Elayne's Arc

[Suttree]

Actually, the amusing thing here is your interpretation of my words, Alternate. 'cause you seem to have missed my point altogether. IMO, Aviendha's visions are not etched in stone. They could be anything ranging from a warning of potential futures to a mere projection of her own, innermost fears.

 

Now, Rand's schools. Bingo! Why do you think he set them up? Well, precisely so that what little knowledge, science, techhnology and information in general existing in the Randland of the Third Age can be preserved after Tarmon Gai'don. And thas 'cause the world at large could very well be thrown into a Dark Age, after the Last Battle. And this is exactly what I was saying. I never said that the whole world will go "Poof". And frankly, if that's all you got from my words, that makes me very sad for you, indeed.

 

So Rand should be lauded for setting up schools to preserve something post TG but Elayne is making a mistake by trying to plan for a post TG future in Andor?

[Darth Krewl]

Because we havent seen numerous other rulers in Randland do this? Look at ALL of the Borderland nations just to use one example.

 

Good point. Though, in all fairness, this is Elayne's thread, not the Borderlanders. And I've never said that Elayne is the only incompetent ruler in the WoT world, either. I consider Egwene just as bad as Elayne, for instance.

 

Though in all fairness, the reason why the Borderland rulers left their lands is completely different to Elayne's reasons and way more complex, as well. Not defending them. Not attacking Elayne either. Just stating the obvious.

 

But I agree, they made a very stupid mistake. Still, IMO, that's no excuse for Elayne to do what she's done. Should she get a free pass, because other rulers acted rashly, irrationally or plain stupidly? I don't think so.

 

So Rand should be lauded for setting up schools to preserve something post TG but Elayne is making a mistake by trying to plan for a post TG future in Andor?

 

Truth be told, IDK what Rand should be lauded/commended/admired for. Nor did I do that. But what I do know is that his schools are a completely different concept to what both, Elayne and Egwene are doing.

 

Rand is thinking about preserving what all wise people in the history of the world consider true wealth: knowledge. And he's doing it with the sake of all in mind.

 

Elayne is only thinking in terms of securing lands that, could very well be broken and unrecognizable by the end of the Last Battle. She's not even thinking about the common folk, really now, let's be serious about this.

 

Rand is thinking about rebuilding, after the Last Battle.

 

Elayne is thinking about a future where things will stay the same. They won't.

 

These, like Elayne and the Borderland rulers, are two very different things.

[Express]

Ok, trying to take the foot off the emotional throttle. I'm not sure why there's so much back and forth on what Elayne should be doing as to the 'possible' attack. It seems that she would pass that information on to the Bridgette, who's in charge of her entire army. Who, would make neccesary military movements to be prepared.

 

As for the, "Bowl of Winds," she was teamed up with Nynaeve and really when does one leave the side of a partner in an assignment, unless your Mavrick and you really really want Vipor.

 

I thought she should've asked Rand for help during the civil war but I wasn't writing the story. The entire arc helped me to appreciate her character a lot more.

 

Finally, Elayne may be the Queen of Andor but she's not the 'boss'. Egwene is, and she has called Elayne back to the tower. Elayne doesn't have a choice. The attack hasn't started, her military should be prepared, it's time for her to go. She's not abandoning her post. She's following orders. If the attack happened before she left, she would've notified Egwene and stayed put but that's not the way it's written.

 

Oh, and the Two Rivers, somehow Morgase new that Rand's accent was Two Rivers. I think, and yes it's my opinion, that this in itself would show that the Two Rivers is part of Andor. Not sure who's side that helps:):):)!!!

[blazetheearth]

Actually, the amusing thing here is your interpretation of my words, Alternate. 'cause you seem to have missed my point altogether. IMO, Aviendha's visions are not etched in stone. They could be anything ranging from a warning of potential futures to a mere projection of her own, innermost fears.

 

Now, Rand's schools. Bingo! Why do you think he set them up? Well, precisely so that what little knowledge, science, techhnology and information in general existing in the Randland of the Third Age can be preserved after Tarmon Gai'don. And thas 'cause the world at large could very well be thrown into a Dark Age, after the Last Battle. And this is exactly what I was saying. I never said that the whole world will go "Poof". And frankly, if that's all you got from my words, that makes me very sad for you, indeed.

 

So Rand should be lauded for setting up schools to preserve something post TG but Elayne is making a mistake by trying to plan for a post TG future in Andor?

 

It should be noted that there is a huge difference between setting up a couple of schools in separate cities to make sure some knowledge survives and grabbing for power in a different country. Elayne took over the school in Camelyn, but there is nothing on this thread bashing her for that.

