Discuss Rand

[moratcorlm]

The maxim was that thirteen women linked could shield any man, i.e. cut him off from the Source. Though in TGS Rand thinks

“I’m only holding a little extra, as a precaution.” The more of the One Power a person held, the more difficult it was to shield them. If the damane tried to capture him, they would be shocked by his resilience. He might be able to resist a full circle."

So it is likely that channeling through an angreal makes you increasingly invulnerable to being shielded. But once the shield is in place it can be held by a much smaller number.

 

It wasn't the One Power that would have allowed Rand to escape Egwene had she tried to imprison him.

[johthohar]

While it is possible, I would say unlikely. If LTT was that much stronger than the rest of the male Forsaken (Ishamael, Demandred, Sammael, Aginor, Rahvin) etc., they would have been terrified to ever battle him. But we see that the strongest male Forsaken have fought him before, one-on-one confrontations, although they did lose. There has never been a mention in the series of LTT's exceptional/out of this world strength by any of the Forsaken.

 

The top males channelers seem to be clustered closer together in terms of strength, while the females are not (Lanfear being an extreme outlier with no equal thus far in this age, however in AoL we see that was not the case with her comment, "no woman can be stronger").

 

 

 

To become AS, there is a strength minimum that is required. We see that 2 AS linked were equal to Nynaeve , who is one of the strongest females, at best Nynaeve = 3 AS, possibly Lanfear =4 AS.

 

We see that around 3 linked (AS, Asha'man) were able to hold off the Forsaken during the cleansing of saidin.

 

6 AS can hold the shield on any man, has been used as a rule for 1000's of years by the White Tower.

 

Imagine the strength of 13 AS linked holding the shield. In order to break a shield held by 13, generally one has to be stronger than the 13 AS!

 

13 AS is not misinformation. Asmodean said this. Lanfear said this to Rahvin...when Ravhin pointed out how weak AS were. Lanfear said something along the lines that if 13 of these children linked...

 

To be clear, I agree with you for the most part. I think Rand is somehow vastly more powerful than he was before. That's made pretty clear by "A Storm of Light". I'm really just trying to reason how this happened through debate. And I like playing the other side from time to time.

 

Where we begin to differ is the "maximum threshold" thing. The fact that the other Forsaken were always so close to him in power even in the AoL is a bit of a hole in my theory. But I was just thinking. Maybe its something akin to the whole "humans only use 10% of their brain" thing. Is it possible the potential for channelers to control huge amounts more of the power than they had to this point always existed and Rand just somehow found a way to tap that 90%? Maybe my resistance to the idea of a maximum is irrational but I've never liked the idea of a maximum anything. Like a level cap on an RPG. "OH! Hey... You hit the top. Can't go any further! Its all downhill from here!"

 

I had more to say but I'm at work and keep getting interrupted. So, I've forgotten most of it. Maybe I'll remember it later.

[Entreri]

While it is possible, I would say unlikely. If LTT was that much stronger than the rest of the male Forsaken (Ishamael, Demandred, Sammael, Aginor, Rahvin) etc., they would have been terrified to ever battle him. But we see that the strongest male Forsaken have fought him before, one-on-one confrontations, although they did lose. There has never been a mention in the series of LTT's exceptional/out of this world strength by any of the Forsaken.

 

The top males channelers seem to be clustered closer together in terms of strength, while the females are not (Lanfear being an extreme outlier with no equal thus far in this age, however in AoL we see that was not the case with her comment, "no woman can be stronger").

 

 

 

To become AS, there is a strength minimum that is required. We see that 2 AS linked were equal to Nynaeve , who is one of the strongest females, at best Nynaeve = 3 AS, possibly Lanfear =4 AS.

 

We see that around 3 linked (AS, Asha'man) were able to hold off the Forsaken during the cleansing of saidin.

 

6 AS can hold the shield on any man, has been used as a rule for 1000's of years by the White Tower.

 

Imagine the strength of 13 AS linked holding the shield. In order to break a shield held by 13, generally one has to be stronger than the 13 AS!

