Elayne's Arc

[Agelmar]

On second thought, I'll give her credit for the outcome of the Two Rivers negotiation (which I think came out as well as it could have for her) regardless of whether she had it pre-planned or changed direction mid-negotiation. That's hardly easy to do (and one of her failings regarding the Black Ajah "visit" was a failure to change course when things were not as she had expected).

[David Selig]

Even if she did have the forces to attack the TR (which she could not have done successfully even with double her current forces)

Not sure about that. IIRC the 6 Andoran High Seats which stayed out of the Succession War had an army of 60 000 men, which now must be available to Elayne. She herself had something like 10000-15 000 in Caemlyn towards the end of the siege, and most of the forces of the nobles which supported Arymilla are now hers too, which gives her another 15 000 -20000 or so. Add to that many others who keep coming to Caemlyn all the time form all the different noble houses, which stayed away during the Succession and such, and it's not unreasonable to think that Andor has at least 100 000 strong army available, if not more. There's a mention in KoD that Andor can raise an army of about 200 000 men in total.

 

But yeah, to start an open war at that time would've been idiotic, and Elayne knew it, and against ta'veren even such advantage in numbers probably wouldn't have been enough.

[blazetheearth]

Even if she did have the forces to attack the TR (which she could not have done successfully even with double her current forces)

Not sure about that. IIRC the 6 Andoran High Seats which stayed out of the Succession War had an army of 60 000 men, which now must be available to Elayne. She herself had something like 10000-15 000 in Caemlyn towards the end of the siege, and most of the forces of the nobles which supported Arymilla are now hers too, which gives her another 15 000 -20000 or so. Add to that many others who keep coming to Caemlyn all the time form all the different noble houses, which stayed away during the Succession and such, and it's not unreasonable to think that Andor has at least 100 000 strong army available, if not more. There's a mention in KoD that Andor can raise an army of about 200 000 men in total.

 

But yeah, to start an open war at that time would've been idiotic, and Elayne knew it, and against ta'veren even such advantage in numbers probably wouldn't have been enough.

 

the 200,000 figure was thrown out in KoD when talking about the total number of troops that Andor could marshal under Gareth Bryne before Rahvin's influence. But even if she had that many, I'm just looking at tactically, the TR has natural barriers to armies on all 3 sides of its triangle. There are x number of acres within that triangle, and Perrin has enough people to man watchtowers that can be seeded through out said triangle. As soon as any gateway opens, Perrin could have his own troops respond while most of her troops are on the otherside of the gateway. A gateway is a natural bottle neck, and the number of troops that can come through per minute preclude her being able to put her entire army in the field inside that triangle before Perrin could respond with an overwhelming force to the same point. Without Traveling an invasion would definitely be impossible, as we can see from the description of the battle by Aemon against Shadowspawn during the Trolloc Wars. Granted the Shadowspawn eventually succeeded, but not without taking causalities that would have caused human (Andoran) armies break and run. It's not unreasonable therefore that Perrin's Wolf Guard (consisting of over 40,000 battle experienced soldiers) could have headed off the Queen's Royal Army of Andor (over 100,000 but less than 30,000 with any experience or training).

[moratcorlm]

The overwhelming bulk of Perrin's Wolf Guard has never been in the Two Rivers, though, and it's somewhat doubtful whether the Wise Ones and Asha'man with him would help him move it there in order to combat another Dragon-allied army. They were in Whitebridge, which is amusingly enough along the demarcation line of Manetheren-claimed land within present-day Andor.

[ajfurst]

I'm just looking at tactically, the TR has natural barriers to armies on all 3 sides of its triangle. There are x number of acres within that triangle, and Perrin has enough people to man watchtowers that can be seeded through out said triangle. As soon as any gateway opens, Perrin could have his own troops respond while most of her troops are on the otherside of the gateway. A gateway is a natural bottle neck, and the number of troops that can come through per minute preclude her being able to put her entire army in the field inside that triangle before Perrin could respond with an overwhelming force to the same point.

