Discuss Rand

[dwn]

iirc eldrene only destroyed the dreadlords not the entire army

 

Actually, this is correct according to Moiraine's rendition of the story in TEotW, and is corroborated by the account in the Guide. I was wrong on Eldrene destroying the whole army; she apparently targeted the Dreadlords, Myrddraal and Darkfriends leading the army.

 

-- dwn

Okay... WoT rookie here... If I am reading this right you are admitting that Rand pwning a hundred thousand strong shadowspawn army is unprecedented? To be clear... I am NOT trying to force my opinion here... But it would be cool of the huge hole you punched in my theory was erased.

 

I wouldn't go that far. Rand himself destroys a large part of a shadowspawn army (hundreds of fades, implying tens of thousands of trollocs) in TEotW, and he was just beginning to channel there. 'A Storm of Light' was impressive but doesn't require that Rand have some newfound power. My recall of Eldrene's story, however, was incorrect; while her channelling feat was off the charts (assuming the story is accurate), she did not personally incinerate a trolloc army.

 

-- dwn

 

If I am remembering correctly he was in a kind of dazed, dreamlike state at that point drawing on the untainted pool at the eye and I believe he destroyed most of the initial charge... Enough to turn the tide of the battle in favor of the Shienaran army. It's been over a year since I read tEotW though. Is there a clear estimate anywhere of how many shadow spawn he killed there?

 

I reread those few passages before posting above. The exact size isn't stated, but it's lead by 'hundreds' of myrddraal, with a goodly flock of draughar thrown in. That suggests a few tens of thousands of trollocs, given that we usually see 30 or so trollocs linked to each myrddraal. Rand destroys the bulk of the army, but not all. What's left is perhaps twice the size of the human army and milling around in confusion. I can't find a reference to the size of the human army, but Agelmar expected to be outnumbered at least 10 to 1.

 

-- dwn

[Cornelia]

Rand can´t exhaust his powers before the confrontation with the DO. We probably will not see much fighting during the actual battle from him. He has already stated that quite clearly after his show at Maradon.

[Jamie Kenny]

Hi,

 

First post here:

 

In relation to Rand and the True Power, we dont know that he lost access to it, so must assume that he does.

 

Lews Therin told Rand that the Power had to touch the Dark One in order to seal him away, but by touching him with saidin, it allowed for a counter attack and got tainted.

 

On that basis, my theory (which i haven't seen anywhere else, but thought was obvious) is that Rand will use the True Power to touch the Dark One and seal him away properly. If the Dark One counterstrikes against the True Power and taints it, so what, its evil anyway and surely no one can use it if he's locked up.

[Mulk]

welcome.

 

I've seen your theory in a place or two. It's not without merit. My main thought against it is that I don't believe that the Dark One can be imprisoned by using his own strength in that fashion. It would be like building a prison for the Creator out of the True Source, which he invented. The True Power doesn't exist without the Dark One, so while he gives authority for others to take from his power and do things, I don't believe that anyone could build a prison or wall against him using that power that he couldn't unravel with a thought.

 

Just my opinion. I am interested to see how they (Sanderson and Jordan) intend for Rand to overcome this obstacle.

[Jyxxer]

I've also wondered if he could use the True Power to 'touch' the DO when he seals it... but I think he was more pointing out that he was missing saidar. Somehow he has to use Callandor, plus both halves of the power to seal it again. (Unless the three become one is some form of a ta'veren captain planet)

 

I skipped most of the pages so I apologize if it has been discussed, but something new occurred to me when I was reading through the prophecies cataloged on the 13th depository. One twist at the end of the book I didn't expect was bringing Cyndane back. It makes you remember that Cyndane and Moghedien have a leash on em, but they are far from out of the game.

 

The prophecy that got me started thinking about Cyndane again was the dark prophecy in TGH. It says something to the effect of 'Daughter of the Night, she walks again to find her lost love, who will serve her, die and server her still.

 

I also have a suspicion that Min's viewing of Rand and another man touching and merging hasn't happened yet. Does any one know if Sanderson has confirmed that happened in TGS? I kinda think it might end up being Rand merging with Moridin somehow through the link.

