Discuss The Seanchan/Fortuona

[SvetSedi]

So I can't cut the eyes from puppies that have never used them?

Leave those cute little puppies alone!

[Muad Cheade]

Not quite.

 

Think of it this way. Sparkers will channel eventually. There is no doubt about it. Learners can go their whole lives without channeling. How can you cut a someone off from something they've used?

 

For example, the reason the Black Towers numbers are so large is because they have found vast numbers of learners who would ordinarily live normal lives because the Red Ajah cannot gentle them.

So I can't cut the eyes from puppies that have never used them?

 

If the Sul'dam are not using the "ability" then how do they use the adam. It's a Catch 22 again.

That's not a good example.

 

A better example would be an amphibian, a creature that can breathe both air and water. If an amphibian is underwater, how can you deny it air? It functions perfectly without it and you cannot take something (air) away from it as it is not exposed to it. Only when it consciously crosses over (above water) can you take the air away.

 

To use an a'dam, you must either be able to channel (sparker or learner who has "learned" or have the ability to ("ordinary" learner).

[wvlr2]

Leave those cute little puppies alone!

 

OK Snakes then. OK?

 

 

 

 

That's not a good example.

 

A better example would be an amphibian, a creature that can breathe both air and water. If an amphibian is underwater, how can you deny it air? It functions perfectly without it and you cannot take something (air) away from it as it is not exposed to it. Only when it consciously crosses over (above water) can you take the air away.

 

To use an a'dam, you must either be able to channel (sparker or learner who has "learned" or have the ability to ("ordinary" learner).

 

Sorry that still does not work for me. It's still just different ways to use oxygen.

 

It is all too much of a Catch 22. I do not think that I will ever be happy with it. I will just have to ignore the issue - for now anyway. But if I think of anything else I will be back.

[Suttree]

Not quite.

 

Think of it this way. Sparkers will channel eventually. There is no doubt about it. Learners can go their whole lives without channeling. How can you cut a someone off from something they've used?

 

For example, the reason the Black Towers numbers are so large is because they have found vast numbers of learners who would ordinarily live normal lives because the Red Ajah cannot gentle them.

So I can't cut the eyes from puppies that have never used them?

 

If the Sul'dam are not using the "ability" then how do they use the adam. It's a Catch 22 again.

 

So in Seanchan "learners" are Sul'dam and "sparkers" are Damane. They both are able to use the A'dam. Whatever it is that would allow a "learner" to eventually be able to channel allows them to use the A'dam. Someone who can't channel, who has been stilled, or who has been burnt out not longer has the potential to reach the true source hence they can't use the A'dam. Whatever that intangible is that will allow someone to learn how to channel also lets them tap into the Damane through the A'dam. The last part of RJ's quote is the key.

 

Sul'dam are women who can learn, and as they develop the affinity, as they have been doing this for a little while, they begin to slide toward the ability to channel, but they never step over. I believe I have someone say that one of these women felt almost as if she should be able to channel, but not quite. They are getting closer and closer to the brink but they will never step over without conscious effort.

 

Until they make that conscious effort and learn to channel there is nothing to sever.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I fail to see why some people obsess over the fact that Sul'Dam possess the ability to learn how to channel. How is this in any way or form relevant to their role or purpose in society? If they dare to try and touch the source themselves they will simply be demoted from Sul'Dam to damane, although considering their less than savory views about the power I have my doubts that many if any would attempt to even venture down that road.

[Nooska]

I fail to see why some people obsess over the fact that Sul'Dam possess the ability to learn how to channel. How is this in any way or form relevant to their role or purpose in society? If they dare to try and touch the source themselves they will simply be demoted from Sul'Dam to damane, although considering their less than savory views about the power I have my doubts that many if any would attempt to even venture down that road.

people aren't obsessing about it right now - I instigated this with a random thought about stilling sul'dam to deny the use of the adam. Whats being discussed is if sul'dam could even be stilled, for the answers to that I refer you to the previous page and RJ's quote.

 

To finish it ioff, the ocntinuing discussion made me think af another question..

