Elayne's Arc

[Agelmar]

Anyone else think that Elayne and Egwene are on collision course?

The Amyrlin is defenitely not going to like Elayne tying the Kin to Andor, especially since she plans it to be an institution where Aes Sedai can retire into. Elayne's meddling is going to affect White Tower's neutrality.

And on her meeting with Perrin, I thought it went well for both sides.

 

Yes. Of all the many things Elayne does in this book worthy of criticism, her encounter with Egwene passed largely unnoticed. Yes, she showed little to no deference to Egwene (right after Egwene had dressed down Nynaeve for the same), but she also completely blew off the testing and the Three Oaths. Reconsider her use of her pregnancy as an excuse in light of the incredibly cavalier attitude she takes towards it in planning her little visit to the Black Ajah. She used it in a rather despicable and, based on latter events, obviously disengenuous manner to avoid being bound by the Three Oaths.

[Darth Krewl]

it isnt an alliance, its close to an absolute monarchy. The nobles wouldnt be happy with it nor would the commoners, but I think the nobles are too scared fo rand to even think of fighting elayne or dragging her down. So they have virtually no say in the manner. Not to mention she could pass it off as tying the two nations closer together, the other nobles greed will take care of the rest.

 

Touché. She is taking over the throne, you're absolutely right and I stand corrected. As for the rest, expressions such as "I think" and "She could" are, obviously, based on personal interpretation. Nothing wrong with that, of course, it's just that I may disagree and I do lol!

 

Simply because, from my understanding of Elayne's thoughts in this particular passage, she seemed to be quite aware that she was treading treacherous waters, what with the Cairhienin being the masters at playing the Game of Houses and all. Not to mention that she needed to feel secure concerning their support to her claim, before taking the throne, meaning that any move on her part that could be seen as a misstep on the part of the nobles could complicate things quite a lot for her royal "Blondness". And papers have to be produced in order to legalize her ascent to the throne.

 

So, all things considered, I just seriously doubt that she would have gained the support she sought, had she come demanding that Cairhien sent their forces straight into Andor ASAP to counter the surprise attack. But, regardless of this, I'm sure that by the moment word on the attack has reached the FoM, many more than Cairhien should offer their support to Andor, because the Shadow is a threat and enemy to all the peoples of the Randland.

 

Who knows? Had she done this, maybe she would've even found the waygate at Caemlyn and done something to secure it.

 

unless she was searching every basement they wouldnt have found it.

 

Well, to my defense I did say "who knows", just I have highlighted in bold. I never said this would be the case 100%.

 

Only saying that Elayne certainly did not exhaust all the resources, means and options at her disposal in an effort to set preventive/defensive measures that could diminish the threat of attack. Simple as that.

 

actually leaving the country was likely the best thing she could have done. The shadowspawn army would have struck straight for the castle to destroy the 'brain' of the city. By leaving the country she still has a legitimate government even if caemlyn gets burnt to the ground and everyone in the city dies. It is basically the same situation when during WW2 the Dutch government fled the government. It allows the people somethign to rally around, where if she died and lost caemlyn then the people of andor would be left in shambles and the nobles might not be able to rally the people sufficiently

 

Well, that's your personal opinion and your entitled to it, of course. But I strongly disagree. Elayne didn't flee during the invasion to set up an Andor government in exile, which would've made sense, had her closest associates gotten her out. That was the right thing to do, had she been there and had that been possible.

 

Alas, fact remains that she wasn't there when the invasion came and I'm pretty sure that, as he's roasting on some Trolloc spit, "Average Joe" from Caemlyn will be wondering why his queen left her people to their luck during their direst time of need. It is what it is and it'll be history who judges Elayne, not me. I get tired of saying this, but it's the truth. No matter who wishes to justify her.

 

But hey, it's okay. She's only human, after all, and she made a huge mistake, just like all of us have done at one time or another in our lives. This, I'm sure we'll all see, when we read her thoughts on the invasion, once word of it has reached her. And I bet you and all of her stout defenders, that Elayne won't stop blaming herself for leaving her post. Just like Rand spent who knows how many pages blaming himself for the deaths of who knows how many women. It's human nature and it's Jordan's style at its best.

[randsc]

Freakin' nobility. Never mind Mat's Dragons and fully automatic crossbows, I'd like to see him invent the guillotine.

[Darth Krewl]

Freakin' nobility. Never mind Mat's Dragons and fully automatic crossbows, I'd like to see him invent the guillotine.

 

LMAO! This is spot on, yea!

[waffle]

"Lord Somethingorother. Would you look down the barrel of this Dragon? I thnk it´s clogged."

"Certainly, Lord Mat."

 

 

e-

erm, if i remember correctly Mat actually did look into the barrel of a dragon in ToM

[Durinax]

Darth I was just pointing out that it was in a basement and that extent of search would be unfeasable. Since by the time they investigated all the more likely routes the invasion would have started. I only base this off of a quote I remember from EotW it would take 3 days (or so) to search every inn in the city. So to search most infrastructure in the city would take significantly longer.

 

Only saying that Elayne certainly did not exhaust all the resources, means and options at her disposal in an effort to set preventive/defensive measures that could diminish the threat of attack. Simple as that.

To exhaust all her resources in searching for a threat would be unfeasable. Even using half the resources would be unfeasable. The budget would most likely be unable to take that strain. After all she has to pay army wages, recruitment costs, policing, warehousing fees, pay servants, food, etc etc. As viewers we cannot even guess at the fortunes and costs of the Andoran crown. And to sink huge amounts of resources into a vague (timeline wise) threat may have cost her much of her support since she would be searchign House properties and infrastructure. And no one likes having the authorities come and search their stuff. Especially since we have seen the amount of rioting the Andorans have done when they feel they are being unfairly treated.

 

I think Elayne did the best possible with her current resource load, and expenditures. (remember that during the war of succession that she was tight on resources) She used existing army resources to fortify bordertowns, along with establishing the kin as a social network which allows for military information, resource moving almost instantly.

 

and i am not saying that she wont blame herself. Any good leader would blame themselves for not being there. I am saying she was doing what had to be done, she was securing resources, allies, and doing the maximum that can be done with a minimum of resources (which any good leader does). Besides a nation like Andor would always be under threat of attack, from outside or inside, the main issue is whether or not we think that she took the necessary steps for caemlyn to be saved

[David Selig]

Anyone else think that Elayne and Egwene are on collision course?

The Amyrlin is defenitely not going to like Elayne tying the Kin to Andor, especially since she plans it to be an institution where Aes Sedai can retire into. Elayne's meddling is going to affect White Tower's neutrality.

And on her meeting with Perrin, I thought it went well for both sides.

 

Yes. Of all the many things Elayne does in this book worthy of criticism, her encounter with Egwene passed largely unnoticed. Yes, she showed little to no deference to Egwene (right after Egwene had dressed down Nynaeve for the same), but she also completely blew off the testing and the Three Oaths. Reconsider her use of her pregnancy as an excuse in light of the incredibly cavalier attitude she takes towards it in planning her little visit to the Black Ajah. She used it in a rather despicable and, based on latter events, obviously disengenuous manner to avoid being bound by the Three Oaths.

The meeting with Egwene in TAR (Chapter 14 of ToM) happens after the BA interrogation and the jailbreak (Chapter 23). Elayne's timeline was significantly behind Egwene 's at the start of ToM so it's somewhat. After the jailbreak Elayne her attitude towards danger changed significantly towards being more careful.

 

Elayne said she will probably be unable to do it now due to the pregnancy. Rightly so, since she can't channel consistently enough to be ready for the test and it's also unclear how the Acceptatron may affect the babies. She was ready to take the Three Oaths if she had to without going through the test, only wanted for Egwene to check whether there's info if being pregnant would be a problem (which seems unlikely). We didn't hear more of that, so my guess is that Egwene decided to wait until Elayne's pregnancy is over to take the test properly and then take the Oaths.

[Darth Krewl]

Darth I was just pointing out that it was in a basement and that extent of search would be unfeasable. Since by the time they investigated all the more likely routes the invasion would have started. I only base this off of a quote I remember from EotW it would take 3 days (or so) to search every inn in the city. So to search most infrastructure in the city would take significantly longer.

 

Fair enough. I do admit that finding the waygate would've proven difficult without aid. But, let's not forget that Mat was there, working hand in hand with Elayne to build the dragons. Had Elayne taken the threat more seriously, I'm sure Birgitte could've suggested including Mat (for his military prowess) and then, Mat would've told them about the waygate, as well as provide valuable military insight to help set up possible defenses.