[Jamie Kenny]

I'm glad the theory is out there elsewhere.

 

I'm not an oracle on all things WOT and plenty of people around here are; i expected the theory to have plenty of holes and for the locals to find them. i did think of your point about the TP being the DO's, but thought it fitting to that his prison be built of his own 'building blocks'. Possibly use saidar, saidin and the TP together to lock the DO up. doubt he'd be able to get out of that, but the powers probably aren't compatible. but that's getting off topic.

 

J

[Jyxxer]

I'm glad the theory is out there elsewhere.

 

I'm not an oracle on all things WOT and plenty of people around here are; i expected the theory to have plenty of holes and for the locals to find them. i did think of your point about the TP being the DO's, but thought it fitting to that his prison be built of his own 'building blocks'. Possibly use saidar, saidin and the TP together to lock the DO up. doubt he'd be able to get out of that, but the powers probably aren't compatible. but that's getting off topic.

 

J

Now wouldn't that be interesting? If the 'three shall become one' actually ends up being Saidar, Saidin, and the True Power. Maybe that's Callandor's secret.

[Mulk]

(Unless the three become one is some form of a ta'veren captain planet)

 

I stopped here. Because this was so awesome I demand that someone with actual artistic talent make a photoshop of this.

 

edit: meaning I have no art capabilities beyond writing and cooking, lest that be taken wrongly. :)

[johthohar]

I loved captain planet. Seems like they threw a pissed off animal into every episode just so the dude with the spirit ring would have something useful to do.

[StrangeCat]

I think Rand now uses a New Power I guess the Power of Light. That is what Nyneave sees when she is trying to cure his madness, Light completely surrounding him from all the darkness. This is Rand not being blind anymore, Dragon Reborn not being blind anymore(that goes for all ages) Rand has said he feels more complete then ever.

 

Dark Prophecies have not been fulfilled, I think that is why they are shown at the back of the book to show you what could have been not what will be. Perin did not die.

[Ashlyn]

welcome.

 

I've seen your theory in a place or two. It's not without merit. My main thought against it is that I don't believe that the Dark One can be imprisoned by using his own strength in that fashion. It would be like building a prison for the Creator out of the True Source, which he invented. The True Power doesn't exist without the Dark One, so while he gives authority for others to take from his power and do things, I don't believe that anyone could build a prison or wall against him using that power that he couldn't unravel with a thought.

 

Just my opinion. I am interested to see how they (Sanderson and Jordan) intend for Rand to overcome this obstacle.

 

Would it be possible to do something similar to the cleansing of the source, i.e. form the "touching" conduit out of the TP, then use saidar/saidin to build the actual seals or prison? The TP could be a type of buffer between the DO and the Dragon's weaving. Unfortunately we don't know much about how the TP interacts with the OP, so I may be way off base!

 

Edited for clarity

[Sharaman]

Use the DO as a buffer against himself? Some issues there.

[Cornelia]

I think Rand now uses a New Power I guess the Power of Light. That is what Nyneave sees when she is trying to cure his madness, Light completely surrounding him from all the darkness. This is Rand not being blind anymore, Dragon Reborn not being blind anymore(that goes for all ages) Rand has said he feels more complete then ever.

 

Dark Prophecies have not been fulfilled, I think that is why they are shown at the back of the book to show you what could have been not what will be. Perin did not die.

 

Power of Light sounds good. I always was wondering why all the Randlanders are saying things like "Light burn me!" Could this have something to do with the final solution how to get the DO reined in and sealed away without having him touching the True Source and tainting Saidar/Saidin? I think the Light we are talking about is the same which shone down on Rand on Dragonmount. He called upon the Light directly, as LTT did when he buried himself there ("Light forgive me! Ilyena!"), and the Light answered. Maybe it´s a special ability reserved for the Dragon and his special task. I don´t know if it´s the Wheel answering him or if it´s the Creator himself...

[wvlr2]

Sorry if this was mentioned before, I looked but did not see it on my skim through of the thread.

 

OK, if Rand's & LT's memories are fully integrated now. Why does he not immediately realize that a Dreamspike is being used at the BT when he can't Travel there. And knowing that, immediately understand that a someone/probably a Forsaken must be up to no good at the BT. This should immediately trigger him to take big action - not send an Ash'aman in disguise.

