Discuss The Forsaken

[KefkaPalazzo]

Something random I couldn't get out of my head: The similarity between Taim and (drumroll) ASMODEAN!

 

Read the beginning of FOH (chapter 3, I think), when Asmodean tells his story about the guy hanging off the cliff. Then read near the end of TOM (chapter 53), when Taim tells the story about the bird and the fish. Those two stories could be lifted from their respective books, switched, and put in the other book seamlessly, including the responses to the interruption in the story.

 

Both stories begin with its central character (the man/the bird) in a position of immediate, life-threatening danger (hanging from a crumbling cliff/choking on a fish) when they come across the narrator. (Asmodean/Taim) The audience (Rand/the AS) interrupts the story here. (asks "did you help him?"/asks "did you help the sorry thing?") The narrator gives a bitter laugh, and describes an act of random dehumanizing cruelty (watched the man scramble for a tuft of grass that gave way/killed and ate the bird and the fish) and points out that whatever horror the victim suffered (plummeting to his death/being marinated, cooked and eaten) was the victim's own fault. ("he should have known that the grass wouldn't hold him"/"Fools will always choke themselves when they grasp for too much")

 

I noticed this recently, and want to know what you think about it.

[Moogle]

The most obvious failing of the Forskaen is Compulsion. Completely unblockable by current Aes Sedai (or was, when the Forsaken were released).

 

We have several Forsaken able to conceal the fact that they can channel. Lanfear, Moghedien.

 

We have invisibility weaves.

 

We have Travelling.

 

I don't understand how the whole White Tower was not Compulsed. It took some super healing on the part of Nyneave to heal compulsion - and she was only able to do it because one of the Forsaken taught her the weave, and then Rand told her to use it in reverse.

 

We know that Compulsed people can channel - Grandael's scene at the start of ToM shows this pretty clearly. Delana was able to use Compulsion on Ramshalan.

 

Why did they not undetectably sneak in, use Compulsion on several Aes Sedai, teach them the weave, then have them go and do it to other Aes Sedai? Why was every world leader not invisibly put under the command of the Forsaken? Granted, some might have been able to fight against it like Morgase, but as I understand it, she was something of a rare exception and very strong willed. Is there some sort of limit to the number of people you can use Compulsion on?

 

Then we have the Forsaken constantly whining about there not being enough angreals for them. There was a storeroom in the White Tower that was accessible by Travelling. They can hide the fact that they are channeling and should be able to easily able to overpower the single guard (an Accepted, as I recall!) if she even hears them with their hundreds of years of knowledge and higher than average power levels. Yeah, there was an alarm, but are you telling me they couldn't just use a weave of air and fling everything in the room through a gateway? In and out, 30 seconds max. All they need is knowledge of where the room is... and there are Black Ajah who know that.

 

I'm willing to ignore the lack of such plans though - after all, it would lead to a boring story. I still enjoy the WoT a lot, but the magic introduced in it does lead to these kind of plot holes for the big baddies and cheapens it slightly.

[KefkaPalazzo]

The most obvious failing of the Forskaen is Compulsion. Completely unblockable by current Aes Sedai (or was, when the Forsaken were released).

 

We have several Forsaken able to conceal the fact that they can channel. Lanfear, Moghedien.

 

We have invisibility weaves.

 

We have Travelling.

 

I don't understand how the whole White Tower was not Compulsed. It took some super healing on the part of Nyneave to heal compulsion - and she was only able to do it because one of the Forsaken taught her the weave, and then Rand told her to use it in reverse.

 

We know that Compulsed people can channel - Grandael's scene at the start of ToM shows this pretty clearly. Delana was able to use Compulsion on Ramshalan.

 

Why did they not undetectably sneak in, use Compulsion on several Aes Sedai, teach them the weave, then have them go and do it to other Aes Sedai? Why was every world leader not invisibly put under the command of the Forsaken? Granted, some might have been able to fight against it like Morgase, but as I understand it, she was something of a rare exception and very strong willed. Is there some sort of limit to the number of people you can use Compulsion on?