Elayne wouldn't have needed to open the Gateway next to the Mayor's house. She could have opened ones up half a days march from each village on multiple sides. She would have had superior numbers of troops, but unless she roped the Kin into fighting for her, would be up against it with Perrin's Asha'man and Wise Ones. And with Perrin's Aes Sedai, I doubt Egwene and the Tower would look fondly on a battle with Aes Sedai on two sides. 200k for Elayne versus 100k for Perrin, with Perrin having the advantage of the defensive positions and more channelers would have been a close run thing. Of course if they'd gone to battle like this Perrin would have been justified to then open Gateways into Caemlyn and take the battle to them. It would have been the most idiotic decision possible, even without the Last Battle. That she even considered it shows how poor a ruler she is.

[moratcorlm]

That she even considered it shows how poor a ruler she is.

This is nearly Star Wars guy territory.

 

(That I just said that shows how poor a ruler Elayne is.)

[Durinax]

I'm just looking at tactically, the TR has natural barriers to armies on all 3 sides of its triangle. There are x number of acres within that triangle, and Perrin has enough people to man watchtowers that can be seeded through out said triangle. As soon as any gateway opens, Perrin could have his own troops respond while most of her troops are on the otherside of the gateway. A gateway is a natural bottle neck, and the number of troops that can come through per minute preclude her being able to put her entire army in the field inside that triangle before Perrin could respond with an overwhelming force to the same point.

Elayne wouldn't have needed to open the Gateway next to the Mayor's house. She could have opened ones up half a days march from each village on multiple sides. She would have had superior numbers of troops, but unless she roped the Kin into fighting for her, would be up against it with Perrin's Asha'man and Wise Ones. And with Perrin's Aes Sedai, I doubt Egwene and the Tower would look fondly on a battle with Aes Sedai on two sides. 200k for Elayne versus 100k for Perrin, with Perrin having the advantage of the defensive positions and more channelers would have been a close run thing. Of course if they'd gone to battle like this Perrin would have been justified to then open Gateways into Caemlyn and take the battle to them. It would have been the most idiotic decision possible, even without the Last Battle. That she even considered it shows how poor a ruler she is.

I doubt the AM and WO's would go back to the TR's unless Perrin had very very good reasons to pull the WO's from returning to their clans, and the AM would be a bit anxious to join up with others (as we have already seen with teh ones family)

[Val Mickey]

When Birgitte recalls her past lives, does she mention that she wasn't called Birgitte during the last incarnation?

 

Somehow I remember it that way. If that is true, FSM's 'Janduin is Hawkwing' theory may have some merit. FSM, I apologize for vehemently opposing it at that time. Now, I'm just opposed to it.

[FarShainMael]

 

Well, it's a start..

 

Birgitte seems to remember that she has been known by several names in the past:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/b/birgitte.html

 

In TFOH 36 she asks people to call her 'Maerion' (she had been shooting arrows at Nynaeve). Kudos to whoever pointed out that this suggested that one of her past lives was as Maid Marion..

[moratcorlm]

When Birgitte recalls her past lives, does she mention that she wasn't called Birgitte during the last incarnation?

She wasn't named Birgitte in any of the incarnations we know of.

[randsc]

When Birgitte recalls her past lives, does she mention that she wasn't called Birgitte during the last incarnation?

She wasn't named Birgitte in any of the incarnations we know of.

 

But we know that there must be incarnations when she was called Birgitte. Because when she is recognized by other characters, it is by that name.

[Val Mickey]

The Flame, The Heart and The Sword. It clearly mentions Gaidal and Birgitte as one of the pairs.

 

They are also mentioned in The Great Hunt of The Horn.

[moratcorlm]

But we know that there must be incarnations when she was called Birgitte. Because when she is recognized by other characters, it is by that name.

Well, at present it is.

He knew their faces, knew their names. But he heard a hundred names when he looked at each face, some so different he did not recognize them as names at all, though he knew they were. Michael instead of Mikel. Patrick instead of Paedrig. Oscar instead of Otarin.

Probably the deeds for which she becomes famous in any lifetime accrue because of common characteristics to the overall Birgitte legend. Perhaps it takes time, though you'd think that people would make the connection before she's really that old, especially since "every story mentions the braid for some reason."

