Discuss The Forsaken

[Cazajay]

So you don't think the FS are Evil? So Asmodean severing his own mother from the source that protects her and giving her to Myrdraal to abuse her and then feed her ALIVE to trollocs isn't mind shudderingly evil?

They are all serial killers not only do they enjoy torturing another human in increasingly inventive ways they have fed and would feed whole cities to trollocs young, old, women and children. Some of the victims souls are used to forge Dark swords for Myrdrall. Can you imagine being that soul forever trapped?

They force innocent channellers to turn from the light imagine the fear of being trapped, shielded and surrounded about to be forced to the Shadow through weaves of one power filtered through Myrdraal whose very look insights fear. Imagine knowing a part of you that's still good won't

have control locked behind the eyes forever forced to watch and endure atrocities commited by your own hand and unable to stop it.

Not exactly deeds of a normal human, if you are bored by the lack of fancy weaving by the FS you forget they have faced Rand who won as his memories of AoL and instinct came to the fore half the time Rand had no idea what he was weaving but the FS did and realised he knew stuff they did and feared him. They are cowards prefering to keep their skin intact by working in the shadows, no pun intended. Lol

Also we the readers and the FS underestimated the knowledge and skill of the current Age Aes Sedai due to the Myths and stories making the FS sound more, well just More!! In their arrogance they believed their own hype a case of experience over talent.

If I was to compare the FS Moghedien with someone like Nynaeve Id say it's like a person who practiced Ballet from the age of 3 onwards to around 30 and had every bit of the technique precise and all of the knowledge with it. But in an audition they are beaten to the role of Prima Ballerina by a young very talented new dancer, who knows less but somehow naturally dances better than the older and more experienced Dancer.

[sdelu]

Even if they are "just people" they're still some of the strongest channelers the AoL had to offer, and they're being upstaged by people who have a fraction of their knowledge.

 

It doesn't matter how "arrogant" or how "human" a master chess player is, he would still obliterate me.

 

Rand is really the ONLY light channeler who should stand a chance against one of the Forsaken. Nynaeve I can accept also because she was always touted as strong... but the rest of them?

 

They may be arrogant, they may have reputations beefed up because the growth of legends, but they should still be able to kill people who have nowhere near their knowledge.

 

So I don't buy that "they're just human" or that "the pattern won't let them" -- that's a bunch of bull. The fact of the matter is that RJ didn't kill off any characters and the story feels cheapened because of this reluctance.

 

 

Now, as for the Forsaken in this book, I don't think there's much to say. They once again prove their uselessness.

 

And Graendal's "escape" is shown to be a complete deus ex machina, since she's so "brilliant" she can't even figure out how to kill Perrin. Here's an easy plan that requires no brilliance: while he sleeps in the wolf dream, set his tent on fire. (Though I'm sure if she did that, the pattern would have a rainstorm sweep in, flash flood wherever she's standing and drown her.)

 

Phaw.

[Ahaz Flagg]

At the end of the day, The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. Simple as that, this is story based on that Quote. So everything that has happend was supposed to happen. :) How do any of you know what the DO had planned, he let Rand kill semi for a point, how do you know the others were not for a point. :) This story was never about the forsaken, and so we do not share what the DO's plans were period.

 

 

I still think you all are way over rating these PEOPLE!!

[Bob T Dwarf]

At the end of the day, The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills. Simple as that, this is story based on that Quote. So everything that has happend was supposed to happen. :) How do any of you know what the DO had planned, he let Rand kill semi for a point, how do you know the others were not for a point. :) This story was never about the forsaken, and so we do not share what the DO's plans were period.

 

 

I still think you all are way over rating these PEOPLE!!

 

Couldn't care less about those PEOPLE. What I care about is a good yarn. What Jordan has given us is a long ride with the denizens of the short bus.

 

He began with a dynamite premise. The first book was good. But then who appears in the Prologue of the second book but the Bad Guy who supposedly died at the end of the first book. Weak. And all it's done is get weaker since. No tension. No menace. No villains worthy of the station. Weak, weak, halt, lame, blind, deaf, and dumb.

