a society in the Imperial Age that can best be described as orthodox feudalism, considering there hasn't even been an industrial age or great awakening yet? It seems nonsensical. Furthermore the existence of fascism would imply the existence of other political establishments, in particular collectivist governments. I mean if you want to compare it to Mussolini's Italy you might as well stay within the credulous. Furthermore in a Hegelian dialectic it is easy to point out that fascism was the great anti-movement: it was anti-liberal, anti-communist, anti-capitalist, and anti-bourgeois. This does not seem to correlate in the slightest to any plane of society existing in Randland or Seanchan. So again with all due respect, can you please bother to explain to me what you're smoking to imply that the Seanchan are in the slightest fascists?

[Ltsegarra]

This is the trouble with any society in any point in history or fiction. This ability to only see things simply...at face value. The Seanchan were born out of the breaking, the paranoia of Artur Hawkwing, isolation on another continent, and finally the corrupting influence of the Forsaken. From our POV their evil and slavery is bad, but witness when any Seanchan damane are free and you can see the length of the belief in the Seanchan way of life.

I think Robert Jordan true gift through his writing is the evolution of not only character but of nations and history. Everything won't get wrapped up in a nice bow for people. In fact listening to an interview with Brandon Sanderson and dragon mount, there are "things" that Robert Jordan want intentionally left out of the final book. I think one of these things will be the final fate in the future of the Seanchan. The damanes fate will not be decided ultimately within the books, but within the hearts of the readers. Sadistic people or those that think Aes Sedai are "corrupt" will favor Seanvhan controlling the world. Other, as myself believe the seeds are there to challenge the Seanchan "worldview" and help them find a peace in the land, if only forced by "Rand's Treaty".

As I stated earlier, the Seanchan can be a force for good as seen in some of the areas they've "conquered". As far as the final books are concerned though, it likely the Seanchan final purpose is to gather their own forces and face the Last Battle. That's the one element every nation whether supporting Rand or not agree on, the Last Battle is coming and that the "Dragon" is chosen to fight it WITH the support of those who cherish life or just want to go on living.