Rand was trying to unite the nation against the Shadow in his campaigns, preserve lives and feed the hungry. None of these make him a saint, but comparing her grabbing the Sun Throne to him setting up 2 schools is ludicrous. And I think that taking over the school in Camelyn was a good move on her part, even though it came a cross as selfish at the time (since we have her PoV when she took over the school, we know that she didn't do it for altruistic reasons, instead it came across as "No one else can do something good for the people of Andor, if this school is gonna be here, then I'm gonna be responsible for it , not Rand." i would have rather she took over funding the school and administration of it while leaving it's founding roots intact, but it became clear that's not what she did. it just became another political tool for her.

 

Edit: Blood and bloody ashes! ninja-posted again by Darth Krewl! Good one! And I agree with his comments.

[Suttree]

Because we havent seen numerous other rulers in Randland do this? Look at ALL of the Borderland nations just to use one example.

 

Good point. Though, in all fairness, this is Elayne's thread, not the Borderlanders. And I've never said that Elayne is the only incompetent ruler in the WoT world, either. I consider Egwene just as bad as Elayne, for instance.

 

Though in all fairness, the reason why the Borderland rulers left their lands is completely different to Elayne's reasons and way more complex, as well. Not defending them. Not attacking Elayne either. Just stating the obvious.

 

But I agree, they made a very stupid mistake. Still, IMO, that's no excuse for Elayne to do what she's done. Should she get a free pass, because other rulers acted rashly, irrationally or plain stupidly? I don't think so.

 

So Rand should be lauded for setting up schools to preserve something post TG but Elayne is making a mistake by trying to plan for a post TG future in Andor?

 

Truth be told, IDK what Rand should be lauded/commended/admired for. Nor did I do that. But what I do know is that his schools are a completely different concept to what both, Elayne and Egwene are doing.

 

Rand is thinking about preserving what all wise people in the history of the world consider true wealth: knowledge. And he's doing it with the sake of all in mind.

 

Elayne is only thinking in terms of securing lands that, could very well be broken and unrecognizable by the end of the Last Battle. She's not even thinking about the common folk, really now, let's be serious about this.

 

Rand is thinking about rebuilding, after the Last Battle.

Elayne is thinking about a future where things will stay the same. They won't.

 

These, like Elayne and the Borderland rulers, are two very different things.

 

You truly think that is how Elayne views the situation? I have never been a fan of hers but that is twisting the facts of the story completely around.

 

Also you are right there is a huge difference between her and the Borderland rulers. She can be back in Andor within the hour by gateway.

[Darth Krewl]

It should be noted that there is a huge difference between setting up a couple of schools in separate cities to make sure some knowledge survives and grabbing for power in a different country. Elayne took over the school in Camelyn, but there is nothing on this thread bashing her for that.

Rand was trying to unite the nation against the Shadow in his campaigns, preserve lives and feed the hungry. None of these make him a saint, but comparing her grabbing the Sun Throne to him setting up 2 schools is ludicrous. And I think that taking over the school in Camelyn was a good move on her part, even though it came a cross as selfish at the time (since we have her PoV when she took over the school, we know that she didn't do it for altruistic reasons, instead it came across as "No one else can do something good for the people of Andor, if this school is gonna be here, then I'm gonna be responsible for it , not Rand." i would have rather she took over funding the school and administration of it while leaving it's founding roots intact, but it became clear that's not what she did. it just became another political tool for her.

 

Edit: Blood and bloody ashes! ninja-posted again by Darth Krewl! Good one! And I agree with his comments.

 

LOL!

 

Thanks for the praise, Ishadar, but you're the one who hit it out of the park. I didn't even remember that Elayne had confiscated the school Rand opened in Caemlyn...and for personal glory, to boot, of course. Good point.

[blazetheearth]

 

As for the, "Bowl of Winds," she was teamed up with Nynaeve and really when does one leave the side of a partner in an assignment, unless your Mavrick and you really really want Vipor.

 

 

You mean like when Egwene left both of her 'partners' to go learn from the WO's.

 

Elayne was a tag-a-long on every early adventure, Ebou Dar was the first one she was actually 'sent' to do something, and the entire point with that was that she had other responsibilities that only she could take care of, while (at the time she went, as far as she knew) Nyn could have went with others to find the Bowl.

[Darth Krewl]

Elayne is thinking about a future where things will stay the same. They won't.

 

You truly think that is how Elayne views the situation? I have never been a fan of hers but that is twisting the facts of the story completely around.

 

Also you are right there is a huge difference between her and the Borderland rulers. She can be back in Andor within the hour by gateway.

 

When you seek to secure the rule of, not one but two nations, in the brink of a conflict that could very well sink either of those lands into the ocean or lay them barren and wasted, in a universe where such things are very possible, that's not twisting the facts. It's what I get from her, based on this:

 

 

So far, it's been, the hunt for the Black Ajah (exposing myself in such a stupid, needless way that I got captured and almost gave poor Birgitte a heart-attack). The war to secure my throne, the interrogation of the captured Black Ajah (exposing myself stupidly again and getting stabbed this time, causing poor Birgitte another fit), securing the rights to gateways and dragons (for war, not for the sake of my people...well, perhaps I can protect my people, but I'll become the most powerful ruler in all of the Randland yay!), trying to bully Perrin Aybara into submission (for personal glory and to expand my rule, not for the sake of my people), overlook the coming attack that was warned to me and focusing on outfoxing the Cairhienin nobles, masters at Daes'daemar (again, for personal glory and to expand my, not for the sake of my people)...