 

Then we have the Forsaken constantly whining about there not being enough angreals for them. There was a storeroom in the White Tower that was accessible by Travelling. They can hide the fact that they are channeling and should be able to easily able to overpower the single guard (an Accepted, as I recall!) if she even hears them with their hundreds of years of knowledge and higher than average power levels. Yeah, there was an alarm, but are you telling me they couldn't just use a weave of air and fling everything in the room through a gateway? In and out, 30 seconds max. All they need is knowledge of where the room is... and there are Black Ajah who know that.

 

I'm willing to ignore the lack of such plans though - after all, it would lead to a boring story. I still enjoy the WoT a lot, but the magic introduced in it does lead to these kind of plot holes for the big baddies and cheapens it slightly.

 

I would need to re-read the section, but I don't believe that Delana was Compelled. She just knew better than to do anything that would even slightly annoy the two living nightmares in the same room. I do agree that Compulsion doesn't interfere with the ability to channel, but I'm having trouble finding concrete proof. (someone channeling, onscreen, under compulsion)

 

Nynaeve is one of the few people alive that can reverse compulsion, sure, but the WT is aware that Compulsion exists. Witness Verin's POV in (iirc) book 8. There are generally two types of "tricks" sparkers come into the tower doing, but not realizing it: the first is some sort of eavesdropping weave. (Moiraine did this) The other is "dangerously close to forbidden Compulsion." If the WT can recognize that a weave is "close to" Compulsion, but not the weave outright, that implies that they can recognize it, either by some symptoms, or (where my money's at) Delving.

 

The reason (IMO) the Forsaken don't go for the stash is quite simple. It would make the thief a HUGE target for the other Forsaken. An empty storeroom (not counting the guard, since you can travel directly in and out of the room) would raise several alarm bells, and if there's one thing the AS can't do, it's shut up. Word would almost immediately get to one or more of the Forsaken.

 

I see the angreal stash as nuclear weapons, and the FS like nations at war with each other. Neither of them would go for it because the others would all agree that (for the sake of an example) Demandred emptied out the stash, and therefore, is the biggest threat, and all attack him. None of the FS want to be in that position, so they accept that they can't take the shortcut. Remember that the Forsaken don't like each other very much at all. They tolerate each other at the best of times.

[Moments]

Thus, you can't really fight the Dark One mano-a-mano. And this ain't the Belgariad with the freaking Prophecies duking it out.

 

Well put, sir.

 

I will say I'm moderately suspicious about Moridin's role as Nae'blis. They were all squabbling for the role, but during Graendal's PoV I got the sense that Moridin's slowly being turned into a physical manifestation of the DO. She wondered if his voice had sounded a little more like the Great Lord's than last time.

 

It's entirely possible that Rand will play out Min's viewing by fighting the figure wrapped in darkness with the black sword (Moridin) and when he kills him, some dire effect is transferred back to Rand, just as it was for Moridin when Rand lost his hand to Semirhage.

[moratcorlm]

There's no sign at all that Delana was compelled. Elza Penfell (and the rest of Elaida's embassy) is an example of a compelled channeler being able to function, though.

[Fel]

The most obvious failing of the Forskaen is Compulsion. Completely unblockable by current Aes Sedai (or was, when the Forsaken were released).

What's even more sad is that *Verin* comes up with the idea to use Compulsion to get people to do things that she wants. Despite the fact that she is horrible at doing so and can easily get discovered, she goes ahead with it. A simple compulsion on every Aes Sedai to listen obediently to Suian Sanche (and then a heavier compulsion on Suian to make her do exactly what you want) gets every Aes Sedai in the dark one's camp.

 

It is doubly depressing that the male channelers could not do this. Their channeling is completely undetectable to everyone in this age. They could easily have had the Dragon be a hunted villain in every land across the earth with very little effort. There are literally thousands of options available that they did not take and I was hoping they would.

 

Instead, you had the forsaken take over Tear/Illian/Andor directly for some odd reason. Why would you paint a target on your back this way when you could have just as much control without any of the risk?