 

Now, I now this may sound like too far-fetched a theory. But why? Simply because of Elayne's communication skills (or lack thereof) make it so. Had she taken Mat seriously (at that point, she already knew that the guy was in charge of the greatest military force outside Caemlyn's gates and they had a treaty that insured the Band's partial allegiance to her), then this whole thing could've been prevented, even w/o Mat's uncanny luck or Verin's letter involved. She simply didn't trust him with this information.

 

Would this have sufficed? We'll never know. Because Elayne saw Mat more as her potential court jester than as what he was at that point, a most valuable ally and partner.

 

To exhaust all her resources in searching for a threat would be unfeasable. Even using half the resources would be unfeasable. The budget would most likely be unable to take that strain. After all she has to pay army wages, recruitment costs, policing, warehousing fees, pay servants, food, etc etc. As viewers we cannot even guess at the fortunes and costs of the Andoran crown. And to sink huge amounts of resources into a vague (timeline wise) threat may have cost her much of her support since she would be searchign House properties and infrastructure. And no one likes having the authorities come and search their stuff. Especially since we have seen the amount of rioting the Andorans have done when they feel they are being unfairly treated.

 

I think Elayne did the best possible with her current resource load, and expenditures. (remember that during the war of succession that she was tight on resources) She used existing army resources to fortify bordertowns, along with establishing the kin as a social network which allows for military information, resource moving almost instantly.

 

Agreed on all accounts, except that I wasn't speaking of monetary resources per se. I was speaking about brainstorming, analyzing, investigating, consulting with any military and espionage experts at your disposal, etc. Intangible resources, if you will. My bad for not being clearer about this. But the truth remains that all rulers (at least, those responsible and straight, not those twisted and/or power-hungry) must put the safety of the people they lead and their soil above all other things, especially when under threat of an imminent attack.

 

As for the borders, Ishadar has already made a great point on just how impractical and senseless that would be and I agree with his/her views 100%. I'd suggest reading his posts right here on this subject. For my part, suffice to say that logic would've dictated that in a normal fantasy universe. But, in a universe featuring many ways to travel even more effectively than in our real world, you have to cover all the bases and admit the possibility that moving a large army of Shadowspawn from the Blight, by conventional means (marching all the way down to Andor) would've been extremely unlikely (not to mention stupid) from your enemies.

 

and i am not saying that she wont blame herself. Any good leader would blame themselves for not being there. I am saying she was doing what had to be done, she was securing resources, allies, and doing the maximum that can be done with a minimum of resources (which any good leader does). Besides a nation like Andor would always be under threat of attack, from outside or inside, the main issue is whether or not we think that she took the necessary steps for caemlyn to be saved

 

Exactly. The main issue is if she did all that was possible to counter the threat. Again, she had enough reason to trust Mat's insight at that point. Didn't use it. Compare that to Perrin and the way he handled the surprise attack waiting for him near the Jehannah Road.

 

The guy sent out sentries, he consulted with every single one of his close associates (regardless of his like/dislike for them, such as the Ghealdanin general, don't remember his name right now) and, most importantly, he went back for the Whitecloaks, after analyzing the situation thoroughly, narrowing down possibilities and figuring things out. The parallels are striking and, IMO, by design. Perrin succeeded big time while Elayne's failure is just as big. So, I just don't think she did all that could be done.

[Durinax]

well on the affair of reinforcing the borders is a really good idea since if the attack was coming word could leave a borderfort, and with the kin travelling about, they could have the kin check in on each guard fort each day, and allow for a controlled retreat, along with pulling every borderfort you can consolidate your armies and put a temporary halt in the enemies advance.

[Darth Krewl]

well on the affair of reinforcing the borders is a really good idea since if the attack was coming word could leave a borderfort, and with the kin travelling about, they could have the kin check in on each guard fort each day, and allow for a controlled retreat, along with pulling every borderfort you can consolidate your armies and put a temporary halt in the enemies advance.

 

Exactly. The Kin's pretty much wasted and useless since the whole Ebou Dar thing. This would give those poor gals something to do, that would help Andor tenfold in the process.

 

But again, such a large force is never gonna go unnoticed, should they be marching on foot all the way from the Blight. That would send everyone on edge and, unless they wanted to risk incurring in the wrath of the Seanchan (which would seem clear that it's something the Shadow doesn't want at this point), the western territories are a no-no. So you'd have to come via Tar Valon...and that's as far as a Shadowspawn army would get, I'd think. So, I must insist, you'd have to take into serious consideration that the attack is not coming through conventional means of transportation, but rather via waygates or portal stones.

 

That makes any defense more difficult, unless you contact your buddies at the Tower for feedback on all known and registered portal stones and waygates in Andor. As Moiraine put it in one of the first books, this war has been fought for a long time and by unconventional means. So, IMO, that means you've got to defend for unconventional attacks.

[gambril]

I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere so who here thinks/realized that Elayne 'acquiring' the Band and splitting it in half is her fulfilling Min's vision of Elayne and a severed hand?

 

A severed hand huh? So what does this mean now that we have the information we do? ie: Caemlyn under attack with half the Band and all those mercanery companies around the walls. A severed hand in all this context, sadly greatly implies that the part of the Band that's with Talmanes in Caemlyn is going to fall to the trollocs and Dreadlords :(. After all, Mat isn't there so yeah.

 

So you say, well all that need happen is for Mat to travel back to Caemlyn and the Band won't fall. Well, unfortantely for Mat and the Band, there's a Dreamspike at the Black Tower, which is only a few leagues from Caemlyn. Now that Demandrad and the Shadow have commited their forces, they will 'extend' the Dreamspike to cover Caemlyn so Traveling won't be possible. Demandrad is obviously making the Black Tower/Caemlyn his headquarters for the Last Battle, Taim is just one of his leutinents :).

 

The upside to all this will be, Mat won't have the Band as an excuse to avoid greater responsiblities in the Last Battle. He needs to be the supreme military commander of the Light's coalition forces, not just the Band. And sadly, taking out the Band that's in Caemlyn will accomplish this. This also goes with 'The One Eyed Fools travels The Halls Of Mourning' or some such. Yeah, Mat will be doing a lot of mourning losing Talmanes and half the Band or more in the fall of Caemlyn. What's left of the Band that's with Elayne on the FOM will just become his personal guard or some such like it was previously for Aemon.

 

 

I realize this is going off on a tangent but I'm going to do it anyways! We all know that Demandrad despises Lews Therin so obviously his military goal will be/is to take over Rand's nations in one fell swoop while they're all having tea on the FOM. We were only shown Caemlyn at the end and Kandor I think it was, but Demandrad is also sending trollocs/dreadlords via portal stones and waygates to Tear, Cairhen and Illian all at the same time. Hell, he could even be sending them to Ebou Dar as well since the main force of the Seanchan will be at the Tower. So AMOL will kick off with the Light at the FOM having lost all their nations and the White Tower being the only bastion left for the Light, ouch! I know most fans are disapointed that we haven't seen much - pretty much nothing from Demandrad but he's been keeping his cards close. This is his moment to strike and he's going to deliver a terrible blow to the Light.

 

It's going to get even bleaker when Demandrad rolls over Iturlade, Gareth Byrne etc. etc. and the only General on the Light side that can go toe to toe with him will be the 'One Eyed Fool' lol! Boy is Demandrad in for a suprise when he starts facing Matrim, the Prince of the Ravens on the battlefield and starts getting his shit handed to him. Oh how sweet it will be!

[Agelmar]

Anyone else think that Elayne and Egwene are on collision course?

The Amyrlin is defenitely not going to like Elayne tying the Kin to Andor, especially since she plans it to be an institution where Aes Sedai can retire into. Elayne's meddling is going to affect White Tower's neutrality.

And on her meeting with Perrin, I thought it went well for both sides.

 

Yes. Of all the many things Elayne does in this book worthy of criticism, her encounter with Egwene passed largely unnoticed. Yes, she showed little to no deference to Egwene (right after Egwene had dressed down Nynaeve for the same), but she also completely blew off the testing and the Three Oaths. Reconsider her use of her pregnancy as an excuse in light of the incredibly cavalier attitude she takes towards it in planning her little visit to the Black Ajah. She used it in a rather despicable and, based on latter events, obviously disengenuous manner to avoid being bound by the Three Oaths.