 

These are the facts. I'm not twisting anything.

 

Oh, as for being able to be back via gateways, well, now that they're with him, Rand can do that for the Borderlanders at this point in the story as well, I regret to inform you.

[Suttree]

Elayne is thinking about a future where things will stay the same. They won't.

 

You truly think that is how Elayne views the situation? I have never been a fan of hers but that is twisting the facts of the story completely around.

 

Also you are right there is a huge difference between her and the Borderland rulers. She can be back in Andor within the hour by gateway.

 

When you seek to secure the rule of, not one but two nations, in the brink of a conflict that could very well sink either of those lands into the ocean or lay them barren and wasted, in a universe where such things are very possible, that's not twisting the facts. It's what I get from her, based on this:

 

 

So far, it's been, the hunt for the Black Ajah (exposing myself in such a stupid, needless way that I got captured and almost gave poor Birgitte a heart-attack). The war to secure my throne, the interrogation of the captured Black Ajah (exposing myself stupidly again and getting stabbed this time, causing poor Birgitte another fit), securing the rights to gateways and dragons (for war, not for the sake of my people...well, perhaps I can protect my people, but I'll become the most powerful ruler in all of the Randland yay!), trying to bully Perrin Aybara into submission (for personal glory and to expand my rule, not for the sake of my people), overlook the coming attack that was warned to me and focusing on outfoxing the Cairhienin nobles, masters at Daes'daemar (again, for personal glory and to expand my, not for the sake of my people)...

 

These are the facts. I'm not twisting anything.

 

Oh, as for being able to be back via gateways, well, now that they're with him, Rand can do that for the Borderlanders at this point in the story as well, I regret to inform you.

 

Come on mate the Borderlanders had no way of knowing that when they left. There was no reasonable way for them to expect to get back to the blight border in case of emergency. Elayne knew all along she could be right back in Andor. In addition we all know that Elayne is not motivated only by personnel glory. It is stated time and time again how important it is for her to live up the previous Queens of Andor. Read your above paragraph again and think how dramatic your being about the situation...

[Darth Krewl]

Come on mate the Borderlanders had no way of knowing that when they left. There was no reasonable way for them to expect to get back to the blight border in case of emergency. Elayne knew all along she could be right back in Andor. In addition we all know that Elayne is not motivated only by personnel glory. It is stated time and time again how important it is for her to live up the previous Queens of Andor. Read your above paragraph again and think how dramatic your being about the situation...

 

That's exactly my point, Sutt, the Borderlanders had no way of knowing what was gonna happen when they left. They had to confirm if Rand was the real thing and not one more false Dragon, who could've killed them in a fit of mad rage at any moment. I'm sure if they had known that Rand was the legit Dragon Reborn, they would've made the necessary preparations for an impending invasion from the Blight, knowing that Tarmon Gai'don was coming. And, most importantly, I don't think they would've left their countries. In all honesty, I believe you'd agree, wouldn't you?

 

Now, I'm sorry but I respectfully disagree concerning Elayne. In the 13 books we've read so far, I've found nothing that leads me to believe that Elayne is anything but a materialistic, spoiled-rotten brat. Sorry, but I don't see strong values in her, like those I see on Nynaeve or Aviendha, for instance. It's all related to their background and upbringing, I know. But, come on man, of all Rand's lovers, Elayne is the only one who doesn't really seem to care about him dying (as everyone believes necessary) during/after the Last Battle. And all I've seen her care about her children is to secure their rule by getting one of them betrothed to Perrin and Faile's kid.

 

That being said and to her defense, I will admit that when judging Elayne, Egwene or Tuon, for instance, we must keep in mind that these are still teenage girls. Mistakes related to inexperience and overly exuberant youth should be expected. These are after all, no Cadsuanes, Yodas or Dumbledores, for that matter.

 

For the record, I wasn't being dramatic. I was being sarcastic. I have a rather twisted and very singular sense of humor. And she has been giving poor Birgitte the fits, ever since they came back to Caemlyn. You can't deny that lol!

[blazetheearth]

Come on mate the Borderlanders had no way of knowing that when they left. There was no reasonable way for them to expect to get back to the blight border in case of emergency. Elayne knew all along she could be right back in Andor. In addition we all know that Elayne is not motivated only by personnel glory. It is stated time and time again how important it is for her to live up the previous Queens of Andor. Read your above paragraph again and think how dramatic your being about the situation...