 

13 AS is not misinformation. Asmodean said this. Lanfear said this to Rahvin...when Ravhin pointed out how weak AS were. Lanfear said something along the lines that if 13 of these children linked...

 

To be clear, I agree with you for the most part. I think Rand is somehow vastly more powerful than he was before. That's made pretty clear by "A Storm of Light". I'm really just trying to reason how this happened through debate. And I like playing the other side from time to time.

 

Where we begin to differ is the "maximum threshold" thing. The fact that the other Forsaken were always so close to him in power even in the AoL is a bit of a hole in my theory. But I was just thinking. Maybe its something akin to the whole "humans only use 10% of their brain" thing. Is it possible the potential for channelers to control huge amounts more of the power than they had to this point always existed and Rand just somehow found a way to tap that 90%? Maybe my resistance to the idea of a maximum is irrational but I've never liked the idea of a maximum anything. Like a level cap on an RPG. "OH! Hey... You hit the top. Can't go any further! Its all downhill from here!"

 

I had more to say but I'm at work and keep getting interrupted. So, I've forgotten most of it. Maybe I'll remember it later.

 

RJ did have ranking/levels for one power strength. OP strength has been described somewhat similar to physical strength by Asmodean, when he compared the male female difference. There are limits to normal human physical strength (minus performance enchantments, genetic experimenting).

 

When Lanfear met Alivia, "She [Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too."

Since there is a female maximum, there has to be a male one too.

[FarShainMael]

I don't think that inner musing of Lanfear can be taken as an impartial view of channeller strength, but as a boast, an arrogant declaration of what she saw as her superiority.

[johthohar]

When Lanfear met Alivia, "She [Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too."

Since there is a female maximum, there has to be a male one too.

 

FarShainMael beat me to my point here but to put it a different way, Lanfear was arrogant and power hungry in the extreme. She assumes no woman can be stronger because she thinks of herself as the pinnacle of female achievement in the One Power and has never met her equal before Alivia. You can't point to Lanfear's fallacy and claim it as fact.

[Entreri]

When Lanfear met Alivia, "She [Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too."

Since there is a female maximum, there has to be a male one too.

 

FarShainMael beat me to my point here but to put it a different way, Lanfear was arrogant and power hungry in the extreme. She assumes no woman can be stronger because she thinks of herself as the pinnacle of female achievement in the One Power and has never met her equal before Alivia. You can't point to Lanfear's fallacy and claim it as fact.

 

 

She knows she is the pinnacle of women strength because she lived in the AoL, when there were far far more channelers and likely research was conducted in this area. In such an advance age, they would have a plethora of data on soooo many subjects. Channeling was not taboo back then and the variety of research done on the OP would have been massive.

 

Granedal when she gauged Cyndane's strength (weaker than Lanfear), said it was "very rare indeed" for a woman to be stronger than her and uncommon among men, even in AoL.

 

 

However, current AS are certainly ignorant of the limits on strength, saying for instance that Sharina (stronger potential than Nyaneve) may be as strong as a woman can get.

 

 

We have yet to see any female of Lanfear's strength. Even Alivia who is "considerably stronger" than Nynaeve is likely Cyndane strength level instead of Lanfear's.

 

 

Here is a website that has done through research on female strength level:

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

[johthohar]

When Lanfear met Alivia, "She [Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too."

Since there is a female maximum, there has to be a male one too.

 

FarShainMael beat me to my point here but to put it a different way, Lanfear was arrogant and power hungry in the extreme. She assumes no woman can be stronger because she thinks of herself as the pinnacle of female achievement in the One Power and has never met her equal before Alivia. You can't point to Lanfear's fallacy and claim it as fact.

 

 

She knows she is the pinnacle of women strength because she lived in the AoL, when there were far far more channelers and likely research was conducted in this area. In such an advance age, they would have a plethora of data on soooo many subjects. Channeling was not taboo back then and the variety of research done on the OP would have been massive.

 

Granedal when she gauged Cyndane's strength (weaker than Lanfear), said it was "very rare indeed" for a woman to be stronger than her and uncommon among men, even in AoL.