The meeting with Egwene in TAR (Chapter 14 of ToM) happens after the BA interrogation and the jailbreak (Chapter 23). Elayne's timeline was significantly behind Egwene 's at the start of ToM so it's somewhat. After the jailbreak Elayne her attitude towards danger changed significantly towards being more careful.

 

Elayne said she will probably be unable to do it now due to the pregnancy. Rightly so, since she can't channel consistently enough to be ready for the test and it's also unclear how the Acceptatron may affect the babies. She was ready to take the Three Oaths if she had to without going through the test, only wanted for Egwene to check whether there's info if being pregnant would be a problem (which seems unlikely). We didn't hear more of that, so my guess is that Egwene decided to wait until Elayne's pregnancy is over to take the test properly and then take the Oaths.

 

Thanks for the clarification on the timelines. But, as we saw from multiple Elayne POV's after the BA visit, any remorse she shows is pretty limited. She still believes she and her babies are invulnerable.

 

And she doesn't consider it important to tell the Amyrlin that she lost control of members of the BA? Or that she gifted the shadow protection from the One Power?

[David Selig]

We only saw the start of the Supergirls discussion, before it was interrupted by the BA, then it was resumed offscreen. I am certain they all shared a lot more after that, they had a lot to discuss. But Sanderson couldn't show her telling Egwene about the BA jailbreak or her meeting with Mat, because that would've spoiled the plot of the next few Elayne chapters.

[Darth Krewl]

I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere so who here thinks/realized that Elayne 'acquiring' the Band and splitting it in half is her fulfilling Min's vision of Elayne and a severed hand?

 

A severed hand huh? So what does this mean now that we have the information we do? ie: Caemlyn under attack with half the Band and all those mercanery companies around the walls. A severed hand in all this context, sadly greatly implies that the part of the Band that's with Talmanes in Caemlyn is going to fall to the trollocs and Dreadlords :(. After all, Mat isn't there so yeah.

 

Good point. In fact, I agree that the split of the band should be exactly what Min saw. But, I wouldn't be so convinced that this means Talmanes and his guys will fall in Caemlyn. It could only symbolize the split of the Band in two. Their fall to the Trollocs would be one more idiocy to pin on the worst teen queen in the history of fantasy (O Dany Targaryen, O Amidala of Naboo! Where art thou when thee art needed?) but, perhaps this will be the other way around and the Band will be able to hold the fort till help arrives and the day can be saved.

 

So you say, well all that need happen is for Mat to travel back to Caemlyn and the Band won't fall. Well, unfortantely for Mat and the Band, there's a Dreamspike at the Black Tower, which is only a few leagues from Caemlyn. Now that Demandrad and the Shadow have commited their forces, they will 'extend' the Dreamspike to cover Caemlyn so Traveling won't be possible. Demandrad is obviously making the Black Tower/Caemlyn his headquarters for the Last Battle, Taim is just one of his leutinents :).

 

No, that's not what I say. I say it's Elayne's mess, it was her who screwed up and the members of the Band who are in Caemlyn are her responsibility per the treaty she and Mat agreed to, just as any other division of Andor's army. So, it's Elayne and not Mat who has to go to the rescue of her capital city and her nation in general. As for the dreamspike in place at the Black Tower, I don't know how long it reaches, but Mat, Perrin and Elayne could all travel perfectly well from Caemlyn to their respective destinations. So, unless the spike was put in place after they all left (not likely, IMO), I'd say that its range isn't as long as to reach that far into Caemlyn.

 

Mat failed to open Verin's letter, so he should be held partially accountable for negligence. Though, in all fairness, he couldn't have known the contents of the letter, which IMO, is Verin's fault and not his. Still, speaking from in a strictly legal sense, the defense of Andor is Elayne's responsibility, not Mat's. So w/e fate awaits Talmanes and his charges, falls squarely on Elayne's shoulders.

 

The upside to all this will be, Mat won't have the Band as an excuse to avoid greater responsiblities in the Last Battle. He needs to be the supreme military commander of the Light's coalition forces, not just the Band. And sadly, taking out the Band that's in Caemlyn will accomplish this. This also goes with 'The One Eyed Fools travels The Halls Of Mourning' or some such. Yeah, Mat will be doing a lot of mourning losing Talmanes and half the Band or more in the fall of Caemlyn. What's left of the Band that's with Elayne on the FOM will just become his personal guard or some such like it was previously for Aemon.

 

Excuse me, but deciding, not only to take part in, but to lead an extremely dangerous mission to go into 'finnland, to save a friend in dire need and sacrificing AN EYE in the process, to do just that certainly would seem to indicate just how responsible Mat has become. 'cause I can hardly think of a bigger responsibility than looking over his two companions during that quest and trying to save every single one of his charges, like Mat did. Noal/Jain decided to sacrifice himself. That was his choice. But, had Mat had a chance to save the guy, he would've done it.

 

Hence, I think it's pretty safe to say that Matrim Cauthon has learned all about responsibility. In fact, I'd go as far as to guarantee that his key role in that whole Moiraine rescue passage was precisely intended by Jordan to serve this very purpose. I mean, what else do you want the guy to do, to demonstrate that he's become responsible and reliable in extremely serious situations? Mat's ready to do what is requested of him. And if he wasn't, Moiraine will make certain that he does, I'm sure.

 

If Talmanes and his men go down, Mat will mourn them and blame himself for not opening Verin's letter (should he even get to see the thing again), for sure. But it would be Elayne's responsibility to fully compensate him for his loss (perhaps by granting him rightful ownership on all the dragons or by replenishing his ranks with men under her command). Therefore, if anyone should learn a lesson on responsibility here that is Elayne bloody Trakand.

 

So AMOL will kick off with the Light at the FOM having lost all their nations and the White Tower being the only bastion left for the Light, ouch!

 

That's very possible, except for the White Tower. The Seanchan should make certain that it's razed to the ground, as well. In fact, making a move against them right now, would make no sense for the Shadow, since sound military advise tells us that, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". If I was the Shadow (be it the DO himself, Moridin or Demandred, as you suggest) I'd say leave the Seanchan untouched for the time being, at least till they have weakened/destroyed Tar Valon.

[moratcorlm]

I get the feeling I don't know enough about Star Wars to effectively rebut some of these posts.

[Mr Ares]

No, it is a plain and simple fact. Much like my username not having a full stop is also plain and simple fact, but lots of people struggle to get that right. The issue is not Perrin going to the aid of his people, it is what he did after that - raising the flag of Manetheren. That right there, that was the act of rebellion. That was where he was wrong. Caemlyn claimed the TR, and right there Perrin said no. TR does not belong to Andor. That was where his rebellion began. This is not about him saving his people, this is about him proclaiming a part of Andor not to be Andoran any more. A challenge that couldn't go unanswered. And I can hardly condemn someone for an isolated thought that they refuse to act on.

 

Mr. Ares, with all due respect, I believe you should learn a little more about psychology and metaphysics. Because, while thought doesn't always lead to deed, it's still an action, no matter how fleeting, of the mind that reflects our mood regarding a certain subject. Hence, the mere fact of thinking Perrin dead convenient to her, even if it was for just a nanosecond before discarding/disregarding the idea, means that Elayne actually considered the possibility. But I agree, many people seem to fail to get that right. You amongst them, obviously.

I have acknowledged that Elayne considered the possibility of killing Perrin. I have also acknowledged that she dismissed this possibility out of hand. As I say, I cannot condemn someone for a passing thought that they won't act on. But I think we miss the real issue here: despite me telling you how I prefer my name, you insist on getting it wrong still.

 

 

No, I said what I meant.

 

Exactly, you said what you meant, which is akin to stating your opinion.

No, the two statements do not mean the same thing. If I mean something is my opinion, I will say so, and if I mean something is a fact I will say so. I do not need you to tell me what I mean, child. If I am unclear, ask for clarification.

 

Now, keep in mind that you're talking to no youngster here, my friend. I have read enough (and not only fantasy) to know that no ruler and commander in chief would leave their post when under threat. And that is completely true.

 

It is not even close to being true. I've known generals who, on learning that their forces are currently under attack, went back to bed.