 

How much more worrisome would the last battle be if 3/4 the nations of the earth were fully controlled by the Forsaken?

 

 

Then we have the Forsaken constantly whining about there not being enough angreals for them. There was a storeroom in the White Tower that was accessible by Travelling. They can hide the fact that they are channeling and should be able to easily able to overpower the single guard (an Accepted, as I recall!) if she even hears them with their hundreds of years of knowledge and higher than average power levels. Yeah, there was an alarm, but are you telling me they couldn't just use a weave of air and fling everything in the room through a gateway? In and out, 30 seconds max. All they need is knowledge of where the room is... and there are Black Ajah who know that.

 

For years, I had hoped there was some kind of heavy ward on those rooms that would snag/attack anyone who attempted to channel in the rooms (like Rand was said to have put on the Great Holding in tear in book 4), but then Egwene just made a gateway in and took the most powerful item there...i remember reading it and thinking "why didn't graendal or mesaana do that?"

 

And, I don't buy the argument that it would make them a target. There are easy answers to that (form an alliance like the Mesaana-Demandred-semirhage alliance, or buy off everyone, etc) and i think it was clear that the DO frowned on the forsaken killing each other.

 

The *only* time you see something remotely like this is where Mesaana makes Sheriam get the dream ter'angreal. Really?!? Skip right over the storeroom of sa'angreal, but you absolutely must have Elayne's dream ter'angreal?

 

 

 

I wish the villians in this series were just a little more creative and had done a little more damage given their immensely more powerful tools at the start. I'd love to feel the despair that seems to have been taking place in the AOL when the shadow was winning over the entire world.

[Jblaylock]

Do all of the Forsaken know about the storeroom in the WT?

If the Black Ajah know, then I'd understand Moridin knowing, since they were (correct me if I'm wrong) his creation. Well, Ishamael's creation, anyway. He has a collection of power items of his own, as we see in the beginning of TOM, and probably has no use or desire for the Aes'Sedai trinketts. No? And I'd understand Mesanna knowing. But she has other plans she's working on (obviously, or she wouldn't have been hiding in the WT for so long) and I don't recall the books ever mentioning that she had any desperate search for power items going. Some of the Forsaken are mentioned as wanting them desperately. But I don't know why that would lead to those other Forsaken knowing about the storeroom, or where it is located. For that matter, who says more than just a few Black Ajah knew about it? And since the way of the dark side is competition and betrayal, why would they tell the others instead of keeping the secret as an ace up their own sleeves?

[Jblaylock]

...I'd love to feel the despair that seems to have been taking place in the AOL when the shadow was winning over the entire world.

 

Then you should read the Mistborn series. At least the first book takes place in a world like that, where the "Dark One" (Lord Ruler) beat the chosen one/dragon/hero of ages/messiah'ish charecter and went on to rule the world in darkness.

[Jblaylock]

I don't understand why they want angreals or terangreals or the like anyway. I mean, without any angreal or anything, Rand is already the most powerful, and on top of that, Rand also has the most powerful angreal (or sa or ter or whatever). So... no matter what any of the Forsaken found, they could not challenge him, and if they aren't challenging him then they don't really need any power item, since they are all ready powerfull enough to deal with anyone else easily.

[Myrenna]

This will sound strange, but I do find myself struggling to see the Forsaken as the baddies in the books. I suppose I first consciously realised that in light of the treatment of Graendal and Lanfear at the end of TofM -- but the idea came from what Verin said to Egwene about the Forsaken not being chosen because of their evil or their power, but because of their greed. People in this thread have said that the Forsaken were pretty pathetic baddies, not achieving much and seemingly just serving as pawns -- I think this is quite right. They're misguided individuals, seduced by the power of the Dark One. Greed is a fundamental human flaw, we all suffer from it, and that's what makes me feel rather sympathetic to the Forsaken. I'm probably very misguided, but I find it difficult to see a human character as purely evil.

[Fel]

Do all of the Forsaken know about the storeroom in the WT?