 

"Elayne is not motivated only by personnel glory. It is stated time and time again how important it is for her to live up the previous Queens of Andor. "

 

Please explain how "living up to the [image of] the previous Queens of Andor" is NOT seeking personal glory???? Each of the Queens that she compares herself to are known for having achieved personal glory. Whether those Queens sought personal glory is not known or relevant. If they looked for it or if it came to them by accident (the way it did Perrin for example), does not matter because History says they ended up with it, which is why some are known hundreds of years after their death. Trying to equal historically powerful and well know figures IS seeking personal glory. She wants to be remembered along with those Great Queens of Andor, and that is actually very close to the text book definition of "looking for glory".

 

Edit: And again, another ninja-post goes to Darth Krewl! Ok, I know the timestamps don't match for a Ninja-post, but I swear that his post was NOT there when I started my reply, and I do not take 40 minutes to type 2 paragraphs.

[David Selig]

All of the Prophecies point to Tarmon Gai'don as the "end of days" and at the Dragon Reborn bringing another Breaking of the World. At least, to my understanding, the foreshadowing is clear as daylight on a sunny day in Cancun's beaches.

 

It's heavily mplied in ToM that there's a high chance there won't be another Breaking or anything close to such cataclysm during or after the Last Battle and that the political situation in Randland won't change all that much. Avi's visions from Rhuidean showed it. We can argue how truthful they are, but it's still a major hint.

 

From the bits we've seen from the Karaethon cycle, I don't recall any prophesy that states clearly the the world will undergo another Breaking like the last time. It's mostly about the massive political and social changes the dragon will bring, the Dragon conquering and breaking countries, causing division, breaking social bonds, etc. There's one mention that the Dragon's coming will break the world, but it's followed immediately by "tearing apart all ties that bind", so it seems the breaking here is in figurative sense and has already happened with all the political and social changes Rand has brought.

 

Putting that aside, I don't agree with the attitude that since the Last Battle is coming, you shouldn't plan for the future. Of course preparations for the Last Battle take priority, but you should look beyond that, because otherwise you may end up with a victory not much better than a defeat. Even Rand realised this, despite his belief he will die in the Last Battle. That's why he set up the schools. That's why he tried to give the countries the conquered a more stable and better supported rulers who won't be swept aside in a civil war when Rand is gone. That's why he will probably demand the Dragon's peace at Merrilor.

 

In Elayne's case, there's also the Seanchan threat she has to think about. Taking over Cairhien helps with that. It's certainly worth the really minimal risk of being absent from Caemlyn for several hours when she has Traveling available.

[Darth Krewl]

It's heavily mplied in ToM that there's a high chance there won't be another Breaking or anything close to such cataclysm during or after the Last Battle and that the political situation in Randland won't change all that much. Avi's visions from Rhuidean showed it. We can argue how truthful they are, but it's still a major hint.

 

Well, that's why I said "to my understanding". I certainly don't mean to imply that anything is etched in stone. It's just how I understand the WoT. Let's keep in mind that Jordan always said that, while prophecies, foretells, omens and the like are extremely important in WoT, they're only guidelines for the future but, it can be changed. Again, this is according to my understanding. So, Aviendha's visions could be tons of things, from possible futures to her projecting her fears, like I said before.

 

From the bits we've seen from the Karaethon cycle, I don't recall any prophesy that states clearly the the world will undergo another Breaking like the last time. It's mostly about the massive political and social changes the dragon will bring, the Dragon conquering and breaking countries, causing division, breaking social bonds, etc. There's one mention that the Dragon's coming will break the world, but it's followed immediately by "tearing apart all ties that bind", so it seems the breaking here is in figurative sense and has already happened with all the political and social changes Rand has brought.

 

Granted. But then again, I would say that thinking that the Last Battle won't bring about much destruction would be, IMO, naive wishful thinking. My view of the Last Battle is about one of the grimmest, darkest, most somber and ominous that I have seen or heard. Not because I expect the Dark One to win, but because of the price that I believe the Light-siders will have to pay in battle.

 

Otherwise, this series would lack all the seriousness in the world. At least for my taste. Many people certainly disagree w/my theory on Tarmon Gai'don, but like I say to them, what would be the point of telling a story where the "ending" is not as epic, dramatic and spectacular as one would expect it to be?

 

Putting that aside, I don't agree with the attitude that since the Last Battle is coming, you shouldn't plan for the future. Of course preparations for the Last Battle take priority, but you should look beyond that, because otherwise you may end up with a victory not much better than a defeat. Even Rand realised this, despite his belief he will die in the Last Battle. That's why he set up the schools. That's why he tried to give the countries the conquered a more stable and better supported rulers who won't be swept aside in a civil war when Rand is gone. That's why he will probably demand the Dragon's peace at Merrilor.

 

I never said people shouldn't plan for the future. I said people should concentrate on the immediate future, prepare themselves, do their best to survive the hard times ahead, win the battle and then, concern themselves with rebuilding their world. Rand's schools are a complete departure from Elayne's plans for Andor and Caihrien, as well as Egwene's for the White Tower.