 

As you can see, I didn't say generals, as my words above clearly indicate. I said rulers and commanders in chief (as in rulers who, while not military career men, take control of their armed forces during times of war, like they always have). And this is not a matter of semantics or terminology. It's a matter of perfectly well-established rank within the command chain in an urgent military conflict situation, such as a threat to a nation. The ruler does not leave her/his post at any given time, till the crisis has passed. And that's a fact.

Simply saying something is a fact does not make it so. You have provided no evidence to support your point, and you miss mine. Why did the general go to bed? Because there was nothing he could do. What could Elayne do in Caemlyn? Nothing. During WWII, the Allies left their respective countries to attend conferences with one another. The UK, USA and USSR would all have had their leaders in other countries for a time. So clearly this is something "rulers and commanders in chief" do. Elayne was not going on holiday, she was gone for a matter of hours, at most, to secure another country. If anything happened she could be quickly reached. It is very unlikely that anything would happen during that brief period she was away in Cairhien that would require her immediate attention. If any invasion came, it would take time to respond anyway. Adding the few minutes it would take to get to Cairhien via Gateway, contact Elayne, and bring her back is very unlikely to result in a serious issue. The same applies at the FoM. If she is needed at short notice, she can be reached, and taking a morning out to take up her responsibilities as Queen of Cairhien will not result in any problems. She did nothing wrong, nor have you been able to provide any good reason for why she should be considered to have done wrong.

 

I have no problem debating all that you like, but please, refrain yourself from twisting/misconstruing my words just to try and boost your arguments. I consider that akin to cheating, so let's keep a sportsmanlike attitude here, if you please.

If you would ask that of me, I would request you do the same. I see no reason I should tolerate your hypocricy, nor your rudeness vis a vis my name.

 

Say all you want about that hectic runaround across Ebou Dar to find this Bowl of Winds, but the truth remains that there were plenty of Aes Sedai in the vicinity who could have assisted Nynaeve and the Athan Miere to find the device, link and use it.

 

But they didn't know where it was. Only Nynaeve and Elayne knew that. And the AS didn't help. So, it was either Nynaeve alone or Nynaeve and Elayne.

 

Seems to me like, at least, we both agree that Nynaeve's participation in that whole passage was imperative. And it would seem clear that we both know she was there. The highlights in bold clearly prove that. Therefore, you are boosting my case, if anything.

So I'm boosting your case by saying two heads are better than one, when your case amounts to one head being better than two? You must defend your position. As stated, it makes no sense. Please clarify.

 

Speaking of flawed logic, there are more people arguing than just the three of us, so you need a recount, but even if more people do support you it doesn't make you right. 1+1=2 even if most people want to say 1+1=3.

 

Oh yes, there's far many more people arguing this other than us two. However, I wouldn't recommend a tally or count of opinions, because it would seem clear to me that I am with the majority, whereas you're not. But even if that wasn't the case, I presume that you would stand by your logic, flawed or not, just like I stand by mine. I just happen to be part of the general consensus, that's all there is to it.

If I felt my logic was faulty, I wouldn't stand by it. I see no evidence of you being part of a general consensus, nor would I care if you were. I pointed out the flaw in your logic there, which you ignored. People are no less wrong for being wrong in great numbers.

 

 

Rand was never the lawful ruler of Andor, by his own admission. After Morgase, Elayne became Queen. Rand was just holding it for her.

 

Indeed. Then, why didn't she take the throne from Rand, but had to fight for her rights?

She didn't take the throne from Rand because it wasn't Rand's to give, it was hers to take. She had to fight for her rights because Rand had abandoned the country, leaving a power vacuum. I have not countered any of my own points, but doubtless if I did, I would do a better job of countering my arguments than you have. Rand was just a caretaker - he did not deny that the throne was lawfully Elayne's. The only problem was how he said it, which gave the impression he was a conqueror handing it to her on a silver platter. That is not the impression he intended to give - at no time did he claim Andor as his own. If it wasn't his, he couldn't give it away.

 

All the more power to my argument, because this means that, any envoys, messengers, ambassadors, diplomats, etc. that she may have sent while not legally recognized as the queen of Andor do not stand for the official authority of the throne. Hence, refusing to acknowledge her petitions is not only valid, but the right thing to do in that instance. Once she became officially recognized as queen and ruler of Andor, Perrin went to her, like the situation demanded. So, again, it was her who was at fault here and never him.

Monarchy passes instantaneously (hence "the King is dead, long live the King"). She was Queen automatically upon the abdication of her mother. She simply had to get the others to agree to that claim, and that only because a power vacuum formed. Furthermore, Perrin raised his banners in de facto rebellion during Morgase's reign. So he was at fault in this instance.

 

In TSR, Darlin Sisnera was in rebellion against Rand. He remained so until ACOS. At the time he left there was open rebellion against his rule, and he wasn't too secure in his support, and he had a foreign enemy in Illian.

 

Yeah well, I meant the guy whom Rand named King of Tear. Dobraine, I think. Please forgive me for calling him Sisnera, WoT isn't even among my top 3 favorite stories so, while I like it, I certainly don't remember the name of every single secondary or minor character by heart. It would seem to me that you do know it by heart and I commend you on that, but that's besides my point.

 

The point is that, while many like you make a big deal of Elayne refusing to do take the throne directly from Rand, sacrificing men that will be needed for the Last Battle in the process, and defend her rashness and haste for leaving Andor in a time of crisis, nobody seems to remember the guy who sits in the throne of Tear. Curious and very amusing, at once.

Dobraine was Rand's Steward in Cairhien. Darlin Sisnera was made King of Tear in KoD. He left the Stone after Rand took it to raise support for a rebellion. Rand appreciated his openness in opposition, rather than the backstabbing. He met Rand in ACoS, and was impressed enough to join with him. Other nobles remained in rebellion. Darlin was named Rand's steward in WH. The rebels capitulated in KoD, and one of their terms was that Darlin be made King of Tear. I'm just showing off now - got to get the WoT Geek of the Year Award somehow. Of course, it's funny that you should say we don't remember him, given that I have a better memory of him than you. There are slaso marked differences in their situations - Tear was conquered by the Lord Dragon, Darlin was Rand's Steward before he was King (and remains Steward still), whereas Rand never conquered Andor (he refused to give the Aiel the fifth in Andor, but they got it in Tear and Cairhien). Therefore Rand had a right to give Darlin whatever titles he wanted, and did so at the request of Tairen nobles. Rand did not have the right to give Elayne any title in Andor because he never ruled there. He was a placeholder.

 

 

Person A is the legitimate heir to the throne of Andor. Person B is a High Lord of Tear. Both are offered the thrones of their respective countries by the Dragon Reborn. A refuses, B accepts.

Do you not see a problem with a legitimate ruler being offered their own throne? Because I do. It wasn't Rand's to give. The throne of Tear was. Furthermore, you persist in saying Elayne started the civil war, which is blatantly untrue. Others started it. Rand left the country in LoC, fleeing the rebel embassy to go to Cairhien (where he ended up captured by the Tower AS). While he was gone, no-one was in charge. Power vacuum. Others put forward their claims. Elayne asked if Dyelin was willing to take the throne, and she wasn't. So it was Elayne's duty to take the throne, and there was no-one to give it to her, no easy way to get it. She did not weaken her country. She ended the war, and thus unified and strengthened Andor.

 

But, if we're going to skip technicalities such as these and nit-pick, then Elayne is even more of an idiot for looking ahead into a future that will NEVER come. That's right. I wrote it will NEVER come.

An absurd claim, utterly unsupported by anything. There will be a future, and Elayne would be very stupid to ignore it. It is unlikely the breaking will take the same form as the last one. Furthermore, Rand has also taken steps for the future. I know your other posts have addressed the academies, but I disagree with your assessment. You are wrong to assert they are to preserve knowledge - they are there to make new discoveries. Hence one guy inventing the steam engine. Rand, Elayne, Egwene, and everyone else who bothers, are quite right to make plans past TG, for themselves, for the countries they rule, for the world.

 

Hey Mr Ares, I'm just going to respond to your response to my post.

 

First, I agree that it is prudent for Elayne to be on the lookout at her border. But for that I think she should have just sent out more scouting parties, not split her army up. Splitting her army up may have made more sense if Andor was surrounded by fortifications or something, but it's not. There's no way 1/50th of her army is going to stop the a huge Trolloc horde at her border. The best they will do is salvage some of their number and get a message to Caemlyn...scouts would serve the same purpose.