If the Black Ajah know, then I'd understand Moridin knowing, since they were (correct me if I'm wrong) his creation. Well, Ishamael's creation, anyway. He has a collection of power items of his own, as we see in the beginning of TOM, and probably has no use or desire for the Aes'Sedai trinketts. No? And I'd understand Mesanna knowing. But she has other plans she's working on (obviously, or she wouldn't have been hiding in the WT for so long) and I don't recall the books ever mentioning that she had any desperate search for power items going. Some of the Forsaken are mentioned as wanting them desperately. But I don't know why that would lead to those other Forsaken knowing about the storeroom, or where it is located. For that matter, who says more than just a few Black Ajah knew about it? And since the way of the dark side is competition and betrayal, why would they tell the others instead of keeping the secret as an ace up their own sleeves?

Throughout the series, there have been a few times when the forsaken have craved angreal. In a few of their meetings, they discuss their search for them and how they have not found much in the way of useful items. You have to assume that they all knew about the storeroom (if not exactly where) and could have just asked any BA member the exact location since it did not seem to be a secret.

 

 

I don't understand why they want angreals or terangreals or the like anyway. I mean, without any angreal or anything, Rand is already the most powerful, and on top of that, Rand also has the most powerful angreal (or sa or ter or whatever). So... no matter what any of the Forsaken found, they could not challenge him, and if they aren't challenging him then they don't really need any power item, since they are all ready powerfull enough to deal with anyone else easily.

With a good angreal, they can beat rand unless he has his angreal on him. Without an angreal, Nynaeve and others are strong enough to beat up on them. Without an angreal, they always have to worry that the other forsaken will come after them. Angreal are very powerful tools and they were idiots for not taking them. Give Egwene the fluted rod and she can easily take on Lanfear...they should make sure to get it out of the AS hands.

 

Then you should read the Mistborn series. At least the first book takes place in a world like that, where the "Dark One" (Lord Ruler) beat the chosen one/dragon/hero of ages/messiah'ish charecter and went on to rule the world in darkness.

I read Mistborn and liked it. but, I am not speaking about having the DO win, but at least make the bad guys dominate, given their incredible technological edge over the "good guys", especially at the beginning.

 

Think about where the series would be if the forsaken controlled the Seanchan completely along with the borderlands and a couple of other nations and were beating back Rand's forces at every turn. And, instead of people counting up the good forces and saying "how can they lose?", they were instead wondering how the good guys could possibly win...

[Jblaylock]

Do all of the Forsaken know about the storeroom in the WT?

If the Black Ajah know, then I'd understand Moridin knowing, since they were (correct me if I'm wrong) his creation. Well, Ishamael's creation, anyway. He has a collection of power items of his own, as we see in the beginning of TOM, and probably has no use or desire for the Aes'Sedai trinketts. No? And I'd understand Mesanna knowing. But she has other plans she's working on (obviously, or she wouldn't have been hiding in the WT for so long) and I don't recall the books ever mentioning that she had any desperate search for power items going. Some of the Forsaken are mentioned as wanting them desperately. But I don't know why that would lead to those other Forsaken knowing about the storeroom, or where it is located. For that matter, who says more than just a few Black Ajah knew about it? And since the way of the dark side is competition and betrayal, why would they tell the others instead of keeping the secret as an ace up their own sleeves?

Throughout the series, there have been a few times when the forsaken have craved angreal. In a few of their meetings, they discuss their search for them and how they have not found much in the way of useful items. You have to assume that they all knew about the storeroom (if not exactly where) and could have just asked any BA member the exact location since it did not seem to be a secret.

 

 

I don't understand why they want angreals or terangreals or the like anyway. I mean, without any angreal or anything, Rand is already the most powerful, and on top of that, Rand also has the most powerful angreal (or sa or ter or whatever). So... no matter what any of the Forsaken found, they could not challenge him, and if they aren't challenging him then they don't really need any power item, since they are all ready powerfull enough to deal with anyone else easily.