 

Someone should ask BS whether a Sul'dam count as having channeled for purposes of stilling (remember to refer to the RJ quote).

 

The big problem here that we are obsessing a bit over seems to be what the a'dam uses to distinguish between learners and non learners (not sparkers) if not the ability to channel (here defined as the ability to touch the source being something that can be cut off via severing).

[jwlee]

The Seanchan contain all sorts of evil behaviour...

 

1) Slavery of all sorts, for criminals and apparently anyone not willing to voice their oaths, how did Domon go from owning 10 ships to being a slave? I will have to read that again.

 

2) Stupid rules about meeting nobles' eyes and apparently having to practically lay on the floor anytime one came anywhere near you.

 

3) Dueling like behaviour over insults, even to common soldiers and the like, look how hard Musenge had to restrain himself during the search for Tuon.

 

4) Seekers are the equivalent of Questioners (super evil) and have major power throughout the Seanchan civilization; they aren't simply restrained to one screwed up country and organization.

 

5) The damane are not just slavery, they are a complete destruction of all humanity; reducing teenage girls, in their own country, and any age channeler over here to no more than talking dogs they use to wage war. Just think of how some of the Seanchan think of how useless the Aes Sedai are because they can't be made into weapons...ummm, isn't that why you started chaining the women up in the first place, because they could use their power to rule? Meanwhile they take Windfinders, who previously only helped their ships get around, and Kin, who were just healers, and turn them into weapons of war. It's worse than stripping away humanity, it's a complete betrayal of everything these women stood for in their former lives.

 

I don't like absolute monarchies at all, read Robin Hood or some real history to see how bad the common folk could be mistreated whenever it struck the fancy of a noble. I am not saying they are good, only that they are better, by quite a long ways, than the Seanchan. You could rebel against the High Lords of Tear, they wouldn't use the power to blow you to pieces. Look in Avi's vision to the miners that are too scared to trade with an Aeil because it might piss off the Raven Empire, doesn't sound like the Seanchan get any better over time.

 

The Seanchan may have started chaining women up who tried to use their power to rule, but it should have been a bucket of fresh water to the face when they came to the Randland and not a single country was ruled by a One Power user. The Wise Ones kind of jointly rule with the Chiefs, though in RJ's universe the women are nagging harridans (except Min), so get whatever they want; the Windfinders are very respected but subject to the Captains and maybe the trading guy on the ship. The Seanchan would only have history as a guide to Aes Sedai, but they didn't even pause in trying to chain them up. It's xenophobic idiocy, and the Tinkers only have a good life there because they live the Way of the Leaf and the Seanchan scare anybody too much to be a criminal. Let's see, would you steal a loaf of bread if the punishment for being caught was a life of enslavement? I don't think so.

 

Oh, and to be clear, both my Mother and myself think the Seanchan are worse than the Shadow. Shaitan just wants to kill you and destroy the pattern. Big Whoop, you are dead; it's better than being treated like a dog for the rest of your life (and ya, I don't own any pets).

 

ICAM. Perrin allying with the SEanchan turned my stomach and the thought of Rand having to ally with them, without them repudiating what they do with damane, is going to make me want to heave this entire story. Why RJ thought writing a series about the Seanchan would be popular as I understand he was planning to do, I don't know. There is no innocence or honor in a society that breaks people this way. RJ may disagree with me, I don't know, but this is a corrupt society and the fact that all Seanchan accept this and feel that it's ok because this is just how their culture is, is wrong. It's like the Nazis and the German people who went along with all the Nazi stuff. The Nazis were very orderly, very organized too.

[Seazo]

I have another Seanchan question. If damane live to be 500-600 years old as evidenced by Alivia and sul'dam live to 80 how come after a thousand years there are still so many more sul'dam than damane? I don't know what the ratio is maybe somebody knows but it seems like a 6 to 1 ratio would mean there are at least similiar numbers between sul'dam and damane.