 

I also understand that gathering your forces leaves your country open. So maybe it wouldn't be prudent to pull the border guard back until you know exactly what's coming. Still, it's even less prudent to over-commit forces to your border.

 

In summary, I think the issue that I and some others have with Elayne's response to the "impending attack" intelligence is that she never gave it adequate consideration. She knew there was an attack probably coming, and since she had no previous intelligence on it, it's probably some kind of sneak attack. She should have realized she did not know enough and went on an aggressive information gathering campaign. Hold brainstorming meetings with the military commanders, probe your own kingdom for weaknesses. Then once she has approriately analyzed the situation she could take some kind of action. It was basically just typical Elayne, action without thought. Just sending more guards to the border is not enough.

She didn't just increase the border guards thoguh - she also sent people to try an find evidence of an advancing army. But the most likely way to attack Andor is across the border. Attacking Caemlyn through a defended Waygate, when Waygates are choke points and one in a city doesn't give you time to build up forces before beginning the attack and makes you unable to retreat if things go wrong is not a brilliant move. Elayne's actions were reasonable. And you wouldn't use the border guards to repel a large army - but they could delay it, and report back. That gives Elayne time to gather her main army, bring it to the enemy and destroy them.

 

 

Oh, and the Two Rivers, somehow Morgase new that Rand's accent was Two Rivers. I think, and yes it's my opinion, that this in itself would show that the Two Rivers is part of Andor. Not sure who's side that helps:):):)!!!

Neither. I know what an Indian accent sounds like, doesn't mean we still have an empire there.

 

 

It is basically the same situation when during WW2 the Dutch government fled the government.

I know I probably shouldn't laugh, but this typo did amuse me.

 

 

Or that she gifted the shadow protection from the One Power?

The Shadow is only one man now?

 

I get the feeling I don't know enough about Star Wars to effectively rebut some of these posts.

I wouldn't worry about it. Darth Krewl doesn't know enough about WoT to rebut a lot of points, but that doesn't stop him trying.

[Darth Krewl]

I have acknowledged that Elayne considered the possibility of killing Perrin. I have also acknowledged that she dismissed this possibility out of hand. As I say, I cannot condemn someone for a passing thought that they won't act on. But I think we miss the real issue here: despite me telling you how I prefer my name, you insist on getting it wrong still.

 

Okay, to clarify, what I have been questioning is Elayne's wits (or lack thereof) concerning her actions in the latest book. I have never condemned her on her thoughts on Perrin. This is a close friend and ally of the Dragon Reborn we're talking about and she knew it well, long before talking to him.

 

Wishing him harm (no matter how fleetingly or how seriously) on the brink of a conflict where the guy and his considerable forces could be a very valuable ally is, frankly, the perfect example of just how hot-headed, inexperienced, brash and proud this girl is.

 

No, the two statements do not mean the same thing. If I mean something is my opinion, I will say so, and if I mean something is a fact I will say so. I do not need you to tell me what I mean, child. If I am unclear, ask for clarification.

 

heh heh...please, don't be childish, Mr. Ares. Surely, you can do better than that! If you want to play roles and use Aes Sedai lingo on me, then I'm gonna go all Sith on you and you will lose, I assure you. Alas, amusing as it may be, rest assured that I'm past such juvenile jabs.

 

Now, in all seriousness, be mindful of what you ask of me, for I also do not require for you to tell me what I mean. And you're not unclear, believe me. Neither you are as smart as you give yourself credit for, nor am I such easy pickings as you might be foolishly deluding yourself to believe...my very young and naive friend ;-)

 

Simply saying something is a fact does not make it so. You have provided no evidence to support your point, and you miss mine...

 

With all due respect, I know the difference between those who pursue an argument to defend a point and those who seek an argument just for the sake of arguing, due to some misplaced sense of superiority or something similar. In your case, I have already taken the trouble of presenting overwhelming evidence in the Discuss the Full Book thread, only to have you say that you "still fail to see" my point. So, you'll forgive me for saying that I don't see any valid reason to present evidence, since your track record would clearly indicate that you will dismiss it offhandedly.

 

Still, my evidence in this case should be good, old fashioned common sense and good judgment. As no smart leader would leave their land when facing the imminent threat of attack. They would put any upcoming trips on hold, at least till the crisis has either passed or been brought under control.

 

If you would ask that of me, I would request you do the same. I see no reason I should tolerate your hypocricy, nor your rudeness vis a vis my name.

 

You've already called me a child and now a hypocrite, but you take issue on my using your handle, only to address you as I deem properly on the Internet, Mr. Ares?

 

Interesting sense of pride. Extremely twisted and misplaced for my taste, but interesting, nonetheless. If you want the gloves to come off, just ask and rest assured that I will be more than pleased to accommodate you, Mr. Ares. Alas, I suggest caution when you choose your words, for I certainly wouldn't like to see you flagged or worse :-)

 

So I'm boosting your case by saying two heads are better than one, when your case amounts to one head being better than two? You must defend your position. As stated, it makes no sense. Please clarify.

 

Firstly, to quote Jaime Lannister, "you would do well to ommitt must from any speech directed at me", for I am under no obligation to defend anything. This is an internet forum, not a matter of life or death.

 

As for your question, I will respond because it's so obvious, it should be jumping right at anyone with eyes to see. There were far than just one head amongst the Aes Sedai stationed at Ebou Dar with the Trakand and al'Meara girls. Joline, Teslyn and Edesina, if I'm not mistaken. And I'm quite certain that anyone of them could have come up with some useful ideas, working under Nynaeve's leadership...unless we were to believe them completely retarded and utterly incapable. Then again, we could discuss the total, complete and utter idiocy of Aes Sedai, to understand this better, but that would be a whole different ballgame altogether, of course heh heh...

 

If I felt my logic was faulty, I wouldn't stand by it. I see no evidence of you being part of a general consensus, nor would I care if you were. I pointed out the flaw in your logic there, which you ignored. People are no less wrong for being wrong in great numbers.

 

Ah, so now you must know how I feel! Regardless of how faulty or openly stupid you may find my logic to be, surely you must understand that I will stand by it as stubbornly as you, not to mention that I feel the same exact way about your logic, doubtless.

 

I commend you for standing by your views, whether it's all alone or as part of the general consensus, because I happen to be as proud and stubborn a free thinker myself. Alas, it wasn't me who brought up that others had opined here. That was you. The fact that most of us would seem to agree on the same ideas (and not exactly with yours) is a mere fact of common sense. Not a matter on the majority being right or wrong.

 

I didn't ignore your logic. I'm just in complete and utter disagreement with it. I utterly reject it and there's nothing you can do about it, except for desisting to pursue this argument any further, perhaps. For I will never grant you the victory that you so sorely seem to wish :-)

 

She didn't take the throne from Rand because it wasn't Rand's to give, it was hers to take. She had to fight for her rights because Rand had abandoned the country, leaving a power vacuum. I have not countered any of my own points, but doubtless if I did, I would do a better job of countering my arguments than you have. Rand was just a caretaker - he did not deny that the throne was lawfully Elayne's. The only problem was how he said it, which gave the impression he was a conqueror handing it to her on a silver platter. That is not the impression he intended to give - at no time did he claim Andor as his own. If it wasn't his, he couldn't give it away.

 

Certainly true all of it. Still, by the time Elayne came back to Andor trying to stake her claim, the realm was already in disarray and headed for an inevitable fall. Perhaps, no one could have prevented it but, the fact remains that Elayne Trakand failed miserably to improve the situation and save her realm. And that is a fact. How history will judge her; as the ruler who lost Andor to the Shadow, unless Caemlyn can still be saved, which is something none of us will know until we've all read AMoL. But history is a harsh judge and, at this point, that will be Elayne's legacy.

 

So defend her all you want, love and dream of her, if you wish, I care not. That's none of my concern. My point has always been how Elayne's rule will be perceived by her subjects and how it'll be judged by history. And, to this point, it is what it is.

 

Monarchy passes instantaneously (hence "the King is dead, long live the King"). She was Queen automatically upon the abdication of her mother. She simply had to get the others to agree to that claim, and that only because a power vacuum formed. Furthermore, Perrin raised his banners in de facto rebellion during Morgase's reign. So he was at fault in this instance.

