Discuss The Seanchan/Fortuona

[Braden]

I suspect that war will never happen, read the glossary entry for the towers of midnight, its a giant clue :).

 

I suspect the same. I actually found it interesting Aviendha only saw one potential future. I wonder if its linked to whoever Nakomi is in anyway.

 

Essentially the pillars showed her what she needed to see in order to prevent it. Now the Aiel will probably be a part of the Dragons Peace and Aviendha will prevent the future that would destroy the Aiel.

[Exy]

Isn't the prophesy stating that the Dragon must kneel before the Cyrstal Throne a Seanchan thing? Perhaps the verses were corrupted by Ishamael and Rand kneeling to the Seanchan is all part in parcel of a long term plan beneficial to the Shadow.

Yeah, that's I think the most common interpretation of it. The ostensibly unaltered one holds that Rand will "bind the nine moons to serve him" (the nine moons, of course, being a reference to the royal family.) That's not to say they are mutually exclusive, but I don't see any particular reason to believe the Seanchan version. It's just an excellent way for Ishamael to sow discord between nations.

[Braden]

I'd certainly rather see them humbled, especially in preference to the possible future Aviendha saw in Rhuidean. A world that is entirely part of the Seanchan empire is a pretty big bummer of a future.

 

Thats not the impression I got from Aviendhas visions. Well not after reading them all.

 

1st vision: Aiel people are essentially scavengers and completely broken (people have flintlock weapons)

 

2nd vision: Aiel people are routed in one of their holds by raken and essentially give up trying to fight back and go to wander the waste, according to Seanchan demand they don't congregate anymore.

 

3rd vision: War seems to be at a stalemate. Aviendhas granddaughters love interest steals military plans from the Seanshan showing scenarios where other countries enter the fray. They use this deceitfully to get Andor to commit to the war.

 

4th vision: Aiel people decalre war on Seanchan b/c they no other way of life and/or they still have collared Aiel.

 

I am not sure the Seanchan will be humbled other then to agree to the Dragons Peace, where Rand will give everyone the ultimatum to do what he says or the world will burn.

It ends with genocide against the Aiel by the Seanchan, and IIRC in the vision after the one in which they persuade Andor to go to war (after in time, that is) it's established that the Black Tower is the only resistance in the Westlands. And since they're mining the Waste it seems they pretty much control that as well. Shara is possibly not under Seanchan control but everywhere else in the world apparently is.

 

A future in which the Seanchan control the world, genocide the Aiel, and are undoubtedly collaring more and more women channelers is a pretty grim one.

 

Yes I agree in the end Seanchan rule the world but that may or may not have come to be under different circumstances. Also the Seanchan are proven effective leaders (if incredibly unethical to people who can channel). Every event lead to a worse and worse world more in Seanchan control was attributed to the Aiel.

 

One can presume the Seanchan entered into the Dragons Peace as well, but upon being attacked by the Aiel lead to events with them defending themselves. The fight was a stalemate and the Aiel petition other neutral countries to help them starting a cascading effect causing a world war. Loyalties shifted some coutries likely raised arms in Seanchan's defense, potentially even some countries not currently under their control. Also remeber this war went on for decades as you could tell from the Aiel perspective all they cared for was killing Seanchan, imagine what the philosophy was for Seanchan citizens. In the end there seemed to be world peace and incredible hatred for the Aiel people leading to their destruction as a people.

 

I am purely speculating and I am not meaning to make Seanchan out to be without fault. Its just there is blame on both sides. Not that it matters but none of it will likely happen now that Aviendha was 'warned' of it.

[nleseul]

What passages tell us rand has hawkwing's sword? And how the hell did I miss that? That's awesome!

 

Don't have my books on hand to look up the quote now, but it's in TGS. There was discussion about it on here a while back, I think. Basically, Rand has a new Power-forged blade that he found somewhere off-screen in one scene in TGS, and it's a) something that has been hidden for a long time, b) something that he remembers seeing at Falme, and c) not something out of LTT's memories. That pretty much points at it being Justice. (I was confused by this when I first read TGS, and was trying to figure out how that could possibly have described Laman's sword, which is what Rand had been using up until then, as far as I recall.)

 

Since Rand seems to be using Callandor to stab things nowadays, there's really no point in Justice showing up other than as a gift to the Seanchan.

[Haran]

I suppose that Galgan will learn from the damane captured in the raid on the White Tower that sul'dam can channel: then he will seize the throne and leash Fortuona. Beslan will then revolt and free her.