 

 

However, current AS are certainly ignorant of the limits on strength, saying for instance that Sharina (stronger potential than Nyaneve) may be as strong as a woman can get.

 

 

We have yet to see any female of Lanfear's strength. Even Alivia who is "considerably stronger" than Nynaeve is likely Cyndane strength level instead of Lanfear's.

 

 

Here is a website that has done through research on female strength level:

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

I only read a bit of that article. It seems like a lot of conjecture based on little fact and a few quotes from RJ and really has no place in this debate as it is basically someone else's oppinion.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions here. Aes Sedai in the AoL were more learned yes. They weren't infallible. Maybe they did research into a maximum level of power maybe they didn't. What would be the purpose of it? Until its stated that this research has been done its not a valid argument.

 

Anyway, just because something has never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen. And science and discovery are constantly evolving. This is true in our world as well as the WoT world. "There's nothing smaller than an atom! That is preposterous! What? Where did all these protons and electrons come frome!?" "Heal severing? Impossible! We couldn't do that even in MY age before you primitives came about! What? TWO channelers have discovered a method to do this very thing?! MADNESS!!!!"

 

Its not just old things being rediscovered. New discoveries are being made as well. Nynaeve and Flinn are proof of that.

 

Also, you're contradicting yourself. In your previous post you mentioned that Alivia was even more powerful than Lanfear before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her. In fact I think you used a quote from the book. Then you said she is weaker? And then after repeatedly insisting a woman can't possibly be more powerful than Lanfear you quote Graendal as saying it was "very rare" for a woman to be more powerful than her? Maybe you're just wording your thoughts poorly but this is how I read it.

[Linda]

I only read a bit of that article. It seems like a lot of conjecture based on little fact and a few quotes from RJ and really has no place in this debate as it is basically someone else's oppinion.

 

It's a pity you only read a little bit of the article before you made your opinion. Otherwise you would have found that it contains every quote on saidar strength in the series and from RJand Brandon on absolute markers of strength such as ability to make a gateway to make what seemed to you (in the little bit you said you read) like a lot conjecture.

[johthohar]

Note: If you don't want to read me rambling for 30 minutes skip down to the last paragraph. But the rest is semi-relevant.

 

I only read a bit of that article. It seems like a lot of conjecture based on little fact and a few quotes from RJ and really has no place in this debate as it is basically someone else's oppinion.

 

It's a pity you only read a little bit of the article before you made your opinion. Otherwise you would have found that it contains every quote on saidar strength in the series and from RJand Brandon on absolute markers of strength such as ability to make a gateway to make what seemed to you (in the little bit you said you read) like a lot conjecture.

 

First of all, I am assuming from your avatar and user name that you wrote the article. If this is wrong feel free to correct me. Second, I want to make it very clear that I meant no offense by my post. Toward you or anyone else. I even almost mentioned in that same post that I would be glad to discuss it with the author if she were to post here but I thought that might almost sound hostile or condescending and that's not how I wanted to come across.

 

Now, as to my conjecture comment, there were a few key phrases in the bit I had read that stood out to me:

 

It is likely that there are 21 levels for women and 24 or 25 for men

 

This is my version of that scale and it too places large emphasis on the rankings of the Aes Sedai.

 

I have said that in my notes I have such a scale that I use to keep track of everyone, but its main use is for the lesser characters, in particular Aes Sedai, so that I can check on who should defer to whom, who should only listen a little more attentively to whom, and so forth.

 

- Robert Jordan on his blog

 

To me the bolded parts of the first two quotes indicate that you are stating your theory with out proof, i.e. conjecture. The bolded part of RJ's blog post indicates to me that, as far as this scale is concerned, the power levels weren't that important outside of the Aes Sedai and their standing among one another.

 

Now, as the author of the article has joined the discussion (or at least interjected), I've read a bit more. Please forgive me not reading the whole thing in detail. I'm actually at work right now and that is also why I'm so slow in finishing posts. The further into your article I got the less I saw words like "likely" or "my version". I'm sure the scale you wrote up is very accurate and probably very similar to RJ's scale its self.