 

Perrin was not the only one not to acknowledge Elayne as the legimitate ruler of Andor and all rebels (including him if you will) have been dealt with. And I have never said he was not at fault. I only said that he was never the "dangerous rebel" you deemed him, by any means. It's simple: rebel who declares openly and tries to seize the throne is far more dangerous than rebel who declares openly, only for independence from the throne ruling his lands. Huge difference, just like there is in a "Most Wanted" list. A murderer and a rapist is far more dangerous than a small time con-artist. But again, I'm relying on common sense here, so I suppose it's no wonder why you refuse to see this.

 

Dobraine was Rand's Steward in Cairhien. Darlin Sisnera was made King of Tear in KoD. He left the Stone after Rand took it to raise support for a rebellion. Rand appreciated his openness in opposition, rather than the backstabbing. He met Rand in ACoS, and was impressed enough to join with him. Other nobles remained in rebellion. Darlin was named Rand's steward in WH. The rebels capitulated in KoD, and one of their terms was that Darlin be made King of Tear. I'm just showing off now - got to get the WoT Geek of the Year Award somehow. Of course, it's funny that you should say we don't remember him, given that I have a better memory of him than you. There are slaso marked differences in their situations - Tear was conquered by the Lord Dragon, Darlin was Rand's Steward before he was King (and remains Steward still), whereas Rand never conquered Andor (he refused to give the Aiel the fifth in Andor, but they got it in Tear and Cairhien). Therefore Rand had a right to give Darlin whatever titles he wanted, and did so at the request of Tairen nobles. Rand did not have the right to give Elayne any title in Andor because he never ruled there. He was a placeholder.

 

Thank you for the lecture in WoT lore, Mr. Ares. Impressive, most impressive. I'm certain you must be very proud of your vast knowledge of this universe. Alas, as Lindir of Rivendell would say, "to a sheep, I'm certain other sheep look different. Even to the shepherd. Alas, sheep are not my area of expertise." And, in this case, I've got other interests than WoT. Perhaps this is the be all end all of fantasy to you, but it is not to me, I assure you. I find it entertaining and read the books, when I have nothing better to read and I don't keep every single minor or irrelevant character in mind.

 

Point is, you have a much better memory of the guy's name and deeds than me and I've already praised you for that. But I'm afraid that someone has already clarified the situation to me (in much clearer and logical fashion than you, I might add) and I stood corrected.

 

Do you not see a problem with a legitimate ruler being offered their own throne? Because I do. It wasn't Rand's to give. The throne of Tear was. Furthermore, you persist in saying Elayne started the civil war, which is blatantly untrue. Others started it. Rand left the country in LoC, fleeing the rebel embassy to go to Cairhien (where he ended up captured by the Tower AS). While he was gone, no-one was in charge. Power vacuum. Others put forward their claims. Elayne asked if Dyelin was willing to take the throne, and she wasn't. So it was Elayne's duty to take the throne, and there was no-one to give it to her, no easy way to get it. She did not weaken her country. She ended the war, and thus unified and strengthened Andor.

 

I have never said that Elayne started a civil war. I've said that she perpetuated it. Hey, listen, English isn't my native tongue (that would be Español. Para que lo vayas sabiendo, wey - that means, "just so you know, dude", in case you don't speak it) but even I understand the differences between starting something and perpetuating it. See how you have twisted and misconstrued my words, only for the sake of argument?

 

Now, riddle me this kid, if Elayne has strengthened Andor as much as you claim, then why would the Shadow target it, instead of a more unstable nation, riper for invasion?

 

An absurd claim, utterly unsupported by anything. There will be a future, and Elayne would be very stupid to ignore it. It is unlikely the breaking will take the same form as the last one. Furthermore, Rand has also taken steps for the future. I know your other posts have addressed the academies, but I disagree with your assessment. You are wrong to assert they are to preserve knowledge - they are there to make new discoveries. Hence one guy inventing the steam engine. Rand, Elayne, Egwene, and everyone else who bothers, are quite right to make plans past TG, for themselves, for the countries they rule, for the world.

 

No complains about your opinion on my claims, since I happen to feel the exact same way about everything you have stated yourself. Think what you will of the outcome of Tarmon Gai'don. That's your right and prerogative, just as I shall think what I will about it. Learn to respect the opinions of others and yours shall be respected.

 

You are not quoting the books. You are only providing your personal take on most of these issues; especially those that are still unknown to the reader, doing in such a fashion as if you were privy to some information that the rest of us missed. Well, if you have that knowledge from a good, reliable source, then do share! 'cause otherwise, your opinion is as valuable as that of anybody else.

 

Example: not once have you provided evidence to support any of your claims, like when you state that Elayne was gone for "just a few hours", when someone here (not me, btw) has already established that we have no idea on how long she was gone and where she may have happened to be during the attack on Andor. She could've been in Cairhien or at the Fields of Merrilor already. And you don't even know that, much less how much time she spent on Cairhien.

 

I have never claimed to know anything I've said for a fact, much less would I dare try to impose my views on anyone. I have only been exercising my right to express my opinion and based said opinion on common sense. The fact that you disagree with my views does not make them any less valid than yours. You'd do well to remember that, young one. Because you still have much to learn concerning matters such as common sense and good judgment...heh heh

 

Hence, all that you have ever said here is based on your personal interpretation of the books and not based on any solid evidence contained therein. So, if you're going to continue trying to impose your very personal views on me, then I suggest you start presenting irrefutable evidence, such as that found within the books. Otherwise, this is nothing but theory and speculation on your part and I have every right to ignore, counter or support it, as I see fit.

[Agelmar]

We only saw the start of the Supergirls discussion, before it was interrupted by the BA, then it was resumed offscreen. I am certain they all shared a lot more after that, they had a lot to discuss. But Sanderson couldn't show her telling Egwene about the BA jailbreak or her meeting with Mat, because that would've spoiled the plot of the next few Elayne chapters.

 

Given Elayne's actions in Towers of Midnight, and throughout the series, really, there is no reason to assume that she had. If someone consistently exihibits certain behaviors on-screen, it isn't terribly logical to assume that the author has them doing the exact opposite off-screen.

[Durinax]

Perrin was not the only one not to acknowledge Elayne as the legimitate ruler of Andor and all rebels (including him if you will) have been dealt with. And I have never said he was not at fault. I only said that he was never the "dangerous rebel" you deemed him, by any means. It's simple: rebel who declares openly and tries to seize the throne is far more dangerous than rebel who declares openly, only for independence from the throne ruling his lands. Huge difference, just like there is in a "Most Wanted" list. A murderer and a rapist is far more dangerous than a small time con-artist. But again, I'm relying on common sense here, so I suppose it's no wonder why you refuse to see this.

Any rebel to a crown is a dangerous rebel. monarchy is based upon everyone accepting where they are. by Perrin rising up with no consequences (until their meeting) he is the most dangerous kind of rebel, the kind that inspires others to rise up against the queen.

[Crael123]

I kind of agree that you should not leave your nation when you are about to be attacked, but Elayne really could not have foreseen getting attacked via Waygate.. She did what she could by beefing up the border defenses.

 

But I do agree taking Carhien was necessary. It has been waiting for her for a long time, and we need as much unity as we can in the last days don't you think?

 

Darth Krewl and Mr Ares I admire you both. hahah thats all that needs to be said. But lets just stay in prospective. This, as awesome as WoT is... is just a book series. None of it really matters in real life. They are awesome, but they are pretend. Not trying to be mean or insult anybody.

[Darth Krewl]

Any rebel to a crown is a dangerous rebel. monarchy is based upon everyone accepting where they are. by Perrin rising up with no consequences (until their meeting) he is the most dangerous kind of rebel, the kind that inspires others to rise up against the queen.

 

Okay, so Perrin's an extremely dangerous rebel. OFF WITH HIS HEAD...NOW!!!

 

J/k...in all seriousness, I see your point, but rulers do have to find out what circumstances may have led to rebellion (because every case will be different) and find the most effective way to deal with such rebels. In this case, I've never entered that heated debate regarding Andor's claim to the 2 Rivers or anything like that, because I find their negotiations and terms completely agreeable.

 

So, under the circumsances, Elayne did the best she could do. At least in this case. That's not what I been debating about her. Nor her dealings with Mat, for that matter, but her decisions concerning the defense (or lack thereof) of Andor.

 

I kind of agree that you should not leave your nation when you are about to be attacked, but Elayne really could not have foreseen getting attacked via Waygate.. She did what she could by beefing up the border defenses.

 

Well, that's why it's called a "surprise" attack lol! Wouldn't be much of a surprise if your target knows where you're gonna hit them, now would it?