With a good angreal, they can beat rand unless he has his angreal on him. Without an angreal, Nynaeve and others are strong enough to beat up on them. Without an angreal, they always have to worry that the other forsaken will come after them. Angreal are very powerful tools and they were idiots for not taking them. Give Egwene the fluted rod and she can easily take on Lanfear...they should make sure to get it out of the AS hands.

 

Then you should read the Mistborn series. At least the first book takes place in a world like that, where the "Dark One" (Lord Ruler) beat the chosen one/dragon/hero of ages/messiah'ish charecter and went on to rule the world in darkness.

I read Mistborn and liked it. but, I am not speaking about having the DO win, but at least make the bad guys dominate, given their incredible technological edge over the "good guys", especially at the beginning.

 

Think about where the series would be if the forsaken controlled the Seanchan completely along with the borderlands and a couple of other nations and were beating back Rand's forces at every turn. And, instead of people counting up the good forces and saying "how can they lose?", they were instead wondering how the good guys could possibly win...

 

 

good points. I guess I kind of agree with you then. I'd also like to see a more "Darth Vader'ish" form of command from the Forsaken. Sure, those that serve them do serve with fear of death as the penalty for failure, just as Vader's minions would. But Vader had an entire Empire fearing and obeying him to such a degree. I'd like to see at least one of the Forsaken with an entire army (of humans) obedient to him/her, knowiing full well that he/she was who he/she was, and obeying any way, out of fear.

[MrFantasy]

Yeah but back in books 1-4 the Forsaken wouldn't have needed any angreal to kill Rand. It would've been like taking candy from a baby. They really dropped the ball on that one. I think the Forsaken are suffering from the evil super villain syndrome who is so obsessed with his own twisted plots that they forget to actually go out and be the ruthless terrible people they are deep down inside. Obviously the real reason for this disconnect however is that if they were really so ruthless and effective then there would be not much of a story to tell, and the series probably would have ended by book 2 or 3 at most.

 

Rand, Mat, and Perrin, dead, all world leaders either dead or under compulsion, all the most powerful channelers either dead or under compulsion and also tortured for their secrets like the locations of all angreal/sa'angreal/ter'angreal, all large armies for the Light broken from inside so they are disorganized and ineffective. This is what should have happened if the Forsaken really applied themselves to the fullest extent of their abilities as merciless as possible.

[Ananta]

Plot-induced idiocy by Forsaken.

 

That's what it is. If they were as epic as they are made out to be since the beginning, there would be no books to read.

[Fade]

Demandred has amassive role to play yet, t'would be too much of an anticlimax for him not to. I have faith. he's the strong silent type. As has been written in a few of the novels, the General of any good army doesn't enter the front line unless absolutely necessary. Plus we're forgetting the alter-ego. He may, in fact be one of the great genersls, though this is doubtful. Either way he's keeping his hands close to his chest.

 

Ps let's all hope for a couple of side novels. After all there must be reams of manuscript and notes that never got written into the main storyline.

[Ananta]

Demandred has amassive role to play yet, t'would be too much of an anticlimax for him not to. I have faith. he's the strong silent type. As has been written in a few of the novels, the General of any good army doesn't enter the front line unless absolutely necessary. Plus we're forgetting the alter-ego. He may, in fact be one of the great genersls, though this is doubtful. Either way he's keeping his hands close to his chest.

 

Ps let's all hope for a couple of side novels. After all there must be reams of manuscript and notes that never got written into the main storyline.

 

Brandon Sanderson said that Demandred is his 2nd favorite Forsaken.

 

So, considering he still hasn't even properly showed up, one would think he has rather massive role in A Memory of Light, and that he handles it quite nicely.

[Elan Tedronai]

We know the end game. Whatever the forsaken do they are doomed because that bore will be sealed one way or another. The great lord will stuck in that prison after the last battle. Evil never wins in WOT

 

So the question is how are the forsaken going to die? which people are they going to take down with them?

[Ananta]

Moghadien ends up being fodder to someone who hasn't killed any Forsaken yet.

