sea folk bargains

[Anajon]

I was wondering what everyone else thinks about the reason for these bargains the sea folks make, acquiring land in Andor and where else?

 

I know RJ said that not all threats are going to be concluded in AMOL - but why put it in, in the first place if it is not important?

 

Any theories?

[Guest cwestervelt]

To show that the Seafolk aren't as great of bargainers as everyone thinks maybe? After all, the land doesn't need to be on water, and, arguably, once all of the nations have there own king/queen, the Seafolk don't even have to be given anything.

[Guest Egwene]

hmmm.... there are a few places in the world that aren't big, but....

 

Think of Monaco, Gibraltar, Hong Kong (before return to China).... seems that somtimes a lot of money hangs around small places...

[Guest cwestervelt]

I was trying to be a little flippant. :oops:

 

There is some basis for what I said though. Take Andor. Elayne doesn't acknowledge Rand as her Liege Lord. Since she sees Andor as a sovereign nation, the Bargain with the Coramoor doesn't apply. If she gets the throne of Cairhien, then the same applies there. If she grants the land, she is accepting Rand's overlordship.

 

Before anyone starts to comment, I know that I'm splitting hairs. By right of conquest, the thrones of both Andor and Cairhien are Rand's to give, not Elayne's to claim whether she wants to believe that or not.

[Moric]

Ah, but that means that you must aknowledge (spelling?) that "Might makes right". Which many doesn't.

 

Moric

[Guest cwestervelt]

Ah' date=' but that means that you must aknowledge (spelling?) that "Might makes right". Which many doesn't.

 

Moric[/quote']

 

Not "might makes right" per say. The Andoran nobles willingly allowed there rightful ruler to be supplanted by "Gaebril". It's not like he compelled all of them. Those in positions of power who could have opposed him (Pelivar, Luan, Dylin) chose to do nothing. Morgase was deposed from within, not from without. Rand then defeated Gaebril and set himself up as Steward. If it weren't for that, Elayne wouldn't have a throne to claim, and no position to claim it from. In truth, she owes her throne to Rand al'Thor even though she is too much of a snob to admit it.

[Paradoxic]

The kings and queens will honor what Rand agreed to for fear of losing trade with the Sea Folk. Because the crown gains revenue off every bit of cargo that goes through their ports, it would be very bad for them to upset the largest group of traders (who also have the fastest ships and thus move the most amount of cargo per time period).

 

The sea folk want these sections of land so that they don't have to remain bound to their islands. As it stands, their homes are a number of islands out to sea. As proven by recent events, these islands can easily be taken (such as the Seanchan have done), leaving the sea folk without any home. Furthermore, having land that they own in these cities allows them to set up industry and administration within the cities they do their business in. They can go to inns staffed by their own people instead of foreigners; they can see familiar sights, eat familiar foods, and have more opportunity to trade with other sea folk that they know will not be so dishonorable as to cheat them. It is also better for business to be able to store goods for the future. For example, a captain may get a great deal on furs in the spring... store them at a dock in one of their cities... then sell them come winter. They make a major profit and do not have to waste valuable cargo space on goods they would have to hold onto for 6+ months.

[Bob T Dwarf]

All very true, but...

 

In one of her POV's Elayne thinks about how foolish Rand was to try to "give" her the throne, because the Andorans would never accept anyone they thought of as a puppet. She has to secure the throne for herself, because that's the only way there will ever be any stability in Andor.

 

Snob or not, she's the one who arm-wrestled him into both a bond and her bed. That argues that she considers him a worthy consort and companion.

 

Paradoxic -

 

That's a very good take on why the Sea Folk made land part of the price for the agreements they negotiated.

[Guest cwestervelt]

There are advantages to the Seafolk yes. I don't know that I would agree with the kings/queens honoring the agreements for long though. They are obviously not too concerned about pissing off the Seafolk. The one instance that I can think of in which we saw talk of land being set aside, the selected land was deliberately placed away from the water. That's going to piss the Seafolk off just as much, if not more, than the land not being set aside at all. They aren't going to be happy needing to come and go through customs twice just to go from there ship to their inn.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I should reiterate my reason the Bargain, especially within Andor, won't/can't be kept. Elayne is paranoid that anything that shows the slightest possibility of Rand being above her will lose her the throne. If she honors the Seafolk Bargain with the Coramoor, she acknowledges his authority over her.

[Bob T Dwarf]

She had a big part in negotiating the deal that got them use of the Bowl of the Winds. That was a very unfavorable deal. She's got more to worry about from Egwene ( or Elaida ) for the terms of that deal than she could ever have to worry about from Rand's deal.

[Guest cwestervelt]

She had a big part in negotiating the deal that got them use of the Bowl of the Winds. That was a very unfavorable deal. She's got more to worry about from Egwene ( or Elaida ) for the terms of that deal than she could ever have to worry about from Rand's deal.