 

In this case, Elayne couldn't have known just how, where and when the attack would come. But she did know an attack was coming and I just don't feel like she did all she could do to prevent it.

 

It still boggles my mind that this girl could consider herself a full-fledged Aes Sedai, since she seems to know nothing haha! I mean, she doesn't seem to know anything about Ta'veren or just how powerful a couple of Ta'veren Perrin and Mat happen to be. She doesn't know that Mat's a military genius unequaled in the Randland at that point. She doesn't know that there is a waygate right there, in her own backyard. I mean, couldn't she consult the history of her own realm with her buddy Aes Sedai from the Tower? NO, she couldn't! Because communication is a word completely missing from the WoT vocabulary.

 

But still, look at how Perrin covered all the bases. He wasn't daydreaming about his new digs in Caihrien. He wasn't daydreaming about securing the rights to Traveling or cannons/dragons. He wasn't planning for a future that Tarmon Gai'don puts in doubt, at the least. He was focused on the here and now. He pushed back his sentence issued by Galad, because he was mindful that "the Last Hunt" takes precedence over everything else.

 

The result? Perrin outsmarted and defeated one of the most gifted minds in the history of his world (Graendal) in outstanding, kick-ass fashion. Elayne? Just wait till she gets word on the attack. Personally, I'd love to see her mug. It'll be priceless hehehe...

 

But I do agree taking Carhien was necessary. It has been waiting for her for a long time, and we need as much unity as we can in the last days don't you think?

 

We? Am a Sith Lord, I root for darkness...muahahaha!

 

J/k...hehehe...agreed. And I know Rand was counting on her to take the reins of Andor and Cairhien both, to rally around him, but the fact of the matter is that her timing was terrible, man! I mean, you've got to have your priorities straight. Kinda like making certain that your eggs don't break before you go and get another basket, if you know what I mean. And, again. IMO, she didn't do enough for Andor, before taking off for Cairhien.

 

Darth Krewl and Mr Ares I admire you both. hahah thats all that needs to be said. But lets just stay in prospective. This, as awesome as WoT is... is just a book series. None of it really matters in real life. They are awesome, but they are pretend. Not trying to be mean or insult anybody.

 

Why, thank you very much, Crael. Much appreciated. Can't speak for Mr. Ares, but for my part, I 'm just having fun, of course. Then again, I do know how to defend myself when under attack (unlike Elayne :-P) So, it's all good!

[moratcorlm]

There were far than just one head amongst the Aes Sedai stationed at Ebou Dar with the Trakand and al'Meara girls. Joline, Teslyn and Edesina, if I'm not mistaken.

As with so many other things, you are. For instance, picking at random,

It's simple: rebel who declares openly and tries to seize the throne is far more dangerous than rebel who declares openly, only for independence from the throne ruling his lands.

Perrin did not declare rebellion only in the Two Rivers, "his lands", but stated his claim to the entire western half of Andor, when he raised the flag of Manetheren. That's a matter of basic law, though not modern law outside of certain military contexts, which make the issue slightly opaque. Now, however, when it comes to matters of basic fact, like which characters you're referring to or a question of the timeline which is fairly well-established, making eccentric to ludicrous (and exceedingly lengthy) claims about a character whom you've expressed your desire be turned into a sex slave, among various and numerous other things, is less convincing than a simple (and preferably single) expression of contempt.

 

We know WOT isn't your favorite fantasy work, and that's fine, but there's only so far you can protest ignorance and demand "irrefutable evidence" for every basic plot point, and no, it doesn't make your argument "no less valid" that extensive citations are not provided for questions of fact which are not even interpretive.

[waffle]

Any rebel to a crown is a dangerous rebel. monarchy is based upon everyone accepting where they are. by Perrin rising up with no consequences (until their meeting) he is the most dangerous kind of rebel, the kind that inspires others to rise up against the queen.

 

Perrin is not a rebel. TR is not a part of Andor.

[moratcorlm]

Perrin is not a rebel. TR is not a part of Andor.

A) Yes it is. Perrin said so, and since he's the rebel here and not you, that should be enough.

B) So are Baerlon, Whitebridge, and everything west of the Arinelle (and incidentally, as Balwer noted back in TPOD, Ghealdan), which Perrin claimed for his own by flying the standard of Manetheren.

[Mr Ares]

I have acknowledged that Elayne considered the possibility of killing Perrin. I have also acknowledged that she dismissed this possibility out of hand. As I say, I cannot condemn someone for a passing thought that they won't act on. But I think we miss the real issue here: despite me telling you how I prefer my name, you insist on getting it wrong still.

 

Okay, to clarify, what I have been questioning is Elayne's wits (or lack thereof) concerning her actions in the latest book. I have never condemned her on her thoughts on Perrin. This is a close friend and ally of the Dragon Reborn we're talking about and she knew it well, long before talking to him.

 

Wishing him harm (no matter how fleetingly or how seriously) on the brink of a conflict where the guy and his considerable forces could be a very valuable ally is, frankly, the perfect example of just how hot-headed, inexperienced, brash and proud this girl is.

Except it's not an example of that at all. Had she committed to executing him, and had to be talked out of it, that would be a good example of your point. She dismissed the thought as soon as it arrived. I fail to see how that is hot-headed, inexperienced, brash or proud.

 

Simply saying something is a fact does not make it so. You have provided no evidence to support your point, and you miss mine...

My evidence in this case should be good, old fashioned common sense and good judgment. As no smart leader would leave their land when facing the imminent threat of attack. They would put any upcoming trips on hold, at least till the crisis has either passed or been brought under control.

And yet you haven't explained why staying in Caemlyn is either common sense or good judgement. Wherever she went, she could be reached very quickly provided people knew where she was. While your evidence "should" be those things, it isn't. It's just your say-so. You ignored the point I brought up. There might be very good reasons to leave the country. In this case, she (at no cost to herself) secures her eastern border and dramatically increases the number of soldiers she can call on in the event of an emergency. Her business there would not take long to conduct, and she could be quickly recalled in the event of an emergency. These points you have not addressed. So, how is it a lack of common sense? How is it poor judgement?

 

If you would ask that of me, I would request you do the same. I see no reason I should tolerate your hypocricy, nor your rudeness vis a vis my name.

 

You've already called me a child and now a hypocrite, but you take issue on my using your handle, only to address you as I deem properly on the Internet, Mr. Ares?

You were the one who started this. I told you how I prefer my name, you persisted in using it incorrectly, and I have called you a child but once in response (compared to the number of times you throw the same accusation at me within this very post). You accuse me of twisting and misconstruing your words, when you do the same to mine. That is hypocritical, by definition. My name is Mr Ares. Not Mr. Ares. It might seem only a small matter, and it is, but I think it is simple politeness to do as I request in this matter. A simple mistake I can accept, yet your persistence in this matter even after I have told you how I prefer it is decidedly ill-mannered. The terms I have used to describe you are accurate (bearing in mind I've called a lot of people on here young, or child. No offence is meant by it, and if people object to me using those terms I am quite happy to refrain from using them on those people, provided they extend a similar courtesy to me - again, this is simple manners).

 

So I'm boosting your case by saying two heads are better than one, when your case amounts to one head being better than two? You must defend your position. As stated, it makes no sense. Please clarify.

As for your question, I will respond because it's so obvious, it should be jumping right at anyone with eyes to see. There were far than just one head amongst the Aes Sedai stationed at Ebou Dar with the Trakand and al'Meara girls. Joline, Teslyn and Edesina, if I'm not mistaken. And I'm quite certain that anyone of them could have come up with some useful ideas, working under Nynaeve's leadership...unless we were to believe them completely retarded and utterly incapable. Then again, we could discuss the total, complete and utter idiocy of Aes Sedai, to understand this better, but that would be a whole different ballgame altogether, of course heh heh...

But of course, the AS in Ebou Dar were not inclined to help them with their search. Furthermore, only Elayne and Nynaeve had seen the building in question, so any others would be limited in that they would only be able to work from descriptions. In fact, there was a dispute between Elayne and Nynaeve as to how many floors the building had - I've just checked and it turns out Elayne was right (it had six, Nynaeve thought it had only five). Therefore Nynaeve alone would have had them looking for a five storey building, thus they might well have missed it. So the text provides a clear reason why it is beneficial to have Elayne there. So how I boosted your argument remains unclear, but how I have benefited my own is very clear.