 

All of the Forsaken have ugly, nasty rap sheets. I really, really want to hate them. After seeing them in action, I can't. They ARE pathetic. The Seanchan, the Aes Sedai are more unreservedly evil on a day-to-day basis than anybody on Team Dark.

 

It's sad. It's a waste of a wonderful premise.

[Owayn The Traveller]

There is still the last book to redeem themselves.

[Rand Skywalker]

There is still the last book to redeem themselves.

 

I "like" the Forsaken and enjoy reading their plots and machinations. Their role made a lot more sense to me when I read in later books about how the Last Battle will not necessarily be fought like we may think (decided with big clashing armies and a quick channel at the bore). This was of course forshadowed earlier, notably with "let the Lord of Chaos rule." With all the chaos in the world and wonky stuff happening (food spoilage, ghosts, cities disappearing, rearranging architecture, etc) with the pattern weakening maybe the Forsaken haven't failed as much as we may think. Masaana caused chaos and descent in the WT, Semirhage untold suffering and turmoil in Seanchan, Sammael and Graendal messing with the Shaido (just ask poor Perrin the emotional torment THAT stirred up), and so forth.

 

I also appreciated Moridin's council to Graendal, that if she attacked him he WOULD get away (presumably due to his Ta'veren nature).

[Owayn The Traveller]

Yeah they had done stuff but for example the dispersion of the Shaido by Sammael was really just a side plot on his part. For all the obvious power and skill they haven't achieved much. To be honest their mainly just a distraction for Rand and the light whilst Moridin, Shadair Haran and the Great Lord get on with the real job. Misdirection, the glamour, the flashing lights and fireworks, etc. That's what they are. So in that way the get an A+ from the Dark One. I think Verin's comment to Egwene in tGS is spot on about them.

 

Why any of them have came back from the grave Ill never see. Well maybe some of them are needed but the Gars, heck no. Pointless and useless.

[dwn]

The problem with the Forsaken is manifold.

 

First, I think Bob T Dwarf is correct in describing the Forsaken as 'naughty' rather than 'evil'. Most people--indeed most authors--equate evil with 'gross' or 'nasty' or 'naughty', but that's like equating the symptoms of a disease with the infection itself. It's a shallow and immature way of seeing it.

 

Second, as others have mentioned above, is that RJ intended the reality of the Forsaken to be less than the legendary 13 demons of darkness they were made out to be. While this is an excellent bit of storytelling, I think he went too far with it.

 

Third, and most important to the story, is the compressed time scale of WoT. The Forsaken might have been the Hitlers and Stalins and Elizabeth Bathorys of their era, but in the AoL they had decades to build their power bases and corrupt people around them. In the 3rd age they've had, at best, two years to work. Perhaps given time, Andor, Tear and Illian would have sunk deeply into shadow, but in each case the Forsaken drilling holes in the hull found himself swimming with a lionfish. Now, this is an explanation, not an excuse; the story simply wasn't structured to allow the Forsaken time to build up their power.

 

Evil is a tough nut to crack. It's dark, unpleasant, horrifying, and emotionally exhausting to read. In truth, I can't think of many characters in books or movies that are truly evil in the sense that we expected the Forsaken to be.

 

-- dwn

[Bob T Dwarf]

Why any of them have came back from the grave Ill never see. Well maybe some of them are needed but the Gars, heck no. Pointless and useless.

 

It's a little known fact, but ...

 

Aran'gar is Sharan for pointless, and Osan'gar is Sharan for useless.

 

Keep it on the down low. Don't tell the fanboys.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Why any of them have came back from the grave Ill never see. Well maybe some of them are needed but the Gars, heck no. Pointless and useless.

 

It's a little known fact, but ...

 

Aran'gar is Sharan for pointless, and Osan'gar is Sharan for useless.

 

Keep it on the down low. Don't tell the fanboys.

 

For a few seconds there I was like 'really', then the penny dropped. Chuckle worthiness of your post is quite high, well done.

 

I would have to say that Aran'gar was useless and Osan'gar was the definition of useless, although he was fun to read about.

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Brandon Sanderson is Demandred. :B i called it first.