[Terez]

I have another Seanchan question. If damane live to be 500-600 years old as evidenced by Alivia and sul'dam live to 80 how come after a thousand years there are still so many more sul'dam than damane? I don't know what the ratio is maybe somebody knows but it seems like a 6 to 1 ratio would mean there are at least similiar numbers between sul'dam and damane.

Ah, but it's at least 100 to 1 the other way around, with less than 1% of channelers being born with the spark (according to RJ). The fact that Narishma - the first sparker at the Black Tower - didn't show up until after they had about 100 channelers backs that up.

 

Day 584 - the Black Tower is founded

Day 604 - Taim tells Rand about Narishma

Day 614 - Rand observes that there are 'well over a hundred' men enrolled at the Black Tower

[Seazo]

Good eye. Thnx :)

[wvlr2]

Ah, but it's at least 100 to 1 the other way around, with less than 1% of channelers being born with the spark (according to RJ). The fact that Narishma - the first sparker at the Black Tower - didn't show up until after they had about 100 channelers backs that up.

 

Day 584 - the Black Tower is founded

Day 604 - Taim tells Rand about Narishma

Day 614 - Rand observes that there are 'well over a hundred' men enrolled at the Black Tower

 

I don't think that this logic works, because a very high percentage of that hundred were found to have the ability. Taim commented about it, saying that Rand's Tavern must be at work.

[Terez]

Ah, but it's at least 100 to 1 the other way around, with less than 1% of channelers being born with the spark (according to RJ). The fact that Narishma - the first sparker at the Black Tower - didn't show up until after they had about 100 channelers backs that up.

 

Day 584 - the Black Tower is founded

Day 604 - Taim tells Rand about Narishma

Day 614 - Rand observes that there are 'well over a hundred' men enrolled at the Black Tower

 

I don't think that this logic works, because a very high percentage of that hundred were found to have the ability. Taim commented about it, saying that Rand's Tavern must be at work.

You are misunderstanding. This is only in reference to men who passed the test. Narishma was the first with the spark inborn - the 'well over a hundred' could all channel.

[wvlr2]

Ah, but it's at least 100 to 1 the other way around, with less than 1% of channelers being born with the spark (according to RJ). The fact that Narishma - the first sparker at the Black Tower - didn't show up until after they had about 100 channelers backs that up.

 

Day 584 - the Black Tower is founded

Day 604 - Taim tells Rand about Narishma

Day 614 - Rand observes that there are 'well over a hundred' men enrolled at the Black Tower

 

I don't think that this logic works, because a very high percentage of that hundred were found to have the ability. Taim commented about it, saying that Rand's Tavern must be at work.

You are misunderstanding. This is only in reference to men who passed the test. Narishma was the first with the spark inborn - the 'well over a hundred' could all channel.

 

Got it now, I misunderstood what you were saying. Need more coffee.

[Terez]

Ah yes, coffee. Good for the soul. I make some horrendous posts myself in the mornings (whatever time of day they happen to be).

[Callern]

Did anyone but me catch that Fortuna means "luck" in latin?

Might this simply be wordplay from RJ's side, or could it be something more?

Speaking of which, luck, it has probably been discussed before, but I must ask.

Is Mat's luck, or luck overall in WoT, somewhat like foretelling? Luck as we know it in the real world is chance right? But as Mat is ta'veren, and the Wheel is weaving as it wills, Mat's luck, or luck overall, can not be a thing of chance (in lack of a better word)?

I thought that Mat's luck is some kind of foretelling of the most probable weaving, hence the rolling of dice in his head (that would be the calculation of the most probable outcome of a situation). I might all wrong tho, just a thought.

 

But if I am right, might this suggest that Tuon has the foretelling ability?

Apologies for any poor spelling .

[Kestrel]

Did anyone but me catch that Fortuna means "luck" in latin?

Might this simply be wordplay from RJ's side, or could it be something more?

And "Matrim" means "Economy-sized Japanese bed."