 

Rand is trying to preserve knowledge, so that the survivors of Tarmon Gai'don may not fall into another dark age like the one that came after the Breaking. The two young girls are preparing as if the Last Battle was nothing other than a bump on the road, before life carries on as always. At least to my understanding, that is. And I'm not alone when I say that most of these people seem all but oblivious to the fact that, their world won't be changing soon. It is already changing radically.

 

In Elayne's case, there's also the Seanchan threat she has to think about. Taking over Cairhien helps with that. It's certainly worth the really minimal risk of being absent from Caemlyn for several hours when she has Traveling available.

 

One day at a time. One opponent at a time. But, most of all, live to fight another day, said the Art of War, by Sun Tzui. Elayne is clearly no military mastermind. Far from it in fact. But, when faced with two potential threats at once, Sun Tzui also advises that we hold the fort, pull back and strengthen our defenses. Not overextend and spread our forces into new territory, because it will be much harder to defend.

 

That minimal risk would've been fine if nothing had happened. Alas, something did happen. And that'll be Elayne's legacy; the ruler who lost Andor to the Shadow, because she was absent for a few hours. History is one harsh judge. Just ask Lews Therin Telamon.

[Suttree]

Come on mate the Borderlanders had no way of knowing that when they left. There was no reasonable way for them to expect to get back to the blight border in case of emergency. Elayne knew all along she could be right back in Andor. In addition we all know that Elayne is not motivated only by personnel glory. It is stated time and time again how important it is for her to live up the previous Queens of Andor. Read your above paragraph again and think how dramatic your being about the situation...

 

"Elayne is not motivated only by personnel glory. It is stated time and time again how important it is for her to live up the previous Queens of Andor. "

 

Please explain how "living up to the [image of] the previous Queens of Andor" is NOT seeking personal glory???? Each of the Queens that she compares herself to are known for having achieved personal glory. Whether those Queens sought personal glory is not known or relevant. If they looked for it or if it came to them by accident (the way it did Perrin for example), does not matter because History says they ended up with it, which is why some are known hundreds of years after their death. Trying to equal historically powerful and well know figures IS seeking personal glory. She wants to be remembered along with those Great Queens of Andor, and that is actually very close to the text book definition of "looking for glory".

 

Edit: And again, another ninja-post goes to Darth Krewl! Ok, I know the timestamps don't match for a Ninja-post, but I swear that his post was NOT there when I started my reply, and I do not take 40 minutes to type 2 paragraphs.

 

 

Glory and a place in history that comes from being a good ruler are very different things than someone who is only selfishly motivated by "seeking" personnel glory.

WH Ch10

"From large, colored windows set in the arched ceiling high overhead, the queens who had founded Andor stared down, their images alternating with the White Lion and scenes of the battles they had fought to build Andor from a single city in Artur Hawkwing’s shattering empire into that nation. Many lands that had come out of the War of the Hundred Years no longer existed, yet Andor had survived the thousand years since and prospered. Sometimes Elayne felt those images judging her, weighing her worth to follow in their footsteps."

 

“I don’t claim I will be as great as you, but I will not make you ashamed, either. I will be a good queen.”

 

In these quotes it is obvious she doesn't want to be remembered as one of them for the glory. She wants to live up to them by being a good ruler to her people. If anyone in the entire WOT universe embodies the traditional European definition of nobility both good and bad it is Elayne Trakand. She feels the weight of responsibility to her people and to her ancestors that have gone before. It is the White Lion of Andor that gets all the glory by prospering for over a thousand years not the individual queens. If you are looking for someone interested only in personnel glory look to Mierin Eronaile.

[f3llyn]

It's heavily mplied in ToM that there's a high chance there won't be another Breaking or anything close to such cataclysm during or after the Last Battle and that the political situation in Randland won't change all that much. Avi's visions from Rhuidean showed it. We can argue how truthful they are, but it's still a major hint.

It's always been my thought that the second breaking that Rand would be causing would be more figurative than literal. Similar to the aiel prophecy "he'll take them back and break them".

 

It doesn't mean that there will be mass earthquakes and wide scale destruction. It's more along the lines of how men and women will deal with each other and it will change massively after TG. The Aes Sedai who support Rand going against the Aes Sedai who support Egwene and things like that.

[Durinax]

It's heavily mplied in ToM that there's a high chance there won't be another Breaking or anything close to such cataclysm during or after the Last Battle and that the political situation in Randland won't change all that much. Avi's visions from Rhuidean showed it. We can argue how truthful they are, but it's still a major hint.

It's always been my thought that the second breaking that Rand would be causing would be more figurative than literal. Similar to how to the aiel's "he'll take them back and break them" prophecy.