 

Cyndane's dream thing was just a trap for Rand, and she will die by Rand's hand, but not before she repents her sins.

 

Moridin turns back to Light when he figures out that Rand will somehow destroy the Wheel of Time, so that time will be linear, not cyclical.

 

Mesaana will stay a drooling idiot.

 

Then there's Demandred who will do something really epic, no idea what. Hopefully kill a good guy or two.

[Moments]

Moridin turns back to Light when he figures out that Rand will somehow destroy the Wheel of Time, so that time will be linear, not cyclical.

 

...so Rand is going to kill the universe by stopping time?

[Nooska]

We know the end game.

We do?

Someone remind me when RJ publicized his last page - the one we know he has had written down since.. well since sometime near the beginning.

Aviendhas column run does not an ending make as is exhibited by the amount of discussion of whether its an absolute or a malleable truth. Add to that the we have been told, in the books, that any predictions of teh future are contingent on the DO not winning, as reading the pattern is subject to said pattern still being there.

The story won't be any less epic if at the end the DO wins after all.

[Nooska]

Moridin turns back to Light when he figures out that Rand will somehow destroy the Wheel of Time, so that time will be linear, not cyclical.

 

...so Rand is going to kill the universe by stopping time?

No, he will break the wheel by stopping its turning so previous ages don't come back (is the theory, I'm on the fence personally)

[Elan Tedronai]

moggy: dies in some black tower sheninghans. Probably by logain.

cyndane: gets killed by cadsuane or narishma as she is about to spring one on rand

Moridin: dies at shayol ghul in final confrontation with rand.

Graendal and demandred. Both meet their end in some pointless battle

Mesaana: she's brain dead already. Nothing to kill here

[Elan Tedronai]

We know the end game.

We do?

Someone remind me when RJ publicized his last page - the one we know he has had written down since.. well since sometime near the beginning.

Aviendhas column run does not an ending make as is exhibited by the amount of discussion of whether its an absolute or a malleable truth. Add to that the we have been told, in the books, that any predictions of teh future are contingent on the DO not winning, as reading the pattern is subject to said pattern still being there.

The story won't be any less epic if at the end the DO wins after all.

 

c'mon now,

 

we know for a fact that the dark one has no hope in hell of winning anything. The bad guys never win anything in WOT. He's going to be sealed up as usual. Only this time it would be pre WAR of power prison

[Nooska]

We know the end game.

We do?

Someone remind me when RJ publicized his last page - the one we know he has had written down since.. well since sometime near the beginning.

Aviendhas column run does not an ending make as is exhibited by the amount of discussion of whether its an absolute or a malleable truth. Add to that the we have been told, in the books, that any predictions of teh future are contingent on the DO not winning, as reading the pattern is subject to said pattern still being there.

The story won't be any less epic if at the end the DO wins after all.

 

c'mon now,

 

we know for a fact that the dark one has no hope in hell of winning anything. The bad guys never win anything in WOT. He's going to be sealed up as usual. Only this time it would be pre WAR of power prison

And where do you find that fact?

 

I have argued againts Moridins logic as being subject to The Gambler's Fallacy, but that doesn't preclude that the DO wins.

Basically the only thing we can be sure of, based on all indicators and the morals of the story so far, is that it won't end with a win for the light and a "they all lived happily ever after", or "and they went off to greyhaven".

 

My money is on a bitter win at a high cost and with the question of how it could have been done better, and the "was this really better than a loss" - not because of Rand anymore, but because of the rest of the world. Rand has realized how things must be, noone else has changed the way they do things from the same old ways, so unless FoM turns out to be a contagious epiphanitis fest...

 

Oh, and the bad ones win plenty, its just that the good guys have to win over the bad guys in all the battles for the war to still be there - winning all the battles does not equate to winning the war by default.

[Durinax]

I think the DO wins because time becomes linear instead of cyclical. Doesnt matter if he is released I think he is just misunderstood and infinately bored with seeing the same thing on tv.... I mean the pattern time after time