 

The issue I took was that this is basically your theory. If Entreri had linked an interview or blog post, etc to back up their argument that would have been fine with me. But to me this was like, "Hey, here's a theory that is similar to my theory so I must be right." My reaction was likely colored by the fact that I slept about 3 hours last night and had just found out that one of my employees cannot make it to work today sticking me with a 16 hour shift after which I'll have a few hours to sleep before coming back to work. If I come off as a jerk is usually because I'm tired and work is busy. Anyway I'm rambling to I'll get to the point.

 

My knowledge in the WoT universe is relatively limited (especially when compared to yours from what I can see) so I regularly point out that many of the points I make may have already been made null and void by quotes from the authors I haven't read or passages from the books I've forgotten. And this is frequently the case. My main point in this whole discussion has been that I don't believe Lanfear's level of power is the absolute female maximum. To that end, Entriri hasn't raised a point that has convinced me otherwise. And in your article that she linked the only reference to this I saw (and again, I could have missed something) was Lanfear's extremely arrogant assertion that it was impossible to be more powerful than her. So, that's my whole thing. Or whatever... Again, I'm tired and not feeling particularly articulate right now. Sorry if any offense was taken.

[johthohar]

I only read a bit of that article. It seems like a lot of conjecture based on little fact and a few quotes from RJ and really has no place in this debate as it is basically someone else's oppinion.

 

It's a pity you only read a little bit of the article before you made your opinion. Otherwise you would have found that it contains every quote on saidar strength in the series and from RJand Brandon on absolute markers of strength such as ability to make a gateway to make what seemed to you (in the little bit you said you read) like a lot conjecture.

 

Also, what I did read of your article after I saw your post I found very well written and thought out. Not to mention meticulous. Must have taken quite some time to gather all those quotes and references.

[Terrapin]

This is an assumption and you are free to take it as such, but couldn't a male channeler's strenght be seen as a time series with periodic constraints barring progression to higher levels. We know that male channelers do not gradually increase over time but in sudden bursts. With the graduated nature of saiden, couldn't the comparisome of a channeler's strength to Rand's be viewed as a comparison to Rand's strength at a set point in time? Feel free to correct me, but I don't remember there being a statement regarding the absolute maximum a person can achieve, just the current strength a man is. There may be precepts on what the norm is or what people believe can't be achieved, but this arguement is weakened by current channelers curing severing. Time is continuous, as such, any attempt to gauge a continuous variable is done so at a set point in time. Before the measure is taken it may be noon, at 1 o'clock the measure is taken and gauged,afterward it is two. Time has passed and as such the data you are analyzing may have been altered by some occurance. Correlation between explanitory variables means that when one explanitory variable changes it may cause a change in another explanitory variable. Taken together, this change will cause an increase or decrease in the explained variable, strength in saiden. One can also use a growth calculation to explain a change. Assuming no negative growth, at time t we are at X strength, time passes and growth may be 0 or have increased by some percentage. If no growth, then we are still at X. If growth, then we are at X(1+%).

 

Time has passed since Rand's comparison to Sammael and illustrated in a storm of light, a variable may have changed. Some factor has caused this change, attribute it to whatever you see fit. Over time, a change in some variable may increase or decrease your dependent variable, variable of interest, what that isn't known right now.

 

All I'm getting at is that I don't believe that Rand was at some predetermined max strength. He has found a key of sorts to allow him to progress to a higher ability. Previously, he was limited by some constraint on his growth ability and an occurance has allowed him to pass the constraint and achieve a higher level of output, greater ability in saiden.

 

Feel free to disprove my assumptions, it won't hurt my feelings and may lead to a better understandingon my part.

 

Cheers

[johthohar]

A bunch of stuff. Most of which I didn't understand.

 

But it sounded really smart, so, I agree.

[Crael123]

I do not think Lanfear is as strong as you can get. I think the only limit to the power is if one holds ALL of it. like every bit of Saidar that spins the wheel which is impossible. And Lanfear is just arrogent.