 

I've been playing with this idea myself, it seems more likely than Mat blowing the horn of valere in front of everyone and getting Hawkwing to talk to his bloody wife.

[joshua]

Hmm...looked at in that way I think the sword being justice makes a lot of sense. Now I too recall reading of it and thinking the sword must just be laman's.

[putts]

One flaw I've always seen in the Seanchan line of thought ...

 

 

Sure ... damane can't do anything against anyone else because they're chained to a Suldam. But, what stops Suldam from doing the same thing? You've removed one threat by sliding it onto a different person who could fall to the same temptations? Doesn't even make sense.

 

 

Sure, a chained up Doberman is better than one unchained ... but if the guy holding the chain trains him how to fight better and then points him at you and says "Attack!" ... what's the difference. You'd probably be better off against an untrained Doberman in that scenario.

 

 

Anywhooooo ... I like the Galgan theory. Would really love to see someone leash Tuon. I really like her character, but the entire Seanchan nation needs to be humbled and that means it has to start with her. One could even believe that Galgan (or whoever makes this bold move) might just be Demandred and he's just been waiting for such an opportunity to gain control of one of the most powerful armies on the continent. What he won't see coming is Mat wearing his medallion beating his butt into a bloody pool for capturing his Tuon. Aww ... poor lil Demandred.

[Exy]

Yes I agree in the end Seanchan rule the world but that may or may not have come to be under different circumstances. Also the Seanchan are proven effective leaders (if incredibly unethical to people who can channel).

I don't know. They stabilized Tarabon, and that was to the benefit of its citizens, but it's not clear that Altara's really any better off under them. It may not have been a unified country but it doesn't appear to have been a hellhole either.

 

And they're not just unethical to channelers; they take lots of other da'covale and do things like make them serve as human furniture. The average man on the street may not care much whether he's living under the rule of Queen Tylin or the Empress of the Nine Moons but lots of people end up suffering under Seanchan rule.

 

But yeah, obviously I hate the Seanchan. So I'm hoping things don't go well for them.

[Baelorn]

I don't know. They stabilized Tarabon, and that was to the benefit of its citizens, but it's not clear that Altara's really any better off under them. It may not have been a unified country but it doesn't appear to have been a hellhole either.

 

Let's not forget that they're constantly fighting for the throne themselves. IIRC, Seandar(sp) is thrown into chaos every few years because the Empress, may she live forever, is assassinated. Or one of the royal family assassinates their sibling(s). Tuon thinks to herself that an impossible royal marriage is one where spouses don't scheme to have eachother assassinated. I wouldn't call that kind of structure any better than what we've seen on the main continent.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I am not sure the Seanchan will be humbled other then to agree to the Dragons Peace, where Rand will give everyone the ultimatum to do what he says or the world will burn.

 

I don't see Mahatma Rand doing that.

 

I hope desperately we don't see him kneel to Fortuona, either.

 

The solution has to be some third alternative, but what, I don't know.

[Bridge]

I posted this in the Mat thread a couple hours too early; it definitely belongs here. The issue of the damane is obviously significant, and it is an issue that I expect to see resolved before the Seanchan join with Rand's forces for the Last Battle. We know that the Seanchan originally collared the Aes Sedai to prevent them from using the One Power to gain dominion over non-channelers and to give Luthair's army a significant boost in firepower. The damane are still viewed as too dangerous and useful to allow them autonomy. I think that the combination of Mat's foxhead medallion and his cannons will allow the Seanchan to free the damane.

 

In the other three societies in which we have significant insight into the lives of channelers, we know that the women are restrained by social structure (the Oaths, the cultural prohibition against Wise Ones participating in battle, the strictly defined command structure of the Athan Miere). It is unlikely that such a structure would spontaneously arise were the Seanchan to suddenly free the damane, so they need something else to insure that they don't revert back to the continent's original state (warring Aes Sedai vying for power). The foxhead medallion provides a unique solution to this problem. I see this playing out in one of two ways:

 

a) The Seanchan require all channelers in Seanchan territory to wear a copy of Elayne's flawed medallion, preventing them from channeling.

b) The Seanchan make copies of Mat's original medallion available to all Seanchan citizens, granting them immunity to weaves.

 

I find b) to be significantly more likely, primarily because a) seems to be unenforceable. The two disadvantages to b) are that you have to produce millions of Ter'angreal and channelers can still drop a rock on your head. Fortunately, the Seanchan already have a booming Ter'angreal industry from producing a'dam. The second problem will be addressed later.