[randsc]

Min gasps, "You're Birgitte Silverbow!" when she first meets her in the Royal Palace in Andor.

 

Mat does the same.

 

They are clearly familiar with a legendary figure called Birgitte.

[blazetheearth]

Min gasps, "You're Birgitte Silverbow!" when she first meets her in the Royal Palace in Andor.

 

Mat does the same.

 

They are clearly familiar with a legendary figure called Birgitte.

 

Yeah, Min's comment always puzzled me because she had met Brigitte in Salidar (apparently sans images) where as the images show up for her in Camelyn. I know it's been said in the books multiple times that she doesn't always see images around people, but it usually seems to manifest most when she first meets someone, as opposed to the suddenly showing up after she has already known them. And she had seen her before at Falme (the same time Mat did) but when they met in Salidar, there was no recognition on Min's part.

[FarShainMael]

Wasn't there some mention of an etiquette among the HotH that they use the name of their most recent incarnation?

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

Wouldn't it still take hours to move a large army via waygate? isn't this issue talked about in Perrins POV's with the Asha'man?

 

So Elayne would of had to take a number of the Kin that use gateways (which we dont know if she has or hasn't) and even then unless that is a Large number of Kin that can make Large gateways (or link to make a massive one) it will still take hours to move a force back to Caemlyn.

[Val Mickey]

Wasn't there some mention of an etiquette among the HotH that they use the name of their most recent incarnation?

 

I'm still searching for it. Post it if you strike gold. But I think that's wrong.

[moratcorlm]

Wouldn't it still take hours to move a large army via waygate? isn't this issue talked about in Perrins POV's with the Asha'man?

By Waygate yes, as they're really not that wide. By Traveling it depends on how wide the gateway (easy to use the wrong word) is. The largest an Asha'man can create on his own is still rather small, and they didn't know how to link back then.

 

As you say, though, linking expedites the flow considerably; if thirteen of the Kin or Windfinders come to her with the news of the attack, or if she can borrow thirteen sisters from Egwene, or better yet some of Rand's with Asha'man to enlarge the circles still further, the gateway is suddenly much less of a bottleneck than the streets themselves.

The light of saidar sprang up around the thirteen sisters near the Sitters, around all of them together, and a thick slash of silver appeared in the middle of the clearing, rotating into a gateway ten paces tall and a hundred wide.

The Windfinders gathered in a circle, doing whatever they had to do to link and taking their bloody time about it. Suddenly the vertical silver-blue slash of a gateway appeared, widening into an opening, five paces tall and covering the whole width of the cleared ground

[FarShainMael]

Wasn't there some mention of an etiquette among the HotH that they use the name of their most recent incarnation?

 

I'm still searching for it. Post it if you strike gold. But I think that's wrong.

 

If so, blame Linda..

 

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/horn-of-valere.html

(search for the word 'etiquette', it's about halfway down)

 

Also, according to this thread, it was mentioned in The Path of Daggers book tour 22 October 1998, Los Angeles :

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/52304-the-heros-of-the-horn-are-they-all-taveren/page__st__20

 

Q: Is [the Dragon] soul born in any other Age, or only at the advent and (theoretically, of course) the closing of the Third Age, as the Dragon/the Dragon Reborn?

RJ: This soul is one of the Heroes, and bound to the Wheel, spun out as the Pattern wills. "It" is born in other Ages, but in a non-Dragon incarnation, to suit the pattern of that Age.

 

In the course of this answer, he related this to why Hawkwing calls Rand "Lews Therin" at Falme--because Hawkwing recognizes this soul.

 

This didn't really tell me why he specifically calls him "Lews Therin", but apparently they've been hangin' together in Tel'aran'rhiod and the etiquette there is to call each other by the name of your last incarnation. (My interpretation.)

[FarShainMael]

Is there an HotH thread? Do we need one?

[AnthonyJamesEnglish]

@moratcorlm thanks lol i realize my mistake reading it back now lol it is easy to confuse the two sometimes.