 

Theoretically Elayne will lose the throne of Andor by honoring Rand's deal with the Seafolk. She sees any aid in securing the throne from outside as the ultimate doom for her claims because the Andoran citizens will see her as a puppet of a foreign power. By extension, that would mean that honoring Rand'd deal would be submitting to a foreign power which would then loose her the Throne. The Aes Sedai have been besides themselves that the next Queen of Andor is going to be not just Tower trained, but a full Sister. She's damned no matter what she does as she's going to be seen as either a Tower puppet or a Dragon Reborn puppet. She only sees the risk of the Dragon Reborn puppet so she would have to choose against Rand eventually. Loosing the Throne and thus Aes Sedai control of Andor would get her in about the most hot water possible.

 

Elayne and Nynaeve have already started honouring their deal with the Seafolk and Egwene is already aware of it now. It is Egwene's problem now and she is the one who will suffer any consequences. To most of the Aes Sedai, Elayne and Nynaeve aren't really Aes Sedai and a couple of "children" aren't going to satisfy the Hall when that one hits the fan. Egwene however, risks becoming a figure head in truth as they were working under her authority and by her choosing.

[Paradoxic]

Setting the land away from the coast is just a tricky interpretation of the bargin. The seafolk cannot be upset over the ruler doing that because it was not stipulated in the beginning (of course, the persons who failed to consider this may get in a bit of hot water over it). It is decidedly different from just saying "yeah, about that land... bugger off, we're not giving it to you".

[Guest cwestervelt]

At the time of the agreement it was well known that the Seafolk intended it to be along the water giving them a way to make the customer come to them and thus pay all customs duty. As such, the Seafolk would have concidered it implicit in the deal. They will see it as just as much of a violation of the agreement as never getting the land.

 

To take it even further, the Seafold didn't make a deal with the Dragon Reborn, they made a deal with the Coramoor. The Coramoor isn't a recognized figure by anyone other than the Seafolk. Cadsuane summed it up quite nicely on page 305 of Winter's Heart.

 

I do not care a fig for your Coramoor," Cadsuane continued, her voice still mild. All the figs in the world for the Dragon Reborn, but not one for the Coramoor.

[Paradoxic]

Implicit nothing, one must assume that a bargain is followed no further than the letters on the paper.

[Bob T Dwarf]

CW -

 

Do yourself a favor and read KoD.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Bob, I know the land is being set asside if that is what you are referring to. That starts happening in Crossroads of Twilight. In fact, I believe it is within Andor that they start. I'm just saying that there is no reason for the individual rulers, especially Elayne, to carry it through and maintain it.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I repeat what I said above.

[Anajon]

She had a big part in negotiating the deal that got them use of the Bowl of the Winds. That was a very unfavorable deal. She's got more to worry about from Egwene ( or Elaida ) for the terms of that deal than she could ever have to worry about from Rand's deal.

 

Theoretically Elayne will lose the throne of Andor by honoring Rand's deal with the Seafolk. She sees any aid in securing the throne from outside as the ultimate doom for her claims because the Andoran citizens will see her as a puppet of a foreign power. By extension' date=' that would mean that honoring Rand'd deal would be submitting to a foreign power which would then loose her the Throne. [/size']

 

Hi, lots of good ideas, but people confuse some things.

There are three deals (at least) with the seafolk.

The one about the bowl of winds (nothing to do with Rand at all, Aes Sedai business)

Then the one between Rand and the seafolk , worked out by two of Rand's Aes Sedai (forgot whom) and then one between Elayne and the Seafolks (when they leave for the election of the new mistress of the ships, Elyane wants some windfinders to stay behind (because of the food supplies. The deal is thats he gives some land of Andor to the seafolk.

 

So two seafolk bargainers (who i think don't know of each other) ask for the same thing!

There must be some importance in that.

[Anajon]

there are two other things about the sea folk that bothers me.

1. They ask Nyn to teach them how to shield a woman - BUT the windfinder who rides with Rand into Far Madding - thinks by herself that she learn shielding during her training - so they are keeping from Nyn, that they already know that! What else do they know?

 

2. the apprentice that is gone to the white tower or is on her way - is she going to play a role in Ewgene against Elaida or in the attack of the tower? Is she just another red herring?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Interesting point about the Shielding lesson. If I remember right, Shalon refers to being Sheilded as being "Sheathed" in her PoV. They've known how to do it long enough to have developed there own name for it.

[DemandredFO]

Rather than start a new thread I'll just use an old one.  I have two questions  1.  Why was the windfinder in tSR so different from the others in future books?  2.  what do you think the effects of Mat's freeing of Seafolk demane be?

[RAND AL THOR]

The Shipmistress and Windfinder in TSH were really pleasant. Either its their nature, or else they gave AS special respect since they were on a mission related to the Coramoor.

 

But I think it is their personal character.

[CUBAREY]

  2.  what do you think the effects of Mat's freeing of Seafolk demane be?

 

Just a wild guess but I think it would have played a role in the outrigger novel centered on Mat and Tuon's reconquest of the Seanchen Empire ten years after TG. The Seafarer's would feel beholden to Mat for freeing them wish permitted at least some of them to escape. Through Mat the seafarer's and the Seanchen in Randland make peace and the Seafarer's carry Tuon's army bach to Seanchen to start the reconquest.

[wconn1979]

I just really have started to not like the Seafolk, the way they acted toward Nynaeve and Elayne there at the end put my teeth on edge.  But the way Elayne and Nynaeve act towards men, do as well.