 

It doesn't mean that there will be mass earthquakes and wide scale destruction. It's more along the lines of how men and women will deal with each other and it will change massively after TG. The Aes Sedai going against the Aes Sedai who support Egwene and things like that.

a social breaking instead of a physical breaking. . . I like that, althoguh I think the the nations of the land will be shattered beyond simple repair

[Manjunathan]

Anyone else think that Elayne and Egwene are on collision course?

The Amyrlin is defenitely not going to like Elayne tying the Kin to Andor, especially since she plans it to be an institution where Aes Sedai can retire into. Elayne's meddling is going to affect White Tower's neutrality.

And on her meeting with Perrin, I thought it went well for both sides.

[blazetheearth]

 

Glory and a place in history that comes from being a good ruler are very different things than someone who is only selfishly motivated by "seeking" personnel glory.

WH Ch10

"From large, colored windows set in the arched ceiling high overhead, the queens who had founded Andor stared down, their images alternating with the White Lion and scenes of the battles they had fought to build Andor from a single city in Artur Hawkwing’s shattering empire into that nation. Many lands that had come out of the War of the Hundred Years no longer existed, yet Andor had survived the thousand years since and prospered. Sometimes Elayne felt those images judging her, weighing her worth to follow in their footsteps."

 

“I don’t claim I will be as great as you, but I will not make you ashamed, either. I will be a good queen.”

 

In these quotes it is obvious she doesn't want to be remembered as one of them for the glory. She wants to live up to them by being a good ruler to her people. If anyone in the entire WOT universe embodies the traditional European definition of nobility both good and bad it is Elayne Trakand. She feels the weight of responsibility to her people and to her ancestors that have gone before. It is the White Lion of Andor that gets all the glory by prospering for over a thousand years not the individual queens. If you are looking for someone interested only in personnel glory look to Mierin Eronaile.

 

I understand how you read that statement to mean she's not seeking glory (I even think that your interpretation is the one intended by RJ, I just think his execution of the sentence was just a little off the mark), but let's look a little closer. 'I don't claim that I will be as great as you' - pretty well indicates that she is trying to be as great as them, but that she doesn't know it she can reach their greatness and so wont claim that the will reach it. If she weren't trying to match them, then the first half (which you bolded) wouldn't be necessary at all to convey the feeling of just trying to be the best queen possible for her people (re:"I will not make you ashamed of me. I will be a good queen"). But with the first part in place, I cannot see it as anything but "trying" = "seeking" in this context. If she had no thought of matching the past QoA, I would agree with you entirely. For example, if she had simply said, "I may not perform my duties as well as you did, but I will not make you ashamed, either. I will be a good queen." This example points to her looking at the duties of a queen, and not the greatness of the QoA, and I wouldn't think of her as seeking/trying to match the other QoA's in being great.

 

I hope I explained the difference well enough, because to me those two sentences go straight to the heart of the issue. Elayne brought up the greatness of the previous Queens, not their sense of duty. And while you may think that both sentences mean the same (that she sought to do her duty), I cannot agree. I think that, the fact she mentions how great they were, is very indicative of her thinking overall. I am not trying to change anyone's mind about it, I know people's own interpretations of these books are very dear to them, just to explain my rationale and to be understood, not necessarily to be agreed with, just understood.

[Darth Krewl]

Anyone else think that Elayne and Egwene are on collision course?

The Amyrlin is defenitely not going to like Elayne tying the Kin to Andor, especially since she plans it to be an institution where Aes Sedai can retire into. Elayne's meddling is going to affect White Tower's neutrality.

And on her meeting with Perrin, I thought it went well for both sides.

 

Good point. These two characters are nearly identical mirror images of each other (young, brash, ambitious, arrogant, inexperienced while in positions of great power and, most importantly, inadvertently or unintentionally hindering all of their friends and allies).

 

But the dominating topic to be discussed during the upcoming, all-important reunion in the Fields of Merrilor is the breaking of the seals and Tarmon Gai'don in general. Next to this, internal affairs concerning any nation/institution involved in the talks (such as the fate of a handful of women who are not all that important to begin with and have nothing to do with the central topics to be discussed) is completely irrelevant, IMO. Besides, I don't think E & E will even have enough time to get to and discuss this matter. Especially when Elayne gets word on the attack on Caemlyn.

 

So, IMO, if Elayne does have enough time to discuss anything before receiving the terrible news, the main issue that could come between these two characters will be Elayne's allegiances. Her "professional" allegiance to the Tower as Aes Sedai, her personal allegiance to Rand (though it wouldn't surprise me to see her betray the man she claims to love by siding with Egwene at the last minute, truth be told) and last but not least, her allegiance to her, not one but two, countries, as their ruler.

[anotherfingolfin]

So, IMO, if Elayne does have enough time to discuss anything before receiving the terrible news, the main issue that could come between these two characters will be Elayne's allegiances. Her "professional" allegiance to the Tower as Aes Sedai, her personal allegiance to Rand (though it wouldn't surprise me to see her betray the man she claims to love by siding with Egwene at the last minute, truth be told) and last but not least, her allegiance to her, not one but two, countries, as their ruler.