[RedRaider]

 

Because miss 'I'm so smart and powerful and all should bow to me now' always thinks she knows best, always is convinced she's better and stronger than others and always acts like a spoiled brat that wants her way (ever since she arrived in Andor to take the throne, I actually liked her better as Accepted). It's the same thing over and over again: arrogance. Nevermind how many lives and souls she risks, so long as she gets her way.

 

Sorry, but that's misreading how her character is written. She's doing what she sees as her duty and getting precious little enjoyment out of it.

 

She's a major character in the battle for all of existence. Everything she does or does not do risks lives and souls. The decisions she makes, those she defers, all kill people at this point.

 

 

I disagree. The battle for existence has begun and she still plays games to secure her position as queen. Enjoyment or not, Elayne is working for the advancement of Elayne and she always has. I hope she is the first main character who bites the dust. I do have a question though. Since she's now full Aes Sedai do Egwane rule Andor? Elayne has to bow to Egwane, so even though shes the queen she can be over ruled.

[blazetheearth]

Because miss 'I'm so smart and powerful and all should bow to me now' always thinks she knows best, always is convinced she's better and stronger than others and always acts like a spoiled brat that wants her way (ever since she arrived in Andor to take the throne, I actually liked her better as Accepted). It's the same thing over and over again: arrogance. Nevermind how many lives and souls she risks, so long as she gets her way.

 

Sorry, but that's misreading how her character is written. She's doing what she sees as her duty and getting precious little enjoyment out of it.

 

She's a major character in the battle for all of existence. Everything she does or does not do risks lives and souls. The decisions she makes, those she defers, all kill people at this point.

 

 

I disagree. The battle for existence has begun and she still plays games to secure her position as queen. Enjoyment or not, Elayne is working for the advancement of Elayne and she always has. I hope she is the first main character who bites the dust. I do have a question though. Since she's now full Aes Sedai do Egwane rule Andor? Elayne has to bow to Egwane, so even though shes the queen she can be over ruled.

 

I believe that we will see this confrontation come up at the FoM, because Elayne will back Rand with her armies before Egwene backs Rand. And from the things that we have seen Elayne do in the past, I do believe that she will tell Eggy to stuff it if Eggy tries to order Andoran troops or alter Andoran laws. Elayne does see herself as both and while she herself is AS and answerable to the Amrylin's commands, she will not allow her country to fall under that. Eggy my order Elayne somewhere that she could get killed , but would not have any right to order Elayne's people to do so.

 

But if Eggy were to ask for a favor as opposed to making it an order, then you wind up with most of Andor and Cairhien gathered on FoM

[capuga]

 

Because miss 'I'm so smart and powerful and all should bow to me now' always thinks she knows best, always is convinced she's better and stronger than others and always acts like a spoiled brat that wants her way (ever since she arrived in Andor to take the throne, I actually liked her better as Accepted). It's the same thing over and over again: arrogance. Nevermind how many lives and souls she risks, so long as she gets her way.

 

Sorry, but that's misreading how her character is written. She's doing what she sees as her duty and getting precious little enjoyment out of it.

 

She's a major character in the battle for all of existence. Everything she does or does not do risks lives and souls. The decisions she makes, those she defers, all kill people at this point.

 

 

I disagree. The battle for existence has begun and she still plays games to secure her position as queen. Enjoyment or not, Elayne is working for the advancement of Elayne and she always has. I hope she is the first main character who bites the dust. I do have a question though. Since she's now full Aes Sedai do Egwane rule Andor? Elayne has to bow to Egwane, so even though shes the queen she can be over ruled.

 

Elayne doesn't not have to listen to Egwene in matters relating to running and governing Andor (and now Cairhien). She only must follow Egwene in matters to relate to her role as Aes Sedai. I don't have the exact quotes but that was my understanding from reading Elayne's POV.

 

For example, the treaty with Perrin and the Two Rivers - The is solely an Andoran policy and Egwene would have no say in the matter. The use of Kin for Travel in Andor - I believe this one would likely fall under White Tower jurisdiction and she will probably have to clear this with Egwene in the end. But even this would have different components. Elayne's plan was to use the Traveling to bypass the land (and custom fees) that she had to cede to the Sea Folk. Egwene should have no say in this policy but she could just flat deny the use of the Kin to Elayne.