[Rand Skywalker]

Speaking of Osan'gar/Aginor, if RJ had to bring him back, couldn't he have, I don't know, had him create twisted dark creatures like an evil genius mad scientist, maybe?

[Owayn The Traveller]

Ah I kinda reverse Stephan King in his own Dark Tower Series. A character from a book ending up finishing his own book. Reminds me of those looney toon cartoons in which the artist drawing pad is seen and the characters get involved.

 

I use to try and write posts that discussed the books. I miss those days.

 

This post is in response to the post by UseR2006.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Speaking of Osan'gar/Aginor, if RJ had to bring him back, couldn't he have, I don't know, had him create twisted dark creatures like an evil genius mad scientist, maybe?

 

At a signing or in a Question of the Week, Jordan said that Aginor was something like a chip designer dropped into the sixteen century. He'd have to invent the science to invent the tools to make the tools to make the ugly, awful, twisted Shadow creatures. Too much had been lost in the Breaking to allow Aginor to ever again be a mad scientist.

[Rand Skywalker]

Speaking of Osan'gar/Aginor, if RJ had to bring him back, couldn't he have, I don't know, had him create twisted dark creatures like an evil genius mad scientist, maybe?

 

At a signing or in a Question of the Week, Jordan said that Aginor was something like a chip designer dropped into the sixteen century. He'd have to invent the science to invent the tools to make the tools to make the ugly, awful, twisted Shadow creatures. Too much had been lost in the Breaking to allow Aginor to ever again be a mad scientist.

 

Thanks for the info. I haven't read those for a while. I guess that helps explain why Dashiva isn't much use--his skill set really doesn't match up.

[Mr. Micawber]

Speaking of Osan'gar/Aginor, if RJ had to bring him back, couldn't he have, I don't know, had him create twisted dark creatures like an evil genius mad scientist, maybe?

 

At a signing or in a Question of the Week, Jordan said that Aginor was something like a chip designer dropped into the sixteen century. He'd have to invent the science to invent the tools to make the tools to make the ugly, awful, twisted Shadow creatures. Too much had been lost in the Breaking to allow Aginor to ever again be a mad scientist.

 

Honestly, it has a lot to do with why Jordan had swords playing a role in a war involving energy discharge weapons and giant flying wings.

 

The infrastructure that allowed the legends of the Age of Legends to exist was already collapsing *before* the Breaking.

 

Oh, and the reason people gave Jordan the benefit of the doubt for so long is that Moiraine went out in a blaze of glory. Martin, despite his reputation, hasn't really killed off that many more folks than Jordan did. The difference is that he kills very deliberately, because he knows that deaths have got to count, and that sometimes they're necessary to move the plot on.

 

Jordan's problem is that Book 2 gave him the incredible confession and end of Ingtar - which, along with the Heroes of the Horn, is what actually gave the series legs, since TEOTW came a bit too close to being derivative - and then Book 3 was the first real victory for the good guys.

 

Book 4 didn't have any deaths, but by the same token, it didn't have any on either side.

 

Then came Book 5. That had a death that really really hurt. And unlike in the LOTR, Moiraine isn't some demigod who can get resurrected (or so we thought).

 

Losing Moiraine really balanced out Rahvin, because it was in that fight that we first got to see LTT emerge. Meaning, along with Nynaeve and Moghedien helping out, it wasn't too surprising Rand just barely managed to win.

 

Book 6 had tons of awesome in it, but the problem is, at the end of the day, we can see in Book 6 the creep begin. What I mean is that not only are the details starting to overwhelm the narrative, but the characters aren't developing. Book 6 is what transformed Faile, who frankly was great in Book 4, into FAIL.

 

And nowhere can we see this transformation better than with the Forsaken.

 

RJ ended up making a critical error: he let us see too much of the Forsaken without actually having them succeed. If they had remained mysterious, we could have justified to ourselves their defeats as being merely those which we had the liberty to observe.

 

Instead, by drawing away the veil on Graendal and Sammael in particular, we got to see how almost comically inept they were, and then with Mesaana and Alviarin, we got pulled way too far into the excruciating machinations of the White Tower.