 

Rand... He is the strongest ever. He annihilated forsaken who were the strongest of the shadow in its prime, when he was basically just starting. He killed aginor the first time basically he channeled consciously and Aginor was the strongest Male forsaken next to Ishmael. He killed Rahvin, (yes with an angreal, but wasnt it weak?) when he was barely trained, and Ishmael, greatest of them all, when he was even less. He said he could have killed Lanfear but he CHOSE not too or could not bring himself too in Fires of Heaven... When he was half trained.

 

So lets not say he cant do something because honestly we have no idea what he is capable of. look at a storm of light. Nobody could have done that ever except with massive sa angreal. and he was just with himself. So i think he could have ripped that circle open if he chose to, but allowed himself to be bound.

 

 

and also didnt alivia have an angreal from Nyveave?

[f3llyn]

While it is possible, I would say unlikely. If LTT was that much stronger than the rest of the male Forsaken (Ishamael, Demandred, Sammael, Aginor, Rahvin) etc., they would have been terrified to ever battle him. But we see that the strongest male Forsaken have fought him before, one-on-one confrontations, although they did lose. There has never been a mention in the series of LTT's exceptional/out of this world strength by any of the Forsaken.

 

The top males channelers seem to be clustered closer together in terms of strength, while the females are not (Lanfear being an extreme outlier with no equal thus far in this age, however in AoL we see that was not the case with her comment, "no woman can be stronger").

 

 

 

To become AS, there is a strength minimum that is required. We see that 2 AS linked were equal to Nynaeve , who is one of the strongest females, at best Nynaeve = 3 AS, possibly Lanfear =4 AS.

 

We see that around 3 linked (AS, Asha'man) were able to hold off the Forsaken during the cleansing of saidin.

 

6 AS can hold the shield on any man, has been used as a rule for 1000's of years by the White Tower.

 

Imagine the strength of 13 AS linked holding the shield. In order to break a shield held by 13, generally one has to be stronger than the 13 AS!

 

13 AS is not misinformation. Asmodean said this. Lanfear said this to Rahvin...when Ravhin pointed out how weak AS were. Lanfear said something along the lines that if 13 of these children linked...

 

To be clear, I agree with you for the most part. I think Rand is somehow vastly more powerful than he was before. That's made pretty clear by "A Storm of Light". I'm really just trying to reason how this happened through debate. And I like playing the other side from time to time.

 

Where we begin to differ is the "maximum threshold" thing. The fact that the other Forsaken were always so close to him in power even in the AoL is a bit of a hole in my theory. But I was just thinking. Maybe its something akin to the whole "humans only use 10% of their brain" thing. Is it possible the potential for channelers to control huge amounts more of the power than they had to this point always existed and Rand just somehow found a way to tap that 90%? Maybe my resistance to the idea of a maximum is irrational but I've never liked the idea of a maximum anything. Like a level cap on an RPG. "OH! Hey... You hit the top. Can't go any further! Its all downhill from here!"

 

I had more to say but I'm at work and keep getting interrupted. So, I've forgotten most of it. Maybe I'll remember it later.

 

RJ did have ranking/levels for one power strength. OP strength has been described somewhat similar to physical strength by Asmodean, when he compared the male female difference. There are limits to normal human physical strength (minus performance enchantments, genetic experimenting).

 

When Lanfear met Alivia, "She [Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too."

Since there is a female maximum, there has to be a male one too.

If that's the case maybe Rand losing his hand has something to do with it. His channeling ability increased drastically to compensate for the lack of a hand. Implausible, I know, but it's something. Similar to how if a person loses their eye sight their other senses become more acute.

 

About Alivia, she was using all of Nynaeve's angreals. The belt and the finger rings. Remember Nynaeve was made to give them up because she would be using the access keys? I can't believe no one else remembers that.