 

The Seanchan armies rely on the firepower than damane provide, and that is not an advantage that they will easily give up. In a stroke of luck, Mat has just discovered gunpowder, an invention that will make the damane obsolete. Cannon are capable of being every bit as devastating as damane (particularly given that damane cannot form a circle), and they can be made in much greater numbers. From Aviendha's visions, we know that personal firearms are right around the corner (these will negate the rock on your head issue from above). The Seanchan way of waging war is about to become extinct. The proliferation of gunpowder will make the damane unnecessary from a military perspective.

 

In conclusion, I believe that Rand will be able to trade the knowledge of Mat's medallion and cannon in exchange for a promise from Tuon to begin the process of freeing the damane (presumably Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, and Windfinders immediately, with the native Seanchan slowly integrated back into society after the Last Battle).

 

Thoughts?

Not quite... what about power shields? Also I suspect Elayne would create a TA witch allow an AS would be able to deflect/resist in front of rapid projectiles, like shields from Dune (Brian Sand. wouldn't that be a good idea?)... but if I had the power,the raken, suldame and other seanchan forces are to be destroyed. Sorry for my written English, I cannot explain right now what I would do but...there are a lot of military tch to send seancean to dust!

[AutomatedTeller]

I can see new, wise, humble Rand bowing or even kneeling, if that is what is necessary.

 

I think Tuon is gonna get multi-taveren'ed, though - at least Rand and Mat, maybe Perrin as well (remember, Perrin knows one of the Seanchan generals)

 

I like the idea of Hawkwing talking to Tuon - "look, great-great-great granddaughter, this it the DRAGON REBORN. He's the guy - listen to him. btw, the guy who made me hate Aes Sedai? One of the Forsaken, so maybe you should re-think this whole collaring thing..."

[Shmuel Goldberg]

There's a few things which need to be resolved in the last book.

 

The main thing is clearly how to get the Seanchan to fight in the last Battle together with Rand, the Aes Sedai etc.

 

The plotlines which will play into this are

1) the whole 'suldam can channel' thing which hasn't had much impact, yet, and of course the fact that Tuon is a suldam.

2) Mat+Tuon

3) Perrin and the Seanchan general

4) possibly Rand's new sword, and Berelain's name (remember she calls herself something something Paendrag)

5) The Horn of Valere which actually brings back Arthur Hawkwing. That should make an impression!

6) Avi's second visit to the glass columns

 

Anyone things the Seanchan will actually execute their second raid to the White Tower?

 

Also, are all the sad bracelets gone? Well, even if they're all gone, the knowledge is still there. At some point the Seanchan might get it in their minds to collar all the male channelers as well.

[RUSH]

I hope desperately we don't see him kneel to Fortuona, either.

 

If Rand kneels to the empress, I'm going to be pissed. I'm definitely in the camp that believes the Seanchan prophesies were intentionally twisted to sow discord. Getting the empress to bow to the Dragon Reborn would be hard enough without a false prophesy stating the exact opposite. I don't see Tuon backing down, so I don't know how this will be resolved.

 

The Seanchan have had entirely too much of getting their way. Even when they take heavy losses (Rand, Ituralde), it still ends up being in their favor. They idiotically expect non-Seanchan to somehow magically know all of their bizarre customs for interacting with the Blood, which is illogical, since the Seanchan ways no doubt weren't set in stone until long after Luthair's people left Randland. There's no way the Randlanders could possibly know Seanchan ways.

 

Tuon fully expects Mat to take on every aspect of Seanchan culture, but she doesn't even entertain the thought of taking on any of his ways. Later, when accepting Beslan as a member of the High Blood, she talks about accepting some of their ways, but so far, this has only manifested itself in her not having Beslan killed/beaten/made da'covale for not acting the part of the perfect High Blood.

 

Maybe these are baby steps, but my hope for getting some real Seanchan change (Mat, who will never shave his head or wear long fingernails or the other Seanchan crap) was fruitless.

 

If nothing ever comes of the discovery that sul'dam can learn to channel, it'll be a mistake. The way the captured sul'dam are behaving, it SHOULD be an earth-shattering revelation.

 

Another thing that bugs me is supposedly Seanchan (the land) is in bloody turmoil due to Semirhage's murder of the entire imperial family, and a murderer sits openly on the throne (who is it?), but the Seanchan in Randland just shrug when the learn of this, like eh, whatever.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Another thing that bugs me is supposedly Seanchan (the land) is in bloody turmoil due to Semirhage's murder of the entire imperial family, and a murderer sits openly on the throne (who is it?), but the Seanchan in Randland just shrug when the learn of this, like eh, whatever.