 

I dunno, I would hope that it won't come down to 'allegience.' Like maybe she might give the whole issue at hand at least a little thought, and consider the credibility of the two opposing views and of those offering them, with regards to the issue at hand. You know, informed, thought out decision based on merit, not a 'who's more my friend?' reaction.

[capuga]

One day at a time. One opponent at a time. But, most of all, live to fight another day, said the Art of War, by Sun Tzui. Elayne is clearly no military mastermind. Far from it in fact. But, when faced with two potential threats at once, Sun Tzui also advises that we hold the fort, pull back and strengthen our defenses. Not overextend and spread our forces into new territory, because it will be much harder to defend.

 

That minimal risk would've been fine if nothing had happened. Alas, something did happen. And that'll be Elayne's legacy; the ruler who lost Andor to the Shadow, because she was absent for a few hours. History is one harsh judge. Just ask Lews Therin Telamon.

 

We'll see how the timeline plays out but I believe that Andor is attacked while she is at the Fields of Merrilor and not while she was in Cairhien. So her traveling to Cairhien cost her nothing and gained her powerful resources. Should rulers in times of war never travel to have discussions with allies or to secure new alliances? And keep in mind that at this point Andor is not even at war. There is just a possible threat at some unknowable future time. Would Elayne really be doing her country a better service and being a better ruler by just sitting around and not accomplishing anything while waiting for some potential attack to happen? Does Elayne securing the resources of a strong neighboring country not make her ability to counter any threat that much stronger? Should she have not gone to the FoM to participate in this historic event that might determine whether or not the world is destroyed in a matter of days? I really don't see a reason to criticize Elayne for Traveling to Cairhien and taking control there.

[Darth Krewl]

I dunno, I would hope that it won't come down to 'allegience.' Like maybe she might give the whole issue at hand at least a little thought, and consider the credibility of the two opposing views and of those offering them, with regards to the issue at hand. You know, informed, thought out decision based on merit, not a 'who's more my friend?' reaction.

 

Agreed. Elayne's decisions must be made based on what she considers best for all and not her personal interests or based on her many allegiances. Her choices must be all detached, impersonal and impartial decisions. But, since this is Elayne we're talking about and since she's always been rash and impulsive...

 

Now, again, let's also keep in mind that, unlike all other characters, who have just one allegiance, Elayne is split in three: the Dragon Reborn (not 'cause of personal reasons, but 'cause all must rally around him for the Last Battle), the two kingdoms under her rule now and her allegiance to the Tower as an Aes Sedai.

 

Come think of it, I wouldn't want to be in her shoes, the poor thing. Alas, she will have to make her stance perfectly clear, regardless on who might take exception to it. Because someone (Rand or Egwene) will be greatly displeased.

[Darth Krewl]

We'll see how the timeline plays out but I believe that Andor is attacked while she is at the Fields of Merrilor and not while she was in Cairhien.

 

I hear you and I totally agree with you. But, I wasn't the one who said that. It was David Selig who claims that Elayne was gone from Caemlyn for "several hours", as the quote below clearly indicates:

 

 

 

In Elayne's case, there's also the Seanchan threat she has to think about. Taking over Cairhien helps with that. It's certainly worth the really minimal risk of being absent from Caemlyn for several hours when she has Traveling available.

I don't claim to know where she was at the time of the attack nor for how long. I was just replying to the quote above. So, please, don't pin that on me. I'd never dare claim such things with such authority. I'd never dare claim to know how long Elayne was gone or where she happened to be at that time, unless it was included in the book.

 

 

 

So her traveling to Cairhien cost her nothing and gained her powerful resources. Should rulers in times of war never travel to have discussions with allies or to secure new alliances? And keep in mind that at this point Andor is not even at war. There is just a possible threat at some unknowable future time.

 

Not when your rule is under serious threat of attack, you don't go around on official visits. You stay on your post and hold the fort, till after the crisis has passed. I admit there was no fixed date on the attack (usually, these things are not announced, obviously) but, you don't leave your post immediately after receiving warning. You take a little time for the dust to settle, at least, before embarking on any kind of trip. And, clearly, Elayne didn't do that.

 

Would Elayne really be doing her country a better service and being a better ruler by just sitting around and not accomplishing anything while waiting for some potential attack to happen? Does Elayne securing the resources of a strong neighboring country not make her ability to counter any threat that much stronger? Should she have not gone to the FoM to participate in this historic event that might determine whether or not the world is destroyed in a matter of days? I really don't see a reason to criticize Elayne for Traveling to Cairhien and taking control there.

 

Answer to question 1.