[Guest excalibur]

first thing first, alivia used a very powerful angreal loaned by nynaeve, the belt is a well not an angrael. now i am not hear to argue, discuss or dabate just to put down my own personal opinions down as what i read in these posts on this board and i was thinking what drivel, from what some people on this board wrote about how the last book will be i thought thank god they are not writers, i would not have even started reading the wheel of time, i actually even wonder if they read the books or they just want what they want to happen regardless of the clues robert jordan left us throughout the series. i am not a big fan of sanderson, this book makes it even more obvious, i used to love mat and hate perrin, but perrin actually came better than mat, mat just does not click with sanderson. if you want to know alittle of what might happen aT THE FIELD of merilor, look to the firs of heaven from the paasage at the end from the fourth age,the clues are all there, but people dont really read. i knew so long ago that he was gonna reintegrate with who he used to be, it was so obvious as soon as he he had the memories, he had need of of the greatest man of the age of legends memories if he was gonna face the dark one and he will face the dark one in battle not ishmael, and he cannot face that with a farmers knowledge or luck. second point sanderson is trying to be to politically correct when it come to the book, jordan tried to show us how arrogant, minipulative and power hungry the women of the wheel of time had become, sanderson is trying to slowly make them look good even though they are stupid as ever, let me not even talk about egwene, rand needs to show that he rules not her but somehow with sanderson that will not happen, i guess the people behind the scene did not like how women in the wheel of time where portrayed, so with jordan dead. they can fix that. that whole aiel thing with aviendha, did not sound like jordan, i get a feeling sanderson took the most liberties there, because it all leading up to aviedha saying she is going to not have the dragond children, and we will finally have mins viewing proven wrong, i sanderson is trying to be politically correct, here not good to have one man have three wives! it demeens real world women, in the real world.and people miss the most obvious things, that body swap theory is absolute nonsense, heres why the, true power corrupts and decays the body the more you use it, remember ishmaels body after rand killed him! so lets see rand swapping bodies with moridin who uses the true power all the time, so he will live on in a evil corrupted body. another why have take wounds, lose his hand and so on if he can just escape that by swapping bodies. another graendal says that moridin sound like the great lord, the clue is right in our faces, but no one noticed. basically whats gonna happen is that the dark one is gonna take over moridins body to fight rand on the mortal plane and most likely ishmael and rands soul will merge, giving all his knowledge, experiences and skills to rand just like the rand/ lews therin thing and ishmael himself dies forever as he wanted.

the cyndane thing at the last is a trap, but she will give usefull information on the bore,sanderson cant seem to express love and emotion, i was very disapponted with elayne, shealways showeed great love for rand, but all we got from was fond, with no real fighting for her man, there so much more i can go on about, but i actually felt let down, same as i felt when i read tgs and what is iwith sanderson cant he give us accurate figures, i hate reading thousand, tens of thousand, maybe even hundreds of thousands. and he definitly needs to stop trying to keep all the books to 800 pages, it feels rushed with lots of stuff missing, if this happens for amol, its gonna be a disaster, if rand actaully bows to tuon, that will be damn sad, the were some good parts, perrin witnessing rands transformation, rand really bitch slapping cadsuene down and he did bitch slap in a very cultured and educated way, a storm of light, but sanderson forgot arrows of fire and blosoms of fire, buts thats basically it.

[Entreri]

When Lanfear met Alivia, "She [Alivia] was stronger than Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn had held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have an angreal, too."

Since there is a female maximum, there has to be a male one too.

 

FarShainMael beat me to my point here but to put it a different way, Lanfear was arrogant and power hungry in the extreme. She assumes no woman can be stronger because she thinks of herself as the pinnacle of female achievement in the One Power and has never met her equal before Alivia. You can't point to Lanfear's fallacy and claim it as fact.

 

 

She knows she is the pinnacle of women strength because she lived in the AoL, when there were far far more channelers and likely research was conducted in this area. In such an advance age, they would have a plethora of data on soooo many subjects. Channeling was not taboo back then and the variety of research done on the OP would have been massive.

 

Granedal when she gauged Cyndane's strength (weaker than Lanfear), said it was "very rare indeed" for a woman to be stronger than her and uncommon among men, even in AoL.

 

 

However, current AS are certainly ignorant of the limits on strength, saying for instance that Sharina (stronger potential than Nyaneve) may be as strong as a woman can get.