 

Obviously the Dreamspike is there for a reason. He knows that he just gave the WT permission to bond Ash'amen. He knows that all the Ash'amen & AS at the BT are trapped there. He should immediately take action to resolve the obvious threat. What he did in the Borderlands was important, what he did in the starving city was important -but the BT is vastly more important than either.

[Keiling]

Sorry if this was mentioned before, I looked but did not see it on my skim through of the thread.

 

OK, if Rand's & LT's memories are fully integrated now. Why does he not immediately realize that a Dreamspike is being used at the BT when he can't Travel there. And knowing that, immediately understand that a someone/probably a Forsaken must be up to no good at the BT. This should immediately trigger him to take big action - not send an Ash'aman in disguise.

 

Obviously the Dreamspike is there for a reason. He knows that he just gave the WT permission to bond Ash'amen. He knows that all the Ash'amen & AS at the BT are trapped there. He should immediately take action to resolve the obvious threat. What he did in the Borderlands was important, what he did in the starving city was important -but the BT is vastly more important than either.

 

I guess we could assume that there were possibly more things (other than the dreamspike) in the age of legends that would stop a channeller from travelling. I do get the impression that he suspects there is some bad sh!t going down at the BT though. So I guess to your second point, Rand disagrees.

[wvlr2]

I guess we could assume that there were possibly more things (other than the dreamspike) in the age of legends that would stop a channeller from travelling. I do get the impression that he suspects there is some bad sh!t going down at the BT though. So I guess to your second point, Rand disagrees.

Too many gusses for me.

 

Since we are guessing. I will make a guess that Rand will finally go to the TAR BT to try to find the Dreamspike and will run into trouble there. This is where Perrin (who also recently became aware of the possable dreamspike at the BT) will come to Rands rescue. Using his super Wolfbrother TAR Powers that he showed to Eggy. Hmm. I wonder if Perrin can add balefire to TAR just the way he erased it or Eggy. If he can "erase" it, he should be able to add it as well. He does not need to channel just "add" it to the dream. I would love to see him do that in front of Rand.

[f3llyn]

He didn't erase it. He willed the person weaving it to miss and caught it with his hand, iirc.

[Jyxxer]

Sorry if this was mentioned before, I looked but did not see it on my skim through of the thread.

 

OK, if Rand's & LT's memories are fully integrated now. Why does he not immediately realize that a Dreamspike is being used at the BT when he can't Travel there. And knowing that, immediately understand that a someone/probably a Forsaken must be up to no good at the BT. This should immediately trigger him to take big action - not send an Ash'aman in disguise.

 

Obviously the Dreamspike is there for a reason. He knows that he just gave the WT permission to bond Ash'amen. He knows that all the Ash'amen & AS at the BT are trapped there. He should immediately take action to resolve the obvious threat. What he did in the Borderlands was important, what he did in the starving city was important -but the BT is vastly more important than either.

 

 

 

 

 

This reminds me of two things from Amrylin's Anger chapter. The unopened Verin letter he received and him telling Egwene he would discuss the bonding situation a long with his other terms in Merillor. I think that traveling to the BT with the Aes Sedai will be his first step AFTER breaking the seals. He will show up, find Logain and co already in action, and somehow get pulled into TAR.

 

 

 

I guess we could assume that there were possibly more things (other than the dreamspike) in the age of legends that would stop a channeller from travelling. I do get the impression that he suspects there is some bad sh!t going down at the BT though. So I guess to your second point, Rand disagrees.

Too many gusses for me.

 

Since we are guessing. I will make a guess that Rand will finally go to the TAR BT to try to find the Dreamspike and will run into trouble there. This is where Perrin (who also recently became aware of the possable dreamspike at the BT) will come to Rands rescue. Using his super Wolfbrother TAR Powers that he showed to Eggy. Hmm. I wonder if Perrin can add balefire to TAR just the way he erased it or Eggy. If he can "erase" it, he should be able to add it as well. He does not need to channel just "add" it to the dream. I would love to see him do that in front of Rand.