She wouldn't be sitting around idly. As Barid Bel Medar put it very wisely on this thread, already, Elayne would've been brainstorming with her military advisors and spies, analyzing her strengths and weaknesses, gathering intel on potential enemy moves and coming up with potential defensive and protective measures to deal with the problem. Who knows? Had she done this, maybe she would've even found the waygate at Caemlyn and done something to secure it. Not saying that would be 100% the case, but by going away instead of staying in place and conducting thorough investigation, analysis and deduction, she certainly compromised her cause much more than helped it. Can't do anything to solve a problem, when we're not there to take matters into our own hands. Now can we?

 

Answer to question 2.

Not at that point, because everything in the universe is a process and every process takes time. Thinking that the Cairhienin nobles would've jumped eagerly at the chance of sending their troops to die at Andor (thus weakening their own country in the process) before treaties, agreements and other papers were written, approved and signed is, IMO, not only naive wishful thinking but a complete ignorance on how alliances between countries work.

 

Question 3.

Not once have I questioned Elayne's participation in the Fields of Merrilor. Quite the contrary, in fact. If you read all of the most recent posts carefully, you'll see that I've been pretty much about the only poster here who has been standing up for the importance of Tarmon Gai'don as the biggest event that should be on everyone's minds all across the Randlands. So, I obviously understand the relevance that attending that gathering represents.

 

What I have questioned all the time is Elayne's departure into Cairhien, which IMO, could have waited, because other priorities (such as securing Andor to the best of her abilities, in order to counter the threat or attending the gathering at the FoM, for instance) should have taken precedence over her taking the Sun Throne.

 

So, forgive me for disagreeing, but I find every reason to criticize Elayne for leaving her post at a time of very serious and dire crisis in Andor. Perhaps you should've read the previous posts, before misquoting and misinterpreting me, 'cause it would seem clear that you are not even certain of where I stand on this whole thing. I hope this makes it clear.

[Durinax]

Answer to question 2.

Not at that point, because everything in the universe is a process and every process takes time. Thinking that the Cairhienin nobles would've jumped eagerly at the chance of sending their troops to die at Andor (thus weakening their own country in the process) before treaties, agreements and other papers were written, approved and signed is, IMO, not only naive wishful thinking but a complete ignorance on how alliances between countries work.

it isnt an alliance, its close to an absolute monarchy. The nobles wouldnt be happy with it nor would the commoners, but I think the nobles are too scared fo rand to even think of fighting elayne or dragging her down. So they have virtually no say in the manner. Not to mention she could pass it off as tying the two nations closer together, the other nobles greed will take care of the rest.

 

Who knows? Had she done this, maybe she would've even found the waygate at Caemlyn and done something to secure it.

unless she was searching every basement they wouldnt have found it.

 

Mark Grayson, on 03 December 2010 - 12:30 PM, said:

 

So her traveling to Cairhien cost her nothing and gained her powerful resources. Should rulers in times of war never travel to have discussions with allies or to secure new alliances? And keep in mind that at this point Andor is not even at war. There is just a possible threat at some unknowable future time.

 

Not when your rule is under serious threat of attack, you don't go around on official visits. You stay on your post and hold the fort, till after the crisis has passed. I admit there was no fixed date on the attack (usually, these things are not announced, obviously) but, you don't leave your post immediately after receiving warning. You take a little time for the dust to settle, at least, before embarking on any kind of trip. And, clearly, Elayne didn't do that.

actually leaving the country was likely the best thing she could have done. The shadowspawn army would have struck straight for the castle to destroy the 'brain' of the city. By leaving the country she still has a legitimate government even if caemlyn gets burnt to the ground and everyone in the city dies. It is basically the same situation when during WW2 the Dutch government fled the government. It allows the people somethign to rally around, where if she died and lost caemlyn then the people of andor would be left in shambles and the nobles might not be able to rally the people sufficiently

[anotherfingolfin]

I dunno, I would hope that it won't come down to 'allegience.' Like maybe she might give the whole issue at hand at least a little thought, and consider the credibility of the two opposing views and of those offering them, with regards to the issue at hand. You know, informed, thought out decision based on merit, not a 'who's more my friend?' reaction.

 

Agreed. Elayne's decisions must be made based on what she considers best for all and not her personal interests or based on her many allegiances. Her choices must be all detached, impersonal and impartial decisions. But, since this is Elayne we're talking about and since she's always been rash and impulsive...

 

Now, again, let's also keep in mind that, unlike all other characters, who have just one allegiance, Elayne is split in three: the Dragon Reborn (not 'cause of personal reasons, but 'cause all must rally around him for the Last Battle), the two kingdoms under her rule now and her allegiance to the Tower as an Aes Sedai.

 

Come think of it, I wouldn't want to be in her shoes, the poor thing. Alas, she will have to make her stance perfectly clear, regardless on who might take exception to it. Because someone (Rand or Egwene) will be greatly displeased.

 

The way I see it, if you've gotta screw someone close over regardless, then at least make the best/most correct decision in the process of doing so!