[Callern]

 

And "Matrim" means "Economy-sized Japanese bed."

witty

[Kal-El814]

The reconciliation between the Seanchan and Randland folks from the perspective of how channelers will be treated, if it's going to happen "on screen" in aMoL, seems like it has to be centered around the potential for sul'dam to channel as has been mentioned countless times. Still, I don't think that kind of systemic, cultural revolution is going to happen completely before the Last Battle but the seeds are obviously already planted; I don't think it's unreasonable to expect something to happen along those lines, or to think that it'll be centered around Fortuona.

 

I think classifying the Seanchan as evil is a too reductive for me. There are plenty of groups and factions within Randland that aren't immediately as distasteful as the treatment of damane, but are still systemically cruel. I think it's important that the people in Randland don't consistently reject the larger Seanchan traditions even when they're imposed on them via force, nor do the principal characters beyond the Seanchan treatment of channelers. Someone (Mat maybe?) noted that life didn't seem dramatically different in a Seanchan occupied city.

 

That said the damane thing really overshadows everything and I'm not trying to come off an an apologist, but... yeah. It just seems too reductive.

 

Fortuona's treatment of damane seems relevant. She's a creature of her environment, to be sure, but her treatment of damane seems to be kinder than most. I don't mean that to justify her actions, of course, but I don't think it's an insignificant aspect of her character. She also seems more willing to accommodate the traditions of Randlanders, to an extent at any rate. I'm really interested in seeing what happens to her character in aMoL. The potential confrontation between her, Rand, Mat, any Randland Aes Sedai, etc., should be really, really interesting.

[Finnssss22]

Did anyone but me catch that Fortuna means "luck" in latin?

Might this simply be wordplay from RJ's side, or could it be something more?

Speaking of which, luck, it has probably been discussed before, but I must ask.

Is Mat's luck, or luck overall in WoT, somewhat like foretelling? Luck as we know it in the real world is chance right? But as Mat is ta'veren, and the Wheel is weaving as it wills, Mat's luck, or luck overall, can not be a thing of chance (in lack of a better word)?

I thought that Mat's luck is some kind of foretelling of the most probable weaving, hence the rolling of dice in his head (that would be the calculation of the most probable outcome of a situation). I might all wrong tho, just a thought.

 

But if I am right, might this suggest that Tuon has the foretelling ability?

Apologies for any poor spelling .

 

Really makes you take another look at this prophecy don't it

 

"Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky."

[jballer08]

My apologies if this has already been addressed but has anyone raised the theory that it will be Mat loosing his eye in order to free Moiraine that will convince Tuon to rethink/call off her second strike against the White Tower and join the Light alliance? We are reminded again and again that there is a distinct human element to the characters in this series and nothing would represent that more if she realized that he sacrificed his eye and almost his life to save an Aes Sedai. She is clearly falling in love which will open her eyes more than anything else would. I think this would make the most sense in bringing that arc into the others. Thoughts?

[Tud]

You know if you take the damane off the table, then everything in Avi's vision goes away. If it comes out that Suldam can channel and the Seanchen notice that As, WF and Wo's function just fine in their respective cultures w/o being collared perhaps they'd free their damane. After all, it isn't as if they're likely to get beaten by anyone not using Ashamen even without dammane..W/O damane, they would hold the south and eveyone else would hold the west and north and there'd be no reason for the aiel to go to war..

 

You'd think that the'd wonder why those AS they collared can't be used for weapons, wouldn't you? I mean what do you think their reaction would be if they ever realized that the AS weren't dangerous ?

 

Getting back to the subject, IMHO, I think that when the Seanchen launch their big assualt, it will get crushed b/c they won't be a surprise and Gareth Byrne's army will be there to take them in the rear.Also,once he is appraised of the attack (By traveling , I'm guessing), Rand can just travel to the WT, force the Seanchen to stand down and meet with Tuon once again with a much different result since he is now no longer so dark..

 

At least I hope it eands that way...B/c when you take away the damane, there's lots good to say about the Seanchen..Well, I couldn't live in that culture but atleast no one starves and I couldn't live in most of the wetlands either...*G*

[Erunion]

Well Tud, I'm pretty sure you could live in any of those cultures. You just wouldn't enjoy it.

 

But yeah, take away the Damane and the Da'Covale then the Seanchan have a lot going for them.