This reminds me of two things from Amrylin's Anger chapter. The unopened Verin letter he received and him telling Egwene he would discuss the bonding situation a long with his other terms in Merillor. I think that traveling to the BT with the Aes Sedai will be his first step AFTER breaking the seals. He will show up, find Logain and co already in action, and somehow get pulled into TAR.

 

I think this could have such epic potential. Throughout the series we have seen things escalate in battle to more armies and more uses of the power. If Perrin and Rand are fighting in TAR where its not numbers but skill that really decide matters. I can picture it now, the one man with two souls vs two Ta'veren. Maybe ran will make a gateway and go there in the flesh so he can bring the Hopper Hammer.

 

Maybe Egwene will come there too, but I suspect her TAR moment was defeating Mesaana.

[White_star]

Papa still doesn't know. What does every one think his reaction will be to the news now?

He still thinks he is destined to die so I kinda think it might sadden him a little but maybe it will give him another reason to fight.

 

Who's reaction to learning he's the father did you guys enjoy the most?

I thought Mat's and Nynaeve's were both pretty funny . Morgase's(sp?) was ok and Gawyn's was as expected.

[f3llyn]

I always wondered about that. I have a feeling it will encourage him to try to live.

 

Maybe I misread it but the part where Elayne is talking to Mat about that she implies that Rand knows about the babies but we never see it "on screen". I'm inclined to believe that he doesn't know yet because it's never been mentioned. I find it odd that Min would never tell him. But then I guess she'd want to leave that to Elayne herself.

 

Well, being closer to Elayne now and of course he'll know as soon as he sets eyes on her. I'm sure the constant mood swings are giving him a hint through the bond.

[mossman87]

He's probably not directly confronting the BT because he knows Taim is Moridin, or his right hand man, or other information we aren't privy to. It just isn't the time, and would make him way too vulnerable (And most likely kill him) while he has other things to do. So he's going the subtle Logain, Naeff route.

 

I'm sure he realizes this is his fault now though.

[Ltsegarra]

Rands twin are causing these "good" effects around camelyn. Rand has access to the True Source AND saidin..

 

Rand realizes that he's not a real person, more like a quantum function of reality. As the scene with Perrin, the wolves, and Rand show, Rands "real" battle will be within himself. Rand hold both possibilities and potentials...your basic duality... Creator and shaitan etc. All the bad things..the bubbles of evil were cause by Rand being bitchy. Now that he's accepted and cast off his dark influence, he's affecting everything around him in a good way.

However this leaves the 13x13 rule. Will he be turned back into a vessel for the dark one? I think yes. Rands already accepted the light/creator/lew therin aspect of himself...now he'll have to face the dark/shaitan side. Just as the traditional Aes Sedai symbol(yin yang) implies in order to creator new seals I predict that Rand will "die" locking both the aspect of light and dark together..freeing himself from both lews therein and shaitan.

 

I believe that Rand will kneel before Tuon. It's implied by Aviendha vision of the future and "The dragons peace". The Aiels Pride is what causes them to reject and create a new war with the Seachan. If they could kneel and offer humility as Rand, an child of Aiel, then the future wouldmbe of peace rather than being hunted down. Robert Jordan has already wrote that the Seanchan are peaceful once they conquer a land. The Seanchan granted existing kings and queens the rights of the "blood" in exchange for oaths of fealty.

Kneeling doesn't mean giving up anything. Techniqually at this point, Rand is only the king of Tear. Elayne has separated her rule from him by controlling first Camelyn then Carhein without him.

[dwn]

It's clear that Rand does know, or at least suspect, that a dreamspike is there preventing gateways. He does, after all, tell Naeff exactly how to bypass the problem--Travel to a point outside the effect, then ride in.

 

-- dwn

[f3llyn]

Rands twin are causing these "good" effects around camelyn. Rand has access to the True Source AND saidin..

 

Rand realizes that he's not a real person, more like a quantum function of reality. As the scene with Perrin, the wolves, and Rand show, Rands "real" battle will be within himself. Rand hold both possibilities and potentials...your basic duality... Creator and shaitan etc. All the bad things..the bubbles of evil were cause by Rand being bitchy. Now that he's accepted and cast off his dark influence, he's affecting everything around him in a good way.