 

 

We have yet to see any female of Lanfear's strength. Even Alivia who is "considerably stronger" than Nynaeve is likely Cyndane strength level instead of Lanfear's.

 

 

Here is a website that has done through research on female strength level:

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html

 

I only read a bit of that article. It seems like a lot of conjecture based on little fact and a few quotes from RJ and really has no place in this debate as it is basically someone else's oppinion.

 

You're making a lot of assumptions here. Aes Sedai in the AoL were more learned yes. They weren't infallible. Maybe they did research into a maximum level of power maybe they didn't. What would be the purpose of it? Until its stated that this research has been done its not a valid argument.

 

Anyway, just because something has never happened before doesn't mean it can't happen. And science and discovery are constantly evolving. This is true in our world as well as the WoT world. "There's nothing smaller than an atom! That is preposterous! What? Where did all these protons and electrons come frome!?" "Heal severing? Impossible! We couldn't do that even in MY age before you primitives came about! What? TWO channelers have discovered a method to do this very thing?! MADNESS!!!!"

 

Its not just old things being rediscovered. New discoveries are being made as well. Nynaeve and Flinn are proof of that.

 

Also, you're contradicting yourself. In your previous post you mentioned that Alivia was even more powerful than Lanfear before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her. In fact I think you used a quote from the book. Then you said she is weaker? And then after repeatedly insisting a woman can't possibly be more powerful than Lanfear you quote Graendal as saying it was "very rare" for a woman to be more powerful than her? Maybe you're just wording your thoughts poorly but this is how I read it.

 

You are misreading what I said.

 

I never said Alivia without aid is more powerful than Lanfear. Alivia had an angreal when she fought Cyndane, that is why she was much stronger.

 

Granedal states that it was "very rare indeed" for a woman to be stronger than her/Granedal, even in the AoL. This is when she is measuring Cyndane's strength. Cyndane is "weaker" than Lanfear.

 

Lanfear was stronger than Cyndane.

 

 

 

What you are talking about it making selected discoveries.

 

What I am talking about is OP strength. Given that AoL population was far greater, and channler population would have been greater still proportionally than it is now (no culling of the males), it is very likely they knew how strong someone can become.

[Entreri]

I do not think Lanfear is as strong as you can get. I think the only limit to the power is if one holds ALL of it. like every bit of Saidar that spins the wheel which is impossible. And Lanfear is just arrogent.

 

Rand... He is the strongest ever. He annihilated forsaken who were the strongest of the shadow in its prime, when he was basically just starting. He killed aginor the first time basically he channeled consciously and Aginor was the strongest Male forsaken next to Ishmael. He killed Rahvin, (yes with an angreal, but wasnt it weak?) when he was barely trained, and Ishmael, greatest of them all, when he was even less. He said he could have killed Lanfear but he CHOSE not too or could not bring himself too in Fires of Heaven... When he was half trained.

 

So lets not say he cant do something because honestly we have no idea what he is capable of. look at a storm of light. Nobody could have done that ever except with massive sa angreal. and he was just with himself. So i think he could have ripped that circle open if he chose to, but allowed himself to be bound.

 

 

and also didnt alivia have an angreal from Nyveave?

 

 

Lanfear is as strong as one can get for a female. According to Granedal it was "very rare indeed" even in AoL for someone to be stronger than Granedal (this is when she is measuring "weaker" Cyndane)

 

Yes, Alivia who is "considerably" stronger than Nyaneve had an angreal when she fought Cyndane.

 

He said he could have killed Lanfear...Yes, using balefire. There was no other way, Lanfear was far stronger than, and was completely man handling him, he could not believe her strength. Why? Lanfear had a near sa'angreal strength angreal (which Moraine now has), while Rand only had an average angreal and had now gained his full power (plus lack of knowledge in OP).

 

Anyway, in raw strength males are much stronger, having several levels more than the females. However, the strongest women can do pretty much anything the strongest men can, according to RJ.