 

Bringing back the three killed Forsaken plus Cyndane wasn't a mistake in and of itself. Rather, it created the problem of having too many Forsaken, and it really muddied the waters further.

 

Demandred was introduced in Book 6, and frankly, we all expected him to play a role. There's a reason "Who's Demandred?" is the single most debated topic in the WOT fandom. It was in Book 6 that LTT starts coming out for real, and between the Forsaken's own POVs, the Guide and LTT's memories, we had Demandred set up to be Rand's nemesis.

 

Having Moridin come back and not merely take his old position at the head of the Shadow hierarchy, but in a sense replace Demandred as the almost inevitable showdown for Rand has created problems ever since.

 

Since then, we've seen an utterly irrelevant genocide along with the deaths of countless Maidens, but we've not seen one point where we're afraid, not merely for our Heroes, but for other people who don't need to make it to the Last Battle.

 

The worst part is that Moridin doesn't really seem to care one way or another that this is the case, while the other Forsaken are far more concerned with grumbling for the fiftieth flaming time about how they'll be Nae'blis.

 

Demandred *should* at least be the corrective to this behavior. While Moridin ought to be motivated to win the Last Battle, and the other Forsaken to rule the world, Demandred should have been used as the tool to drive a prison shank into Rand's emotions by taking away the people he loves. After all, we know that LTT took pretty much everything away from Demandred; that's really why he joined the Shadow. You don't need all the Forsaken to appear truly evil or competent as long as there's one real *antagonist* in the flaming series. And by this point, there really isn't one.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Demandred *should* at least be the corrective to this behavior. While Moridin ought to be motivated to win the Last Battle, and the other Forsaken to rule the world, Demandred should have been used as the tool to drive a prison shank into Rand's emotions by taking away the people he loves. After all, we know that LTT took pretty much everything away from Demandred; that's really why he joined the Shadow. You don't need all the Forsaken to appear truly evil or competent as long as there's one real *antagonist* in the flaming series. And by this point, there really isn't one.

 

Lews Therin only tried to honor Sammael and Demandrad both. It was their own jealousy that stripped everything away. They couldn't stand the fact that the honors they received came from LTT. Their overinflated egos wouldn't allow them to accept that.

[Mr. Micawber]

 

Demandred *should* at least be the corrective to this behavior. While Moridin ought to be motivated to win the Last Battle, and the other Forsaken to rule the world, Demandred should have been used as the tool to drive a prison shank into Rand's emotions by taking away the people he loves. After all, we know that LTT took pretty much everything away from Demandred; that's really why he joined the Shadow. You don't need all the Forsaken to appear truly evil or competent as long as there's one real *antagonist* in the flaming series. And by this point, there really isn't one.

 

Lews Therin only tried to honor Sammael and Demandrad both. It was their own jealousy that stripped everything away. They couldn't stand the fact that the honors they received came from LTT. Their overinflated egos wouldn't allow them to accept that.

 

 

Sammael's jealousy was like that. And honestly, from what we've gotten, Sammael's jealousy was probably justified in a sense. It's pretty clear that LTT was a real asshole, even if he was extremely competent, to his subordinates.

 

Demandred's jealousy, by contrast, was much different.

 

He was literally beaten by LTT in every single thing, including winning Ilyena.

 

That's a really tough pill to swallow, especially when you're friends with the guy.

 

So, Demandred felt that the First War offered the opportunity to show, just once, that he was LTT's equal. But we all know what happened there.

 

In a sense, Demandred's reason for joining the Forsaken is the most human, and in the classical sense of the word, the most tragic. If you lost every single thing in your life to a man, how would you react?

[Duskfire]

Eh, I think the Forsaken are doing fine. They are meant to be stupid. The whole point of them is that they squabble and manipulate each other when they should be pooling their efforts together. Not to mention their legend proceedes each other. Stephen king does much the same thing; his main villain Flagg is exactly like the Forsaken. Alot of glamour and talk but in the end the majority of his power is an illusion and he is always un-done with his arrogance and/or carelessness.