 

I think it's more a case of - One war at a time.

 

They're already hip-deep in trying to retake Hawkwing's original holdings, they simply don't have the manpower or resources to divide their forces and retake the Seanchan homeland too. Not yet, anyway.

[Exy]

I think it's more a case of - One war at a time.

 

They're already hip-deep in trying to retake Hawkwing's original holdings, they simply don't have the manpower or resources to divide their forces and retake the Seanchan homeland too. Not yet, anyway.

This is what I figure too. Plus maybe assuming that with time the Seanchan back home will at least manage to reassert order, since it's probably (at least at this point) less fragmented than the Westlands.

[Eht Slat Meit]

I think it's more a case of - One war at a time.

 

They're already hip-deep in trying to retake Hawkwing's original holdings, they simply don't have the manpower or resources to divide their forces and retake the Seanchan homeland too. Not yet, anyway.

This is what I figure too. Plus maybe assuming that with time the Seanchan back home will at least manage to reassert order, since it's probably (at least at this point) less fragmented than the Westlands.

 

They also seem to have a legend (thanks, relevant Glossary!) regarding the Imperial Family (Mat/Tuon) returning to the Towers of Midnight to right that which is wrong. I'm guessing that's where the outriggers come in.

[Vlad]

I'm supremely looking forward to getting more details about the threads that Graendal was spinning around Fortuona.

 

I don't get the impression that it has to do with Galgan. He's acting normal for a Seanchan. So curious.

[RedVanilla]

I'm hoping that the prophecies were corrupted, and it's actually Tuon who must bow to Rand. Hate the Seanchan, and am hoping that Avi can change the future and get rid of damane and marath damane entirely, as well as a good deal of the Seanchan behaviour and culture. Perhaps Mat will be the one to snap a collar around her fool neck.

[Viperswhip]

Well, the prophecies were almost certainly corrupted. Hawking hated the Aes Sedai by the end because they were the only wielders of One Power allowed to propagate. What do you imagine Tuon will do once she learns from Mat or whoever that Saidin is clean? She'll immediately try to collar them or continue to destroy them. Any other Seanchan will try the same thing. The revelation to Tuon that she could channel could not have come from a worse group of people, Joline, especially, is a huge...well, you know.

 

Let's see, one set of prophecies dates all the way back to the breaking, check. The other one dates back to the creation of the Seanchan Empire, about 1000 years ago, and let's say Ishy was unbound every 40-100 years or so. Okay, we've got Hawking's kids over there, conquering the land, and are done just in time for Ishy to pop over and become an "advisor".

 

I will never read this series again if it is not made obvious that the Seanchan are headed for the exits by the end of the series.

 

Part of the reason the Aiel failed to take them out is that the other nations did not join in. They likely started trading with the Seanchan, and money drives the world. Consider that the world, thanks to thousands of years of White Tower machinations and insulation, doesn't trust or outright hate or fear the Aes Sedai and you've got a bunch of nations in the Dragon's peace who think taking taking One Power users out of the equation is a good idea.

 

Also, let's look at the Dragon's peace...the Borderlands are done for, well, Arafel and Kandor are basically overrun by this point. Camelyn itself is getting sacked at the moment. The Cairhienin people have been sacked by the Aeil twice in twenty years. I don't care what state Rand manages to get Arad Doman back into, they aren't going to be in shape for resisting the Seanchan for a long time. I don't know what's going on in Ghaldean now. Murandy is almost certainly ruled by a Forsaken. That pretty much leaves Tear and Illian. All of this coupled with the loss of military personnel at the Last Battle and you have a recipe for people giving up war for a long, long while.

 

The Seanchan just have to sit back and nurse their own wounds. The Dragon peace will give them time to return the Return and take back over that continent, so they will, by the time Andor enters the war (in Avi's vision), own half of Randland, and all of the other continent. I don't care if all the free nations of Randland opposes them at that point, it's basically over. The White Tower was clearly done by the time Andor entered the war, what's remarkable is that the Aeil lasted 20 years by themselves holding the Seachan at a stalemate, although, they were losing a war of attrition at that point.

 

The only way the Seanchan get dead is for a major overhaul, rebellion in their own empire, which could happen if they all learn that Suldam can channel, or for the nations of the Dragon peace to immediately join the Aeil instead of letting the Seanchan consolidate. I don't see the latter happening.