 

If I felt my logic was faulty, I wouldn't stand by it. I see no evidence of you being part of a general consensus, nor would I care if you were. I pointed out the flaw in your logic there, which you ignored. People are no less wrong for being wrong in great numbers.

Alas, it wasn't me who brought up that others had opined here. That was you.

No, you were the one who brought up you being part of a majority view. That is both a logical fallacy and not clearly supported.

 

She didn't take the throne from Rand because it wasn't Rand's to give, it was hers to take. She had to fight for her rights because Rand had abandoned the country, leaving a power vacuum. I have not countered any of my own points, but doubtless if I did, I would do a better job of countering my arguments than you have. Rand was just a caretaker - he did not deny that the throne was lawfully Elayne's. The only problem was how he said it, which gave the impression he was a conqueror handing it to her on a silver platter. That is not the impression he intended to give - at no time did he claim Andor as his own. If it wasn't his, he couldn't give it away.

 

Certainly true all of it. Still, by the time Elayne came back to Andor trying to stake her claim, the realm was already in disarray and headed for an inevitable fall. Perhaps, no one could have prevented it but, the fact remains that Elayne Trakand failed miserably to improve the situation and save her realm.

Except she did improve the situation and save her realm - in KoD she ended the war. So you're condemning her for what? Failing to do what she did? Also bear in mind that when she left for ED, there was no power vacuum, nor could she have predicted one would arise.

How history will judge her; as the ruler who lost Andor to the Shadow, unless Caemlyn can still be saved, which is something none of us will know until we've all read AMoL. But history is a harsh judge and, at this point, that will be Elayne's legacy. My point has always been how Elayne's rule will be perceived by her subjects and how it'll be judged by history. And, to this point, it is what it is.

As you are in no position to say how her rule will be perceived by her subjects or history, you don't have a leg to stand on. It could be she will be seen as a hero for repelling an attack on her capital, for a long and glorious reign, for unifying with Cairhien, for an era of unprecedented peace and prosperity after TG. She might end up being seen as the greatest queen Andor ever had.

 

Monarchy passes instantaneously (hence "the King is dead, long live the King"). She was Queen automatically upon the abdication of her mother. She simply had to get the others to agree to that claim, and that only because a power vacuum formed. Furthermore, Perrin raised his banners in de facto rebellion during Morgase's reign. So he was at fault in this instance.

 

Perrin was not the only one not to acknowledge Elayne as the legimitate ruler of Andor and all rebels (including him if you will) have been dealt with. And I have never said he was not at fault. I only said that he was never the "dangerous rebel" you deemed him, by any means. It's simple: rebel who declares openly and tries to seize the throne is far more dangerous than rebel who declares openly, only for independence from the throne ruling his lands.

Was Perrin a rebel? Yes. Was he dangerous? Yes. Thus he is a dangerous rebel. Even if we accept that there were more dangerous rebels out there, that doesn't make my description of Perrin inaccurate.

 

I've got other interests than WoT.

The same is true of all of us, so that's not much of a boast. I've read over 120 books over this past year, and only one of them was a WoT book. In fact, I've read far more Doctor Who books (and I have more than 400, including spin-offs), so it would be fair to say I was a pretty big DW fan. I've read a number of Star Wars books, though not for a few years. I'm currently reading seven books, including re-reads of A Feast For Crows and The Brothers Karamazov. That might be impressive to some people, but I'm sure there are plenty of people who can eclipse it. I am assisted by a good memory, having been in a number of WoT debates, and various online resources (there is an encyclopaedia, so you can look things up if you so wish - things like character names, and what people have done).

 

Do you not see a problem with a legitimate ruler being offered their own throne? Because I do. It wasn't Rand's to give. The throne of Tear was. Furthermore, you persist in saying Elayne started the civil war, which is blatantly untrue. Others started it. Rand left the country in LoC, fleeing the rebel embassy to go to Cairhien (where he ended up captured by the Tower AS). While he was gone, no-one was in charge. Power vacuum. Others put forward their claims. Elayne asked if Dyelin was willing to take the throne, and she wasn't. So it was Elayne's duty to take the throne, and there was no-one to give it to her, no easy way to get it. She did not weaken her country. She ended the war, and thus unified and strengthened Andor.

 

I have never said that Elayne started a civil war.

That's not true: "So, she goes on to start a civil war to stake her claim, weakening her country in the process."

See how you have twisted and misconstrued my words, only for the sake of argument?

Not really, no.

 

Now, riddle me this kid, if Elayne has strengthened Andor as much as you claim, then why would the Shadow target it, instead of a more unstable nation, riper for invasion?

I'm not a party to the Shadow's strategic planning sessions. All I know is that we see in the books that Elayne ended a civil war, and brought order where there was chaos, began mustering her armies for TG, and in general doing the things a good ruler does.

 

An absurd claim, utterly unsupported by anything. There will be a future, and Elayne would be very stupid to ignore it. It is unlikely the breaking will take the same form as the last one. Furthermore, Rand has also taken steps for the future. I know your other posts have addressed the academies, but I disagree with your assessment. You are wrong to assert they are to preserve knowledge - they are there to make new discoveries. Hence one guy inventing the steam engine. Rand, Elayne, Egwene, and everyone else who bothers, are quite right to make plans past TG, for themselves, for the countries they rule, for the world.

 

No complains about your opinion on my claims, since I happen to feel the exact same way about everything you have stated yourself.

Except my views are backed up by evidence.

 

You are not quoting the books.

True. That doesn't mean that what I am saying is a matter of opinion, it just means I can't be bothered to go and track down verbatim quotes for every last little thing to support my views when you've not asked for them and they shouldn't be necessary. It's a lot of trouble to go to, and I don't bother without good reason. If I have to, I can provide. This is not my personal take, much of the time, an awful lot of what I say is matters of fact. There is a difference between that and opinion, and my opinions tend to be backed up by fact, rather than hollow claims to common sense or a belief that you must have provided evidence, therefore you did, even if there is none to be seen.

 

Example: not once have you provided evidence to support any of your claims, like when you state that Elayne was gone for "just a few hours", when someone here (not me, btw) has already established that we have no idea on how long she was gone and where she may have happened to be during the attack on Andor.

Her business within Cairhien could be concluded within a few hours, and if needed she could be recalled within minutes. That would be a more accurate summation of my position. She arrived, was crowned, and told the Cairhienin to gather their forces to leave for the FoM. Granted, my position might not always have been stated as clearly as it could have been, hence the clarification here. What we saw her do would not take long, and she can be recalled at short notice. Do you dispute any of this? Focussing on side issues while missing the genral thrust, as you do here, does not strengthen your point. The issue is not how many hours she spent in Cairhien, it is was it a bad idea to go? Given the advantages to going, the fact she can be recalled if she has to be, the unlikelihood of her being needed because her capital has been attacked that very night, etc., these are all relevant considerations in deciding whether or not it was a bad idea. You just say it wasn't common sense or good judgement, providing no reasoning, say no ruler would do it, providing no support, and dodge the main points against you.

 

I have never claimed to know anything I've said for a fact

While not everything I say can be taken for fact, there is a difference between facts and opinions, and I use both. Therefore the facts I use can be taken for facts, and the opinions I use can be taken for my opinions, backed up by relevant facts where possible. On the other hand, you might want to review some of your old posts before you reply: "The ruler does not leave her/his post at any given time, till the crisis has passed. And that's a fact." But of course, you're not claiming that fact is something you know for a fact. That fact is just your opinion. And that's a fact. In my opinion.

 

 

She doesn't know that there is a waygate right there, in her own backyard.

I take it you have evidence to support that opinion of yours. As I've already pointed out, the Waygate is thought to be secure, so even if Elayne knows of it it is a non-factor, as it has been guarded against. Also, no-one has yet contested by comments on the deficiencies of launching a full-scale invasion via Waygate.

 

Any rebel to a crown is a dangerous rebel. monarchy is based upon everyone accepting where they are. by Perrin rising up with no consequences (until their meeting) he is the most dangerous kind of rebel, the kind that inspires others to rise up against the queen.

Perrin is not a rebel. TR is not a part of Andor.

I'm sure if you say it enough times it will come true. Until then, I must reiterate what I have said previously, and moratcorlm has already said: Perrin agrees that TR is part of Andor, and raising Manetheren's flag stakes a claim to parts of Andor beyond the TR.