 

I would say the male maximum is LTT/Ishamael level. IMO, Rand had some how gone above that maximum, as shown in ToM. We will see more conclusive evidence either way in AMoL.

 

Aginor died because he was greedy, trying to handle too much of the OP.

[Sharaman]

Please let this not degenerate into a strength of channelers discussion. Eventually the mods step and ban those threads after everybody has gone round and round a few dozen times.

[johthohar]

Please let this not degenerate into a strength of channelers discussion. Eventually the mods step and ban those threads after everybody has gone round and round a few dozen times.

 

Agreed. While I'm still extremely frustrated that Entreri won't acknowledge several of the points I've made. Lol. This started with "How did Rand gain so much badassery?" and somehow went from that to "Lanfear is the bomb! No she's just an arrogant witch!" We really should get back on topic though. I just don't really know where to start.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Please let this not degenerate into a strength of channelers discussion. Eventually the mods step and ban those threads after everybody has gone round and round a few dozen times.

 

Agreed. While I'm still extremely frustrated that Entreri won't acknowledge several of the points I've made. Lol. This started with "How did Rand gain so much badassery?" and somehow went from that to "Lanfear is the bomb! No she's just an arrogant witch!" We really should get back on topic though. I just don't really know where to start.

 

The mods usually ban those threads because people start getting themselves into heated arguments and become extremely rude. I know. I've seen it happen.

[johthohar]

Please let this not degenerate into a strength of channelers discussion. Eventually the mods step and ban those threads after everybody has gone round and round a few dozen times.

 

Agreed. While I'm still extremely frustrated that Entreri won't acknowledge several of the points I've made. Lol. This started with "How did Rand gain so much badassery?" and somehow went from that to "Lanfear is the bomb! No she's just an arrogant witch!" We really should get back on topic though. I just don't really know where to start.

 

The mods usually ban those threads because people start getting themselves into heated arguments and become extremely rude. I know. I've seen it happen.

 

Define: Extremely rude........

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

Please let this not degenerate into a strength of channelers discussion. Eventually the mods step and ban those threads after everybody has gone round and round a few dozen times.

 

Agreed. While I'm still extremely frustrated that Entreri won't acknowledge several of the points I've made. Lol. This started with "How did Rand gain so much badassery?" and somehow went from that to "Lanfear is the bomb! No she's just an arrogant witch!" We really should get back on topic though. I just don't really know where to start.

 

The mods usually ban those threads because people start getting themselves into heated arguments and become extremely rude. I know. I've seen it happen.

 

Define: Extremely rude........

 

Posts becoming more of personal attacks than debating the actual subject.

[johthohar]

Anyway.... So, Rand..... He's pretty cool, huh?

[Val Mickey]

We know that Rand is now totally in his element, as devious as LTT, as calm as an AS, as honest as Tam and as dangerous as a clan of Aiel. So why the meeting at FoM? It cannot be that they go pub-hopping afterward. He wants to extract a price on the monarchs of the world, and probably will fulfill the 'cutting the wetlands into two' dream here, but I do not believe it will be as simple as that. This is a Bait. The Shadow cannot miss an opportunity to assassinate all of the world's leaders at one sitting, or maybe attack their cities while they are not there. I'm betting there's a Portal Stone at FoM.

[f3llyn]

We know that Rand is now totally in his element, as devious as LTT, as calm as an AS, as honest as Tam and as dangerous as a clan of Aiel. So why the meeting at FoM? It cannot be that they go pub-hopping afterward. He wants to extract a price on the monarchs of the world, and probably will fulfill the 'cutting the wetlands into two' dream here, but I do not believe it will be as simple as that. This is a Bait. The Shadow cannot miss an opportunity to assassinate all of the world's leaders at one sitting, or maybe attack their cities while they are not there. I'm betting there's a Portal Stone at FoM.

True enough, Rand could be intending to weed out some more Dark Friends from his armies. He doesn't know that Egwene has cleansed the White Tower with Verin's help of the Black Ajah so he could be intended to hunt down some of those as well. The only problem with that was that he was already in Tar Valon, so he should have seen there weren't any, or any present at the time at any rate.