 

How is Avi going to change the Aiel? Even Amys is outraged by Wise Ones collared. The White Tower will be attacked, again, even under Avi's vision. I don't understand why Andor didn't join the Aiel sooner but by the time they did it was far too late.

[Zentari]

One thing that I never understood was how the heck the channelers got pushed that far back.They WO should have been able to get enough women for the black tower to get a circle or two going and I can't see how a circle of more than 13 channelers can be pushed around by anything short of another circle, something the Seanchan are incapable of.

[Diederichos]

Wow, a lot of people are forgetting the pre-VoG Seanchan-Tinker scene and the point of it, but then I think there was always a certain degree of willful blindness around the Seanchan. What, they're the only that practice slavery? What about the Aiel selling westlanders they capture to the Sharans as chattel? I think folks need to remember that there is a distinction between chattel slavery and property which is close to the Janissary/slave-functionary model common in the Ottoman and Chinese lands. Beyond that, sado-macho much with the collaring fantasies? :D

[dwn]

One thing that I never understood was how the heck the channelers got pushed that far back.They WO should have been able to get enough women for the black tower to get a circle or two going and I can't see how a circle of more than 13 channelers can be pushed around by anything short of another circle, something the Seanchan are incapable of.

 

That struck me as pretty odd as well. Damane are greatly effective in pitched battle, but only because of their training and discipline. Any other organized group of channellers would do as well. Indeed, the Asha'man more than hold their own against the damane. Add in linking--even in small circles--and you get a force that individual damane cannot possibly stand against. The major Seanchan victories have been against non-channellers and a pathologically dysfunctional and underpopulated White Tower.

 

Sure, the whole concept of damane is meant to be horrifying, and it is. But I find it takes a willful suspension of disbelief to accept them as a long term threat.

 

-- dwn

[Jeangray]

What, they're the only that practice slavery? What about the Aiel selling westlanders they capture to the Sharans as chattel?

 

They only did it to Cahirienin who dared to come into the Waste after Laman's Sin. And no, Aiel themselves didn't practice slavery until Sevanna and probably never will again.

 

I think folks need to remember that there is a distinction between chattel slavery and property which is close to the Janissary/slave-functionary model common in the Ottoman and Chinese lands.

 

And like those examples, Seanchan has both kinds of slavery. Anyway, imposing slavery on civilizations that have progressed beyond it is social regression and evil.

[Diederichos]

What, they're the only that practice slavery? What about the Aiel selling westlanders they capture to the Sharans as chattel?

 

They only did it to Cahirienin who dared to come into the Waste after Laman's Sin. And no, Aiel themselves didn't practice slavery until Sevanna and probably never will again.

 

I think folks need to remember that there is a distinction between chattel slavery and property which is close to the Janissary/slave-functionary model common in the Ottoman and Chinese lands.

 

And like those examples, Seanchan has both kinds of slavery. Anyway, imposing slavery on civilizations that have progressed beyond it is social regression and evil.

 

Oh, so it's fair game to condemn an entire nation to being treated no different than an animal because of one screwed up ruler's actions? Who's whitewashing now?

 

No, I disagree, the only chattel slavery we have seen from t he SEanchan is for condemned criminals, Suroth, the other type of da'covale are in functionary/soldier position. There is a distinct difference between how they treat criminals and how they treat innocent property. From a 21st century perspective, I disagree with the da;covale concept, but I also disagree with heriditary (spelling?) nobility and with a lot of things we see happening throughout WoT. From a WoT perspective, I would wager that between a lot of the other options out there, being a da'covale might not be the worst and in my opinion is far from it.

 

The damane thing is different. I understand why the Seanchan do it and ultimately were I in Luthair's position, I would have done the exact same back then, I would at the very least change(in the WoT world) how damane are treated even if they're captive. But from regular WoTlander perspective, it's understandable, look at how Beslan reacts to it, he's a normal guy that sees that the Seanchan have found a way to control channelers, people who are essentially powerful individuals that answer to no one but themselves, or the WT in the case of the Aes SEdai. I think that our perspective is a bit skewed away from what the average Westlander might think because a lot of the character's POV we see dealing with damane are either 1. channelers or 2. channeler-friendly or 3. have channeling friends/family. From a 21st century perspective, it's horrifying thing, from a regular WoTlander perspective, not so much. But what I cannot agree with is how they don't treat damane closer to da'covale, yes they are property and they do what they're told, but they should at least have some rights.