 

Really, out of the Forsaken that Rand has defeated, he had help with Rahvin and Sammael (and Semirhage too, sort of.) So the majority of the Forsaken he has fought with, he has needed help of some sort to best them. But the Forsaken dont have that luxury. They fear and hate each other almost as much as they do Lews Therin, and thats not going to work in an Age where you are forced to hide and manipulate your way into power (as opposed to the Age of Legends where most of them were pulic.) Imagine if Moridin came to Sammaels defense instead, or if Graendal and Sammael were there to support Rahvin, or Lanfear helped out Asmodean. Thats their undoing; not that they suck, but their inability to help each other out.

 

It doesnt help that the Pattern is against them though :P

[Rand Skywalker]

Eh, I think the Forsaken are doing fine.

 

This makes sense, especially from the DO's point of view. They are his expendable tools, and they have come very close to succeeding. Case in point: Semirhage's actions in TGS caused Rand to touch the True Power, which the DO could arguably have been banking on when he sent her and Elza the sad bracelets via Shaidar Haran . Because this happens we get a nasty, twisted Rand that comes to the brink of destroying the world (ie instant DO victory).

 

I hear what people are saying when they rag on the Forsaken, but I see them as pretty scary customers.

[Tom Sawyer]

 

 

Demandred was introduced in Book 6, and frankly, we all expected him to play a role. There's a reason "Who's Demandred?" is the single most debated topic in the WOT fandom. It was in Book 6 that LTT starts coming out for real, and between the Forsaken's own POVs, the Guide and LTT's memories, we had Demandred set up to be Rand's nemesis.

 

 

I think this is the key. The guy was introduced back in book 6 as a Big Bad. He was a nasty guy out there doing something huge and was going to be one hell of an enemy. That was book 6. We're now through book 13 and he still hasn't gotten around to doing it. There's only one book left and there's an even Bigger Bad around who's going to be the focal point of it and a number of other Big Bads who also need to get their scenes in, so whatever Demandred ends up being up to, it's going to be a truncated side plot which will have a lot of problems living up to the hype that's been built up about the guy. There's just been too much smoke and not enough fire with the man.

[Rand Skywalker]

 

I think this is the key. The guy was introduced back in book 6 as a Big Bad. He was a nasty guy out there doing something huge and was going to be one hell of an enemy. That was book 6. We're now through book 13 and he still hasn't gotten around to doing it. There's only one book left and there's an even Bigger Bad around who's going to be the focal point of it and a number of other Big Bads who also need to get their scenes in, so whatever Demandred ends up being up to, it's going to be a truncated side plot which will have a lot of problems living up to the hype that's been built up about the guy. There's just been too much smoke and not enough fire with the man.

 

Well, I'm hoping we will still get a lot of D as a real threat in MoL, but I don't see how we really can, what with Shaidar Haran, Moridin, Fain, and of course the Dark One all to be resolved.

 

That's why I was so surprised his moment of glory wasn't ToM. I would have put money on him being here in a major way.

[Byzantine279]

I'm going to laugh as Demandred makes his appearance, goes, "And so you meet your doo..." and is balefired before he even finishes the statement. It would be perfectly anti-climatic, we would all need to groan.

[ChrisTrebing]

Yeah, the Forsaken have had some very anti-climactic endings lately. It really is disappointing still having them in the story, or in Demandred's case, not at all.

 

You have to remember they are essentially just really powerful channelers who have been let loose in a world 3000 years after their past life. I mean its kind of like a slightly more knowledgeable Nyneave being thrown into a completely alien situation and expecting her to take down Rand.

 

I agree they have been disappointing and could have done more, but overall I dont think they've been THAT disappointing

[Owayn The Traveller]

I always see Demandred as George out of Seinfeld. Sitting around not doing much, pretending he's up to date his plans and he hasn't a clue what is going on.

I can picture Moridin rushing in and asking 'Hey man what are you doing? The last battle has started. Where's your army? I thought you were preparing for war!'. And his response would be like, 'The last what now? Army? Is that what I was meant to be doing?'. And then Moridin kicks the chair he was leaninmg back on out from under him and he dies.