However this leaves the 13x13 rule. Will he be turned back into a vessel for the dark one? I think yes. Rands already accepted the light/creator/lew therin aspect of himself...now he'll have to face the dark/shaitan side. Just as the traditional Aes Sedai symbol(yin yang) implies in order to creator new seals I predict that Rand will "die" locking both the aspect of light and dark together..freeing himself from both lews therein and shaitan.

 

I believe that Rand will kneel before Tuon. It's implied by Aviendha vision of the future and "The dragons peace". The Aiels Pride is what causes them to reject and create a new war with the Seachan. If they could kneel and offer humility as Rand, an child of Aiel, then the future wouldmbe of peace rather than being hunted down. Robert Jordan has already wrote that the Seanchan are peaceful once they conquer a land. The Seanchan granted existing kings and queens the rights of the "blood" in exchange for oaths of fealty.

Kneeling doesn't mean giving up anything. Techniqually at this point, Rand is only the king of Tear. Elayne has separated her rule from him by controlling first Camelyn then Carhein without him.

 

That post is all over the place.

 

I'll try to tackle the part about Rand kneeling to Tuon. Kneeling to some one implies that you're inferior/weaker/less than whoever is being knelt to. The world cannot see their savior bow down to an arrogant brat of a teenager. Even if that person is the ruler of one of the larger standing armies.

 

It absolutely cannot happen. And for the simple reason that we "saw" it happen means that it won't happen at all. Or not nearly in the way that is obvious.

 

Also, about the twins. I don't think they are the cause of the sun unless Min got knocked up (we would have seen it from her PoV if she had) and tracked Aviendha down and had some desert loving with her as well. Because the light/sun was present where all 3 girls were so it's more likely it has to do with the bond they share.

[babuada]

Rands twin are causing these "good" effects around camelyn. Rand has access to the True Source AND saidin..

 

Rand realizes that he's not a real person, more like a quantum function of reality. As the scene with Perrin, the wolves, and Rand show, Rands "real" battle will be within himself. Rand hold both possibilities and potentials...your basic duality... Creator and shaitan etc. All the bad things..the bubbles of evil were cause by Rand being bitchy. Now that he's accepted and cast off his dark influence, he's affecting everything around him in a good way.

However this leaves the 13x13 rule. Will he be turned back into a vessel for the dark one? I think yes. Rands already accepted the light/creator/lew therin aspect of himself...now he'll have to face the dark/shaitan side. Just as the traditional Aes Sedai symbol(yin yang) implies in order to creator new seals I predict that Rand will "die" locking both the aspect of light and dark together..freeing himself from both lews therein and shaitan.

 

I believe that Rand will kneel before Tuon. It's implied by Aviendha vision of the future and "The dragons peace". The Aiels Pride is what causes them to reject and create a new war with the Seachan. If they could kneel and offer humility as Rand, an child of Aiel, then the future wouldmbe of peace rather than being hunted down. Robert Jordan has already wrote that the Seanchan are peaceful once they conquer a land. The Seanchan granted existing kings and queens the rights of the "blood" in exchange for oaths of fealty.

Kneeling doesn't mean giving up anything. Techniqually at this point, Rand is only the king of Tear. Elayne has separated her rule from him by controlling first Camelyn then Carhein without him.

 

That post is all over the place.

 

I'll try to tackle the part about Rand kneeling to Tuon. Kneeling to some one implies that you're inferior/weaker/less than whoever is being knelt to. The world cannot see their savior bow down to an arrogant brat of a teenager. Even if that person is the ruler of one of the larger standing armies.

 

It absolutely cannot happen. And for the simple reason that we "saw" it happen means that it won't happen at all. Or not nearly in the way that is obvious.

 

Also, about the twins. I don't think they are the cause of the sun unless Min got knocked up (we would have seen it from her PoV if she had) and tracked Aviendha down and had some desert loving with her as well. Because the light/sun was present where all 3 girls were so it's more likely it has to do with the bond they share.

Rand is a True AS. He would kneel to Tuon as a servant and kneel to everybody else (servant of all). So, Tuon won't get him as personal property.